Scarlets v Ulster 12th September 2015 15:00 Parc y Scarlets

First topic message reminder :

Scarlets have won their last five Guinness PRO12 fixtures since Edinburgh won at Parc y Scarlets on 28th March.

This also represents their only home defeat in the tournament since Boxing Day 2013.

Ulster ended a three game winless streak in the Guinness PRO12 with their 28-6 victory over the Ospreys in Belfast on Friday. The Ulstermen have won three of their last six away games in the tournament.

Scarlets have won just one of their last eight encounters with Ulster in the PRO12: 17-9 in Llanelli on 2 November 2013. Overall the Ulstermen have a won 2, drawn 2, lost 5 record in all competitions at Parc y Scarlets.

At Parc y Scarlets, 3pm.

Referee: Andrew Brace (IRFU, 2nd competition game)
Assistant Referees: Neil Hennessy, Justin Williams (both WRU)
Citing Commissioner: Aurwel Morgan (WRU)
TMO: J Mason (WRU)

Live on Sky Sports
Read more at http://www.pro12rugby.com/matchcentre/17800.php#Ai2TBfB6KdSd17AW.99

Do we have any doubt that Peter Fitzgibbon is an IRFU employee?

http://www.irishrugby.ie/playingthegame/refereesandlaws/becoming_a_referee.php

PhilBB wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

you said only a few moments ago that nobody gives them money.

Do you think a lot of us here don't know about Dual/Central contracts? .... Regional players (private clubs) subsidised by WRU (Union) and nobody is a colleague in these relationships?

WRU pays Refs and pays portions of Player wages.  Vested Interest at work - and active (business centric) desire for regions to succeed to make investment pay for itself.

Sure, if you'd like to pull a link between paying 60% of 12 players salaries and having a 'vested interest' then I'll agree with you. However, when you hold that opinion it naturally follows that owning four teams, employing most (if not all) of the players AND employing the referees is just as unhealthy but on a hugely more significant scale.

So, all in all, you've just proven how unhealthy it is for the league for the Unions to employ players and referees, thus proving my point.

Thanks for that.

Phil... you can say as much as you like about how unhealthy for the league it is.  Your boys (and since...not before.... since the shenanigans with Lewis, so this would be a Davies sanctioned idea...) have decided to run with a few watered down ideas from IRFU.  Run with it, not reject it as unhealthy.  They've seen how healthy it's proven to be.

You can't taunt when a similar (and I'm sure to be expanded as Wales seeks to hold onto more and more of their promising young players) operation is going on in your own backyard.  You lose the force of the moral authority.

Wales are now trying to mimic the Irish model and have seen the success of the Irish model to date - not failure of it.

IRFU employ players and ref and own Provinces.  No look of shame from me.  Look of pride.  Long may it continue.  Hopefully it'll keep increasing the popularity and success of Irish rugby into the future.

SecretFly wrote:
Phil... you can say as much as you like about how unhealthy for the league it is.  Your boys (and since...not before.... since the shenanigans with Lewis, so this would be a Davies sanctioned idea...) have decided to run with a few watered down ideas from IRFU.  Run with it, not reject it as unhealthy.  They've seen how healthy it's proven to be.

You can't taunt when a similar (and I'm sure to be expanded as Wales seeks to hold onto more and more of their promising young players) operation is going on in your own backyard.  You lose the force of the moral authority.

Wales are now trying to mimic the Irish model and have seen the success of the Irish model to date - not failure of it.

IRFU employ players and ref and own Provinces.  No look of shame from me.  Look of pride.  Long may it continue.  Hopefully it'll keep increasing the popularity and success of Irish rugby into the future.

Bloody hell, what an odd approach to logic. You're claiming that I, an individual, cannot note how unhealthy it is for one organisation to own four teams, employ nigh on all players AND employ referees simply because some clown at the WRU (and NDCs were a Lewis idea in his last RSA, by the way, so you've got the timing very wrong in your answer) thinks paying 60% of wages is ok.

I am not the WRU. I have my own mind. Unlike seemingly all of the Irish contributors on here, I have no interest in blindly supporting what the Union of my nation decides to do. I find that to be an approach of a moron.

I understand the pride you guys feel towards this as it has worked (past tense) for a decade or so. For you. For your league partners? Not much so, but what would you care?

PhilBB wrote:
Bloody hell, what an odd approach to logic. You're claiming that I, an individual, cannot note how unhealthy it is for one organisation to own four teams, employ nigh on all players AND employ referees simply because some clown at the WRU (and NDCs were a Lewis idea in his last RSA, by the way, so you've got the timing very wrong in your answer) thinks paying 60% of wages is ok.

I am not the WRU. I have my own mind. Unlike seemingly all of the Irish contributors on here, I have no interest in blindly supporting what the Union of my nation decides to do. I find that to be an approach of a moron.

I understand the pride you guys feel towards this as it has worked (past tense) for a decade or so. For you. For your league partners? Not much so, but what would you care?

I think pretty much every Irish poster at some point on these forums has shown frustration at the IRFU from their handling of player minutes, NIQ signings, injury jokers etc but what we do have is a realistic approach and the knowledge that things can never be perfect, along with a trust that those in charge actually know better than us even though sometimes we like to make out otherwise.

Im not sure how the IRFUs setup has hindered the Welsh, Scottish and Italians? Especially considering the SRU have an almost identical setup and the Welsh have tried to replicate elements of it. Maybe its because the union and provinces always seem to be a homogenous group singing of the one hymn sheet, maybe that's just because like grownups they resolve their differences in private, you can look at the evolution of the NIQ rules to see that.

marty2086 wrote:

I think pretty much every Irish poster at some point on these forums has shown frustration at the IRFU from their handling of player minutes, NIQ signings, injury jokers etc but what we do have is a realistic approach and the knowledge that things can never be perfect, along with a trust that those in charge actually know better than us even though sometimes we like to make out otherwise.

Im not sure how the IRFUs setup has hindered the Welsh, Scottish and Italians? Especially considering the SRU have an almost identical setup and the Welsh have tried to replicate elements of it. Maybe its because the union and provinces always seem to be a homogenous group singing of the one hymn sheet, maybe that's just because like grownups they resolve their differences in private, you can look at the evolution of the NIQ rules to see that.

You cannot resolve differences in private when there is only one master. The 'Branches' have no power. Let's be honest here and not try to pain the picture of four independent entities who can negotiate with the IRFU.

The blindness of 'trust' is the issue here. The HEC debacle should have shown many in Ireland how the Blazer approach is out of sync with modern professional rugby. Even the SRU understood that.

My point on 'league partners' was that the PrO'12 has been a complete disaster for rugby in Wales.

PhilBB wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
Phil... you can say as much as you like about how unhealthy for the league it is.  Your boys (and since...not before.... since the shenanigans with Lewis, so this would be a Davies sanctioned idea...) have decided to run with a few watered down ideas from IRFU.  Run with it, not reject it as unhealthy.  They've seen how healthy it's proven to be.

You can't taunt when a similar (and I'm sure to be expanded as Wales seeks to hold onto more and more of their promising young players) operation is going on in your own backyard.  You lose the force of the moral authority.

Wales are now trying to mimic the Irish model and have seen the success of the Irish model to date - not failure of it.

IRFU employ players and ref and own Provinces.  No look of shame from me.  Look of pride.  Long may it continue.  Hopefully it'll keep increasing the popularity and success of Irish rugby into the future.

Bloody hell, what an odd approach to logic. You're claiming that I, an individual, cannot note how unhealthy it is for one organisation to own four teams, employ nigh on all players AND employ referees simply because some clown at the WRU (and NDCs were a Lewis idea in his last RSA, by the way, so you've got the timing very wrong in your answer) thinks paying 60% of wages is ok.

I am not the WRU. I have my own mind. Unlike seemingly all of the Irish contributors on here, I have no interest in blindly supporting what the Union of my nation decides to do. I find that to be an approach of a moron.

I understand the pride you guys feel towards this as it has worked (past tense) for a decade or so. For you. For your league partners? Not much so, but what would you care?

If you want to debate logic with me - an individual - you'll want to improve your aim and practice more.

You - as an individual - can think what you like about our system, you've given vent to if often enough here since you turned up recently.  We all know what you think.
But if you want to debate the issue logically then you stand still and take the logical tap back in your direction (WRU).  None of us are paid by IRFU, doesn't stop you throwing your stones.  Sit still, don't moan and we'll target our stones your way.
This brings us back to the other thread - and your affected bewilderment.  "These taunts and accusations are directed at you guys and your IRFU!!!  Stop bringing Davies, Lewis, WRU and Regions into it!!!!!" Get it now? You should if you're as adept at logic as you claim to be.

Meanwhile, back in the real world.  Nope, the IRFU Irish system is Not unhealthy - that is merely your opinion.  You are entitled to your opinion but we're not all obligated to share it.
No, it isn't unhealthy - it's a proven successful model for this Nation - we're not Wales, we're not obligated to follow the Welsh, French or English way.

It's our way and the WRU are trying to begin to mimic it.  It's proven a success.  We don't blindly follow; to do that would be to give in to outside nosy interference from RFU or WRU or PRL or your Regional Organisation.  Mind your own businesses, would the natural response.  
Yes, by all means keep coming here to moan and groan about the unfairness of it all. Write as many threads as you all like.
But when push comes to shove, either change your system to better compete, leave the Pro12 in another huff of red mist and join an Anglo/Welsh league or simply mind your own business.  There are a few choices there.

Well if you were as informed as you like to make yourself out to be then you would know better regarding the IRFU and the provinces

The Pro12 has yet to prove fruitful for the regions because they have for the most part had no coherent long term strategy, also not helped by their counterparts having established teams they could use. The setting up of the regions was a weight around their necks.

Now we see Ospreys and Scarlets not just producing top talents on a regular basis that are on par with or have the potential to be the best in the world. Dragons are also showing signs of growth and improvement.

The next few seasons are huge for the league and the regions

marty2086 wrote:

The Pro12 has yet to prove fruitful for the regions

Despite winning over a third of the championship titles so far?

SecretFly wrote:

If you want to debate logic with me - an individual - you'll want to improve your aim and practice more.

You - as an individual - can think what you like about our system, you've given vent to if often enough here since you turned up recently.  We all know what you think.
But if you want to debate the issue logically then you stand still and take the logical tap back in your direction (WRU).  None of us are paid by IRFU, doesn't stop you throwing your stones.  Sit still, don't moan and we'll target our stones your way.
This brings us back to the other thread - and your affected bewilderment.  "These taunts and accusations are directed at you guys and your IRFU!!!  Stop bringing Davies, Lewis, WRU and Regions into it!!!!!" Get it now? You should if you're as adept at logic as you claim to be.

Meanwhile, back in the real world.  Nope, the IRFU Irish system is Not unhealthy - that is merely your opinion.  You are entitled to your opinion but we're not all obligated to share it.
No, it isn't unhealthy - it's a proven successful model for this Nation - we're not Wales, we're not obligated to follow the Welsh, French or English way.

It's our way and the WRU are trying to begin to mimic it.  It's proven a success.  We don't blindly follow; to do that would be to give in to outside nosy interference from RFU or WRU or PRL or your Regional Organisation.  Mind your own businesses, would the natural response.  
Yes, by all means keep coming here to moan and groan about the unfairness of it all.  Write as many threads as you all like.
But when push comes to shove, either change your system to better compete, leave the Pro12 in another huff of red mist and join an Anglo/Welsh league or simply mind your own business.  There are a few choices there.

There's that logic again - a Welshman cannot disagree with the Irish system if somebody at the WRU wants to copy a tiny bit of it. If that is your honest mindset then I cannot debate logic with you, because you're illogical.

Sure, the Irish system has been successful (to a degree) for Ireland. Past tense. When the Irish could outspend others their domestic teams won European Cups. Now that they can no longer outspend others, they are not so successful. Funny that. And, as for International success, a Grand Slam was finally won against fit opposition. But that's just one Grand Slam.

The Irish system is unhealthy IF (now please do try to understand the context here) the PrO'12 is to become a healthy league. If the Irish system is more important than the PrO'12 being healthy then so be it. That's fine.

You're right on the choices and you've painted the picture well. You lot won't change, at all, so you'll get left behind. As I wrote earlier, if the ERC debacle hasn't taught Irish rugby fans that then there is a big wake up call coming.

marty2086 wrote:Well if you were as informed as you like to make yourself out to be then you would know better regarding the IRFU and the provinces

The Pro12 has yet to prove fruitful for the regions because they have for the most part had no coherent long term strategy, also not helped by their counterparts having established teams they could use. The setting up of the regions was a weight around their necks.

Now we see Ospreys and Scarlets not just producing top talents on a regular basis that are on par with or have the potential to be the best in the world. Dragons are also showing signs of growth and improvement.

The next few seasons are huge for the league and the regions

I've proven myself to be better informed regarding the IRFU and the Provinces than you and your Irish rugby following friends here, marty.

The PrO'12 hasn't been 'fruitful'? What an odd comment when you consider who has won it.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

The Pro12 has yet to prove fruitful for the regions

Despite winning over a third of the championship titles so far?

Fair play to marty, that's as odd a comment on his claim of Government money being used to redevelop the Arms Park (something he is still yet to explain).

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

The Pro12 has yet to prove fruitful for the regions

Despite winning over a third of the championship titles so far?

Have they sustained that success? Or translated it into Europe? No, they haven't and you are the one that's complaining about it not working for the regions now your saying their successful so your contradicting yourself now?

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Well if you were as informed as you like to make yourself out to be then you would know better regarding the IRFU and the provinces

The Pro12 has yet to prove fruitful for the regions because they have for the most part had no coherent long term strategy, also not helped by their counterparts having established teams they could use. The setting up of the regions was a weight around their necks.

Now we see Ospreys and Scarlets not just producing top talents on a regular basis that are on par with or have the potential to be the best in the world. Dragons are also showing signs of growth and improvement.

The next few seasons are huge for the league and the regions

I've proven myself to be better informed regarding the IRFU and the Provinces than you and your Irish rugby following friends here, marty.

The PrO'12 hasn't been 'fruitful'? What an odd comment when you consider who has won it.

No you haven't proven yourself to be informed, you've proven you can claim vague evidence as conclusive, that's a bit different from being informed

marty2086 wrote:Have they sustained that success? Or translated it into Europe? No, they haven't and you are the one that's complaining about it not working for the regions now your saying their successful so your contradicting yourself now?

Most of those titles were won because the Irish provinces were treating the league as a development tool.

marty2086 wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

The Pro12 has yet to prove fruitful for the regions

Despite winning over a third of the championship titles so far?

Have they sustained that success? Or translated it into Europe? No, they haven't and you are the one that's complaining about it not working for the regions now your saying their successful so your contradicting yourself now?

There you go. A perfect example of the marty switch.

You write nonsense on one claim, get pulled up on it, but rather than admit that fact you desperately try to sidestep off into some other direction. Why bother, marty? It's there for all to see!

The PrO'12 doesn't work, for sure, but 'prove fruitful' can only be interpreted as chunky did. Be honest now.

marty2086 wrote:

No you haven't proven yourself to be informed, you've proven you can claim vague evidence as conclusive, that's a bit different from being informed

Let's review your claims on who employs the players, shall we?

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

The Pro12 has yet to prove fruitful for the regions

Despite winning over a third of the championship titles so far?

Have they sustained that success? Or translated it into Europe? No, they haven't and you are the one that's complaining about it not working for the regions now your saying their successful so your contradicting yourself now?

There you go. A perfect example of the marty switch.

You write nonsense on one claim, get pulled up on it, but rather than admit that fact you desperately try to sidestep off into some other direction. Why bother, marty? It's there for all to see!

The PrO'12 doesn't work, for sure, but 'prove fruitful' can only be interpreted as chunky did. Be honest now.

I love your mind reading skills, lets see if you can guess what Im thinking now!

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

The Pro12 has yet to prove fruitful for the regions

Despite winning over a third of the championship titles so far?

Have they sustained that success? Or translated it into Europe? No, they haven't and you are the one that's complaining about it not working for the regions now your saying their successful so your contradicting yourself now?

There you go. A perfect example of the marty switch.

You write nonsense on one claim, get pulled up on it, but rather than admit that fact you desperately try to sidestep off into some other direction. Why bother, marty? It's there for all to see!

The PrO'12 doesn't work, for sure, but 'prove fruitful' can only be interpreted as chunky did. Be honest now.

I love your mind reading skills, lets see if you can guess what Im thinking now!

It's not mind reading to see what's written down under your log in.

Are you thinking 'oh no, I must evade answering that question about how I claimed that the Arms Park was redeveloped using Government funds'?

PhilBB wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

If you want to debate logic with me - an individual - you'll want to improve your aim and practice more.

You - as an individual - can think what you like about our system, you've given vent to if often enough here since you turned up recently.  We all know what you think.
But if you want to debate the issue logically then you stand still and take the logical tap back in your direction (WRU).  None of us are paid by IRFU, doesn't stop you throwing your stones.  Sit still, don't moan and we'll target our stones your way.
This brings us back to the other thread - and your affected bewilderment.  "These taunts and accusations are directed at you guys and your IRFU!!!  Stop bringing Davies, Lewis, WRU and Regions into it!!!!!" Get it now? You should if you're as adept at logic as you claim to be.

Meanwhile, back in the real world.  Nope, the IRFU Irish system is Not unhealthy - that is merely your opinion.  You are entitled to your opinion but we're not all obligated to share it.
No, it isn't unhealthy - it's a proven successful model for this Nation - we're not Wales, we're not obligated to follow the Welsh, French or English way.

It's our way and the WRU are trying to begin to mimic it.  It's proven a success.  We don't blindly follow; to do that would be to give in to outside nosy interference from RFU or WRU or PRL or your Regional Organisation.  Mind your own businesses, would the natural response.  
Yes, by all means keep coming here to moan and groan about the unfairness of it all.  Write as many threads as you all like.
But when push comes to shove, either change your system to better compete, leave the Pro12 in another huff of red mist and join an Anglo/Welsh league or simply mind your own business.  There are a few choices there.

There's that logic again - a Welshman cannot disagree with the Irish system if somebody at the WRU wants to copy a tiny bit of it. If that is your honest mindset then I cannot debate logic with you, because you're illogical.

Sure, the Irish system has been successful (to a degree) for Ireland. Past tense. When the Irish could outspend others their domestic teams won European Cups. Now that they can no longer outspend others, they are not so successful. Funny that. And, as for International success, a Grand Slam was finally won against fit opposition. But that's just one Grand Slam.

The Irish system is unhealthy IF (now please do try to understand the context here) the PrO'12 is to become a healthy league. If the Irish system is more important than the PrO'12 being healthy then so be it. That's fine.

You're right on the choices and you've painted the picture well. You lot won't change, at all, so you'll get left behind. As I wrote earlier, if the ERC debacle hasn't taught Irish rugby fans that then there is a big wake up call coming.

Hmmm.... everything I said is logical.  You disagree with logic.  Fine.

Then to the little bites.  Not so objective as you make out, Phil.  Not that it matters.  You're Welsh and want what's best for Welsh rugby.  I only have utmost respect for people like that - ask RubyGuby...one of those few lads that does stop by for a chat with me   )
Anyway...  successful (to a degree).  Yep - successful to a degree.  More successful than it might have been or many observers felt it would be with the coming of Professionalism.  So yes, very much successful to a degree - just like English rugby, Welsh rugby and French rugby.  I'm tempted to say I don't understand what's so pointed about 'to a degree'.  But of course I do understand, its a casual clip on the ear for implied superiority

Again, say what you will about the word 'Healthy' and labour the point as much as you like down our channel for blame.  The Pro12 isn't perfect.  But it isn't unhealthy.  If your idea of health is more money thrown your way from big Broadcasting companies then fine.  That's not a definition of Healthy that everyone would share with you again.

The ERC debate happened - and change came - whether people wanted it or not.  Certainly Irish rugby didn't get any help from their trusted Welsh Pro12 partners in forming a stronger alliance to resist imposed changes from without.  Where was the Health of the Pro12 partnership there?  Where was out Welsh friends then to stand side by side with us against the Slave traders of AP and Top14?  Health?  Welsh attitudes to Pro12 kinda burned a lot of those bridges marked Health as they scurried around threatening this and that.

And now?  Now we're all meant to be friends again (in organisational rugby terms) and absolutely without a shadow of a doubt all allegedly want what's best for each other.......................................?  
How many CEOs and Union Leaders and Club Chairman believe that?  This is a chess game and a continuing power grab - club v union/big clubs v little clubs - European wide and maybe beyond.

Yes, there probably is a time when every fan has to lay their cards on the table and declare they want club rugby in Europe to transcend International (Premiership Football for example) OR they don't.  I think I've made it clear which platform I'm on.

SecretFly wrote:

Hmmm.... everything I said is logical.  You disagree with logic.  Fine.

Then to the little bites.  Not so objective as you make out, Phil.  Not that it matters.  You're Welsh and want what's best for Welsh rugby.  I only have utmost respect for people like that - ask RubyGuby...one of those few lads that does stop by for a chat with me   )
Anyway...  successful (to a degree).  Yep - successful to a degree.  More successful than it might have been or many observers felt it would be with the coming of Professionalism.  So yes, very much successful to a degree - just like English rugby, Welsh rugby and French rugby.  I'm tempted to say I don't understand what's so pointed about 'to a degree'.  But of course I do understand, its a casual clip on the ear for implied superiority

Again, say what you will about the word 'Healthy' and labour the point as much as you like down our channel for blame.  The Pro12 isn't perfect.  But it isn't unhealthy.  If your idea of health is more money thrown your way from big Broadcasting companies then fine.  That's not a definition of Healthy that everyone would share with you again.

The ERC debate happened - and change came - whether people wanted it or not.  Certainly Irish rugby didn't get any help from their trusted Welsh Pro12 partners in forming a stronger alliance to resist imposed changes from without.  Where was the Health of the Pro12 partnership there?  Where was out Welsh friends then to stand side by side with us against the Slave traders of AP and Top14?  Health?  Welsh attitudes to Pro12 kinda burned a lot of those bridges marked Health as they scurried around threatening this and that.

And now?  Now we're all meant to be friends again (in organisational rugby terms) and absolutely without a shadow of a doubt all allegedly want what's best for each other.......................................?  
How many CEOs and Union Leaders and Club Chairman believe that?  This is a chess game and a continuing power grab - club v union/big clubs v little clubs - European wide and maybe beyond.

Yes, there probably is a time when every fan has to lay their cards on the table and declare they want club rugby in Europe to transcend International (Premiership Football for example) OR they don't.  I think I've made it clear which platform I'm on.

I don't know if I disagree with your logic as I cannot understand it.

My definition of a healthy league is one of transparency and independence where all teams are designed and set up to win it. The PrO'12 is not that by any stretch of the imagination.

The IRFU got huge support from Lewis over ERC. There was your 'support'. The Pro Teams had to look elsewhere in order to survive, but we've done that already.

The binary choice of 'international v club' is, for me, bonkers.

PhilBB wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

If you want to debate logic with me - an individual - you'll want to improve your aim and practice more.

You - as an individual - can think what you like about our system, you've given vent to if often enough here since you turned up recently.  We all know what you think.
But if you want to debate the issue logically then you stand still and take the logical tap back in your direction (WRU).  None of us are paid by IRFU, doesn't stop you throwing your stones.  Sit still, don't moan and we'll target our stones your way.
This brings us back to the other thread - and your affected bewilderment.  "These taunts and accusations are directed at you guys and your IRFU!!!  Stop bringing Davies, Lewis, WRU and Regions into it!!!!!" Get it now? You should if you're as adept at logic as you claim to be.

Meanwhile, back in the real world.  Nope, the IRFU Irish system is Not unhealthy - that is merely your opinion.  You are entitled to your opinion but we're not all obligated to share it.
No, it isn't unhealthy - it's a proven successful model for this Nation - we're not Wales, we're not obligated to follow the Welsh, French or English way.

It's our way and the WRU are trying to begin to mimic it.  It's proven a success.  We don't blindly follow; to do that would be to give in to outside nosy interference from RFU or WRU or PRL or your Regional Organisation.  Mind your own businesses, would the natural response.  
Yes, by all means keep coming here to moan and groan about the unfairness of it all.  Write as many threads as you all like.
But when push comes to shove, either change your system to better compete, leave the Pro12 in another huff of red mist and join an Anglo/Welsh league or simply mind your own business.  There are a few choices there.

There's that logic again - a Welshman cannot disagree with the Irish system if somebody at the WRU wants to copy a tiny bit of it. If that is your honest mindset then I cannot debate logic with you, because you're illogical.

Sure, the Irish system has been successful (to a degree) for Ireland. Past tense. When the Irish could outspend others their domestic teams won European Cups. Now that they can no longer outspend others, they are not so successful. Funny that. And, as for International success, a Grand Slam was finally won against fit opposition. But that's just one Grand Slam.

The Irish system is unhealthy IF (now please do try to understand the context here) the PrO'12 is to become a healthy league. If the Irish system is more important than the PrO'12 being healthy then so be it. That's fine.

You're right on the choices and you've painted the picture well. You lot won't change, at all, so you'll get left behind. As I wrote earlier, if the ERC debacle hasn't taught Irish rugby fans that then there is a big wake up call coming.

The Champs Cup has worked rather well for Ireland if you care to look at it. Nothing much has changed. Still 3 Irish Provinces involved (on merit) with a chance that our 4th province will qualify.

The added bonsus now is that it is out of Dublin and the Irish tax payer isn't subsidising European rugby anymore. Getting the World Rugby out of Ireland should be the next step.

The losers have been Wales (down to one team)*, Scotland (down to one team) and Italy (down to one team involved).

edit: *of course that doesn't bother you because all you are interested in is getting the cash which you are.

Sin é wrote:

The Champs Cup has worked rather well for Ireland if you care to look at it. Nothing much has changed. Still 3 Irish Provinces involved (on merit) with a chance that our 4th province will qualify.

The added bonsus now is that it is out of Dublin and the Irish tax payer isn't subsidising European rugby anymore. Getting the World Rugby out of Ireland should be the next step.

The losers have been Wales (down to one team), Scotland (down to one team) and Italy (down to one team involved).

The Irish tax payer never subsidised European rugby. It cannot be considered a subsidy if it didn't exist in the first place.

Where do you get the idea that Wales are down to one team?

Sin é wrote:The losers have been Wales (down to one team)*

I think you will find that Wales have two teams in the CC.

LordDowlais wrote:

Sin é wrote:The losers have been Wales (down to one team)*

I think you will find that Wales have two teams in the CC.

Incredible mindset, isn't it? So prickly.

LordDowlais wrote:

Sin é wrote:The losers have been Wales (down to one team)*

I think you will find that Wales have two teams in the CC.

Ops, should have known that. But you have lost a place in the bigger tournament - so yes, the Regional Rugby Wales lost out.

Sin é wrote:
Ops, should have known that. But you have lost a place in the bigger tournament - so yes, the Regional Rugby Wales lost out.

Do you mean Pro Rugby Wales?

I'd say losing a spot in return for a stake in the business is a very sensible move. Wouldn't you?

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:

The Champs Cup has worked rather well for Ireland if you care to look at it. Nothing much has changed. Still 3 Irish Provinces involved (on merit) with a chance that our 4th province will qualify.

The added bonsus now is that it is out of Dublin and the Irish tax payer isn't subsidising European rugby anymore. Getting the World Rugby out of Ireland should be the next step.

The losers have been Wales (down to one team), Scotland (down to one team) and Italy (down to one team involved).

The Irish tax payer never subsidised European rugby. It cannot be considered a subsidy if it didn't exist in the first place.

Where do you get the idea that Wales are down to one team?

ERC Rugby was tax exempt - so, thanks to the people of the Republic of Ireland ERC Rugby was at least 12.5% better off.

Not everyone can win the Pro12, its just the 6 winners since its foundation. That's half the league for the mathematically illiterate, the AP and Top14 is much more open with its 7 winners each in the same period.

The leagues not transparent enough even though there are reps for all for countries on the board, must be plenty of secrets being kept from them.

Sin é wrote:

ERC Rugby was tax exempt - so, thanks to the people of the Republic of Ireland ERC Rugby was at least 12.5% better off.

But that's not a subsidy as no payment was made. That's just a stupid Irish tax law.

Big difference.

marty2086 wrote:Not everyone can win the Pro12, its just the 6 winners since its foundation. That's half the league for the mathematically illiterate, the AP and Top14 is much more open with its 7 winners each in the same period.

The leagues not transparent enough even though there are reps for all for countries on the board, must be plenty of secrets being kept from them.

7. 'More much' than 6, for the mathematically illiterate.

For the language illiterate, a lack of transparency equates to secrets.

Dear God.

PhilBB wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Hmmm.... everything I said is logical.  You disagree with logic.  Fine.

Then to the little bites.  Not so objective as you make out, Phil.  Not that it matters.  You're Welsh and want what's best for Welsh rugby.  I only have utmost respect for people like that - ask RubyGuby...one of those few lads that does stop by for a chat with me   )
Anyway...  successful (to a degree).  Yep - successful to a degree.  More successful than it might have been or many observers felt it would be with the coming of Professionalism.  So yes, very much successful to a degree - just like English rugby, Welsh rugby and French rugby.  I'm tempted to say I don't understand what's so pointed about 'to a degree'.  But of course I do understand, its a casual clip on the ear for implied superiority

Again, say what you will about the word 'Healthy' and labour the point as much as you like down our channel for blame.  The Pro12 isn't perfect.  But it isn't unhealthy.  If your idea of health is more money thrown your way from big Broadcasting companies then fine.  That's not a definition of Healthy that everyone would share with you again.

The ERC debate happened - and change came - whether people wanted it or not.  Certainly Irish rugby didn't get any help from their trusted Welsh Pro12 partners in forming a stronger alliance to resist imposed changes from without.  Where was the Health of the Pro12 partnership there?  Where was out Welsh friends then to stand side by side with us against the Slave traders of AP and Top14?  Health?  Welsh attitudes to Pro12 kinda burned a lot of those bridges marked Health as they scurried around threatening this and that.

And now?  Now we're all meant to be friends again (in organisational rugby terms) and absolutely without a shadow of a doubt all allegedly want what's best for each other.......................................?  
How many CEOs and Union Leaders and Club Chairman believe that?  This is a chess game and a continuing power grab - club v union/big clubs v little clubs - European wide and maybe beyond.

Yes, there probably is a time when every fan has to lay their cards on the table and declare they want club rugby in Europe to transcend International (Premiership Football for example) OR they don't.  I think I've made it clear which platform I'm on.

I don't know if I disagree with your logic as I cannot understand it.

My definition of a healthy league is one of transparency and independence where all teams are designed and set up to win it. The PrO'12 is not that by any stretch of the imagination.

The IRFU got huge support from Lewis over ERC. There was your 'support'. The Pro Teams had to look elsewhere in order to survive, but we've done that already.

The binary choice of 'international v club' is, for me, bonkers.

The Pro Teams (Pro12...convenient likeness) tried to shaft us.  That's the only logic here.  Tried-to-shaft-us.  And now sit patiently waiting for us to make the move that might save their bacon a second time.  Healthy practices of supposed Partners?  No.  Two faced.  That's my definition of Unhealthy Toxic Relationship.  That's my definition of trust killed off, binned and buried.

If you 'don't understand' the complexity of a club v International debate - or want to - so be it.  The warning is out there - and you'll be wondering what hit you all when four Welsh Regions end up in 2nd division of the Perfect B&I League.  Hmmm, we didn't mean this kinda B&I League.

Final point look at transparency and independence and then go back to WRU paying 60% on certain players wages and wanting returns, look at the transparency over in PRL land where rules aren't abided by and protesters are silenced...and of course look over at France and the pharmacies that sell the alleged dubious stuff to the biggest side of them all.
Yeah, the rest of them are perfect.  But it's money.  Just give us the money and we'll accept anything.

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:

ERC Rugby was tax exempt - so, thanks to the people of the Republic of Ireland ERC Rugby was at least 12.5% better off.

But that's not a subsidy as no payment was made. That's just a stupid Irish tax law.

Big difference.

??? Stupid???

I don't understand? What do you mean there Phil?

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:

ERC Rugby was tax exempt - so, thanks to the people of the Republic of Ireland ERC Rugby was at least 12.5% better off.

But that's not a subsidy as no payment was made. That's just a stupid Irish tax law.

Big difference.

Not where I'm coming from (Irish tax payer). Good riddance to all you sports freeloaders.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Not everyone can win the Pro12, its just the 6 winners since its foundation. That's half the league for the mathematically illiterate, the AP and Top14 is much more open with its 7 winners each in the same period.

The leagues not transparent enough even though there are reps for all for countries on the board, must be plenty of secrets being kept from them.

7. 'More much' than 6, for the mathematically illiterate.

For the language illiterate, a lack of transparency equates to secrets.

Dear God.

More much?

That one extra winner is a huge gulf then in the openness in the league?

I'd have never made that match between transparency and secrets unless you told me, that must have been a coincidence me mentioning it in response to your transparency comment. My point which seems to have cleared your head is that all members are entitled to the same disclosure, unless your contacts are telling you its not happening?

SecretFly wrote:
The Pro Teams (Pro12...convenient likeness) tried to shaft us.  That's the only logic here.  Tried-to-shaft-us.  And now sit patiently waiting for us to make the move that might save their bacon a second time.  Healthy practices of supposed Partners?  No.  Two faced.  That's my definition of Unhealthy Toxic Relationship.  That's my definition of trust killed off, binned and buried.

If you 'don't understand' the complexity of a club v International debate - or want to - so be it.  The warning is out there - and you'll be wondering what hit you all when four Welsh Regions end up in 2nd division of the Perfect B&I League.  Hmmm, we didn't mean this kinda B&I League.

Final point look at transparency and independence and then go back to WRU paying 60% on certain players wages and wanting returns, look at the transparency over in PRL land where rules aren't abided by and protesters are silenced...and of course look over at France and the pharmacies that sell the alleged dubious stuff to the biggest side of them all.
Yeah, the rest of them are perfect.  But it's money.  Just give us the money and we'll accept anything.

The first paragraph makes no sense to me, sorry. If you think that PRW trying to ensure their future by signing up with the English was 'trying to shaft us' then you're ire is in the wrong place. There would have been no need to sign up with the English had Roger Lewis not behaved as he did - remember he was the man who refused to negotiate, refused to extend the deadline for agreement in Wales and, therefore, forced PRW into the Alliance with PRL. Had he not done any of that then there would have been no threat to the PrO'12.

As for the 'saving bacon' bit, I think that you're equally confused there. The Celtic Accord is in place only for a few more years. If the B&I option ever hits the table then it's not for the IRFU to hold back the Welsh teams. It will go ahead with or without the IRFU, I'd imagine, so there's no bacon to be saved.

Those are two crucial points that I feel you've got badly wrong.

Also, I don't understand what 'club v country' has to do with being in the 2nd tier of a B&I league. Can you explain the correlation, please?

I think that the NDCs in Wales are perfectly transparent, as are the five professional rugby organisations. The stuff on salary caps in England is mitigated by the fact that at least you can see how they spent their money, you can see who owns them and you can see their independence. In Ireland, none of that exists. There is no transparency.

The French comment really should be below you, of course.

Ah Marty, any chance of you answering Phill's question yet ?

SecretFly wrote:

??? Stupid???

I don't understand?   What do you mean there Phil?

I mean that I find the sporting organisation tax exemption, especially the McCreevy thing, to be stupid.

Thanks.

Sin é wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:

ERC Rugby was tax exempt - so, thanks to the people of the Republic of Ireland ERC Rugby was at least 12.5% better off.

But that's not a subsidy as no payment was made. That's just a stupid Irish tax law.

Big difference.

Not where I'm coming from (Irish tax payer). Good riddance to all you sports freeloaders.  

You didn't lose any tax. You didn't give any tax back. You just didn't collect it in the first place. That's your country's choice.

So it matters not a jot if you pay tax or not, as you've clearly not understood this.

marty2086 wrote:
More much?

That one extra winner is a huge gulf then in the openness in the league?

I'd have never made that match between transparency and secrets unless you told me, that must have been a coincidence me mentioning it in response to your transparency comment. My point which seems to have cleared your head is that all members are entitled to the same disclosure, unless your contacts are telling you its not happening?

Your point has indeed cleared my head.

All members of what are entitled to the same disclosure?

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Ops, should have known that. But you have lost a place in the bigger tournament - so yes, the Regional Rugby Wales lost out.

Do you mean Pro Rugby Wales?

I'd say losing a spot in return for a stake in the business is a very sensible move. Wouldn't you?

No. Actually. Your stake is worthless. Having Champs cup games in the Regions would have been of more benefit (at least you would be getting match day takings).

Sin é wrote:

No. Actually. Your stake is worthless. Having Champs cup games in the Regions would have been of more benefit (at least you would be getting match day takings).

You do realise that the stake in that company prevented Lewis from shutting down PRW, don't you?

Clearly you don't, else you'd not have called it worthless.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
More much?

That one extra winner is a huge gulf then in the openness in the league?

I'd have never made that match between transparency and secrets unless you told me, that must have been a coincidence me mentioning it in response to your transparency comment. My point which seems to have cleared your head is that all members are entitled to the same disclosure, unless your contacts are telling you its not happening?

Your point has indeed cleared my head.

All members of what are entitled to the same disclosure?

The Trade Federation as that's what his discussion has been about all along

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
More much?

That one extra winner is a huge gulf then in the openness in the league?

I'd have never made that match between transparency and secrets unless you told me, that must have been a coincidence me mentioning it in response to your transparency comment. My point which seems to have cleared your head is that all members are entitled to the same disclosure, unless your contacts are telling you its not happening?

Your point has indeed cleared my head.

All members of what are entitled to the same disclosure?

The Trade Federation as that's what his discussion has been about all along

I'm lost. What Trade Federation?

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:

No. Actually. Your stake is worthless. Having Champs cup games in the Regions would have been of more benefit (at least you would be getting match day takings).

You do realise that the stake in that company prevented Lewis from shutting down PRW, don't you?

Clearly you don't, else you'd not have called it worthless.

And it all boils back to the Regions row with Lewis.

I'll tell you one thing, if you think Lewis was difficult, wait until the next row crops up and your 'so called' friends in Europe dumps you. I'd say its out of the frying pan into the fire.

Now, explain to me how the Irish have lost out in this new European thing (other than the merit payments for reaching the knockout stages have been cut (and the incentive to get there )

PhilBB wrote:I'm lost. What Trade Federation?

The one's causing a blockade around our planet of course.... oh wait, that's Star Wars....or is this Star Wars....friggin hell our Irish members on here have totally screwed up reality for me now.

Hey, perhaps thats what is happening, our Irish friends are not living in reality, and that is why they cannot see the blindingly obvious issues that the IRFU causes our league.

Oh,oh, I am typing like Secretfly now.... time to go.

I don't give a damn about Lewis, Phil.  Not a single damn about Lewis.  He's your baby.  You feed him or throw him out with the bathwater...I don't care.

The Health of the Pro12 was the sub-topic.  Being dictated about the 'Health' of the Pro12 by supporters of skunkers that tried to escape it first chance they got??  Really - we're that dumb?  To listen to suggestions from Regional rugby fans about how to 'improve' Irish rugby to make the Regions want to love us again - if ever they did?

They want out. Simples. They don't seem to be able to get out unless we part the sea for them.

You seemingly never heard of the 'Jeff' and yet write Rugby blogs?  And now you don't know how to think ahead on an International v club future and work out where pitfalls might be in the developments for Welsh rugby infrastructure and survival of Welsh Regions/clubs?  And you write a blog?

No mitigation in either AP or Top14.  Non transparency and dicey dealings.
"You can see how they spent their money"  ???  The point has blatantly been - no, you couldn't see how they spent their money for a few of the bigger ones.  

Do you keep up to date on these stories at all?

Sin é wrote:

And it all boils back to the Regions row with Lewis.

I'll tell you one thing, if you think Lewis was difficult, wait until the next row crops up and your 'so called' friends in Europe dumps you. I'd say its out of the frying pan into the fire.

Now, explain to me how the Irish have lost out in this new European thing (other than the merit payments for reaching the knockout stages have been cut (and the incentive to get there )

Of course it all boils down to Lewis. It's why we have what we have.

Our 'so called friends'? Nice prediction. A lot of projection, actually.

How have the Irish lost out on a competition their control over has been diluted and is no longer 'next door'? Hmmm. That's a tough one.

PhilBB wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

??? Stupid???

I don't understand?   What do you mean there Phil?

I mean that I find the sporting organisation tax exemption, especially the McCreevy thing, to be stupid.

Thanks.

Stupid as in 'unhealthy' again, or stupid in that it didn't work, or stupid as in 'why didn't we do that?', or stupid as in 'pity the f**king policy seems to have worked'?

Which stupid?

SecretFly wrote:I don't give a damn about Lewis, Phil.  Not a single damn about Lewis.  He's your baby.  You feed him or throw him out with the bathwater...I don't care.

The Health of the Pro12 was the sub-topic.  Being dictated about the 'Health' of the Pro12 by supporters of skunkers that tried to escape it first chance they got??  Really - we're that dumb?  To listen to suggestions from Regional rugby fans about how to 'improve' Irish rugby to make the Regions want to love us again - if ever they did?

They want out.  Simples.  They don't seem to be able to get out unless we part the sea for them.

You seemingly never heard of the 'Jeff' and yet write Rugby blogs?  And now you don't know how to think ahead on an International v club future and work out where pitfalls might be in the developments for Welsh rugby infrastructure and survival of Welsh Regions/clubs?  And you write a blog?

No mitigation in either AP or Top14.  Non transparency and dicey dealings.
"You can see how they spent their money"  ???  The point has blatantly been - no, you couldn't see how they spent their money for a few of the bigger ones.  

Do you keep up to date on these stories at all?

Skunkers?

It's odd that you wish to blame PRW for what you see as some great wrong committed, yet you don't care about the real reason for that alleged wrong. Fair enough, that's your shout. You keep ploughing the furrow of ignorance.

Sure, I'd hope that PRW want out of the PrO'12 as soon as they can, hopefully when the Celtic Accord ends (if not sooner). Yet you seem unable to differentiate between the point of view of the poster and his/her nationality. It's a really odd approach to debate.

I'd like to think that I'm fairly up to date with rugby events but, as has been the theme, I'm miles away from your interpretation of them.

SecretFly wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

??? Stupid???

I don't understand?   What do you mean there Phil?

I mean that I find the sporting organisation tax exemption, especially the McCreevy thing, to be stupid.

Thanks.

Stupid as in 'unhealthy' again, or stupid in that it didn't work, or stupid as in 'why didn't we do that?', or stupid as in 'pity the f**king policy seems to have worked'?

Which stupid?

Stupid as in completely unnecessary and rather daft when you have to have the Germans bail you out.