Scarlets v Ulster 12th September 2015 15:00 Parc y Scarlets

First topic message reminder :

Scarlets have won their last five Guinness PRO12 fixtures since Edinburgh won at Parc y Scarlets on 28th March.

This also represents their only home defeat in the tournament since Boxing Day 2013.

Ulster ended a three game winless streak in the Guinness PRO12 with their 28-6 victory over the Ospreys in Belfast on Friday. The Ulstermen have won three of their last six away games in the tournament.

Scarlets have won just one of their last eight encounters with Ulster in the PRO12: 17-9 in Llanelli on 2 November 2013. Overall the Ulstermen have a won 2, drawn 2, lost 5 record in all competitions at Parc y Scarlets.

At Parc y Scarlets, 3pm.

Referee: Andrew Brace (IRFU, 2nd competition game)
Assistant Referees: Neil Hennessy, Justin Williams (both WRU)
Citing Commissioner: Aurwel Morgan (WRU)
TMO: J Mason (WRU)

Live on Sky Sports
Read more at http://www.pro12rugby.com/matchcentre/17800.php#Ai2TBfB6KdSd17AW.99

This is where he says "contracted doesn't mean they get paid" and "that money could be for kit, whistles and pastries"

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

That may be the case but that's far from blindingly obvious as you've previously stated

That rather depends on your perception abilities.

Well when you say 'The PrO'12 may pay the IRFU for use of its referees', if its blindingly obvious either they do or they don't. The truth is you don't know either way, so your making a leap to blindingly obvious past the lack of concrete evidence to conclusions that suit your beliefs.

Oh dear. Oh dear. Oh dear.

It looks like this will have to go to Key Stage 2 in order to get the point through: whether the PrO'12 pay the IRFU for the use of its labour is utterly irrelevant to whether the IRFU pay the referees that work for the IRFU and are contracted to the IRFU.

What we have here is evidence of Irish referees working for the IRFU, being contracted to the IRFU and a huge sum paid by the IRFU for referees. If you still want to hang on to a belief that the IRFU contracted referees are not IRFU employees, and therefore colleagues of the IRFU contracted players (i.e. all of them) then please state that belief clearly.

No what you have here is a world rugby requirement referees belong to a national union

marty2086 wrote:

No what you have here is a world rugby requirement referees belong to a national union

Which, of course, doesn't negate the fact that the referees are contracted to the Union and paid by the Union.

Sorry.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

No what you have here is a world rugby requirement referees belong to a national union

Which, of course, doesn't negate the fact that the referees are contracted to the Union and paid by the Union.

Sorry.

And yet there is nothing to show they are in fact paid by the union to referee games

marty2086 wrote:

And yet there is nothing to show they are in fact paid by the union to referee games

Ok, that's an interesting position to take.

Could you be explicit in your opinion on this, please?

Do you think that the IRFU pay their contracted referees to referee - yes or no?

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

And yet there is nothing to show they are in fact paid by the union to referee games

Ok, that's an interesting position to take.

Could you be explicit in your opinion on this, please?

Do you think that the IRFU pay their contracted referees to referee - yes or no?

It doesn't matter what I think here because the simple fact is that you don't know your assuming and what I think on that is that you formed that opinion because it suited your other conclusions

marty2086 wrote:

It doesn't matter what I think here because the simple fact is that you don't know your assuming and what I think on that is that you formed that opinion because it suited your other conclusions

Ok, thanks for your view on my opinion.

Now, would you answer the question, please? Here it is again:

Do you think that the IRFU pay their contracted referees to referee - yes or no?

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

It doesn't matter what I think here because the simple fact is that you don't know your assuming and what I think on that is that you formed that opinion because it suited your other conclusions

Ok, thanks for your view on my opinion.

Now, would you answer the question, please? Here it is again:

Do you think that the IRFU pay their contracted referees to referee - yes or no?

Why?!

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

It doesn't matter what I think here because the simple fact is that you don't know your assuming and what I think on that is that you formed that opinion because it suited your other conclusions

Ok, thanks for your view on my opinion.

Now, would you answer the question, please? Here it is again:

Do you think that the IRFU pay their contracted referees to referee - yes or no?

Why?!

Oh.

I'm interested in whether we share the same opinion on this. I say they do pay those referees.

What do you say? Yes or no?

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

It doesn't matter what I think here because the simple fact is that you don't know your assuming and what I think on that is that you formed that opinion because it suited your other conclusions

Ok, thanks for your view on my opinion.

Now, would you answer the question, please? Here it is again:

Do you think that the IRFU pay their contracted referees to referee - yes or no?

Why?!

Oh.

I'm interested in whether we share the same opinion on this. I say they do pay those referees.

What do you say? Yes or no?

Well I just don't know

Theres nothing showing that the IRFU pay the refs, if they did pay them for the Pro12 games then you get into issues of pay structures and different tax laws as the SRU and WRU refs will be getting different tax so the common sense approach is for everyone to be paid by the Pro12

marty2086 wrote:

Well I just don't know

Theres nothing showing that the IRFU pay the refs, if they did pay them for the Pro12 games then you get into issues of pay structures and different tax laws as the SRU and WRU refs will be getting different tax so the common sense approach is for everyone to be paid by the Pro12

You think? So a Welsh guy living in West Wales is employed by a company based in the RoI for work primarily undertaken in Britain? I see.

I think that you do know, by the way, but you just don't want to admit that they are colleagues of the players.

That aside, let's look at Fitzgibbon. Is he a colleague of the players?

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Well I just don't know

Theres nothing showing that the IRFU pay the refs, if they did pay them for the Pro12 games then you get into issues of pay structures and different tax laws as the SRU and WRU refs will be getting different tax so the common sense approach is for everyone to be paid by the Pro12

You think? So a Welsh guy living in West Wales is employed by a company based in the RoI for work primarily undertaken in Britain? I see.

I think that you do know, by the way, but you just don't want to admit that they are colleagues of the players.

That aside, let's look at Fitzgibbon. Is he a colleague of the players?

And back to this because you know your point is lost

Why would the IRFU pay for work done on behalf of the Pro12? What business sense does that make?

marty2086 wrote:

And back to this because you know your point is lost

Why would the IRFU pay for work done on behalf of the Pro12? What business sense does that make?

How is my point lost? My point is that the IRFU pays its contracted referees. I've answered those questions before whilst pointing out the IRFU's ownership of the PrO'12.

If we get hold of Celtic Rugby's accounts, we'll have an answer to this.

In the meantime, there's a question waiting for you in another thread with regards to your claim of a redevelopment of the Arms Park. I'll look forward to reading your answer on that.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

And back to this because you know your point is lost

Why would the IRFU pay for work done on behalf of the Pro12? What business sense does that make?

How is my point lost? My point is that the IRFU pays its contracted referees. I've answered those questions before whilst pointing out the IRFU's ownership of the PrO'12.

If we get hold of Celtic Rugby's accounts, we'll have an answer to this.

In the meantime, there's a question waiting for you in another thread with regards to your claim of a redevelopment of the Arms Park. I'll look forward to reading your answer on that.

So what your saying is you just need the proof to prove your facts? That's a pain in the ass

marty2086 wrote:
So what your saying is you just need the proof to prove your facts? That's a pain in the ass

No, I'm saying two things:

1. That there is enough evidence to prove that the IRFU pays its contracted referees.
2. That you're bottling out of answering a question on your claim of a redevelopment of the Arms Park.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
So what your saying is you just need the proof to prove your facts? That's a pain in the ass

No, I'm saying two things:

1. That there is enough evidence to prove that the IRFU pays its contracted referees.
2. That you're bottling out of answering a question on your claim of a redevelopment of the Arms Park.

Theres no evidence, theres you supposing that a heading on a balance sheet means what you want it to mean

marty2086 wrote:

Theres no evidence, theres you supposing that a heading on a balance sheet means what you want it to mean

There's certainly evidence of point 2. Continuing evidence.

As for Celtic Rugby Ltd abridged accounts of 2013: there is no notice of salaries paid. It paid out admin expenses of £10,391,319 to its interested parties.

Sorry.

2004: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/2388387/Fears-over-shortage-of-referees-at-top-level.html

That's what the RFU were paying then.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Theres no evidence, theres you supposing that a heading on a balance sheet means what you want it to mean

There's certainly evidence of point 2. Continuing evidence.

As for Celtic Rugby Ltd abridged accounts of 2013: there is no notice of salaries paid. It paid out admin expenses of £10,391,319 to its interested parties.

Sorry.

So they didn't pay any staff at all? That's generous of those people to work for free

marty2086 wrote:

So they didn't pay any staff at all? That's generous of those people to work for free

I'd suppose that most are subcontracted to the other organisations that they share office space with, hence the address for Tina Robertson is tina@sixnations.net

This is a potential issue for you, too:

All-Ireland League match referees are given a set fee that goes through payroll and is taxed. Division 1A and 1B matches command a fee of €170, while Divisions 2A and 2B come in at €100, while they are also given 50c per mile in travel expenses. There are accommodation and subsistence allowances where necessary.

Referees at junior matches do not get paid.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/referees-expenses-issue-is-the-real-payments-problem-26826779.html

Ouch.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

So they didn't pay any staff at all? That's generous of those people to work for free

I'd suppose that most are subcontracted to the other organisations that they share office space with, hence the address for Tina Robertson is tina@sixnations.net

This is a potential issue for you, too:

All-Ireland League match referees are given a set fee that goes through payroll and is taxed. Division 1A and 1B matches command a fee of €170, while Divisions 2A and 2B come in at €100, while they are also given 50c per mile in travel expenses. There are accommodation and subsistence allowances where necessary.

Referees at junior matches do not get paid.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/referees-expenses-issue-is-the-real-payments-problem-26826779.html

Ouch.

Why is that a problem? I knew about the expenses and thanks for pointing out about their fees but why would the IRFU paying refs to referee matches organised by the IRFU be a problem?

marty2086 wrote:
Why is that a problem? I knew about the expenses and thanks for pointing out about their fees but why would the IRFU paying refs to referee matches organised by the IRFU be a problem?

Great, so the starting position is that you agree that IRFU contracted referees are paid by the IRFU to referee games organised by the IRFU.

Yes?

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
Why is that a problem? I knew about the expenses and thanks for pointing out about their fees but why would the IRFU paying refs to referee matches organised by the IRFU be a problem?

Great, so the starting position is that you agree that IRFU contracted referees are paid by the IRFU to referee games organised by the IRFU.

Yes?

Well unless they have got Rory McIlroy or Denis O'Brien to pitch in for that

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
Why is that a problem? I knew about the expenses and thanks for pointing out about their fees but why would the IRFU paying refs to referee matches organised by the IRFU be a problem?

Great, so the starting position is that you agree that IRFU contracted referees are paid by the IRFU to referee games organised by the IRFU.

Yes?

What's the point in this one, Phil? Who pays the Welsh referees?

Owen Doyle, the IRFU director of referee development, overseas the production line of Irish referees: "They are fully professional, but they are not full-time professionals.

http://www.herald.ie/sport/rugby/irish-are-ahead-of-the-game-27938607.html

Doing it for free?

SecretFly wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
Why is that a problem? I knew about the expenses and thanks for pointing out about their fees but why would the IRFU paying refs to referee matches organised by the IRFU be a problem?

Great, so the starting position is that you agree that IRFU contracted referees are paid by the IRFU to referee games organised by the IRFU.

Yes?

What's the point in this one, Phil?  Who pays the Welsh referees?

That if the IRFU pay them it must be to rig the league

SecretFly wrote:

What's the point in this one, Phil?  Who pays the Welsh referees?

The point is that the IRFU employs referees to referee their colleagues.

The WRU pays the Welsh referees.

PhilBB wrote:Owen Doyle, the IRFU director of referee development, overseas the production line of Irish referees: "They are fully professional, but they are not full-time professionals.

http://www.herald.ie/sport/rugby/irish-are-ahead-of-the-game-27938607.html

Doing it for free?

Since you saw fit to criticise my grammar and spelling in the past, it is only fair I point out it's oversee!

And that the articles sub headline is 'If no man is an island, an international rugby union referee could certainly be forgiven for feeling a little isolated these days.'

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:Owen Doyle, the IRFU director of referee development, overseas the production line of Irish referees: "They are fully professional, but they are not full-time professionals.

http://www.herald.ie/sport/rugby/irish-are-ahead-of-the-game-27938607.html

Doing it for free?

Since you saw fit to criticise my grammar and spelling in the past, it is only fair I point out it's oversee!

And that the articles sub headline is 'If no man is an island, an international rugby union referee could certainly be forgiven for feeling a little isolated these days.'

Mine was a copy and paste, marty. You're criticising the spelling of the origin, not me.

You're still not getting that the Unions pay their refs to referee outside of their domain, are you?

This is as painful as you running from your 'redeveloped Arms Park' comment.

marty2086 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
Why is that a problem? I knew about the expenses and thanks for pointing out about their fees but why would the IRFU paying refs to referee matches organised by the IRFU be a problem?

Great, so the starting position is that you agree that IRFU contracted referees are paid by the IRFU to referee games organised by the IRFU.

Yes?

What's the point in this one, Phil?  Who pays the Welsh referees?

That if the IRFU pay them it must be to rig the league

Fair play, that's a blatant lie.

You don't have write some trash when you're on the back foot, marty.

PhilBB wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

What's the point in this one, Phil?  Who pays the Welsh referees?

The point is that the IRFU employs referees to referee their colleagues.

The WRU pays the Welsh referees.

And Welsh players, the WRU also receive prize money for the Regions do they do not?

marty2086 wrote:
And Welsh players, the WRU also receive prize money for the Regions do they do not?

The WRU doesn't fully employ any player.

Any prize money belongs to the Pro Teams.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:Owen Doyle, the IRFU director of referee development, overseas the production line of Irish referees: "They are fully professional, but they are not full-time professionals.

http://www.herald.ie/sport/rugby/irish-are-ahead-of-the-game-27938607.html

Doing it for free?

Since you saw fit to criticise my grammar and spelling in the past, it is only fair I point out it's oversee!

And that the articles sub headline is 'If no man is an island, an international rugby union referee could certainly be forgiven for feeling a little isolated these days.'

Mine was a copy and paste, marty. You're criticising the spelling of the origin, not me.

You're still not getting that the Unions pay their refs to referee outside of their domain, are you?

This is as painful as you running from your 'redeveloped Arms Park' comment.

That must have been in invisible ink where it said the IRFU paid them or Im just thick as I'm pretty sure he just said they are professionals

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
Why is that a problem? I knew about the expenses and thanks for pointing out about their fees but why would the IRFU paying refs to referee matches organised by the IRFU be a problem?

Great, so the starting position is that you agree that IRFU contracted referees are paid by the IRFU to referee games organised by the IRFU.

Yes?

What's the point in this one, Phil?  Who pays the Welsh referees?

That if the IRFU pay them it must be to rig the league

Fair play, that's a blatant lie.

You don't have write some trash when you're on the back foot, marty.

Your trying to infer that theres something hand if the IRFU does pay the referees

PhilBB wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

What's the point in this one, Phil?  Who pays the Welsh referees?

The point is that the IRFU employs referees to referee their colleagues.

The WRU pays the Welsh referees.

Same thing...who pays some regional players wages? Who gives money to Regions?

Same thing. WRU runs with the Regions, benefits from regions winning. It's a national unity of the willing....well, ever since Lewis had his wings clipped.

Nobody believes here Phil that the Regions and the WRU don't share a vested interest in success. We're back to the idea that some of us are being told to believe in this idea that Regions (private entity clubs, in other words) are stateless products that National borders have no influence on.

Nobody believes that - either about PRL and RFU or about your Regional group and WRU.

marty2086 wrote:

That must have been in invisible ink where it said the IRFU paid them or Im just thick as I'm pretty sure he just said they are professionals

The IRFU Director of Referee Development notes that they are professional refs.

Who do you think pays them?

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
And Welsh players, the WRU also receive prize money for the Regions do they do not?

The WRU doesn't fully employ any player.

Any prize money belongs to the Pro Teams.

So if the WRU pays a player to play for them and a referee to do his job their not colleagues?

marty2086 wrote:

Your trying to infer that theres something hand if the IRFU does pay the referees

Nope. I'm just proving that they are colleagues with the players and that doesn't make for a healthy league.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

That must have been in invisible ink where it said the IRFU paid them or Im just thick as I'm pretty sure he just said they are professionals

The IRFU Director of Referee Development notes that they are professional refs.

Who do you think pays them?

I think Ive answered that numerous times

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Your trying to infer that theres something hand if the IRFU does pay the referees

Nope. I'm just proving that they are colleagues with the players and that doesn't make for a healthy league.

Because all fans delve as deep into it as you?

It only makes it unhealthy if they are paying them to fix games

marty2086 wrote:
So if the WRU pays a player to play for them and a referee to do his job their not colleagues?

The WRU doesn't pay its 12 players to play in games refereed by WRU refs.

Unfortunately, you don't seem to comprehend that your own question undermines your entire opinion on this.

SecretFly wrote:

Same thing...who pays some regional players wages?  Who gives money to Regions?

Same thing.  WRU runs with the Regions, benefits from regions winning.  It's a national unity of the willing....well, ever since Lewis had his wings clipped.

Nobody believes here Phil that the Regions and the WRU don't share a vested interest in success.  We're back to the idea that some of us are being told to believe in this idea that Regions (private entity clubs, in other words) are stateless products that National borders have no influence on.

Nobody believes that - either about PRL and RFU or about your Regional group and WRU.

The Pro Teams employ their own players. Nobody gives them money.

I've no idea of the relevance of the bit in bold to the fact that the IRFU referees and players are colleagues. I'm reminded that marty's original position was the IRFU didn't contract the players. Now he's trying to argue that the IRFU contracted referees aren't paid by the IRFU to referee PrO'12 games.

All of this on top of his claim that the Arms Park was redeveloped using government money.

The long and the short of all of this is that marty hasn't got the foggiest.

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

That must have been in invisible ink where it said the IRFU paid them or Im just thick as I'm pretty sure he just said they are professionals

The IRFU Director of Referee Development notes that they are professional refs.

Who do you think pays them?

I think Ive answered that numerous times

So, one more time please.

Who pays George Clancy to referee a PrO'12 game?

marty2086 wrote:

Because all fans delve as deep into it as you?

It only makes it unhealthy if they are paying them to fix games

That's an interesting line of thought. It's rather revealing, too.

Why can't Nigel Owens referee a Wales game? Is it because he'll cheat?

Are there not central contracts? Who funds them?

SecretFly wrote:Are there not central contracts?  Who funds them?

There are National Dual Contracts.

60% paid by the WRU, 40% by the Pro Team.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Because all fans delve as deep into it as you?

It only makes it unhealthy if they are paying them to fix games

That's an interesting line of thought. It's rather revealing, too.

Why can't Nigel Owens referee a Wales game? Is it because he'll cheat?

Well according to most Welsh posters here recently... yep, he'll cheat. Or allow one team to cheat and punish the other one.

SecretFly wrote:

Well according to most Welsh posters here recently... yep, he'll cheat.  Or allow one team to cheat and punish the other one.

Are you confusing that with him refereeing Ireland?

PhilBB wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Are there not central contracts?  Who funds them?

There are National Dual Contracts.

60% paid by the WRU, 40% by the Pro Team.

you said only a few moments ago that nobody gives them money.

Do you think a lot of us here don't know about Dual/Central contracts? .... Regional players (private clubs) subsidised by WRU (Union) and nobody is a colleague in these relationships?

WRU pays Refs and pays portions of Player wages.  Vested Interest at work - and active (business centric) desire for regions to succeed to make investment pay for itself.

SecretFly wrote:

you said only a few moments ago that nobody gives them money.

Do you think a lot of us here don't know about Dual/Central contracts? .... Regional players (private clubs) subsidised by WRU (Union) and nobody is a colleague in these relationships?

WRU pays Refs and pays portions of Player wages.  Vested Interest at work - and active (business centric) desire for regions to succeed to make investment pay for itself.

Sure, if you'd like to pull a link between paying 60% of 12 players salaries and having a 'vested interest' then I'll agree with you. However, when you hold that opinion it naturally follows that owning four teams, employing most (if not all) of the players AND employing the referees is just as unhealthy but on a hugely more significant scale.

So, all in all, you've just proven how unhealthy it is for the league for the Unions to employ players and referees, thus proving my point.

Thanks for that.