Welsh Regions must be allowed more foreign players to compete, insists Ospreys chief Andrew Hore

I'm sorry Andrew, but you are talking out of your rear end. We only have 4 Pro teams in Wales, we cannot afford to jam pack them with NWQ players, I think the amount now is too much. Andrew Hore should look at working harder to develop Welsh talent rather than trying to plug holes with NWQ players, do anyone else think he is right ?

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/welsh-regions-must-allowed-more-10635797

Come on Hore pull the other one, it has bells on.

LordDowlais wrote:I'm sorry Andrew, but you are talking out of your rear end. We only have 4 Pro teams in Wales, we cannot afford to jam pack them with NWQ players, I think the amount now is too much. Andrew Hore should look at working harder to develop Welsh talent rather than trying to plug holes with NWQ players, do anyone else think he is right ?

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/welsh-regions-must-allowed-more-10635797

Come on Hore pull the other one, it has bells on.

Once you wade through the inevitable (but understandable) and tiresome 'me! me! me!' pro-Ospreys schlick Hoe talks a lot of sense. I would make the NWQ limit proportionate to Cement Head's 'wild card' allowance also.

We need to be careful here in Wales, Hore is on about how the English and French have 40%+ NQP in their leagues, what he does not take into account is that they have 4 times as many pro teams in their leagues as well, so if we were to follow the English and the French the Welsh team would be the same as the one when all our best players went to rugby league, and we were losing to Canada, and getting tonked by everyone else.

I do not want to go back to those dark, dark, days.

I agree with LD on this. When you have a small number of teams from which to draw players for the national side, you absolutely have to keep a lid on the number of NWQ players featuring in those sides. Almost as importantly you also have to exercise an element of quality control on those players you sign to ensure that they are genuinely adding something that a WQ player cannot. You'd think the quota would ensure that happens as a matter of course, but I'm not always convinced. We've certainly signed some NSQ dross in the past up on Scotland.

So what's the solution? Employ welsh qualified players who are not pro standard like the blues have been doing?

If you want to compete, you need to have a squad that's fit for it and signing quality imports is part of it.  We have 4 teams because we cannot sustain any more than that figure.  Because of the structural mess in wales (relying on the welsh premiership to bring players through) talented players are not coming through in droves so what hore is saying is true, when there's an international period squads are stretched to using players who are either not ready for pro level rugby or who are simply just not good enough.

I'd rather have my team be like Toulon and play in front of a big crowd, attract the worlds best players and WIN matches and WIN trophies than scraping through the WP for a WQ prop because we're not allowed to look outside.

For me it's about the quality of the foreign imports. I don't mind the quota per team being increased as long as they're quality. Back in the Newport RFC days there were a a few stinkers but by and large the foreign guys were quality - players like Teichmann, Percy Montgomery, Adrian Garvey, etc. Fast forward to regional rugby in the last few years and I'd estimate the ratio of successful foreign imports (at the Dragons) to stinkers at about 1:5 or maybe even 1:10. For every Landman there's about 10 who've come in, been rubbish, and have fallen by the wayside.

So for me the concept is simple: buy established, quality foreign imports or not at all. Don't buy untried 21 year old Fiji props just to plug a hole. Go for an untried local lad instead. If we buy established, 'marquee' players it should be sort of self policing anyway - I.e. Regions will only be able to afford about 5 or 6 of them tops as they'll be expensive, so we won't be able to pack the team with NWQ's and block the development of local lads. They'll be quality so it should help get bums on seats and will help to bring on the skills of the up 'n coming youngsters in the regions. I'm all for it.

What I hate, as previously stated, is where we take a punt on foreign off casts who are not big names, can't get in their own teams, and end up being no better than our own regional academy products. So something we need to be better at (and we have been to a certain extent in recent seasons) is letting players flow more easily between regions if they can't get game time.

So for me, look intra-regionally first and if a position can't be filled reasonably then look to the wider world and quality, established, 'star' players, of which we the regions can only realistically afford a handful of. Simple!

Lord Clickbait, your beloved Ospreys need more overseas players due to the fact that they have the most NDC players and will suffer the most from Wales call-ups. Also bearing in mind the state of their PS XV and premiership teams then it makes perfect sense. This business model worked wonders for Saracens a few years ago btw.

mikey_dragon wrote:Lord Clickbait, your beloved Ospreys need more overseas players due to the fact that they have the most NDC players and will suffer the most from Wales call-ups. Also bearing in mind the state of their PS XV and premiership teams then it makes perfect sense. This business model worked wonders for Saracens a few years ago btw.

Firstly, what is that about ?

Secondly, Ospreys are not my beloved.

It was a lighthearted bit of humour. Secondly, are you sure? You have previously posted about them in such divine light is all - it's no problem if they are your beloved...

mikey_dragon wrote:It was a lighthearted bit of humour. Secondly, are you sure? You have previously posted about them in such divine light is all - it's no problem if they are your beloved...

When they play well, I will say so, they played good rugby at times in the league last year, in fact they played the best out of all the regions, so of course I would praise them more than others, incidentally I am more of a Blues supporter than anything else, it's just that they do not have much for me to praise them about.

Griff wrote:For me it's about the quality of the foreign imports. I don't mind the quota per team being increased as long as they're quality. Back in the Newport RFC days there were a a few stinkers but by and large the foreign guys were quality - players like Teichmann, Percy Montgomery, Adrian Garvey, etc. Fast forward to regional rugby in the last few years and I'd estimate the ratio of successful foreign imports (at the Dragons) to stinkers at about 1:5 or maybe even 1:10. For every Landman there's about 10 who've come in, been rubbish, and have fallen by the wayside.

So for me the concept is simple: buy established, quality foreign imports or not at all. Don't buy untried 21 year old Fiji props just to plug a hole. Go for an untried local lad instead. If we buy established, 'marquee' players it should be sort of self policing anyway - I.e. Regions will only be able to afford about 5 or 6 of them tops as they'll be expensive, so we won't be able to pack the team with NWQ's and block the development of local lads. They'll be quality so it should help get bums on seats and will help to bring on the skills of the up 'n coming youngsters in the regions. I'm all for it.

What I hate, as previously stated, is where we take a punt on foreign off casts who are not big names, can't get in their own teams, and end up being no better than our own regional academy products. So something we need to be better at (and we have been to a certain extent in recent seasons) is letting players flow more easily between regions if they can't get game time.

So for me, look intra-regionally first and if a position can't be filled reasonably then look to the wider world and quality, established, 'star' players, of which we the regions can only realistically afford a handful of. Simple!

go on then, I'll do a list of ten quality NWQ players to have signed for Dragons,you do a hundred...

The quality argument only stacks up if the NWQ limit is relaxed. Otherwise a foreign journeyman will probably make better financial sense than a WQ one.

Can't think of 10 quality ones to be honest Stone, but yes maybe my ratio is a bit high. All subjective of course, but we've had very few foreign signings that have excelled IMO.

Here you go, just for fun:

http://www.newportgwentdragons.com/Teams/PastPlayers

Just on the first page alone (A-D), here's the NWQ's. I spy with my little eye many less than impressive NWQ players. Which of these were really excellent and made a difference for the Dragons? Less than 10% in my opinion. In fairness some have only recently arrived and look OK so far, but none are marquee signings, none have set the world on fire and none have been 'unearthed gems'. Some had biggish reputations (e.g. Chavanga) but didn't live up to expectations (yes I know, coaches to blame for not giving them the right game plan to shine, etc.). A lot of the time the players below were ousted by local Welsh lads. I'm not advocating we go all homegrown though. As my post above says, let's spend the money on quality imports - 6 or 7 if we can afford it - and let the Welsh regional players make up the rest as history shows they're often just as good if not better.

Gerald Arasa
James Arlidge
Ross Beattie
Joe Bedford
Duncan Bell
Peter Braken
Kris Burton
Royce Cadman
Ben Castle
Tonderai Chavanga
Tom Cheeseman
Tom Cooper
Nick Crosswell
Ben Daly
Charlie Davies
Bruce Douglas

Bobby Skinstad is missing of that list Griff, also I thought Tom Cheeseman was Welsh, or Welsh qualified.

LordDowlais wrote:Bobby Skinstad is missing of that list Griff, also I thought Tom Cheeseman was Welsh, or Welsh qualified.

Skinstad starts with an 'S', LD! This is just the first page of the Dragons past players, surnames A-D. Feel free to go through the rest. I can't be bothered right now.

He was awful, by the way. Played a bit then asked to be released early so he could pursue business interests.

Cheeseman, yes sorry. Always thought he was a time serving player as he came from Bath RFC. But alas, he is Welsh. Rubbish for us though. Injured and couldn't oust the likes of Ashley Smith, if memory serves.

I got as far as I-L and got fed up christ on a bike, Dragons have had some rubbish NWQ playing for them, half of these must have had better Welsh players:-

Paul Emerick
Nic Fitisemanu
Lloyd Fairbrother
Adam Greendale
Andrew Hall
Nigel Hall
Brok Harris
Lee Harrison
Mike Hercus
Liegh Hinton
Danny Hodge
Simon Hunt
James Ireland
Ed Jackson
Matt Jess
Will Kershaw-Naylor
Shaun Knight
Danny Lee
Hal Luscombe
Alistair Lyon
Hoani Macdonald
Andy Marinos
Ali McKenzie
Carl Meyer

I got fed up after all those, there are a few on that list that were/are decent, but for the most they are a total waste of money. Do not know if he is on the list somewhere as I got bored, but a special mention should go to Tuilagi, I was down Rodney parade watching a game, and I laughed my head off when they were calling him hands like feet.

Anybody care to go through the rest of the list ?

And yet not a single Norton-Knight on the list! Surely he's king of the rubbish NWQ signings made by all the regions?

Anyway if the Ospreys own CEO is saying this then you figure that he's finally worked out the likes of Peers and most of those in PS XV aren't any good.

Marinos and Luscombe were Welsh though, and were actually pretty good for us. Will Kershaw-Naylor is a local lad too, even if he was born elsewhere. Still involved in Newport High School Old Boys I think.

There's a lot of 'filler' there though.

mikey_dragon wrote:And yet not a single Norton-Knight on the list! Surely he's king of the rubbish NWQ signings made by all the regions?

Yep, I went down the the Cardiff City stadium to watch his debut, what a crock of crap.

Griff wrote:Marinos and Luscombe were Welsh though, and were actually pretty good for us. Will Kershaw-Naylor is a local lad too, even if he was born elsewhere. Still involved in Newport High School Old Boys I think.

There's a lot of 'filler' there though.

Yeah, I did say there were a few decent one's. Do not know anything about Kershaw-Naylor though, in fact there are a few on that list I could say that about.

LordDowlais wrote:I got as far as I-L and got fed up christ on a bike, Dragons have had some rubbish NWQ playing for them, half of these must have had better Welsh players:-

Paul Emerick
Nic Fitisemanu
Lloyd Fairbrother
Adam Greendale
Andrew Hall
Nigel Hall
Brok Harris
Lee Harrison
Mike Hercus
Liegh Hinton
Danny Hodge
Simon Hunt
James Ireland
Ed Jackson
Matt Jess
Will Kershaw-Naylor
Shaun Knight
Danny Lee
Hal Luscombe
Alistair Lyon
Hoani Macdonald
Andy Marinos
Ali McKenzie
Carl Meyer

I got fed up after all those, there are a few on that list that were/are decent, but for the most they are a total waste of money. Do not know if he is on the list somewhere as I got bored, but a special mention should go to Tuilagi, I was down Rodney parade watching a game, and I laughed my head off when they were calling him hands like feet.

Anybody care to go through the rest of the list ?

A cretinous post. Some of those players listed have just achieved one of our best ever European results,all the while their 'young Welsh counterparts' were getting bummed like there was no tomorrow at home by Doncaster.

Stone motif, you are such a pleasure on this forum.

Griff wrote:Can't think of 10 quality ones to be honest Stone, but yes maybe my ratio is a bit high. All subjective of course, but we've had very few foreign signings that have excelled IMO.

Land man, Pretorious, Harris, Crosswell, Jackson, Meyer.... There's six just from this season who have been consistently good at pro 12/Challenge Cup level? I posted a team of WQ clowns hoes to have played for the Dragons a while back and challenged anyone to pick a woworse NWW team and no one could least of all Lord Click bait who clearly watches less Dragons games than there are gainfully employed people in Merthyr.

And you're still evading he point that equal to the general low quality Welsh Premiership filler we pack out our squad with they may be, but whilst there is a quota on Welsh players the average to poor Welsh players cost more.

Stone Motif wrote:

Griff wrote:Can't think of 10 quality ones to be honest Stone, but yes maybe my ratio is a bit high. All subjective of course, but we've had very few foreign signings that have excelled IMO.

Land man,  Pretorious,  Harris, Crosswell, Jackson, Meyer.... There's six just from this season who have been consistently good at pro 12/Challenge Cup level? I posted a team of WQ clowns hoes to have played for the Dragons a while back and challenged anyone to pick a woworse NWW team and no one could least of all Lord Click bait who clearly watches less Dragons games than there are gainfully employed people in Merthyr.

And you're still evading he point that equal to the general low quality Welsh Premiership filler we pack out our squad with they may be, but whilst there is a quota on Welsh players the average to poor Welsh players cost more.

[b]

I'm not in agreement with LD in the OP here. I agree with Hore to a certain extent - we could do with more NWQs. But not just any - they have to be decent.

I agree that the quota drives up the cost of Welsh players. I've posted about it many times. With a NWQ all of a sudden we're chucking silly money at Welsh boys who are sub-standard.  I'm suggesting that we scrap the quota because, as long as we buy more expensive 'marquee' type signings who are are generally more expensive (because you're buying quality), we won't need a quota because we won't be able to afford to fill our squads with NWQs. As I said, it's then self-policing. If the Dragons could splash their own cash on 7 quality NWQs then the remainder can go on local players, with the WRU mostly funding the DC players. Where we get in trouble is where we bulk buy cheap foreign players, because that way we can technically afford a squad full and that does nothing for local player development, the Welsh team or the region. That's when we need a quota. So scrap the quota and buy quality rather than quantity.

Stone Motif wrote: Lord Click bait who clearly watches less Dragons games than there are gainfully employed people in Merthyr.

What a wonderful human being you are.

LordDowlais wrote:

Stone Motif wrote: Lord Click bait who clearly watches less Dragons games than there are gainfully employed people in Merthyr.

What a wonderful human being you are.

What, writing off a load of people purely based on where they come from?

You'd never do that would you.

Griff wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

Griff wrote:Can't think of 10 quality ones to be honest Stone, but yes maybe my ratio is a bit high. All subjective of course, but we've had very few foreign signings that have excelled IMO.

Land man,  Pretorious,  Harris, Crosswell, Jackson, Meyer.... There's six just from this season who have been consistently good at pro 12/Challenge Cup level? I posted a team of WQ clowns hoes to have played for the Dragons a while back and challenged anyone to pick a woworse NWW team and no one could least of all Lord Click bait who clearly watches less Dragons games than there are gainfully employed people in Merthyr.

And you're still evading he point that equal to the general low quality Welsh Premiership filler we pack out our squad with they may be, but whilst there is a quota on Welsh players the average to poor Welsh players cost more.

[b]

I'm not in agreement with LD in the OP here. I agree with Hore to a certain extent - we could do with more NWQs. But not just any - they have to be decent.

I agree that the quota drives up the cost of Welsh players. I've posted about it many times. With a NWQ all of a sudden we're chucking silly money at Welsh boys who are sub-standard.  I'm suggesting that we scrap the quota because, as long as we buy more expensive 'marquee' type signings who are are generally more expensive (because you're buying quality), we won't need a quota because we won't be able to afford to fill our squads with NWQs. As I said, it's then self-policing. If the Dragons could splash their own cash on 7 quality NWQs then the remainder can go on local players, with the WRU mostly funding the DC players. Where we get in trouble is where we bulk buy cheap foreign players, because that way we can technically afford a squad full and that does nothing for local player development, the Welsh team or the region. That's when we need a quota. So scrap the quota and buy quality rather than quantity.

But you still need the filler. The player base in Wales is too small.

Stone Motif wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Stone Motif wrote: Lord Click bait who clearly watches less Dragons games than there are gainfully employed people in Merthyr.

What a wonderful human being you are.

What, writing off a load of people purely based on where they come from?

You'd never do that would you.

The thing is SM, I never said ALL the players in the list were rubbish. I said a few of them were decent, but there is also a waste of money in there. But you would rather base every single post you put on here with an aggressive, obnoxious and condescending tone. The thing is, it is fine to disagree, but you do it horribly.

Stone Motif wrote:

Griff wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

Griff wrote:Can't think of 10 quality ones to be honest Stone, but yes maybe my ratio is a bit high. All subjective of course, but we've had very few foreign signings that have excelled IMO.

Land man,  Pretorious,  Harris, Crosswell, Jackson, Meyer.... There's six just from this season who have been consistently good at pro 12/Challenge Cup level? I posted a team of WQ clowns hoes to have played for the Dragons a while back and challenged anyone to pick a woworse NWW team and no one could least of all Lord Click bait who clearly watches less Dragons games than there are gainfully employed people in Merthyr.

And you're still evading he point that equal to the general low quality Welsh Premiership filler we pack out our squad with they may be, but whilst there is a quota on Welsh players the average to poor Welsh players cost more.

[b]

I'm not in agreement with LD in the OP here. I agree with Hore to a certain extent - we could do with more NWQs. But not just any - they have to be decent.

I agree that the quota drives up the cost of Welsh players. I've posted about it many times. With a NWQ all of a sudden we're chucking silly money at Welsh boys who are sub-standard.  I'm suggesting that we scrap the quota because, as long as we buy more expensive 'marquee' type signings who are are generally more expensive (because you're buying quality), we won't need a quota because we won't be able to afford to fill our squads with NWQs. As I said, it's then self-policing. If the Dragons could splash their own cash on 7 quality NWQs then the remainder can go on local players, with the WRU mostly funding the DC players. Where we get in trouble is where we bulk buy cheap foreign players, because that way we can technically afford a squad full and that does nothing for local player development, the Welsh team or the region. That's when we need a quota. So scrap the quota and buy quality rather than quantity.

But you still need the filler. The player base in Wales is too small.

We manage to fill the squad now with a NWQ quota in place. So now we've been given extra cash each year, plus some players are having 60% of their wages paid, plus Faletau is off the books, we should look to upgrade some of our NWQs for better models. I reckon it can be done.

LordDowlais wrote:I got as far as I-L and got fed up christ on a bike, Dragons have had some rubbish NWQ playing for them, half of these must have had better Welsh players

So much easier to say than to prove.

No offence LD, but you have this misconception that there must be better Welsh players knocking around in the Premiership. Why must there be? Because they're Welsh? Does that automatically make them better players?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I got as far as I-L and got fed up christ on a bike, Dragons have had some rubbish NWQ playing for them, half of these must have had better Welsh players

So much easier to say than to prove.

No offence LD, but you have this misconception that there must be better Welsh players knocking around in the Premiership. Why must there be? Because they're Welsh? Does that automatically make them better players?

They do not necessarily have to be better, but just as good/crap. Take players like Paul Emerick, Mike Hercus, Nic Fitisemanu, Shaun Knight, Andrew Hall, Nigel Hall. Surely there were Welsh players in and around the regions who were gagging for game time who could have been given a punt instead.

You're doing it again. Why 'surely'? How do you know, or it it an assumption?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:You're doing it again. Why 'surely'? How do you know, or it it an assumption?

I have seen a lot of promising half decent Welsh players fall by the wayside for whatever reason. You cannot tell me Mike Hercus and Paul Emerick filled you with confidence when you signed them ? Come on. When they came to Wales, they were not that much of a higher standard than the players in the premiership, they were in the end though, thanks to Dragons.

LordDowlais wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:You're doing it again. Why 'surely'? How do you know, or it it an assumption?

I have seen a lot of promising half decent Welsh players fall by the wayside for whatever reason. You cannot tell me Mike Hercus and Paul Emerick filled you with confidence when you signed them ? Come on. When they came to Wales, they were not that much of a higher standard than the players in the premiership, they were in the end though, thanks to Dragons

But enough of a higher standard, which is why they were brought in.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:But a higher standard, which is why they were brought in.

What did they add to Dragons ? What legacy have they left behind ? They are forgotten men, the same as any prem player would be forgotten now.

Can you name Welsh players who were better and should have played instead of them?

I sort of agree with LD here to a certain extent. In theory, the coaches were afraid of playing youngsters like Aled Thomas and Jason Tovey. So they brought in players like James Arlidge (cos he was a Kiwi therefore better), Mike Hercus (cos he was an international and therefore better), Kris Burton (cos he was an international and therefore better). But they weren't better, and would have been on higher wages at the time than the young Welsh lads.

Like I said, in theory and on paper these players seemed better. It was worth the experiment for scientific purposes I suppose. But let's use the past to inform our future practice - scraping the barrel, be it the Welsh barrel or the wider world rugby barrel, does not solve the problems. At least with the youngsters if they're not great then you can coach them and teach them new tricks. If your NWQ 34 year old fly half turns out to be garbage what're ya gonna teach him? So I maintain that the signings need to be quality and then the rest can be filled from local talent and young prospects rather than failing older players or similarly un-proven players from far flung club squads around the world.

We seem to be trusting the youngsters now, however let us not forget we have brought others through at fly-half such as Stef Jones, Lewis Robling and AOB - after early promise they were given regular rugby and each found wanting.

They actually did OK in my opinion (not Robling - he was always better as a centre but was asked to play 10 for Dragons and suffered), but Kris Burton was still brought in and he was no better, again IMO.

Griff wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

Griff wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

Griff wrote:Can't think of 10 quality ones to be honest Stone, but yes maybe my ratio is a bit high. All subjective of course, but we've had very few foreign signings that have excelled IMO.

Land man,  Pretorious,  Harris, Crosswell, Jackson, Meyer.... There's six just from this season who have been consistently good at pro 12/Challenge Cup level? I posted a team of WQ clowns hoes to have played for the Dragons a while back and challenged anyone to pick a woworse NWW team and no one could least of all Lord Click bait who clearly watches less Dragons games than there are gainfully employed people in Merthyr.

And you're still evading he point that equal to the general low quality Welsh Premiership filler we pack out our squad with they may be, but whilst there is a quota on Welsh players the average to poor Welsh players cost more.

[b]

I'm not in agreement with LD in the OP here. I agree with Hore to a certain extent - we could do with more NWQs. But not just any - they have to be decent.

I agree that the quota drives up the cost of Welsh players. I've posted about it many times. With a NWQ all of a sudden we're chucking silly money at Welsh boys who are sub-standard.  I'm suggesting that we scrap the quota because, as long as we buy more expensive 'marquee' type signings who are are generally more expensive (because you're buying quality), we won't need a quota because we won't be able to afford to fill our squads with NWQs. As I said, it's then self-policing. If the Dragons could splash their own cash on 7 quality NWQs then the remainder can go on local players, with the WRU mostly funding the DC players. Where we get in trouble is where we bulk buy cheap foreign players, because that way we can technically afford a squad full and that does nothing for local player development, the Welsh team or the region. That's when we need a quota. So scrap the quota and buy quality rather than quantity.

But you still need the filler. The player base in Wales is too small.

We manage to fill the squad now with a NWQ quota in place. So now we've been given extra cash each year, plus some players are having 60% of their wages paid, plus Faletau is off the books, we should look to upgrade some of our NWQs for better models. I reckon it can be done.

The 'filler' as you're calling it should be a player who can consistently perform at club level. The English and French seem to be able to bring through high quality club players in abundance where as we seem to have either one of international standard player, and below average club player. So whilst we should look to bring through as many internationals as possible we also need to be looking out for own interests. Faletau's replacements are Crosswell and Jackson - IMO both are very able and much better than whom I've seen in the PS XV.

As for the PS XV it's in its early years but it will grow. I think what it is doing now is developing future 'fillers' as that's how I see most of the players in there now, becoming good squad players and nothing more; there are some who I think will be internationals however - Joe Davies, Ollie Griffiths, Leon Brown. They've all shown the early promise, but then again I could be wrong as it's hard to tell right now.

Griff wrote:They actually did OK in my opinion (not Robling - he was always better as a centre but was asked to play 10 for Dragons and suffered), but Kris Burton was still brought in and he was no better, again IMO.

Well yeah they did do okay, but after a while they didn't really push on and became out of their depth. AOB from what I can tell is the most promising and will probably come back to us and be able to play at Tovey and Dorian Jones' level. BTW aren't Robling and Jones playing in the championship in England? That just goes to show... You're right on Burton but I believe he was intended to be a replacement for one of these? The trouble with Burton is that he was capable of a stormer one week and then could lose you the game the next.

Burton didn't have any stormers with us, if memory serves!

My point is that we should either play those players mentioned, seeing as we've spent a lot of time and effort getting them to this point, coach them, give them game time and let them improve and/or bring in a real quality outside half to add competition and quality, plus mentorship. A proven performer and current/ex international in his prime (if we can get one). But not bring in someone like Burton who was not that great before we signed him. I know it's all subjective, but I can't see how he was considered better than what we had.

I also admit it's very tricky and different coaches (who can come and go midway through players' contracts) will want diffent things and try to find players who are a good fit for their own plans. But I just want the money spent more wisely where possible.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Can you name Welsh players who were better and should have played instead of them?

Beat me to it.

Burton wasn't Lyn's signing, was he? To be fair before he came back, Jason Tovey said to me he thought Burton would have a fair chance of being the controlling ten we needed. He never really got a chance when we then signed Tovey and given that he wasn't Lyn's player the writing was on the wall for him.

I don't see what's wrong with Nigel Hall as one of our players. He was a pretty decent scrummager for us and it's not his fault he got injured.

Risca Rev wrote:Burton wasn't Lyn's signing, was he? To be fair before he came back, Jason Tovey said to me he thought Burton would have a fair chance of being the controlling ten we needed. He never really got a chance when we then signed Tovey and given that he wasn't Lyn's player the writing was on the wall for him.

I don't see what's wrong with Nigel Hall as one of our players. He was a pretty decent scrummager for us and it's not his fault he got injured.

I'd say we have been crying out for a controlling ten since Warlow hung up his boots. An as one of the lowliest pro teams in Europe with a fraction of the budget of any of our competitors, I'd say Burton was worth the punt. As mentioned there is a raft of Welsh talent that's been tried and failed to convince.

Then we stay the same then? Carry on as we are? Next year and the year after, and the year after, with the same NWQ quota, same 'punts' being taken on the scraps left over after the top teams have taken their pick. Don't target any big name signings. Dont challenge the NWQ quota thing. Don't bring home Welsh internationals either. Feel sorry for ourselves as we wallow as 'Wales 4th region' into infinity. Excellent. Good times.

Griff wrote:Then we stay the same then? Carry on as we are? Next year and the year after, and the year after, with the same NWQ quota, same 'punts' being taken on the scraps left over after the top teams have taken their pick. Don't target any big name signings. Dont challenge the NWQ quota thing. Don't bring home Welsh internationals either. Feel sorry for ourselves as we wallow as 'Wales 4th region' into infinity. Excellent. Good times.

Sorry, but arguing the toss over whether the Burtons and Chavangas of this world were decent signings is a world away from the change that's needed at the top of the organisation before any of that alters.

Hey come on now. Harris, Landman and Pretorious were pretty good punts . Was Aled Thomas always a Dragon? I don't seem to remember much of him, but he's going well with the Scarlets nowadays.

Griff wrote:Then we stay the same then? Carry on as we are? Next year and the year after, and the year after, with the same NWQ quota, same 'punts' being taken on the scraps left over after the top teams have taken their pick. Don't target any big name signings. Dont challenge the NWQ quota thing. Don't bring home Welsh internationals either. Feel sorry for ourselves as we wallow as 'Wales 4th region' into infinity. Excellent. Good times.

The Dragons have tried to bring back Welsh internationals, but we're not as attractive a proposition as at least two of the other regions. That's not 'wallowing,' that's a fact. Not one that can't be changed over time, but at present, a fact.

On the subject of facts, there is no point in the Dragons targeting big-name signings they have no hope of securing. If Lydiate and Charteris don't want to come back, what makes you think a first-class southern-hemisphere player will want to come? It's not as if we have the money to make it worth their while. I'm all for ambition, but not if it's unrealistic. You have to pick your fights. That's not pessimism, it's realism.

What feasible changes do you want to see?