Welsh Regions must be allowed more foreign players to compete, insists Ospreys chief Andrew Hore

by LordDowlais Tue 22 Dec 2015, 9:24 am

First topic message reminder :

I'm sorry Andrew, but you are talking out of your rear end. We only have 4 Pro teams in Wales, we cannot afford to jam pack them with NWQ players, I think the amount now is too much. Andrew Hore should look at working harder to develop Welsh talent rather than trying to plug holes with NWQ players, do anyone else think he is right ?

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/welsh-regions-must-allowed-more-10635797

Come on Hore pull the other one, it has bells on.

by Guest Wed 23 Dec 2015, 2:11 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Risca Rev wrote:Shaun Knight has represented the England Saxons. But yeah, you think he's rubbish, so you're right.

He has represented the Saxons, so it makes him better than a Welsh player who has represented the Wales U21's does it ?

Oh dear me. That just about sums you up.

England U21s are better than Wales U21s. England obviously consider Saxons as the next step up, so what do you think?

But the point was, you rather ignorantly said he has done nothing.

by LordDowlais Wed 23 Dec 2015, 2:13 pm

Griff wrote:But proven Super Rugby boys - f*uck yeah! Get 'em in.

This 100%

Griff wrote:players from Cornish Pirates, Doncaster, Viadana,

This again 100%. That is why I questioned the Brendan Leonard signing, especially when Ospreys have about a million scrum halves on their books.

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 23 Dec 2015, 2:23 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I said 'if'. If, by every measure they have, the regions conclude that there is no available Welshman of a sufficient standard, but there is an available non-Welshman of a sufficient standard, would you rather they played a worse, Welsh, player?

But we would never know would we ? Because we go straight to your option far too often, without even considering the alternatives.

Okay, it seems you're unfamiliar with the concept of the theoretical question...

by Guest Wed 23 Dec 2015, 2:55 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Griff wrote:But proven Super Rugby boys - f*uck yeah! Get 'em in.

This 100%

Griff wrote:players from Cornish Pirates, Doncaster, Viadana,

This again 100%. That is why I questioned the Brendan Leonard signing, especially when Ospreys have about a million scrum halves on their books.

Ah, now. That's where we disagree. Brendon Leonard, whilst coming from Zebre (It think?), has S15 pedigree and a few All Blacks caps. Plus, he was on good form for Zebre. Decent player.

by LordDowlais Wed 23 Dec 2015, 3:11 pm

Griff wrote:Ah, now. That's where we disagree. Brendon Leonard, whilst coming from Zebre (It think?), has S15 pedigree and a few All Blacks caps. Plus, he was on good form for Zebre. Decent player.

But not needed by Ospreys. They have Rhys Webb, Martyn Roberts, Tom Habberfield, Tom Grabham (now a wing), Brendon Leonard.

Brendon Leonard is now 1st choice as Webb is injured, I would have much rather seen Tom Habberfield as first choice with Roberts as back up.

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 23 Dec 2015, 3:15 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Griff wrote:Ah, now. That's where we disagree. Brendon Leonard, whilst coming from Zebre (It think?), has S15 pedigree and a few All Blacks caps. Plus, he was on good form for Zebre. Decent player.

But not needed by Ospreys. They have Rhys Webb, Martyn Roberts, Tom Habberfield, Tom Grabham (now a wing), Brendon Leonard.

Brendon Leonard is now 1st choice as Webb is injured, I would have much rather seen Tom Habberfield as first choice with Roberts as back up.

Not needed by the Ospreys in your opinion. Evidently the Ospreys themselves didn't think the players they had (other than Webb) were good enough, so they went out and signed one.

Let me ask you this: if they'd gone and signed a Welsh scrum half, would you have a problem with it?

by mikey_dragon Wed 23 Dec 2015, 3:18 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Griff wrote:But proven Super Rugby boys - f*uck yeah! Get 'em in.

This 100%

Well earlier you said that if their 'super 12' team were letting them go then they're rubbish, a waste of time, etc. So once again you seem to have contradicted yourself.

by Guest Wed 23 Dec 2015, 3:20 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Griff wrote:Ah, now. That's where we disagree. Brendon Leonard, whilst coming from Zebre (It think?), has S15 pedigree and a few All Blacks caps. Plus, he was on good form for Zebre. Decent player.

But not needed by Ospreys. They have Rhys Webb, Martyn Roberts, Tom Habberfield, Tom Grabham (now a wing), Brendon Leonard.

Brendon Leonard is now 1st choice as Webb is injured, I would have much rather seen Tom Habberfield as first choice with Roberts as back up.

Hmmm. Well, knowing Leonard and a bit of his history and playing background I would rate him above Roberts, Habberfield and Grabham so IMO it's a valid buy. Had the Osprey's instead gone for an unproven Italy U21 scrum half then I would have questioned whether the player was better than Roberts, Habberfied or Grabham. So on this occasion, it was the right call I think.

by LordDowlais Wed 23 Dec 2015, 3:24 pm

Griff wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Griff wrote:Ah, now. That's where we disagree. Brendon Leonard, whilst coming from Zebre (It think?), has S15 pedigree and a few All Blacks caps. Plus, he was on good form for Zebre. Decent player.

But not needed by Ospreys. They have Rhys Webb, Martyn Roberts, Tom Habberfield, Tom Grabham (now a wing), Brendon Leonard.

Brendon Leonard is now 1st choice as Webb is injured, I would have much rather seen Tom Habberfield as first choice with Roberts as back up.

Hmmm. Well, knowing Leonard and a bit of his history and playing background I would rate him above Roberts, Habberfield and Grabham so IMO it's a valid buy. Had the Osprey's instead gone for an unproven Italy U21 scrum half then I would have questioned whether the player was better than Roberts, Habberfied or Grabham. So on this occasion, it was the right call I think.

Like they did last season with Tito Tibaldi ? Another waste of money spent by our regions.

by mikey_dragon Wed 23 Dec 2015, 3:29 pm

You kind of knew that was coming...

by Guest Wed 23 Dec 2015, 3:51 pm

Yes, on that occasion I personally don't feel that he was better than the players at the O's at the time.

by Stone Motif Wed 23 Dec 2015, 4:07 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Griff wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Griff wrote:Ah, now. That's where we disagree. Brendon Leonard, whilst coming from Zebre (It think?), has S15 pedigree and a few All Blacks caps. Plus, he was on good form for Zebre. Decent player.

But not needed by Ospreys. They have Rhys Webb, Martyn Roberts, Tom Habberfield, Tom Grabham (now a wing), Brendon Leonard.

Brendon Leonard is now 1st choice as Webb is injured, I would have much rather seen Tom Habberfield as first choice with Roberts as back up.

Hmmm. Well, knowing Leonard and a bit of his history and playing background I would rate him above Roberts, Habberfield and Grabham so IMO it's a valid buy. Had the Osprey's instead gone for an unproven Italy U21 scrum half then I would have questioned whether the player was better than Roberts, Habberfied or Grabham. So on this occasion, it was the right call I think.

Like they did last season with Tito Tibaldi ? Another waste of money spent by our regions.

As big a waste of money as signing Roberts, who is likely on more money?

by LordDowlais Wed 23 Dec 2015, 4:26 pm

Stone Motif wrote:As big a waste of money as signing Roberts, who is likely on more money?

But at least he is Welsh, and can potentially represent Wales, which is what it is all about isn't it ?

Please note I used the word potentially, and not nailed on, or dead cert, or words to that affect.

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 23 Dec 2015, 4:29 pm

To you, Dowlais, yes this is what it's all about. It's good that you've finally admitted it.

by LordDowlais Wed 23 Dec 2015, 4:34 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:To you, Dowlais, yes this is what it's all about. It's good that you've finally admitted it.

Admitted what ?

by mikey_dragon Wed 23 Dec 2015, 4:53 pm

Roberts was good at the Scarlets and Dragons, much better than Tavis Knoyle who was getting Wales honours Headscratch

. He went to Northampton, fell down the pecking order and after a while came back to Ospreys a shadow of the player he was. At least Tebaldi was gaining international honours at the time.

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 23 Dec 2015, 4:54 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:To you, Dowlais, yes this is what it's all about. It's good that you've finally admitted it.

Admitted what ?

That your objection to NWQs is less to do with their quality and more to do with their nationality.

by mikey_dragon Wed 23 Dec 2015, 5:25 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:To you, Dowlais, yes this is what it's all about. It's good that you've finally admitted it.

Admitted what ?

That your objection to NWQs is less to do with their quality and more to do with their nationality.

Given that he isn't objecting to a certain 10 from the championship is rumoured to be joining 'his team' then yeah, you would think it is exactly that.

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 23 Dec 2015, 5:33 pm

And when that player will potentially block the progress of a young up-and-coming Welsh player.

by Cardiff Dave Wed 23 Dec 2015, 5:43 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:To you, Dowlais, yes this is what it's all about. It's good that you've finally admitted it.

Admitted what ?

That your objection to NWQs is less to do with their quality and more to do with their nationality.

Given that he isn't objecting to a certain 10 from the championship is rumoured to be joining 'his team' then yeah, you would think it is exactly that.

The Lord's team is obviously Wales.

by Cardiff Dave Wed 23 Dec 2015, 5:49 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Stone Motif wrote:As big a waste of money as signing Roberts, who is likely on more money?

But at least he is Welsh, and can potentially represent Wales, which is what it is all about isn't it ?

Please note I used the word potentially, and not nailed on, or dead cert, or words to that affect.

Loads of Welsh players already employed by the 4, who will very probably never represent Wales though.

by Stone Motif Wed 23 Dec 2015, 6:24 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Stone Motif wrote:As big a waste of money as signing Roberts, who is likely on more money?

But at least he is Welsh, and can potentially represent Wales, which is what it is all about isn't it ?

Please note I used the word potentially, and not nailed on, or dead cert, or words to that affect.

Yeah, right. Roger Lewis' thought process went similar.

by Cardiff Dave Wed 23 Dec 2015, 6:28 pm

Stone Motif wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Stone Motif wrote:As big a waste of money as signing Roberts, who is likely on more money?

But at least he is Welsh, and can potentially represent Wales, which is what it is all about isn't it ?

Please note I used the word potentially, and not nailed on, or dead cert, or words to that affect.

Yeah, right. Roger Lewis' thought process went similar.

Aye and the old PA stated that the number of NWQs was to be reduced, beginning at the start of this season IIRC.

by Cardiff Dave Wed 23 Dec 2015, 6:38 pm

LordDowlais wrote:I'm sorry Andrew, but you are talking out of your rear end. We only have 4 Pro teams in Wales, we cannot afford to jam pack them with NWQ players, I think the amount now is too much. Andrew Hore should look at working harder to develop Welsh talent rather than trying to plug holes with NWQ players, do anyone else think he is right ?

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/welsh-regions-must-allowed-more-10635797

Come on Hore pull the other one, it has bells on.

Just read the article and I agree with Andrew Hore. To add, i've agreed with much that he has said over many years.

by Stone Motif Wed 23 Dec 2015, 6:46 pm

Cardiff Dave wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:I'm sorry Andrew, but you are talking out of your rear end. We only have 4 Pro teams in Wales, we cannot afford to jam pack them with NWQ players, I think the amount now is too much. Andrew Hore should look at working harder to develop Welsh talent rather than trying to plug holes with NWQ players, do anyone else think he is right ?

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/welsh-regions-must-allowed-more-10635797

Come on Hore pull the other one, it has bells on.

Just read the article and I agree with Andrew Hore. To add, i've agreed with much that he has said over many years.

Even the OTR b0llocks?

by wayne Wed 23 Dec 2015, 6:46 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Griff wrote:Ah, now. That's where we disagree. Brendon Leonard, whilst coming from Zebre (It think?), has S15 pedigree and a few All Blacks caps. Plus, he was on good form for Zebre. Decent player.

But not needed by Ospreys. They have Rhys Webb, Martyn Roberts, Tom Habberfield, Tom Grabham (now a wing), Brendon Leonard.

Brendon Leonard is now 1st choice as Webb is injured, I would have much rather seen Tom Habberfield as first choice with Roberts as back up.

Lord, Martyn Roberts is useless he is nowhere near the class of Leonard, he does not attack around the fringes, his defence is abysmal and he is charged down when box kicking very often as he is too slow, go and have a look on our forum to see what he is thought of. Grabham is a wing and has been classed as a wing for about 3 or 4 years, way before either Leonard or Tebaldi joined us. It is a good battle at the moment between Brendon and Habbers, as somebody above has said is a S15 player with (think) 10 to 20 All Black caps. If you really remember we signed Tebaldi because of Fotuali'i leaving, a vastly diminishing budget and Rhys Webb costing us a top 4 finish because of a few inept performances (Ulster and Glasgow in particular) in the previous season.
Many (me included) have questioned the wisdom of bringing Roberts back into our squad, now if there is a waste of money he is a perfect of it. Welsh or not.
Let me finish by saying you've said this before, and I've given you the same information in response, what is it going to take for you to take the advice of somebody who watches my team a lot more often than you do?

by Stone Motif Wed 23 Dec 2015, 6:54 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:And when that player will potentially block the progress of a young up-and-coming Welsh player.

Brilliant isn't it? Never mind that the Morgans and Roberts of this world also potentially drag 14 other potential Welsh caps down to their sh7tty level, so long as they are honing the skills that the rugby mad Welsh public would happily pay to see,instead of all this foreign rubbish. Food for thought?

by Cardiff Dave Wed 23 Dec 2015, 6:56 pm

Stone Motif wrote:
Cardiff Dave wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:I'm sorry Andrew, but you are talking out of your rear end. We only have 4 Pro teams in Wales, we cannot afford to jam pack them with NWQ players, I think the amount now is too much. Andrew Hore should look at working harder to develop Welsh talent rather than trying to plug holes with NWQ players, do anyone else think he is right ?

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/welsh-regions-must-allowed-more-10635797

Come on Hore pull the other one, it has bells on.

Just read the article and I agree with Andrew Hore. To add, i've agreed with much that he has said over many years.

Even the OTR b0llocks?

That's why I said "much". Apart from that he's been on the ball I spose. Wonder if the OTR thing is meant to rattle cages and take the mick coz it is as you say, "b0llocks".

by Cardiff Dave Wed 23 Dec 2015, 7:33 pm

Stone Motif wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:And when that player will potentially block the progress of a young up-and-coming Welsh player.

Brilliant isn't it? Never mind that the Morgans and Roberts of this world also potentially drag 14 other potential Welsh caps down to their sh7tty level, so long as they are honing the skills that the rugby mad Welsh public would happily pay to see,instead of all this foreign rubbish. Food for thought?

And I bet that many of those paying to watch Rush, Tito, Blair, etc at CAP didn't know whether these players were Welsh or not. I bet many didn't give a toss for that matter. Also, Jonah Lomu.....

by Kingshu Wed 23 Dec 2015, 7:50 pm

Don't think more is the answer but better quality is, we can track the decline of NWQ players in Wales, these are a few of the best NWQ teams we've made over the years.

NWQ (2010) http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A71759514

15 - Blair (NZ)
14 - Bowe (IRE)
13 - King (NZ)
12 - Lualala (NZ)
11 - Lamont (SCO)
10 - Parks (SCO)
9 - Nutbrown (NZ)

8 - Rush (NZ)
7 - Hollah (NZ)
6 - Collins (NZ)
5 - Molitika (FIJ) (was Tito but he is technically qualified)
4 - Paterson (NZ)
3 - Filisse (TON)
2 - Willis (NZ)
1 - Manu (FIJ)

NWQ (2012) https://www.606v2.com/t36783-niq-v-nwq

1) Campese Ma'Afu, 2) Andy Kyriacou, 3) Jacobia Adriaanse
4) Tomas Vallejos, 5) Johan Snyman
6) Robin Copeland, 8) George Stowers, 7) Andries Pretoirous
9) Joe Bedford, 10) Kahn Fotuali'i
11) Hanno Dirksen, 12) Andy Tuilagi, 13) ???, 14) Tonderai Chavanga
15) Jamie Smith

NWQ 2015 (these can be debated)

1) Taufa'ao Filise / Dmitri Arhip
2) ????
3) Salesi Ma'afu / Ma'afu Fia
4) Jarrad Hoeata
5) Maselino Paulino
6) Manoa Vosawai
7) John Barclay
8) Joe Bearman
9) Brendon Leonard
10) Josh Matavesi
11) Michael Tagicakibau / Hanno Dirksen
12) Rey Lee-Lo
13) Regan King
14) D. T. H. van der Merwe
15) Carl Meyer

I think the 2010 team would beat both the 2012 and 2015 teams, but I do think that the 2015 team would beat the 2012 team.

Maybe its a sign that the Welsh regions are receiving and 2012 was a low point in attracting talent.

by Guest Wed 23 Dec 2015, 9:02 pm

Cardiff Dave wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:To you, Dowlais, yes this is what it's all about. It's good that you've finally admitted it.

Admitted what ?

That your objection to NWQs is less to do with their quality and more to do with their nationality.

Given that he isn't objecting to a certain 10 from the championship is rumoured to be joining 'his team' then yeah, you would think it is exactly that.

The Lord's team is obviously Wales.

Don't forget Wales (better than England Saxons) U21s

by Cardiff Dave Wed 23 Dec 2015, 9:13 pm

Risca Rev wrote:
Cardiff Dave wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:To you, Dowlais, yes this is what it's all about. It's good that you've finally admitted it.

Admitted what ?

That your objection to NWQs is less to do with their quality and more to do with their nationality.

Given that he isn't objecting to a certain 10 from the championship is rumoured to be joining 'his team' then yeah, you would think it is exactly that.

The Lord's team is obviously Wales.

Don't forget Wales (better than England Saxons) U21s

And the 7s.

by Shifty Sat 26 Dec 2015, 5:58 pm

Welsh regions can't afford the better foreign players anymore and we have enough rubbish non welsh players at the regions already. Hore should shut his trap and stick to the terms of the latest loyalty agreement, as soon as a new deal is signed the ospreys are always the first ones to start whining about the terms of it. Start shipping out some of the garbage in the squad like jarvis and fussel, eli walker as well if he can't stay fit, the boy seems to be made of glass.

by Guest Sat 26 Dec 2015, 8:44 pm

So all the Welsh players then laughing

by Stone Motif Sat 26 Dec 2015, 9:32 pm

Risca Rev wrote:So all the Welsh players then

by Guest Sat 26 Dec 2015, 9:36 pm

Shifty wrote:Welsh regions can't afford the better foreign players anymore and we have enough rubbish non welsh players at the regions already. Hore should shut his trap and stick to the terms of the latest loyalty agreement, as soon as a new deal is signed the ospreys are always the first ones to start whining about the terms of it. Start shipping out some of the garbage in the squad like jarvis and fussel, eli walker as well if he can't stay fit, the boy seems to be made of glass.

So we can't afford good foreign players, we have too many rubbish non-Welsh players and we need to get rid of Welsh players (2 of which are deemed good enough for the Welsh training squad). So who would you replace them with exactly?!

Ahh, don't tell me - someone from another region? Who???

by GavinDragon Sun 27 Dec 2015, 10:13 am

Griff wrote:Can't think of 10 quality ones to be honest Stone, but yes maybe my ratio is a bit high. All subjective of course, but we've had very few foreign signings that have excelled IMO.

Landman
Sarel Pretorious
Brok Harris
Boris Stankovic
Tom Willis
Haoni Macdonald
Nic Fitisimanu
Percy Montgomery (appreciate this was a Newport signing)
Adam Black (was English)
Tonderai Chavanga (debatable)

Thats all I can think of

by GavinDragon Sun 27 Dec 2015, 10:23 am

Stone Motif wrote:
Griff wrote:
Stone Motif wrote:
Griff wrote:Can't think of 10 quality ones to be honest Stone, but yes maybe my ratio is a bit high. All subjective of course, but we've had very few foreign signings that have excelled IMO.

Land man, Pretorious, Harris, Crosswell, Jackson, Meyer.... There's six just from this season who have been consistently good at pro 12/Challenge Cup level? I posted a team of WQ clowns hoes to have played for the Dragons a while back and challenged anyone to pick a woworse NWW team and no one could least of all Lord Click bait who clearly watches less Dragons games than there are gainfully employed people in Merthyr.

And you're still evading he point that equal to the general low quality Welsh Premiership filler we pack out our squad with they may be, but whilst there is a quota on Welsh players the average to poor Welsh players cost more.
[b]

I'm not in agreement with LD in the OP here. I agree with Hore to a certain extent - we could do with more NWQs. But not just any - they have to be decent.

I agree that the quota drives up the cost of Welsh players. I've posted about it many times. With a NWQ all of a sudden we're chucking silly money at Welsh boys who are sub-standard. I'm suggesting that we scrap the quota because, as long as we buy more expensive 'marquee' type signings who are are generally more expensive (because you're buying quality), we won't need a quota because we won't be able to afford to fill our squads with NWQs. As I said, it's then self-policing. If the Dragons could splash their own cash on 7 quality NWQs then the remainder can go on local players, with the WRU mostly funding the DC players. Where we get in trouble is where we bulk buy cheap foreign players, because that way we can technically afford a squad full and that does nothing for local player development, the Welsh team or the region. That's when we need a quota. So scrap the quota and buy quality rather than quantity.

But you still need the filler. The player base in Wales is too small.

Agreed. Did the figures, there are approx 80 pro players playing in the top two divisions in France and England.

Say there are 35 Welsh pros per region - 140 in Wales. That is a professional* pool of 220 rugby players for Gats to choose from.

I think foreign players are a necessary evil. But only in certain positions. And I think we have to acknowledge how the academies are not really bearing fruit in certain positions. For example, we now have four very good opensides in Wales, each getting game time each week with each region. We are also fairly well stocked at scrum half and outside half. This will only continue year on year.

However, there are some positions and type of players which we always struggle for depth in. No8 & TH's being a prime example.

I think 6 NWQ is about right. If you recruit wisely, you can use those slots to recruit good, seasoned leaders to give you a spine which should serve you well when your internationals are away.

I think the Ospreys haven't recruited well from overseas in a couple of seasons.

*bear in mind some of these play in the second tier of the English league

by True Raven Sun 27 Dec 2015, 11:23 am

Considering the financial constraints upon the regions the last few years, I think the Ospreys have done pretty well with their overseas signings in the last few years.....arhip, ardron, hassler, matevasi, are key players for the ospreys. In terms of the Brendon leanord debate, last year martin Roberts was back up to Rhys Webb and was awful, tom grabham hasn't been a scrum half since playing for Bridgend and with the world cup this year, we were left with tom habberfield who hadn't progressed since his under 20s days so an overseas signing was a must.

by GavinDragon Sun 27 Dec 2015, 11:26 am

Yes, but when you compare those signings to Rynard Landman, Brok Harris and Sarel Pretorious you see the difference.

by True Raven Sun 27 Dec 2015, 11:28 am

And in terms of regions filling the squad with welsh qualified players because one day they could eventually play for wales is a crazy and the reason why welsh teams would never compete with other countries. Ospreys have brought in welsh players like cai Griffiths, martin Roberts, Jonathon spratt etc who are never going to be good enough to play wales so bringing in quality overseas players are a must to improve the team

by wayne Sun 27 Dec 2015, 12:23 pm

True Raven wrote:Considering the financial constraints upon the regions the last few years, I think the Ospreys have done pretty well with their overseas signings in the last few years.....arhip, ardron, hassler, matevasi, are key players for the ospreys. In terms of the Brendon leanord debate, last year martin Roberts was back up to Rhys Webb and was awful, tom grabham hasn't been a scrum half since playing for Bridgend and with the world cup this year, we were left with tom habberfield who hadn't progressed since his under 20s days so an overseas signing was a must.

Raven good post, been saying the same for a fair while on here, but you have to admit Habbers has come on leaps and bounds this year, I wouldn't mind either him or Brendon starting until Rhys is back fully fit.

by wayne Sun 27 Dec 2015, 12:27 pm

GavinDragon wrote:Yes, but when you compare those signings to Rynard Landman, Brok Harris and Sarel Pretorious you see the difference.

Gavin the only one who I would have in my first choice 15 is Landman, if as I expect Fia comes good and Webb comes back I wouldn't want either of the other 2 in a match day 23, sorry.

by GavinDragon Sun 27 Dec 2015, 1:07 pm

yes when all your internationals are there I would agree. However, when Webb is away Pretorious would be good to have around. I also think Harris is better than Arron Jarvis and Cai Griffiths.

by True Raven Sun 27 Dec 2015, 1:11 pm

Pretorius is quality and would prefer him over Leonard and think he would have a field day behind our pack the way they're playing atm. However arhip (in terms of value) must be on his way to being one of our best signings we've made. Good ball carrier and holds his own in the scrum (see clermont and Bordeaux)and he probably hasnt cost us much at all.

by wayne Sun 27 Dec 2015, 1:50 pm

GavinDragon wrote:yes when all your internationals are there I would agree. However, when Webb is away Pretorious would be good to have around. I also think Harris is better than Arron Jarvis and Cai Griffiths.

Gavin I already said if Fia comes to be as good as he should, or what he showed when in NZ, he will be far superior to Harris, no disagreement from me on the 2 you've quoted and as Raven said Arhip is coming to be close to a legend down our way, fantastic signing and I presume very cheap, there will be a large increase in his wages when his contract comes up for renewal. As for Pretorious I wouldn't swap our 2 at the moment and the reputed one we have coming in for next season for him. We need our NWQ to be either first choice or very close to it, when the Welsh Internationals are away they have to step right in and Habberfield and Leonard have shown they are more than adequate in that respect, even Martin Roberts didn't have a bad cameo yesterday, and that is saying a lot for me, I just hope he doesn't prove me wrong on Friday ( let him have his barnstorming game of the week today).

by Guest Sun 27 Dec 2015, 4:02 pm

GavinDragon wrote:
Griff wrote:Can't think of 10 quality ones to be honest Stone, but yes maybe my ratio is a bit high. All subjective of course, but we've had very few foreign signings that have excelled IMO.

Landman
Sarel Pretorious
Brok Harris
Boris Stankovic
Tom Willis
Haoni Macdonald
Nic Fitisimanu
Percy Montgomery (appreciate this was a Newport signing)
Adam Black (was English)
Tonderai Chavanga (debatable)

Thats all I can think of

The top 4 were Lyn's signings, and like I said he's made some astute ones. These being them.

I really didn't think Tom Willis was any good. Might have been a good captain. He could speak well on camera (!), but was he really someone who improved the Dragons? I think Lloyd Burns came straight off the building site and dislodged him from the team. Again, a signing based largely on being an ex all black I feel.

McDonald was good. Fitesemanu was decent but didn't stay long did he (can't remember). Black was good. Chavanga was poor IMO. Considering the volume of NWQs since 2003 I think that's a pretty low success rate, and most have been within the current coach's reign.

Like I said though, I'm not anti NWQs. On the contrary I'm all for it. But they just need to be proven operators and not 'punts', IMO. Say no to punts! History tells us it's unlikely that they'll be successful. If it's a punt, take the punt on a local/academy player. If a proven operator becomes available then go for it I say.

by mikey_dragon Sun 27 Dec 2015, 6:01 pm

wayne wrote:
GavinDragon wrote:yes when all your internationals are there I would agree. However, when Webb is away Pretorious would be good to have around. I also think Harris is better than Arron Jarvis and Cai Griffiths.

Gavin I already said if Fia comes to be as good as he should, or what he showed when in NZ, he will be far superior to Harris, no disagreement from me on the 2 you've quoted and as Raven said Arhip is coming to be close to a legend down our way, fantastic signing and I presume very cheap, there will be a large increase in his wages when his contract comes up for renewal. As for Pretorious I wouldn't swap our 2 at the moment and the reputed one we have coming in for next season for him. We need our NWQ to be either first choice or very close to it, when the Welsh Internationals are away they have to step right in and Habberfield and Leonard have shown they are more than adequate in that respect, even Martin Roberts didn't have a bad cameo yesterday, and that is saying a lot for me, I just hope he doesn't prove me wrong on Friday ( let him have his barnstorming game of the week today).

It's all good and well you giving us your opinion on Fia, but when is he actually going to play for you? When are Bernardo and Beard going to play? (didn't mention Hughes because he's another soft lock like Ashley Peers). Typical blunders from Tandy. Your forward pack actually did well yesterday, they outmuscled the Scarlets. I don't really see them as being vastly superior so they must know how to raise their game. Again I can only heap the praise on Gibbes there.

Arhip must have been an unknown at the time - that's exactly the type of signing LD is strongly against...

by wayne Sun 27 Dec 2015, 7:08 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
wayne wrote:
GavinDragon wrote:yes when all your internationals are there I would agree. However, when Webb is away Pretorious would be good to have around. I also think Harris is better than Arron Jarvis and Cai Griffiths.

Gavin I already said if Fia comes to be as good as he should, or what he showed when in NZ, he will be far superior to Harris, no disagreement from me on the 2 you've quoted and as Raven said Arhip is coming to be close to a legend down our way, fantastic signing and I presume very cheap, there will be a large increase in his wages when his contract comes up for renewal. As for Pretorious I wouldn't swap our 2 at the moment and the reputed one we have coming in for next season for him. We need our NWQ to be either first choice or very close to it, when the Welsh Internationals are away they have to step right in and Habberfield and Leonard have shown they are more than adequate in that respect, even Martin Roberts didn't have a bad cameo yesterday, and that is saying a lot for me, I just hope he doesn't prove me wrong on Friday ( let him have his barnstorming game of the week today).

It's all good and well you giving us your opinion on Fia, but when is he actually going to play for you? When are Bernardo and Beard going to play? (didn't mention Hughes because he's another soft lock like Ashley Peers). Typical blunders from Tandy. Your forward pack actually did well yesterday, they outmuscled the Scarlets. I don't really see them as being vastly superior so they must know how to raise their game. Again I can only heap the praise on Gibbes there.

Arhip must have been an unknown at the time - that's exactly the type of signing LD is strongly against...

I'll say one thing for you, you definitely have some bottle, after the mauling that Harris took off that well known scrummager Gethin Jenkins today, both Arhip and that piece of crap Jarvis handled him just fine a few weeks ago.
Because LD is against that type of signing don't tar me with that brush.

by mikey_dragon Sun 27 Dec 2015, 8:08 pm

wayne wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
wayne wrote:
GavinDragon wrote:yes when all your internationals are there I would agree. However, when Webb is away Pretorious would be good to have around. I also think Harris is better than Arron Jarvis and Cai Griffiths.

Gavin I already said if Fia comes to be as good as he should, or what he showed when in NZ, he will be far superior to Harris, no disagreement from me on the 2 you've quoted and as Raven said Arhip is coming to be close to a legend down our way, fantastic signing and I presume very cheap, there will be a large increase in his wages when his contract comes up for renewal. As for Pretorious I wouldn't swap our 2 at the moment and the reputed one we have coming in for next season for him. We need our NWQ to be either first choice or very close to it, when the Welsh Internationals are away they have to step right in and Habberfield and Leonard have shown they are more than adequate in that respect, even Martin Roberts didn't have a bad cameo yesterday, and that is saying a lot for me, I just hope he doesn't prove me wrong on Friday ( let him have his barnstorming game of the week today).

It's all good and well you giving us your opinion on Fia, but when is he actually going to play for you? When are Bernardo and Beard going to play? (didn't mention Hughes because he's another soft lock like Ashley Peers). Typical blunders from Tandy. Your forward pack actually did well yesterday, they outmuscled the Scarlets. I don't really see them as being vastly superior so they must know how to raise their game. Again I can only heap the praise on Gibbes there.

Arhip must have been an unknown at the time - that's exactly the type of signing LD is strongly against...
I'll say one thing for you, you definitely have some bottle, after the mauling that Harris took off that well known scrummager Gethin Jenkins today, both Arhip and that piece of crap Jarvis handled him just fine a few weeks ago.
Because LD is against that type of signing don't tar me with that brush.

Excuse me but what on earth does this have to do with what I just asked??? But now as you've mentioned it, when did this mauling take place as I must have missed it - Jenkins was also brought off early in the second half probably in part due to his knock and the fact that he wasn't particularly impressive. I'm also pretty sure that the Ospreys scrum isn't as amazing as you seem to think it is, as it happens to go to the deck quite often...

I wasn't tarring you at all. I rate Arhip and I thought it would be worth a mention seeing as it's LD's article. If LD had his way Arhip would still be an unknown and Cai Griffiths would be your starting prop Whistle

.

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