Welsh Regions must be allowed more foreign players to compete, insists Ospreys chief Andrew Hore

First topic message reminder :

I'm sorry Andrew, but you are talking out of your rear end. We only have 4 Pro teams in Wales, we cannot afford to jam pack them with NWQ players, I think the amount now is too much. Andrew Hore should look at working harder to develop Welsh talent rather than trying to plug holes with NWQ players, do anyone else think he is right ?

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/welsh-regions-must-allowed-more-10635797

Come on Hore pull the other one, it has bells on.

I reckon, firstly, we need to start having more working relationships between the regions, there are only four of them, they need to work together more. At one point, I think it was last season perhaps the season before, Ospreys had about four or five scrum halves in their squad, rather than other regions signing punts from out of Wales perhaps they could speak to each other and ask if they have a player who they could utilise.

No doubt I will get Risca or stone motif call me something for suggesting this, but I would rather see untested Welsh players given a chance before an untested NWQ player gets given a chance.

Conversely. the Irish Union seriously hamper the quality of the Pro12, as confirmed by themselves:

http://www.the42.ie/irfu-munster-stephen-moore-hooker-blocked-2516857-Dec2015/?utm_source=twitter_self

Nucifora underlined the IRFU’s belief that promoting young Irish players within the provinces is the route to ensuring national team success.

Ulster attempted to make a move for a South African second row who could potentially quality for Ireland under the three-year residency rule recently, but were discouraged from doing so by the IRFU as the player in question was already in his late twenties.

Irfu blocked Stephen Moore to Munster, i can't believe it

LordDowlais wrote:I reckon, firstly, we need to start having more working relationships between the regions, there are only four of them, they need to work together more. At one point, I think it was last season perhaps the season before, Ospreys had about four or five scrum halves in their squad, rather than other regions signing punts from out of Wales perhaps they could speak to each other and ask if they have a player who they could utilise.

No doubt I will get Risca or stone motif call me something for suggesting this, but I would rather see untested Welsh players given a chance before an untested NWQ player gets given a chance.

But they are competitor businesses who overwhelmingly fund the development of players themselves. A draft might not be a bad idea in principle from a purely international perspective , but it would need the WRU to start investing properly in a joint academy and would also seriously undermine the ability of the pro teams to act in their own best interests. Think of Chunky's example above and times that effect by a factor equal to the pig headed limitations of our national coach,who would be calling even more of the shots.

LordDowlais wrote:No doubt I will get Risca or stone motif call me something for suggesting this, but I would rather see untested Welsh players given a chance before an untested NWQ player gets given a chance.

Calling you something? What a strange thing to say.

LordDowlais wrote:I would rather see untested Welsh players given a chance before an untested NWQ player gets given a chance.

Untested how? Have we been signing amateurs?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I would rather see untested Welsh players given a chance before an untested NWQ player gets given a chance.

Untested how? Have we been signing amateurs?

No, but we have been signing average middle of the road and crap NWQ players who have added nothing to the game in Wales. Like Griff has said, lets get players who can make a difference. We have extra money in the game now, this could be used to properly scout players, take time and pick NWQ players who will not just come here to plug holes.

I see what the Irish provinces have done in the past, players like Mafi, Isa Necewa, Phillipe Contepomi, Brad Thorn. I look at players over there now, Bundi Aki, Ruan Pienaar, the players make a difference, they add to the provinces.

Now I am not saying we have never had these types in Wales, Percy Montgommery, Justin Marshall, Tia Tia. Even now, Regan King and Landman, but these have been the exception, not the norm, with our regions holding onto players now rather than them leaving, adding quality NWQ players should be the remit, not squad fillers, we can do that with our own players.

LordDowlais wrote:I see what the Irish provinces have done in the past, players like Mafi, Isa Necewa, Phillipe Contepomi, Brad Thorn. I look at players over there now, Bundi Aki, Ruan Pienaar, the players make a difference, they add to the provinces.

More money = better players. We don't have their money.

LordDowlais wrote:Adding quality NWQ players should be the remit, not squad fillers, we can do that with our own players.

Not if they're not up to scratch.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Not if they're not up to scratch.

How do you know they are not up to scratch if you are not going to give them a chance ?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:More money = better players. We don't have their money.

We have more money here now as well, so no excuses.

LordDowlais wrote:How do you know they are not up to scratch if you are not going to give them a chance ?

If the coaches don't think there's a homegrown player good enough, and a Super 12 player who they do think is good enough becomes available, then I'll go with that. It shouldn't matter where he's from. Do you want the regions to win matches or not?

LordDowlais wrote:We have more money here now as well, so no excuses.

We still don't have their money.

LD I think most of the time you're able to tell if these players aren't up to scratch. Of course there are the occasional anomalies such as Halfpenny - but the key word there is anomaly. And let us not forget that the Irish also have a firmer pedigree in Europe, players go there for trophies as well as money. And some might go because they like the country (Howlett).

Aki (and Connacht's No.8) were somewhat unknowns to me but they are certainly are quality players. I guess the coach brought them over with him.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:and a Super 12 player who they do think is good enough, but is not good enough to stay with their Super 12 franchise otherwise he would not be looking to move abroad

There fixed that for you.

LordDowlais wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:and a Super 12 player who they do think is good enough, but is not good enough to stay with their Super 12 franchise otherwise he would not be looking to move abroad

There fixed that for you.

And what would be the problem with that, if he's still better than any available homegrown alternative?

Chunky Norwich wrote:Conversely. the Irish Union seriously hamper the quality of the Pro12, as confirmed by themselves:

http://www.the42.ie/irfu-munster-stephen-moore-hooker-blocked-2516857-Dec2015/?utm_source=twitter_self

Nucifora underlined the IRFU’s belief that promoting young Irish players within the provinces is the route to ensuring national team success.

Ulster attempted to make a move for a South African second row who could potentially quality for Ireland under the three-year residency rule recently, but were discouraged from doing so by the IRFU as the player in question was already in his late twenties.

IRFU were spot on here. Munster don't need a hooker either.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:We still don't have their money.

But we still have more than before, so better quality should not be an issue. Look, I do not want to see players at the regions who cannot get a contract elsewhere, if a player is coming I want it to be because we have offered him more to come. We are constantly taking off-casts off other teams, it needs to stop.

LordDowlais wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:and a Super 12 player who they do think is good enough, but is not good enough to stay with their Super 12 franchise otherwise he would not be looking to move abroad

There fixed that for you.

What's your point? A player might not be gd enough for the top SH tournament but there is quite the drop off from that to the level of the PrO'12....

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:And what would be the problem with that, if he's still better than any available homegrown alternative?

And we would no he is better, because ?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:and a Super 12 player who they do think is good enough, but is not good enough to stay with their Super 12 franchise otherwise he would not be looking to move abroad

There fixed that for you.

And what would be the problem with that, if he's still better than any available homegrown alternative?

This is becoming a bit of a pointless rant now. LD can you name many poor signings the Regions have recently made? You should also perhaps consider the Welsh players that have signed and re-signed.

Stone Motif wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:and a Super 12 player who they do think is good enough, but is not good enough to stay with their Super 12 franchise otherwise he would not be looking to move abroad

There fixed that for you.

What's your point? A player might not be gd enough for the top SH tournament but there is quite the drop off from that to the level of the PrO'12....

How do we know these players are better ? Just because the play in the SH it does not mean they are better.

LordDowlais wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:We still don't have their money.

But we still have more than before, so better quality should not be an issue. Look, I do not want to see players at the regions who cannot get a contract elsewhere, if a player is coming I want it to be because we have offered him more to come. We are constantly taking off-casts off other teams, it needs to stop.

You cannot be so simple as to not understand that 'more' is still less than that available to other teams.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:and a Super 12 player who they do think is good enough, but is not good enough to stay with their Super 12 franchise otherwise he would not be looking to move abroad

There fixed that for you.

And what would be the problem with that, if he's still better than any available homegrown alternative?

This is becoming a bit of a pointless rant now. LD can you name many poor signings the Regions have recently made? You should also perhaps consider the Welsh players that have signed and re-signed.

There is a list of them that Dragons have signed on this very topic, and I know Cardiff Blues have had shed loads. They have just signed some USA scrum half FFS, how is he any better than what is already here ? Also, lets not talk about the two Romanians Cardiff Blues signed the other season, how the frig were they any better than what we had in the prem ?

You're full of contradictions Dowlais. You write an article saying regions should do better, then another after a while seemingly accepting that they do well considering their budgets and now you're back to we should be signing better players despite not being on as much of a level playing field as Irish teams.

LordDowlais wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:And what would be the problem with that, if he's still better than any available homegrown alternative?

And we would no he is better, because ?

Because we have scouts and coaches who keep track of players at home and abroad and know what they're doing.

You still labour under the misconception that there are scores of world-class Welsh players just waiting to light up the Pro12, if it wasn't for those pesky foreigners.

Stone Motif wrote:You cannot be so simple as to not understand that 'more' is still less than that available to other teams.

What is that supposed to mean ? We have extra money at the regions now, thus we can offer better wages to quality NWQ players, just because we still do not have as much as others, we still have more than we used to, so lets use it properly.

Risca Rev wrote:You're full of contradictions Dowlais. You write an article saying regions should do better, then another after a while seemingly accepting that they do well considering their budgets and now you're back to we should be signing better players despite not being on as much of a level playing field as Irish teams.

I have never said they do well considering their budgets. With what is happening next season, with the players staying here, and extra money available due to the DC, then I expect better results from the regions. Not extra money to spend on mediocre NWQ players.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:And what would be the problem with that, if he's still better than any available homegrown alternative?

And we would no he is better, because ?

Because we have scouts and coaches who keep track of players at home and abroad and know what they're doing.

You still labour under the misconception that there are scores of world-class Welsh players just waiting to light up the Pro12, if it wasn't for those pesky foreigners.

No we do not, we do not have scouts watching players in the SH. The regions are pimped these SH players by their agents, and just because they have played a handful of super 12 games, then they must be quality and better than any youngsters from the U21's or the the Prem.

LordDowlais wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:and a Super 12 player who they do think is good enough, but is not good enough to stay with their Super 12 franchise otherwise he would not be looking to move abroad

There fixed that for you.

And what would be the problem with that, if he's still better than any available homegrown alternative?

This is becoming a bit of a pointless rant now. LD can you name many poor signings the Regions have recently made? You should also perhaps consider the Welsh players that have signed and re-signed.

There is a list of them that Dragons have signed on this very topic, and I know Cardiff Blues have had shed loads. They have just signed some USA scrum half FFS, how is he any better than what is already here ? Also, lets not talk about the two Romanians Cardiff Blues signed the other season, how the frig were they any better than what we had in the prem ?

But wasn't that list including past seasons? We've made good affordable signings in the past two seasons, the likes of Landman, Harris, Stankovich, Pretorious and Scott (winger) - each have become regulars in the first team squad, when not injured... So that kind of blows your theory out of the water.

I wasn't sure that Blues made any such signings? Given how poorly run they have been in the last 3 seasons it's probably best not to rubbish all of welsh rugby based on what they've done. Anyway if you believe the rumours then they are to be cutting the squad.
On a more positive note they have signed Rhys Gill and are rumoured to be signing Morgan and Halfpenny. Furthermore their PS XV has a few players who look as if they will step up and become mainstays at their club - all Welsh players btw though probably another season or two from being ready.

LordDowlais wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:And what would be the problem with that, if he's still better than any available homegrown alternative?

And we would no he is better, because ?

Because we have scouts and coaches who keep track of players at home and abroad and know what they're doing.

You still labour under the misconception that there are scores of world-class Welsh players just waiting to light up the Pro12, if it wasn't for those pesky foreigners.

No we do not, we do not have scouts watching players in the SH. The regions are pimped these SH players by their agents, and just because they have played a handful of super 12 games, then they must be quality and better than any youngsters from the U21's or the the Prem.

Oh, okay. Thanks for clearing that up.

LordDowlais wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:And what would be the problem with that, if he's still better than any available homegrown alternative?

And we would no he is better, because ?

Because we have scouts and coaches who keep track of players at home and abroad and know what they're doing.

You still labour under the misconception that there are scores of world-class Welsh players just waiting to light up the Pro12, if it wasn't for those pesky foreigners.

No we do not, we do not have scouts watching players in the SH. The regions are pimped these SH players by their agents, and just because they have played a handful of super 12 games, then they must be quality and better than any youngsters from the U21's or the the Prem.

Ummm, it's Super 15, set to become Super 18... And if they have played well at that level then yes, they are a whole lot better than guys in the Welsh premiership......

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:And what would be the problem with that, if he's still better than any available homegrown alternative?

And we would no he is better, because ?

Because we have scouts and coaches who keep track of players at home and abroad and know what they're doing.

You still labour under the misconception that there are scores of world-class Welsh players just waiting to light up the Pro12, if it wasn't for those pesky foreigners.

No we do not, we do not have scouts watching players in the SH. The regions are pimped these SH players by their agents, and just because they have played a handful of super 12 games, then they must be quality and better than any youngsters from the U21's or the the Prem.

Oh, okay. Thanks for clearing that up.

So you reckon the skint regions who do not have enough money like the others do, have spare cash to throw at scouts to go watching players in Australia, New Zealand and South Africa do you ?

mikey_dragon wrote:
Ummm, it's Super 15, set to become Super 18... And if they have played well at that level then yes, they are a whole lot better than guys in the Welsh premiership......

Just because they have played at that level, it does not mean they are good enough for it. It is not as if we are signing players who the franchises want to keep. We are signing the one's that the franchises could not care less about them. The cast offs.

LordDowlais wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:You're full of contradictions Dowlais. You write an article saying regions should do better, then another after a while seemingly accepting that they do well considering their budgets and now you're back to we should be signing better players despite not being on as much of a level playing field as Irish teams.

I have never said they do well considering their budgets. With what is happening next season, with the players staying here, and extra money available due to the DC, then I expect better results from the regions. Not extra money to spend on mediocre NWQ players.

https://www.606v2.com/t59768-irish-big-spenders

So by definition, the fact they do compete means they're doing well despite the budgets?

Risca Rev wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:You're full of contradictions Dowlais. You write an article saying regions should do better, then another after a while seemingly accepting that they do well considering their budgets and now you're back to we should be signing better players despite not being on as much of a level playing field as Irish teams.

I have never said they do well considering their budgets. With what is happening next season, with the players staying here, and extra money available due to the DC, then I expect better results from the regions. Not extra money to spend on mediocre NWQ players.

https://www.606v2.com/t59768-irish-big-spenders

So by definition, the fact they do compete means they're doing well despite the budgets?

In the league yes. When the Irish side's hold their best players back.

LordDowlais wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:
Ummm, it's Super 15, set to become Super 18... And if they have played well at that level then yes, they are a whole lot better than guys in the Welsh premiership......

Just because they have played at that level, it does not mean they are good enough for it. It is not as if we are signing players who the franchises want to keep. We are signing the one's that the franchises could not care less about them. The cast offs.

Is this a matter of pride for you? Is that your objection? If one of their 'cast offs' is better than any available Welsh player, should we puff out our chests sing the national anthem and play a Premiership player who's worse?

LordDowlais wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:
Ummm, it's Super 15, set to become Super 18... And if they have played well at that level then yes, they are a whole lot better than guys in the Welsh premiership......

Just because they have played at that level, it does not mean they are good enough for it. It is not as if we are signing players who the franchises want to keep. We are signing the one's that the franchises could not care less about them. The cast offs.

They might not be, or possibly don't see themselves going any further. But super rugby is a step up from the Welsh premiership, and it is some step up! If they have played provincial level out there then they are still good players. That is probably more of an equal level to Pro12, etc.

LD anything to add to my point that the regions are not constantly signing dross?

mikey_dragon wrote:LD anything to add to my point that the regions are not constantly signing dross?

But they are signing mediocre players on a consistent basis, history has shown us this and still is showing us this.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:
Ummm, it's Super 15, set to become Super 18... And if they have played well at that level then yes, they are a whole lot better than guys in the Welsh premiership......

Just because they have played at that level, it does not mean they are good enough for it. It is not as if we are signing players who the franchises want to keep. We are signing the one's that the franchises could not care less about them. The cast offs.

Is this a matter of pride for you? Is that your objection? If one of their 'cast offs' is better than any available Welsh player, should we puff out our chests sing the national anthem and play a Premiership player who's worse?

How ridiculous is this ?

I would rather us fail with a young Welsh player, than fail with a mediocre 30+ year old NWQ player.

LordDowlais wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:LD anything to add to my point that the regions are not constantly signing dross?

But they are signing mediocre players on a consistent basis, history has shown us this and still is showing us this.

Right so you've retracted your point and moving towards mediocre. Who are these guys btw? It certainly isn't the players I listed. It wouldn't be any recent signings made by the Blues or Scarlets either.

mikey_dragon wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:LD anything to add to my point that the regions are not constantly signing dross?

But they are signing mediocre players on a consistent basis, history has shown us this and still is showing us this.

Right so you've retracted your point and moving towards mediocre. Who are these guys btw? It certainly isn't the players I listed. It wouldn't be any recent signings made by the Blues or Scarlets either.

From the Blues signed this season:-

Blane Scully
Cam Dolan

From Dragons signed this season:-

Nick Scott
Shaun Night

From Ospreys signed this season:-

Oliver Tomaszczyk
Ma'Afu Fia (Injured before signed, still has not played)

From Scarlets signed this season:-

Tom Price


I could go back to last season as well, but I do not see the point.

Even I'm struggling to keep up with you now, can you remind me what your point is again? I'm thinking you're merely of the opinion that these are crap players and yet the ones who watch them regularly disagree with you. If there were better players in the premiership then we would have seen them in the B&I Cup - but the fact is there aren't any players there better than internationals who just played at the recent world cup (Scully, Dolan).

mikey_dragon wrote:

Even I'm struggling to keep up with you now, can you remind me what your point is again? I'm thinking you're merely of the opinion that these are crap players and yet the ones who watch them regularly disagree with you. If there were better players in the premiership then we would have seen them in the B&I Cup - but the fact is there aren't any players there better than internationals who just played at the recent world cup (Scully, Dolan).

I have watched more rugby than you have this season my learned friend. I can tell you that those two Blues players are not up to standard, they hardly get a game. They are squad fillers, they are substitutes for the substitutes.


Those players I have pointed out in that list have done nothing, they have achieved bugger all, how are they better than players who are representing their country at U21 level ?

OK I will give you the Fijian Osprey prop, because he is injured and has not played much yet. But the fact that Ospreys signed an injured player says it all.

LordDowlais wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:
Ummm, it's Super 15, set to become Super 18... And if they have played well at that level then yes, they are a whole lot better than guys in the Welsh premiership......

Just because they have played at that level, it does not mean they are good enough for it. It is not as if we are signing players who the franchises want to keep. We are signing the one's that the franchises could not care less about them. The cast offs.

Is this a matter of pride for you? Is that your objection? If one of their 'cast offs' is better than any available Welsh player, should we puff out our chests sing the national anthem and play a Premiership player who's worse?

How ridiculous is this ?

I would rather us fail with a young Welsh player, than fail with a mediocre 30+ year old NWQ player.

I'll try again: if there is no one of a sufficient standard available in Wales, and a player who is of a sufficient standard from outside Wales (even, heaven forbid, the southern hemisphere) becomes available, would you object to his signing, and play an inferior Welsh player instead?

LordDowlais wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Even I'm struggling to keep up with you now, can you remind me what your point is again? I'm thinking you're merely of the opinion that these are crap players and yet the ones who watch them regularly disagree with you. If there were better players in the premiership then we would have seen them in the B&I Cup - but the fact is there aren't any players there better than internationals who just played at the recent world cup (Scully, Dolan).

I have watched more rugby than you have this season my learned friend. I can tell you that those two Blues players are not up to standard, they hardly get a game. They are squad fillers, they are substitutes for the substitutes.


Those players I have pointed out in that list have done nothing, they have achieved bugger all, how are they better than players who are representing their country at U21 level ?

OK I will give you the Fijian Osprey prop, because he is injured and has not played much yet. But the fact that Ospreys signed an injured player says it all.

Shaun Knight has represented the England Saxons. But yeah, you think he's rubbish, so you're right.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I'll try again: if there is no one of a sufficient standard available in Wales, and a player who is of a sufficient standard from outside Wales (even, heaven forbid, the southern hemisphere) becomes available, would you object to his signing, and play an inferior Welsh player instead?

But how do we know the Welsh player will be inferior ? We are not even giving him the chance.

I remember a few years ago, well it might have been more than a few, Cardiff Blues were struggling for wingers, what did they do ? The gave a chance to Lee Abdul from the Welsh Prem, and he excelled. Only injury put pay to him staying in the Blues team.

If we give these players a chance, they might take it.

Dragons done this with Lloyd Burns, come on, we need to be doing a lot more of this rather than looking towards the SH.

Risca Rev wrote:Shaun Knight has represented the England Saxons. But yeah, you think he's rubbish, so you're right.

He has represented the Saxons, so it makes him better than a Welsh player who has represented the Wales U21's does it ?

Yes.

LordDowlais wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I'll try again: if there is no one of a sufficient standard available in Wales, and a player who is of a sufficient standard from outside Wales (even, heaven forbid, the southern hemisphere) becomes available, would you object to his signing, and play an inferior Welsh player instead?

But how do we know the Welsh player will be inferior ? We are not even giving him the chance.

I said 'if'. If, by every measure they have, the regions conclude that there is no available Welshman of a sufficient standard, but there is an available non-Welshman of a sufficient standard, would you rather they played a worse, Welsh, player?

Dragons have definitely done better in the transfer market in the last year or so. We have to congratulate Lyn and team on that to a certain extent. The recent signings seem quite astute, and have led to our (relative) upturn in fortunes.

Super Rugby players vs local players was mentioned above. I'm definitely for Super Rugby players being targeted. If they've proven their ability then singing them would be a coup. Players like Gareth Anscombe, quality player in Super Rugby, is exactly the sort of players we should all be targeting. Where I waver on the NWQ thing is where we're not bringing in Super Rugby players but players from Cornish Pirates, Doncaster, Viadana, etc. instead. Of course all players need to be looked at on a case by case basis, but by and large we've taken punts on these players from the lower leagues or 'lesser' teams and they've not delivered. Yes, finances are an issue. But again, I'm confident that lower league players are by and large not better than some players here who may be behind a first teamer at another region and could get some game time with us. But proven Super Rugby boys - f*uck yeah! Get 'em in.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I said 'if'. If, by every measure they have, the regions conclude that there is no available Welshman of a sufficient standard, but there is an available non-Welshman of a sufficient standard, would you rather they played a worse, Welsh, player?

But we would never know would we ? Because we go straight to your option far too often, without even considering the alternatives.