Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

and replace it with a Euro Super League

Looks like he wants more Celts in it - 6 French, 6 English & 8 Pro12

http://www.the42.ie/mourad-boudjellal-european-super-league-2671582-Mar2016/

I'd prefer this to any old B&I league.

It would destroy the Pro12, but not the AP and T14. Where would the other 4 teams go, and which of the Provinces would go to the wall?

Nope....

It has merit.
Pro12 is dead as a competition as it is, only comments and reports on it are anti-Irish and refereeing bias. Irish provinces need to get away from the regions. If this was a viable mechanism to achieve that then great.

It would be pretty bad for the AP and T14 too though wouldn't it. Obviously it right away puts at least 4 Pro12 teams out of business but the value of the TV rights for the 'rump' leagues drops right down, even if there is promotion and relegation.

We do need to restructure our season, in a way that rebalances club commitments with country commitments- and reduces the overall number of games. I've always believed we should focus on a smaller number of elite games rather than long, hard slogs with huge injury rates and rotation. I think that would produce better rugby and better rugby players. Currently, European club rugby is very low quality because our resources are spread too thin and it doesn't prepare players for the international game. This proposal has a lot of good things about it and the big one is it reduces the number of games significantly. This could leave room for test matches against lower-ranked teams*, potentially end the situation where we schedule club games during international windows and improve player welfare.

A breakaway league would be bad for rugby though. We must all go together. There should be two tiers, all current European professional teams must be accommodated and there should be an equal distribution of TV revenue and an enforced salary cap for each team regardless of nationality, ranking or whether or not that team is currently in the top tier. Not sure Boudjellal would go for that but hey- you never know.

*in my utopian vision where the Unions don't just go for money spinners in the extra weeks- like Irelands recent crash grab announcement of a game with NZ in Chicago. I think that having two weeks sett aside for warm-up games against other European sides before the Six Nations would be ideal, with full teams and player release.

It's dead???  No sign of a funeral yet. In fact there's very much signs of life.

It only has merit as far as those teams that make it into it. You say the Provinces need to get away from the Regions... That wouldn't happen as they, the select ones, would be joining us (not forgetting that we would be lumped in with the likes of those proposing it), and which of the Provinces do you think we should allow to crumble to dust? They would be truly dead.

Notch wrote:It would be pretty bad for the AP and T14 too though wouldn't it. Obviously it right away puts at least 4 Pro12 teams out of business but the value of the TV rights for the 'rump' leagues drops right down, even if there is promotion and relegation.

We do need to restructure our season, in a way that rebalances club commitments with country commitments- and reduces the overall number of games. I've always believed we should focus on a smaller number of elite games rather than long, hard slogs with huge injury rates and rotation. I think that would produce better rugby and better rugby players. Currently, European club rugby is very low quality because our resources are spread too thin and it doesn't prepare players for the international game. This proposal has a lot of good things about it and the big one is it reduces the number of games significantly. This could leave room for test matches against lower-ranked teams*, potentially end the situation where we schedule club games during international windows and improve player welfare.

A breakaway league would be bad for rugby though. We must all go together. There should be two tiers, all current European professional teams must be accommodated and there should be an equal distribution of TV revenue and an enforced salary cap for each team regardless of nationality, ranking or whether or not that team is currently in the top tier. Not sure Boudjellal would go for that but hey- you never know.

*in my utopian vision where the Unions don't just go for money spinners in the extra weeks- like Irelands recent crash grab announcement of a game with NZ in Chicago. I think that having two weeks sett aside for warm-up games against other European sides before the Six Nations would be ideal, with full teams and player release.

True, they would take a hit, but they would survive. In fact, they might just thrive as teams compete to get into this sparkly new competition. For what they lose, they will gain. The new competition becomes an extension of both the AP and T14, but the death of Pro12.

Big gains for the English and French. Slow death for the rest.

A B&I Cup could probably work out with the Italians going to the Top 12/ProD2.

If that was to happen, the Welsh would want to play in that rather than European Super League anyway.

Sin é wrote:A B&I Cup could probably work out with the Italians going to the Top 12/ProD2.

If that was to happen, the Welsh would want to play in that rather than European Super League anyway.

That might work if the English sides were willing, but that would take a strong financial incentive.

I'm sure Phil, and chums, would be delighted ..... until they actually joined

England already has about 14-16 teams who could support top level rugby. If 6 were hived off for this league (Saracens, Northampton, Leicester, Wasps, Exeter, Quins), you could take the remaining teams + Yorkshire/Brizzle to get you to 8. 1 Welsh region and the WRU take over London Welsh as a team. 1 Scottish team and LS goes to the SRU. 1 Irish team gets you to 13 teams in a B&I feeder league. Need 1 more (Doncaster to bring in another northern English team?)

Bottom teams from both Super league divisions go down with replacement from top team from remodeled Top 14 and B&I (there will have to be agreements on how this is done to avoid turning it to 12 French, 7 English and Leinster at the top table). RFU can afford the additional support to 2 extra teams, SRU get their 3rd team they can't afford to build from scratch and the WRU actually put their money to use. The Irish may lose out but London Irish are a bit of a mess at the moment playing in Reading. The RFU could allow it and focus on funding 13 teams.

Munchkin wrote:It's dead???  No sign of a funeral yet. In fact there's very much signs of life.

It only has merit as far as those teams that make it into it. You say the Provinces need to get away from the Regions... That wouldn't happen as they, the select ones, would be joining us, and which of the Provinces do you think we should allow to crumble to dust? They would be truly dead.

I guess I'd be leaving the regions in the pro 12 and taking 2 italian, 2 scot and 4 provinces into a new competition. The profile of the new competition could finally kick start the game in Italy. The french love travelling to scotland.

The regions only want the money, they would go native at any negotiations. An itali-scots-irish voting block would be far more stable and on-message in any negotiations. Look at the last lot of european negotiations and how quickly the regions broke away destroying any bargaining power that the sru/irfu/fir/wru might have had at the table. The regions marked their card at those negotiations. The welsh internationals will transfer into english clubs anyway so they'd end up on the field anyway. The money left on the table from not having to pay off the regions could be used to negotiate the inclusion of certain nations or a promotion/relegation of 'pro12' places? Many options there.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

Munchkin wrote:It's dead???  No sign of a funeral yet. In fact there's very much signs of life.

It only has merit as far as those teams that make it into it. You say the Provinces need to get away from the Regions... That wouldn't happen as they, the select ones, would be joining us, and which of the Provinces do you think we should allow to crumble to dust? They would be truly dead.

I guess I'd be leaving the regions in the pro 12 and taking 2 italian, 2 scot and 4 provinces into a new competition. The profile of the new competition could finally kick start the game in Italy. The french love travelling to scotland.  

The regions only want the money, they would go native at any negotiations.  An itali-scots-irish voting block would be far more stable and on-message in any negotiations.  Look at the last lot of european negotiations and how quickly the regions broke away destroying any bargaining power that the sru/irfu/fir/wru might have had at the table.  The regions marked their card at those negotiations.  The welsh internationals will transfer into english clubs anyway so they'd end up on the field anyway. The money left on the table from not having to pay off the regions could be used to negotiate the inclusion of certain nations or a promotion/relegation of 'pro12' places? Many options there.

So we are to essentially destroy professional rugby in Wales? The WRU and the regions may be hard to work with, but they are important allies for us (should that be 'frenemies'?). Ultimately I want a solution that is good for all the nations involved. It is not in our best interests to undermine anybody. The better the rugby structures are in the other countries, the stronger the Six Nations is, the better it is, the more able we are to compete against the SH. I'd love us to be able to make decisions based on strengthening ourselves and other nations.

My concern is that the club rugby structures- including our own- cannibalise and undermine rugby in other countries. In fact, our structure needs to do that to even keep the pace. Off the field we have become a middle tier rugby nation, poaching from those below us to try and keep up with the top tier nations (England and France). This always happens with markets- they need to be very strictly regulated and policed to ensure they keep delivering in the interests of the majority as opposed to the interests of the minority.

Ultimately I think this is slightly hopeless and utopian.

Not destroy pro rugby. Give them what they want - to play against English clubs.

Any poaching we are doing is from the Tier 1 countries like NZ & SA.

Good to know the spirit of Napoleon is alive and well in the south of France.I'd like to know who decides the elite teams,when and over what period of time? If it's a money and resources choice who does the due diligence to verify the books?What happens if the WRU,IRFU,FIR and SRU agree to underwrite all their regions,provinces and teams? If it's a 2 league x 10 team system how are the teams allocated initially? Who agrees the salary cap and foreign import rules?Can anyone see the English and French moneymen agreeing to relegation? How many to be relegated/promoted? Relegation to where? Why would up to 16 teams agree voluntarily to commit commercial suicide and why would their Unions go along with it? The lawyers at least will think all their litigation dreams have come at once.

Wendyball has been teasing us with a European super league for 20 years but even with the huge monies they've got it hasn't got anywhere.This won't either.

They are Tier 1 in terms of rugby, I would agree. Tier 1 in terms of financial power? I disagree. I was really talking about off-field affairs. Apologies for any misunderstanding.

The biggest reason this will struggle is due to governance and wage caps. We have already seen how some treat the rules they have signed up to,and the second they are asked to stick to them they bring out the threat of lawsuits.
To get everyone to sign up to a legally binding set of rules will be an act of absolute biblical proportions.

Even if they were legally binding they would probably break them anyway, or bitch, moan and threaten to walk out unless they get their way.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

Munchkin wrote:It's dead???  No sign of a funeral yet. In fact there's very much signs of life.

It only has merit as far as those teams that make it into it. You say the Provinces need to get away from the Regions... That wouldn't happen as they, the select ones, would be joining us, and which of the Provinces do you think we should allow to crumble to dust? They would be truly dead.

I guess I'd be leaving the regions in the pro 12 and taking 2 italian, 2 scot and 4 provinces into a new competition. The profile of the new competition could finally kick start the game in Italy. The french love travelling to scotland.  

The regions only want the money, they would go native at any negotiations.  An itali-scots-irish voting block would be far more stable and on-message in any negotiations.  Look at the last lot of european negotiations and how quickly the regions broke away destroying any bargaining power that the sru/irfu/fir/wru might have had at the table.  The regions marked their card at those negotiations.  The welsh internationals will transfer into english clubs anyway so they'd end up on the field anyway. The money left on the table from not having to pay off the regions could be used to negotiate the inclusion of certain nations or a promotion/relegation of 'pro12' places? Many options there.

I'm sure the IRFU will remember the actions of RRW at that time, but the WRU stuck with us. Unlike the SRU... There's a time for everything, and I don't think that would be the time to remember such things.

Yeah I'm pretty sure it was the SRU who sold their soul to BT and not the WRU.

It will not work, because there will be union run clubs involved, unless every team is privately owned or every club is union owned then there will be no meritocracy. 

This would cause blue murder, we all know what the owners of the rich French and English clubs are like.

LordDowlais wrote:It will not work, because there will be union run clubs involved, unless every team is privately owned or every club is union owned then there will be no meritocracy. 

This would cause blue murder, we all know what the owners of the rich French and English clubs are like.

I tend to think the same on this. It will end up with similar argument to the HEC/RCC reform, and the current moans and counter-moans around the Pro12.

In theory it would be a brilliant idea. A European version of SuperRugby, featuring the best that the NH has to offer.

Its not just club vs union, it's club vs club. Quite a few clubs in the PRL are still mighty peed off about the salary cap and subsequent cluster funk cover up, rumourhas it the RFU aint that impressed either making them all look bad.
Imagine if bath had another bad season and didn't make the top 6 to be included (as the PRL do things on merit) think Bruce would happily sit on the side lines?

It would take a negotiator of godlike powers to.broker this deal. To many people wanting different things.

And just to be clear I'm not saying it's just the English. Every league and nation would more than likely implode with in fighting and self destruction

Bruce could kindly feck off in that scenario

But I do agree its highly unlikely

Here is a more detailed report about his idea, and I must admit, it seems a pretty good idea. The bottom Pro12 and English teams would get relegated to a B&I league and the bottom placed French teams would get relegated to to the French league with the winners of the respective league going up into the super league.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/toulon-owner-calls-new-european-11076811

LordDowlais wrote:Here is a more detailed report about his idea, and I must admit, it seems a pretty good idea. The bottom Pro12 and English teams would get relegated to a B&I league and the bottom placed French teams would get relegated to to the French league with the winners of the respective league going up into the super league.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/toulon-owner-calls-new-european-11076811

Any Safeguard's that the super duper spiffy shiny league won't end up just eng fra?

I think it's a fantastic idea but could only work on a level playing field. When I say level playing field I don't mean one that suits the Franglo coalition, I mean a level playing field for all. They took the Champions Cup and made sure nobody else would get their paws on it and this kind of development would need to fix those issues or it would never be a dream realized. It's not something that could happen in all likelihood for the reasons stated in previous posts. It is however our only hope to keep up with the SH club scene.

Pete330v2 wrote:When I say level playing field I don't mean one that suits the Franglo coalition

Well a level playing field would be teams that do not get massively subsidised by their unions for a start.

I agree it's a good idea, but can't see how all clubs, provinces, regions and unions will come to any agreement that will suit all

LordDowlais wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:When I say level playing field I don't mean one that suits the Franglo coalition

Well a level playing would be teams that do not get massively subsidised by their unions for a start.

And as if by magic.....point proved

LordDowlais wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:When I say level playing field I don't mean one that suits the Franglo coalition

Well a level playing would be teams that do not get massively subsidised by their unions for a start.

Hows it any different from teams being subsidised by their owners?

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:When I say level playing field I don't mean one that suits the Franglo coalition

Well a level playing would be teams that do not get massively subsidised by their unions for a start.

Hows it any different from teams being subsidised by their owners?

Because there is NO risk involved for union run clubs.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:When I say level playing field I don't mean one that suits the Franglo coalition

Well a level playing would be teams that do not get massively subsidised by their unions for a start.

Hows it any different from teams being subsidised by their owners?

Because there is NO risk involved for union run clubs.

Do you and phill have the same manual?
Same risk to whoever the money comes from

No it isn't. 

No I do not own the same manual as phill, that member is a plonker who thinks the world stops outside of Cardiff.

The thing is a rich business man putting money into his plaything is different to a union putting money into something, the rich owner is doing things off his own back and taking all the risks himself. 

Union run clubs and privately owned clubs cannot run fairly in the same competition, that is one of the major gripes within the Pro12.

The issue of money coming into the club from the relevant union is a pretty widespread thing. Not entirely sure of the exact situation in Framce.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:When I say level playing field I don't mean one that suits the Franglo coalition

Well a level playing would be teams that do not get massively subsidised by their unions for a start.

Hows it any different from teams being subsidised by their owners?

Because there is NO risk involved for union run clubs.

Really? The Border Reivers guys would disagree

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:When I say level playing field I don't mean one that suits the Franglo coalition

Well a level playing would be teams that do not get massively subsidised by their unions for a start.

Hows it any different from teams being subsidised by their owners?

I am guessing the major difference is that a private investor is more likely to say sod this, and pull their cash out. Whereas the union is not. Also, as it stands, there are no two clubs owned by the same private backer etc. Also there could be a situation in a league with promotion/relegation whereby a team that are safe from relegation, but not in the chase to win the tournament, can lose a game to a lower side (owned by the same people) saving the from relegation. There have been grumbles before about this with the Pro12, but if it were in a system with relegation, the accusations (even if not true) would become more frequent, which in turn would 'weaken' the tournament.

The rich owner is putting money into a vanity project that he can walk away from. If the union pulls out its funding to a province all rugby from amarure to professional is in trouble.
I'm not saying it's perfect as it isn't.
But you are right it's these different ways of thinking that has crippled this league before it begins

And I'm glad your not like phill

You bet your bottom dollar the rich french and English club owners will find something to complain about with union controlled clubs.

LordDowlais wrote:You bet your bottom dollar the rich french and English club owners will find something to complain about with union controlled clubs.

I agree. And if I'm honest I don't trust the majority of the club owners one bit

LordDowlais wrote:You bet your bottom dollar the rich french and English club owners will find something to complain about with union controlled clubs.

They can take lessons from the Welsh there

carpet baboon wrote:I agree. And if I'm honest I don't trust the majority of the club owners one bit

but at least they are putting in their OWN earned money into their club and taking all the risks. This does not happen with union controlled clubs. The only way around this would be to have a salary cap, and I have said before there should be one in the Pro12.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:When I say level playing field I don't mean one that suits the Franglo coalition

Well a level playing would be teams that do not get massively subsidised by their unions for a start.

Hows it any different from teams being subsidised by their owners?

I am guessing the major difference is that a private investor is more likely to say sod this, and pull their cash out.  Whereas the union is not.  Also, as it stands, there are no two clubs owned by the same private backer etc.  Also there could be a situation in a league with promotion/relegation whereby a team that are safe from relegation, but not in the chase to win the tournament, can lose a game to a lower side (owned by the same people) saving the from relegation.  There have been grumbles before about this with the Pro12, but if it were in a system with relegation, the accusations (even if not true) would become more frequent, which in turn would 'weaken' the tournament.

That situation could exist under the current setup without promotion etc, though we had Mourad hinting to the world his team might not be winning tournaments this year because of the fines he'd face from the bonuses he'd have to pay hardly ideal either?

LordDowlais wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:I agree. And if I'm honest I don't trust the majority of the club owners one bit

but at least they are putting in their OWN earned money into their club and taking all the risks. This foes not happen with union controlled clubs. The only way around this would be to have a salary cap, and I have said before there should be one in the Pro12.

But the clubs have earned the money for the union so it is there hard earned money, it's just being given back to them.

And if you think these business folk are at risk of becoming destitute if the clubs fail, I think you don't quite get how they got there money in the first place

carpet baboon wrote:But the clubs have earned the money for the union so it is there hard earned money, it's just being given back to them.

They are getting more back than what they are earning though, they are getting a slice of what the National side makes as well. This is not an even playing field.

LordDowlais wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:But the clubs have earned the money for the union so it is there hard earned money, it's just being given back to them.

They are getting more back than what they are earning though, they are getting a slice of what the National side makes as well. This is not an even playing field.

Just like the RFU gives to the AP clubs, the FFR the Top 14 clubs and the WRU to the Welsh clubs

LordDowlais wrote:


The thing is a rich business man putting money into his plaything is different to a union putting money into something, the rich owner is doing things off his own back and taking all the risks himself. 

This bit.
Do you belive they open up there private bank account and just pour money into the clubs?

Or do you think it's a company under there name which is far enough removed from there personal wealth that any ongoing liability risk will not ruin them personally? With possible tax breaks they can claim and other un named investors that contribute?

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:But the clubs have earned the money for the union so it is there hard earned money, it's just being given back to them.

They are getting more back than what they are earning though, they are getting a slice of what the National side makes as well. This is not an even playing field.

Just like the RFU gives to the AP clubs, the FFR the Top 14 clubs and the WRU to the Welsh clubs

No they don't. The other unions pay for the use of the players the domestic teams provide for the national team. Our unions do not pay 300K+ for players like Peinnarr and Pitua.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:But the clubs have earned the money for the union so it is there hard earned money, it's just being given back to them.

They are getting more back than what they are earning though, they are getting a slice of what the National side makes as well. This is not an even playing field.

Just like the RFU gives to the AP clubs, the FFR the Top 14 clubs and the WRU to the Welsh clubs

No they don't. The other unions pay for the use of the players the domestic teams provide for the national team. Our unions do not pay 300K+ for players like Peinnarr and Pitua.

That comes out of the Provinces budget which is made up from the internal funds and funds provided by the IRFU

"No I do not own the same manual as phill, that member is a plonker who thinks the world stops outside of Cardiff."

Pot - Kettle anyone ???

Anyway LD get off your high horsed crusade against the Irish Provinces. It doesn't matter who backs you if there is a strict salary cap in place. Also, if the IRFU policies on non-Irish qualified players came into for for the other clubs in the Pro12 alone it would become very clear how very restrictive these policies are. It doesn't matter if the bank account is flush when you aren't allowed to spend any of it.

LD, your constant attacks on Irish rugby are just boring now, at least they used to be slightly amusing. This broken record thing you do is just dull now.

So just to clarify

The Irish are evil because the unions control the provincial budgets
The English are evil because there's rich owners willing to put money in
The French are evil because there's rich owners willing to put money in AND they want to scrap the Champions Cup
The Scots are evil because they sold their soul to BT at the last negotiations

Got it

That's about right bambam.
And the welsh just like a bun fight