Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

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Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by Sin é on Mon 21 Mar 2016, 4:56 pm

First topic message reminder :

and replace it with a Euro Super League

Looks like he wants more Celts in it - 6 French, 6 English & 8 Pro12

http://www.the42.ie/mourad-boudjellal-european-super-league-2671582-Mar2016/

I'd prefer this to any old B&I league.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by bumble on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 12:20 pm

Munchkin wrote:
bumble wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
The evidence, and the reality, is there for all to see. Toulon, and other wealthy clubs, are outbidding clubs for the players they are signing. That's a fact. That's how it works, and that's why the Regions have lost some of their top players to France, and England. And that's why NZ and SA are losing players from S15/18 That's all you need to know. There is a bidding process involving clubs and players agents, and players will go with the highest bidder, in most cases.

I may be missing something here, but what's the problem with this?

There isn't a problem with that. The argument is that the rush for top players, mostly by wealthy French clubs, caused a spike in player wage inflation, which is a problem.

That is always going to happen. In most professional sports this happens.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by ScarletSpiderman on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 12:21 pm

Munchkin wrote:
bumble wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
The evidence, and the reality, is there for all to see. Toulon, and other wealthy clubs, are outbidding clubs for the players they are signing. That's a fact. That's how it works, and that's why the Regions have lost some of their top players to France, and England. And that's why NZ and SA are losing players from S15/18 That's all you need to know. There is a bidding process involving clubs and players agents, and players will go with the highest bidder, in most cases.

I may be missing something here, but what's the problem with this?

There isn't a problem with that. The argument is that the rush for top players, mostly by wealthy French clubs, caused a spike in player wage inflation, which is a problem.

So there is no problem with sides raising the price of players by trying to outbid each other, yet the fact the French clubs are doing it is a problem?

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by Munchkin on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 12:23 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:Munchkin, I get that based on the knowledge that they are run by business people, and whilst they are done as a hobby, it is still money, and business folk are not keen on throwing their money away.  If they could sign a world class player for £5 a match, they would.

Also, it does seem that there is a fair bit of pleading innocence going on, and wanting to blame others.  We have all caused this situation.  Toulon are spending a heap of money now.  However they are not the ones who started this whole arms race for the best players, regardless of the price.  They are just he latest side that have the means to do so.  

The Llanelli RFC have played their part in all of this, we signed Frano Botica for what would have been megabucks, Cardiff RFC (and the Blues), and Newport RFC (and Dragons) spent considerable amounts of cash signing players from the southern hemisphere and from other welsh sides.  The dawn of regionalism was marked with a mad rush down south to see who we could bring over with our new found cash.  The Irish provinces (mainly Leinster and Munster) played their part when they were the European big boys, they brought over some real quality overseas lads.

That isn't much of a basis, Scarlets. Yes, it's a hobby to some, but these guys are incredibly competitive, and will pay top dollar for the best, which they do. It's an auction filled with the very rich willing to outbid each other, and outbid for as many players as they can. That's why we have the spike in player wages. Remember, it isn't so much their own money (although that obviously plays a big part for some), but the wealth created by the massive broadcasting deals, and the paying public.

Yes, I get that plenty of clubs have signed top quality. That kind of misses my point though. It isn't signing the big names that created the spike in player wage inflation (there's always been a spread of star players), but the rush to buy up these players, mainly by the big French clubs, and because of the wealth at their disposal.

Ok lets flip this back to you (as the good old days always went), what do you have to support your believe that the backers of clubs are so careless with their money that they are willing to spend more than is required to get a player?  Have you seen anything where a player has said 'heck I would have gone to Toulon for £300k a year, but they made me take a £750k deal', because to be honest that just seems beyond the realms of reality to me, hobby or not.

The evidence, and the reality, is there for all to see. Toulon, and other wealthy clubs, are outbidding clubs for the players they are signing. That's a fact. That's how it works, and that's why the Regions have lost some of their top players to France, and England. And that's why NZ and SA are losing players from S15/18 That's all you need to know. There is a bidding process involving clubs and players agents, and players will go with the highest bidder, in most cases.

Nobody said they were not outbidding people.  I said that they are spending as much as is required to secure the player, and that they are not spending more than is actually required, but now you are saying that it is a case of them paying so much because they need to.  Please try and stay on track with your own argument boss, it makes things so much easier for the rest of us if you do.

Yes, as much as required, and in a bidding process against other wealthy clubs the 'required' is driven up. That's player wage inflation in a nutshell. That is me staying on tract. I think you have lost yourself somewhere in this debate, scarlets.....

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by Munchkin on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 12:27 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
bumble wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
The evidence, and the reality, is there for all to see. Toulon, and other wealthy clubs, are outbidding clubs for the players they are signing. That's a fact. That's how it works, and that's why the Regions have lost some of their top players to France, and England. And that's why NZ and SA are losing players from S15/18 That's all you need to know. There is a bidding process involving clubs and players agents, and players will go with the highest bidder, in most cases.

I may be missing something here, but what's the problem with this?

There isn't a problem with that. The argument is that the rush for top players, mostly by wealthy French clubs, caused a spike in player wage inflation, which is a problem.

So there is no problem with sides raising the price of players by trying to outbid each other, yet the fact the French clubs are doing it is a problem?

Ha! I've already explained that player wage inflation is natural, just as any wage inflation is, but the wealth of certain clubs, and the more recent massive broadcasting deals, have meant a rush of signing top quality players, and it's this rush, as the wealthy bid against each other, that has caused a spike in player wage inflation. Can you not understand something as simple as this?

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 12:28 pm

Munchkin, it's not just the French clubs though is it ? 

Over the years, how much did Leinster offer Rocky Elsom for his stint in Ireland ? How much have Ulster offered Charles Pitau to play for them ? How much did Munster offer Doug Howlet to play for them ? 

It is always happening, somebody will outbid someone, and the rich French clubs are not the only one's who have been doing this. They are the one's doing it now, and that is why you are only seeing it as a problem, because the provinces are missing out on players they used to have a good chance at signing.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by ScarletSpiderman on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 12:31 pm

Munchkin wrote:I think you have lost yourself somewhere in this debate, scarlets.....

I got lost when I said they would be happy to spend as little as possible to sign a player, and threw a random low price (£5 I think), and then you said there was no basis for it. I said business men don't like wasting money, and you said there was no facts to back it up. Or that is how I read it.

Anyway, not worth falling out over. If you are sure you are still on point, I will accept that I must have just missed that point

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by ScarletSpiderman on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 12:34 pm

Munchkin wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
bumble wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
The evidence, and the reality, is there for all to see. Toulon, and other wealthy clubs, are outbidding clubs for the players they are signing. That's a fact. That's how it works, and that's why the Regions have lost some of their top players to France, and England. And that's why NZ and SA are losing players from S15/18 That's all you need to know. There is a bidding process involving clubs and players agents, and players will go with the highest bidder, in most cases.

I may be missing something here, but what's the problem with this?

There isn't a problem with that. The argument is that the rush for top players, mostly by wealthy French clubs, caused a spike in player wage inflation, which is a problem.

So there is no problem with sides raising the price of players by trying to outbid each other, yet the fact the French clubs are doing it is a problem?

Ha! I've already explained that player wage inflation is natural, just as any wage inflation is, but the wealth of certain clubs, and the more recent massive broadcasting deals, have meant a rush of signing top quality players, and it's this rush, as the wealthy bid against each other, that has caused a spike in player wage inflation. Can you not understand something as simple as this?

I fully understand it. But I see that rush as part of the natural inflation of wages. It seems natural to me that as more money enters the game, more money will be used on trying to buy success. It would seem unnatural for there to be more money coming into the game, and that money being put into the shareholders pockets instead (seeing as we all know it is just a hobby).

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by Munchkin on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 12:35 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Munchkin, it's not just the French clubs though is it ? 

Over the years, how much did Leinster offer Rocky Elsom for his stint in Ireland ? How much have Ulster offered Charles Pitau to play for them ? How much did Munster offer Doug Howlet to play for them ? 

It is always happening, somebody will outbid someone, and the rich French clubs are not the only one's who have been doing this. They are the one's doing it now, and that is why you are only seeing it as a problem, because the provinces are missing out on players they used to have a good chance at signing.

You have made this point before, and I have answered it. They, the French, have always 'done it', but there's been a chance in how they 'do it', and that change has been brought about by the rise in clubs, such as Toulon, and the new found wealth created by massive broadcasting deals. It isn't about signing the odd top quality player here, and there. It's about a surge in buying top players.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by Munchkin on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 12:37 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
bumble wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
The evidence, and the reality, is there for all to see. Toulon, and other wealthy clubs, are outbidding clubs for the players they are signing. That's a fact. That's how it works, and that's why the Regions have lost some of their top players to France, and England. And that's why NZ and SA are losing players from S15/18 That's all you need to know. There is a bidding process involving clubs and players agents, and players will go with the highest bidder, in most cases.

I may be missing something here, but what's the problem with this?

There isn't a problem with that. The argument is that the rush for top players, mostly by wealthy French clubs, caused a spike in player wage inflation, which is a problem.

So there is no problem with sides raising the price of players by trying to outbid each other, yet the fact the French clubs are doing it is a problem?

Ha! I've already explained that player wage inflation is natural, just as any wage inflation is, but the wealth of certain clubs, and the more recent massive broadcasting deals, have meant a rush of signing top quality players, and it's this rush, as the wealthy bid against each other, that has caused a spike in player wage inflation. Can you not understand something as simple as this?

I fully understand it.  But I see that rush as part of the natural inflation of wages.  It seems natural to me that as more money enters the game, more money will be used on trying to buy success.  It would seem unnatural for there to be more money coming into the game, and that money being put into the shareholders pockets instead (seeing as we all know it is just a hobby).

You see a spike as natural? Anyway, we finally agree, regardless of how we got there.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 12:38 pm

SS, what I can make of it is, it was not a problem when the provinces were outbidding others for players, but now they are the one's being outbid, it is all of a sudden a problem. 

Well Ireland should brace themselves for it, the Welsh clubs have been fighting this for over a decade now. Christ I remember Munster nicking Chris Wyatt of Scarlets about ten years ago.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by bumble on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 12:42 pm

Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Munchkin, it's not just the French clubs though is it ? 

Over the years, how much did Leinster offer Rocky Elsom for his stint in Ireland ? How much have Ulster offered Charles Pitau to play for them ? How much did Munster offer Doug Howlet to play for them ? 

It is always happening, somebody will outbid someone, and the rich French clubs are not the only one's who have been doing this. They are the one's doing it now, and that is why you are only seeing it as a problem, because the provinces are missing out on players they used to have a good chance at signing.

You have made this point before, and I have answered it. They, the French, have always 'done it', but there's been a chance in how they 'do it', and that change has been brought about by the rise in clubs, such as Toulon, and the new found wealth created by massive broadcasting deals. It isn't about signing the odd top quality player here, and there. It's about a surge in buying top players.

Why is it the French clubs that are to be blamed if their league attracts loads of money because it is a really good product? It's up to other leagues to play catch up rather than complain about it being unfair surely?

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by ScarletSpiderman on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 12:43 pm

Munchkin, I'm not sure it's a spike. It's been a gradual thing from where I sit. Starting with the likes of Botica, one or two non locals in the team, then getting to the start of regionalism, six to eight non national in the team, with a fair few non locals. To now lots of non nationals, a heap of non locals, and a few local lads. The only difference between Toulon and the rest of us is the quality of player.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by Munchkin on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 12:43 pm

LordDowlais wrote:SS, what I can make of it is, it was not a problem when the provinces were outbidding others for players, but now they are the one's being outbid, it is all of a sudden a problem. 

Well Ireland should brace themselves for it, the Welsh clubs have been fighting this for over a decade now. Christ I remember Munster nicking Chris Wyatt of Scarlets about ten years ago.

That's BS. You are superimposing your own thinking on to what has actually been said. It isn't just the Provinces that are fighting to keep up with player wage inflation. Just ask any one from Scotland, Italy, Wales, SA and NZ. There wasn't a problem before the surge in signing top players. Things ticked along. You chose to ignore that though.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 12:44 pm

Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Munchkin, it's not just the French clubs though is it ? 

Over the years, how much did Leinster offer Rocky Elsom for his stint in Ireland ? How much have Ulster offered Charles Pitau to play for them ? How much did Munster offer Doug Howlet to play for them ? 

It is always happening, somebody will outbid someone, and the rich French clubs are not the only one's who have been doing this. They are the one's doing it now, and that is why you are only seeing it as a problem, because the provinces are missing out on players they used to have a good chance at signing.

You have made this point before, and I have answered it. They, the French, have always 'done it', but there's been a chance in how they 'do it', and that change has been brought about by the rise in clubs, such as Toulon, and the new found wealth created by massive broadcasting deals. It isn't about signing the odd top quality player here, and there. It's about a surge in buying top players.


What ?

It does not matter if you outbid for 1 player or 100 players, it only takes one player to be paid a kings ransom to set the tone. Anyway, how many All Blacks did Munster have playing for them back in the day ? I remember them doing their own Haka when Munster played the All Blacks.

Irish provinces have been outbidding other teams for years, they are as much to blame in "wage spikes" as you call it, as any other teams over the years.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 12:47 pm

The Welsh have done it to though. Don't ignore it.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by Munchkin on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 12:48 pm

bumble wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Munchkin, it's not just the French clubs though is it ? 

Over the years, how much did Leinster offer Rocky Elsom for his stint in Ireland ? How much have Ulster offered Charles Pitau to play for them ? How much did Munster offer Doug Howlet to play for them ? 

It is always happening, somebody will outbid someone, and the rich French clubs are not the only one's who have been doing this. They are the one's doing it now, and that is why you are only seeing it as a problem, because the provinces are missing out on players they used to have a good chance at signing.

You have made this point before, and I have answered it. They, the French, have always 'done it', but there's been a chance in how they 'do it', and that change has been brought about by the rise in clubs, such as Toulon, and the new found wealth created by massive broadcasting deals. It isn't about signing the odd top quality player here, and there. It's about a surge in buying top players.

Why is it the French clubs that are to be blamed if their league attracts loads of money because it is a really good product? It's up to other leagues to play catch up rather than complain about it being unfair surely?

Depends which way you see it, I guess. If you are happy to see the rich creaming the talent of the poor, and think this is right, then fair enough. Personally, I would have liked to see more checks and balances imposed, to help ensure a more level playing field, but maybe I'm too much of an idealist. It's a dog eat dog world, and damn the weak, or any pretence at buuilding teams from local resources. Just buy success, if you have the money. It's easier ..... for some.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by bumble on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 12:50 pm

Munchkin wrote:
Depends which way you see it, I guess. If you are happy to see the rich creaming the talent of the poor, and think this is right, then fair enough. Personally, I would have liked to see more checks and balances imposed, to help ensure a more level playing field, but maybe I'm too much of an idealist. It's a dog eat dog world, and damn the weak, or any pretence at buuilding teams from local resources. Just buy success, if you have the money. It's easier ..... for some.

What else are they supposed to buy? Their product commands a massive tv deal. They invest in their teams and hotels etc. They earned that money by making it the league it is.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by Munchkin on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 12:51 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Munchkin, it's not just the French clubs though is it ? 

Over the years, how much did Leinster offer Rocky Elsom for his stint in Ireland ? How much have Ulster offered Charles Pitau to play for them ? How much did Munster offer Doug Howlet to play for them ? 

It is always happening, somebody will outbid someone, and the rich French clubs are not the only one's who have been doing this. They are the one's doing it now, and that is why you are only seeing it as a problem, because the provinces are missing out on players they used to have a good chance at signing.

You have made this point before, and I have answered it. They, the French, have always 'done it', but there's been a chance in how they 'do it', and that change has been brought about by the rise in clubs, such as Toulon, and the new found wealth created by massive broadcasting deals. It isn't about signing the odd top quality player here, and there. It's about a surge in buying top players.


What ?

It does not matter if you outbid for 1 player or 100 players, it only takes one player to be paid a kings ransom to set the tone. Anyway, how many All Blacks did Munster have playing for them back in the day ? I remember them doing their own Haka when Munster played the All Blacks.

Irish provinces have been outbidding other teams for years, they are as much to blame in "wage spikes" as you call it, as any other teams over the years.

Ha! The Munster 'All Blacks'!!!! You live in a wee world of your own, LD. Name the team, and break it down for me. Name each player, and where they came from?


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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by Munchkin on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 12:56 pm

bumble wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Depends which way you see it, I guess. If you are happy to see the rich creaming the talent of the poor, and think this is right, then fair enough. Personally, I would have liked to see more checks and balances imposed, to help ensure a more level playing field, but maybe I'm too much of an idealist. It's a dog eat dog world, and damn the weak, or any pretence at buuilding teams from local resources. Just buy success, if you have the money. It's easier ..... for some.

What else are they supposed to buy? Their product commands a massive tv deal. They invest in their teams and hotels etc. They earned that money by making it the league it is.

Like I said, if that's what floats your boat, then live it. Personally, I don't agree with it at all. I'm completely opposed to your way of thinking, in sport, but this isn't about the rights or wrongs, of it. It's about the fact that it happens.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by bumble on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 1:00 pm

Munchkin wrote:
bumble wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Depends which way you see it, I guess. If you are happy to see the rich creaming the talent of the poor, and think this is right, then fair enough. Personally, I would have liked to see more checks and balances imposed, to help ensure a more level playing field, but maybe I'm too much of an idealist. It's a dog eat dog world, and damn the weak, or any pretence at buuilding teams from local resources. Just buy success, if you have the money. It's easier ..... for some.

What else are they supposed to buy? Their product commands a massive tv deal. They invest in their teams and hotels etc. They earned that money by making it the league it is.

Like I said, if that's what floats your boat, then live it. Personally, I don't agree with it at all. I'm completely opposed to your way of thinking, in sport, but this isn't about the rights or wrongs, of it. It's about the fact that it happens.

I'm at a loss to see what alternative there is. The huge Canal tv deal is part of your gripe ,as you have stated. So I'm not sure what you could possibly do at this stage to stop the next stage, which is the people who have been given all that money spending it. It's just the way of the world.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by Munchkin on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 1:00 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Munchkin, I'm not sure it's a spike.  It's been a gradual thing from where I sit.  Starting with the likes of Botica, one or two non locals in the team, then getting to the start of regionalism, six to eight non national in the team, with a fair few non locals.  To now lots of non nationals, a heap of non locals, and a few local lads.  The only difference between Toulon and the rest of us is the quality of player.

Well, if rugby union is to grow, you would want a natural growth in competitions, players wages, and so on. The massive money brought in by broadcasting deals was probably expected, but it did go against the trend. This in turn caused the spike in player wages. The consequence was natural, but the spike in trend wasn't.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by Munchkin on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 1:04 pm

bumble wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
bumble wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Depends which way you see it, I guess. If you are happy to see the rich creaming the talent of the poor, and think this is right, then fair enough. Personally, I would have liked to see more checks and balances imposed, to help ensure a more level playing field, but maybe I'm too much of an idealist. It's a dog eat dog world, and damn the weak, or any pretence at buuilding teams from local resources. Just buy success, if you have the money. It's easier ..... for some.

What else are they supposed to buy? Their product commands a massive tv deal. They invest in their teams and hotels etc. They earned that money by making it the league it is.

Like I said, if that's what floats your boat, then live it. Personally, I don't agree with it at all. I'm completely opposed to your way of thinking, in sport, but this isn't about the rights or wrongs, of it. It's about the fact that it happens.

I'm at a loss to see what alternative there is. The huge Canal tv deal is part of your gripe ,as you have stated. So I'm not sure what you could possibly do at this stage to stop the next stage, which is the people who have been given all that money spending it. It's just the way of the world.

Restrictions on spending would have been the obvious answer, and although there was/are restrictions in place, they don't, or didn't, go far enough. Also a tighter cap on signing foreign imports would have helped. The alternatives are easy to come up with, but the money wins.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by bumble on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 1:09 pm

Munchkin wrote:

Restrictions on spending would have been the obvious answer, and although there was/are restrictions in place, they don't, or didn't, go far enough. Also a tighter cap on signing foreign imports would have helped. The alternatives are easy to come up with, but the money wins.

There's probably some law against that though. A business earns x amount of money, but is only allowed to spend y. I'm sure the Toulon owner wouldn't be too impressed with that. The salary cap is enough of a legal headache as it is.

There is a balance to be had though I appreciate that.

As for the cap on foreign imports - again not the clubs' fault.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by bumble on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 1:15 pm

There is a certain irony here though - that being - that the Irish complain about an unfair financial level playing field in European terms, yet that thinking isn't transposed to the Pro12 seemingly - where certain teams benefit from being awarded free loans of millions from their Union, and other non Union teams are fighting to stay in business.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by Munchkin on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 1:19 pm

bumble wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

Restrictions on spending would have been the obvious answer, and although there was/are restrictions in place, they don't, or didn't, go far enough. Also a tighter cap on signing foreign imports would have helped. The alternatives are easy to come up with, but the money wins.

There's probably some law against that though. A business earns x amount of money, but is only allowed to spend y. I'm sure the Toulon owner wouldn't be too impressed with that. The salary cap is enough of a legal headache as it is.

There is a balance to be had though I appreciate that.

As for the cap on foreign imports - again not the clubs' fault.

Well, it is the clubs fault. They vote for what they get, and bitch and moan about what they don't get. The Unions are at fault as well. They let it slide.

Oh yes, the Law... Forget about the rules certain clubs agreed to. Forget that the rules were put in place in the interest of 'a level playing field'. Stuff the rules when you have the Law to trample all over the rules that you signed up to, and the spirit in which they were intended.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by Munchkin on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 1:22 pm

bumble wrote:There is a certain irony here though - that being -  that the Irish complain about an unfair financial level playing field in European terms, yet that thinking isn't transposed to the Pro12 seemingly - where certain teams benefit from being awarded free loans of millions from their Union, and other non Union teams are fighting to stay in business.

The only irony is that it's a couple of Welsh posters moaning about the Irish wage levels, not the Irish moaning about the 'unfairness' of it all. That's the Welsh posters on this thread.

There is a poster moaning about Irish wage levels, and how unfair it is to the Regions, and completely ignoring the the super rich clubs, like Toulon, who do more to drive up their on players wage, than anyone else. Yet all we are seeing here is some of these posters acting as apologists for these same super rich clubs. That's irony.

The irony being that you seem to have missed that.....



Last edited by Munchkin on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 1:30 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by bumble on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 1:25 pm

"The Law" becomes alot more salient when you are a business in your own right, and have to adhere to it and abide by such functions as articles of association etc, rather than have your Union do it all for you. I think that's easily forgotten.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by Munchkin on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 1:33 pm

bumble wrote:"The Law" becomes alot more salient when you are a business in your own right, and have to adhere to it and abide by such functions as articles of association etc, rather than have your Union do it all for you. I think that's easily forgotten.

Sorry, that's nonsense. The clubs don't have to adhere to it. Nobody is forcing these clubs to use the Law to get there own way, and break the rules they signed up to in the process. Neither are they required by law to do so. They are manipulating the law to get their own way. That much is obvious.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by Comfort on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 1:33 pm

Bumble, you're making far too much sense..... Smile

All countries/leagues, at one time or another in history to now, have held the upper hand in neogotiating, financially or otherwise. Its common knowledge that the welsh regions have been struggling to hold on to their own players developed through the academies over the last few years, let alone attract top foreign players with big budgets.

Honestly, to those complaining that the French league has secured such a good TV deal, and thus the teams have more money to spend on their squads, I say....

welcome to our world  Hug

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by VinceWLB on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 1:43 pm

Comfort wrote:Bumble, you're making far too much sense..... Smile

All countries/leagues, at one time or another in history to now, have held the upper hand in neogotiating, financially or otherwise. Its common knowledge that the welsh regions have been struggling to hold on to their own players developed through the academies over the last few years, let alone attract top foreign players with big budgets.

Honestly, to those complaining that the French league has secured such a good TV deal, and thus the teams have more money to spend on their squads, I say....

welcome to our world  Hug

They only secured a good tv deal because someone from UAE decided to run a channel, namely Bein sport, so Canal + had to throw some crazy money away at the expense of soccer (which went to Bein) to outbid them. They aren't getting a better TV deal because of the quality of the rugby that is on show, that's for sure.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by The Great Aukster on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 1:44 pm

In a professional sport money is king - by definition.

What surprises me is there are Pro12 fans who cannot see that the Euro Super league proposal is the best way for Pro12 teams to compete at a high level with player exposure etc.

What other way are they going to get a share of the French and English tv markets?

As for killing the Pro12, it could be the opposite where the Pro12 becomes the League for other European nations to potentially gain access to the Euro Super League. Those aspirant nations wanting to justify higher Test status need to prove they can sustain a pro team at club level first. Georgia, Portugal, Romania and Spain should be able to provide a team each that would be a proving ground for their Test Players, but more crucially grow the game in their countries and potentially the revenues for the Pro12 with a much wider market.


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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by Munchkin on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 1:45 pm

Comfort wrote:Bumble, you're making far too much sense..... Smile

All countries/leagues, at one time or another in history to now, have held the upper hand in neogotiating, financially or otherwise. Its common knowledge that the welsh regions have been struggling to hold on to their own players developed through the academies over the last few years, let alone attract top foreign players with big budgets.

Honestly, to those complaining that the French league has secured such a good TV deal, and thus the teams have more money to spend on their squads, I say....

welcome to our world  Hug

It was me that was making those points, you seem to whole heartedly agree with, and it was a certain Welsh poster that was doing the moaning.

Welcome to my world .....

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by ScarletSpiderman on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 1:48 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:The Welsh have done it to though. Don't ignore it.

That has been recognised by us all, and we have pretty much all said it is not just the French, but everyone that is responsible for the situation we have now. Well bar those who think it is more of an issue now, with the French than it was before.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by bumble on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 1:51 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:In a professional sport money is king - by definition.

What surprises me is there are Pro12 fans who cannot see that the Euro Super league proposal is the best way for Pro12 teams to compete at a high level with player exposure etc.

What other way are they going to get a share of the French and English tv markets?

As for killing the Pro12, it could be the opposite where the Pro12 becomes the League for other European nations to potentially gain access to the Euro Super League. Those aspirant nations wanting to justify higher Test status need to prove they can sustain a pro team at club level first. Georgia, Portugal, Romania and Spain should be able to provide a team each that would be a proving ground for their Test Players, but more crucially grow the game in their countries and potentially the revenues for the Pro12 with a much wider market.


Agree with most of that, but I'm afraid a Pr012 fixture of Cardiff v Tiblisi doesn't particularly enthrall.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by Munchkin on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 1:52 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:In a professional sport money is king - by definition.

What surprises me is there are Pro12 fans who cannot see that the Euro Super league proposal is the best way for Pro12 teams to compete at a high level with player exposure etc.

What other way are they going to get a share of the French and English tv markets?

As for killing the Pro12, it could be the opposite where the Pro12 becomes the League for other European nations to potentially gain access to the Euro Super League. Those aspirant nations wanting to justify higher Test status need to prove they can sustain a pro team at club level first. Georgia, Portugal, Romania and Spain should be able to provide a team each that would be a proving ground for their Test Players, but more crucially grow the game in their countries and potentially the revenues for the Pro12 with a much wider market.


Ideally, I would agree with you. Realistically, it's pie in the sky, and for a whole host of reasons. I doubt very much the Pro12 would survive. I don't think most of the teams you mention could afford the Pro12. The idea of the competition does have a certain appeal, but it would mean 4 teams going to the wall, and one of those teams could well be one of the Provinces. A B&I has been mentioned, but the English sides are never going to agree to that. We would also be lumped in with club owners who have a reputation for stirring trouble. It wouldn't go well.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by Comfort on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 1:57 pm

Munchkin wrote:
Comfort wrote:Bumble, you're making far too much sense..... Smile

All countries/leagues, at one time or another in history to now, have held the upper hand in neogotiating, financially or otherwise. Its common knowledge that the welsh regions have been struggling to hold on to their own players developed through the academies over the last few years, let alone attract top foreign players with big budgets.

Honestly, to those complaining that the French league has secured such a good TV deal, and thus the teams have more money to spend on their squads, I say....

welcome to our world  Hug

It was me that was making those points, you seem to whole heartedly agree with, and it was a certain Welsh poster that was doing the moaning.

Welcome to my world .....

haha no dig munchkin, just wanted to add some balance that most of us welsh dont think its unfair, its a business at the end of the day (a sporting one admittedly, which means you'd be hoping for an even playing field by default but hey ho).


who wouldnt want to watch Cardiff v Tiblisi ?? Erm

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by ScarletSpiderman on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 2:19 pm

VinceWLB wrote:
Comfort wrote:Bumble, you're making far too much sense..... Smile

All countries/leagues, at one time or another in history to now, have held the upper hand in neogotiating, financially or otherwise. Its common knowledge that the welsh regions have been struggling to hold on to their own players developed through the academies over the last few years, let alone attract top foreign players with big budgets.

Honestly, to those complaining that the French league has secured such a good TV deal, and thus the teams have more money to spend on their squads, I say....

welcome to our world  Hug

They only secured a good tv deal because someone from UAE decided to run a channel, namely Bein sport, so Canal + had to throw some crazy money away at the expense of soccer (which went to Bein) to outbid them. They aren't getting a better TV deal because of the quality of the rugby that is on show, that's for sure.

Lets, just for argument sake, pretend that BeinSport had decided that they wanted to buy into the Pro12 instead, and again for argument sake, that we didn't bicker amongst ourselves about it, but accepted their money. Would the Provinces, Regions, or Clubs in the Pro12 have done any different than the French? Ok, the volume of southern hemisphere players are theoretically capped by the Provinces and Regions, but not by the Scottish or Italians. Also, the regions are already fully aware of loopholes around NWQ limits (register them to the welsh prem side, and play them under permit as required). I would love to say that we would not have gone down the route of bulk buying NWQ/NIQ players but I just cant see it.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by Munchkin on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 2:32 pm

Comfort wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Comfort wrote:Bumble, you're making far too much sense..... Smile

All countries/leagues, at one time or another in history to now, have held the upper hand in neogotiating, financially or otherwise. Its common knowledge that the welsh regions have been struggling to hold on to their own players developed through the academies over the last few years, let alone attract top foreign players with big budgets.

Honestly, to those complaining that the French league has secured such a good TV deal, and thus the teams have more money to spend on their squads, I say....

welcome to our world  Hug

It was me that was making those points, you seem to whole heartedly agree with, and it was a certain Welsh poster that was doing the moaning.

Welcome to my world .....

haha no dig munchkin, just wanted to add some balance that most of us welsh dont think its unfair, its a business at the end of the day (a sporting one admittedly, which means you'd be hoping for an even playing field by default but hey ho).


who wouldnt want to watch Cardiff v Tiblisi ?? Erm

Ah, that's more than fair. I know most of the Welsh are fine with it. My only reason for mentioning it was a Welsh poster, or two, is that there's constant reference to 'the Irish', as if we were constantly moaning about perceived unfairness (that would be LD). It is a business, and although I do see that it isn't a level playing field (I would really like there to be), we just have to get on with it, and make the best with what we have, and we are, I think.

heh, not sure about Tiblisi, but always have time for Cardiff Very Happy


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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by profitius on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 2:41 pm

bumble wrote:There is a certain irony here though - that being -  that the Irish complain about an unfair financial level playing field in European terms, yet that thinking isn't transposed to the Pro12 seemingly - where certain teams benefit from being awarded free loans of millions from their Union, and other non Union teams are fighting to stay in business.


We were complaining about how the European money was going to be divided up. It started off being divided up per country (though English and French leagues still got twice as much as any country) but that changed to it being divided up per league.


The Welsh complain about the standard of the Pro12, 24/7 but they also complain that Irish teams can keep their own players and buy in one or two quality overseas signings, which helps the league!


Unions supplement the provinces
Unions supplement the regions


What do the WRU put into the Welsh regions?

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 3:07 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:The Welsh have done it to though. Don't ignore it.


I know, and if you have read through this thread you will see that I have pointed towards it. I've named some very high profile players and all. Rolling Eyes

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by ScarletSpiderman on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 3:08 pm

Munchkin wrote:Ah, that's more than fair. I know most of the Welsh are fine with it. My only reason for mentioning it was a Welsh poster, or two, is that there's constant reference to 'the Irish', as if we were constantly moaning about perceived unfairness (that would be LD). It is a business, and although I do see that it isn't a level playing field (I would really like there to be), we just have to get on with it, and make the best with what we have, and we are, I think.

This whole 'some welsh' and 'some Irish' or 'the welsh' and the 'irish' nonsense is really starting to grate for everyone now. Why can't people just come out and be honest about who it is they are narked with, after all we are all grown ups Hug furious Hug

Also, the whole inter-pro12 bunfight was started by Thebandwagonsociety on the third post of this thread, so it was all the irish posters fault Whistle Whistle

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by Comfort on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 3:14 pm

I will complain about the standard of refereeing, the coaching (welsh regions mainly admittedly) and the general standard of play in the pro 12 until the cows come home (and probably knock on over the line if they play for a welsh region...)

The WRU have chosen their approach, top down, hence why team wales does well, generally at the expense of the regions. Its this that a lot of us have a problem with, I think we're heading in the right direction, very slowly, but the problem is everyone else seems to be heading the same way at a faster pace from a better start.

Wales are notoriously slow starters, Gatlands been on record repeatedly to state thats because of the level his players are playing at week in week out, the Pro 12, they dont get much high intesnity gametime at Euro level as they get spanked and drop out before things heat up (they never enter the latter stages). It also explains a lot of the (much publicised) fitness work theyve done to compensate for this, so its not just a view created by welsh fans and purpetuated as to why we are doing badly.

This also adds weight to the belief that hes trying to create 2 super regions (Scarlets/Ospreys) to comete at RCC level, and have the other 2 at the lower euro level. Completely off thread (apologies) but thought I'd try add some clarity to some complaints from us welshmen! mo1

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by carpet baboon on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 3:14 pm

But back to the actual topic. I think it's a good idea. I like that he's talked about promotion and relegation. And coming right after NZ want a discussion on the global season iits well placed to be given some serious thought.

But, and the biggest of big buts, I can't see how the different unions, clubs, provinces and regions will ever find a common ground to go forward with,and the worst thing to do would be to force through a ill fitting league that's alienated half the participants.

In theory it's the best idea for theNH. In reality I can't see it happening

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by bumble on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 3:17 pm

profitius wrote:
bumble wrote:There is a certain irony here though - that being -  that the Irish complain about an unfair financial level playing field in European terms, yet that thinking isn't transposed to the Pro12 seemingly - where certain teams benefit from being awarded free loans of millions from their Union, and other non Union teams are fighting to stay in business.


We were complaining about how the European money was going to be divided up. It started off being divided up per country (though English and French leagues still got twice as much as any country) but that changed to it being divided up per league.


The Welsh complain about the standard of the Pro12, 24/7 but they also complain that Irish teams can keep their own players and buy in one or two quality overseas signings, which helps the league!


Unions supplement the provinces
Unions supplement the regions


What do the WRU put into the Welsh regions?

I'm referring to the complaints about the "massive broadcasting deals" that have been made on this thread. Like companies investing tens of millions of pounds into rugby is a BAD thing, because it's not going where those individuals want it to go.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 3:19 pm

Munchkin wrote:as if we were constantly moaning about perceived unfairness (that would be LD)

picard

This accusation is getting VERY boring now. It is the route you and a few of your countrymen take when you are on a losing debate.

I was only pointing out your hypocrisy when it came to moaning about the French with their spending, and tried pointing out to you that we ALL have been guilty of it, and it is ALL our fault, but you, yet again do not accept any wrong doing from an Irish point of view.

So lets make something clear, I have NO agenda against Irish/Ireland or Irish rugby. What I am against is though, the self righteous members on here who think that they are always the one's who are put upon by the other unions and that their union has always been perfect and is indeed the Shangri-la of the rugby world.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by bumble on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 3:20 pm

carpet baboon wrote:But back to the actual topic. I think it's a good idea. I like that he's talked about promotion and relegation. And coming right after NZ want a discussion on the global season iits well placed to be given some serious thought.

But, and the biggest of big buts, I can't see how the different unions, clubs, provinces and regions will ever find a common ground to go forward with,and the worst thing to do would be to force through a ill fitting league that's alienated half the participants.

In theory it's the best idea for theNH. In reality I can't see it happening

How would you envisage promotion and relegation working for the Celtic countries?

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by Comfort on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 3:21 pm

"In theory it's the best idea for the NH. In reality I can't see it happening" Ale

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by ScarletSpiderman on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 3:25 pm

profitius wrote:
bumble wrote:There is a certain irony here though - that being -  that the Irish complain about an unfair financial level playing field in European terms, yet that thinking isn't transposed to the Pro12 seemingly - where certain teams benefit from being awarded free loans of millions from their Union, and other non Union teams are fighting to stay in business.


We were complaining about how the European money was going to be divided up. It started off being divided up per country (though English and French leagues still got twice as much as any country) but that changed to it being divided up per league.


The Welsh complain about the standard of the Pro12, 24/7 but they also complain that Irish teams can keep their own players and buy in one or two quality overseas signings, which helps the league!


Unions supplement the provinces
Unions supplement the regions


What do the WRU put into the Welsh regions?

I honestly could not say how much the union put into the regions, and also it all depends on what is classed as the union putting money into them, and what is classed as the regions being given their payments from TV deals etc via the union.

I am not too sure the welsh complain about the league 24/7, or even that those that do complain about it complain that often. Although there is a similarity with the complaints about the RCC that I read on here too. In reality a number of the posts could almost be copy&paste jobs just with the names of teams and nationalities being changed out.

But truth be told the Pro12 has sides that are owned, funded and ran as part of the union, we have teams that are partially funded by the unions whilst being separate businesses, and we have clubs that are stand alone clubs. So when it comes to the whole level playing field there will never be one, as there are pros and cons of each setup. The Provinces have the unions backing, but also have the unions constraints. The Regions have far less support from the union, but they have slightly more freedom over their futures. Treviso have pretty much total independence from their union, yet they also have minimal support from them too. Also the Irish have their NIQ quotas, the Welsh have their NWQ limits, but I believe the Scottish and Italians don't.

Should a SuperEuroRugby system begin we will have the unlevel pro12 problems, coupled with the English having their club/union balance, their play in England to play for England ruling, their salary cap (que the mocking) and also have their average of x% EQ players fielded stipulations. Oh and also the free for all of the French system (do they still have the JIFF rules?).

As many have said here, there will be no 'fair' level ground. There may be a 'compromised' level ground, which will then be bickered over no-end, with those who feel harshly done by accusing others of having their way at the expense of the 'rest of us', and those who believe they got the better deal it will be a case of telling the others that they had people at the negotiations and that if they are feeling screwed they can only blame their own people. Pretty much the same as we have now when the RCC debate comes up.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 3:27 pm

bumble wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:But back to the actual topic. I think it's a good idea. I like that he's talked about promotion and relegation. And coming right after NZ want a discussion on the global season iits well placed to be given some serious thought.

But, and the biggest of big buts, I can't see how the different unions, clubs, provinces and regions will ever find a common ground to go forward with,and the worst thing to do would be to force through a ill fitting league that's alienated half the participants.

In theory it's the best idea for theNH. In reality I can't see it happening

How would you envisage promotion and relegation working for the Celtic countries?

There is a link I posted on here where Mourad Boudjellal has said that the two levels below this super league would be a British and Irish/Italian league and a French league. The bottom sides in the super league would get relegated and promoted to and from those leagues, it seems a very good idea if you ask me.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/toulon-owner-calls-new-european-11076811

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by bumble on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 3:32 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
bumble wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:But back to the actual topic. I think it's a good idea. I like that he's talked about promotion and relegation. And coming right after NZ want a discussion on the global season iits well placed to be given some serious thought.

But, and the biggest of big buts, I can't see how the different unions, clubs, provinces and regions will ever find a common ground to go forward with,and the worst thing to do would be to force through a ill fitting league that's alienated half the participants.

In theory it's the best idea for theNH. In reality I can't see it happening

How would you envisage promotion and relegation working for the Celtic countries?

There is a link I posted on here where Mourad Boudjellal has said that the two levels below this super league would be a British and Irish/Italian league and a French league. The bottom sides in the super league would get relegated and promoted to and from those leagues, it seems a very good idea if you ask me.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/toulon-owner-calls-new-european-11076811

It still doesn't address the relegation for celtic countries. Say the Scarlets come above the Ospreys in the tier 1 competition, and Ulster are bottom of the 3 Irish provinces. Do Connacht and Cardiff as highest in the tier 2 comp replace the Ospreys and Ulster?

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