Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

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Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by Sin é on Mon 21 Mar 2016, 4:56 pm

First topic message reminder :

and replace it with a Euro Super League

Looks like he wants more Celts in it - 6 French, 6 English & 8 Pro12

http://www.the42.ie/mourad-boudjellal-european-super-league-2671582-Mar2016/

I'd prefer this to any old B&I league.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by marty2086 on Tue 22 Mar 2016, 3:15 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Sin é wrote:Its these owners with too much money who are destroying the whole thing. At least the Union clubs will live within their means and will not push wage levels like the French and English club are doing. For example, in general, the IRFU only try and keep our own.


You are wrong though, the union clubs DO NOT live within their means, they are getting extra money off the union. Although I do agree that the rich owners are destroying things.

And if they were privately owned they'd get the money from the owners there

Only off the one's who can afford it. But that's what makes it an uneven playing field. That is why there should be some sort of fair play system put in place, or salary cap.

The problem is where do you set it?

If you set it below what is spent by the Provinces you're handicapping the Provinces if you set it higher you're setting a pointless limit.

It seems the issue is reigning in the Irish rather than building the rest

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by LordDowlais on Tue 22 Mar 2016, 3:22 pm

marty2086 wrote:The problem is where do you set it?

If you set it below what is spent by the Provinces you're handicapping the Provinces if you set it higher you're setting a pointless limit.

It seems the issue is reigning in the Irish rather than building the rest

If it is all done fair and above board then nobody would be handicapped or reigned in. 

We would need transparency across the league. Each team would have to be honest and open to what their earnings are, just like in football, we could either then set a salary cap fair to ALL, or have some sort of fair play rule where each team does not spend beyond their means, but to do this every teams accounts need to be available.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by Munchkin on Tue 22 Mar 2016, 3:30 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Not disagreeing with much of that Notch, except the living within your means bit. It's not a level playing field, rich owners spend more on their clubs than what the clubs can earn, and the IRFU/SRU/IRFU spend more on the provinces/clubs than what they can earn. 

If each club/province/region was made to only operate within their means, then that would be a level playing field.

But surely you see that it's the rich owners spending so much that causes this imbalance? Clubs in England and France aren't getting in debt because of anything the IRFU are doing. They are getting in debt because of the Toulons and the Sarries of the rugby world. The Regions are not getting in debt because of the IRFU. If they are getting in debt, it is because they are trying to compete with the markets forces being driven by the like of Toulon.

You want the Regions to be on equal terms, financially, with the Provinces. Rather than the Regions raising their game to compete with the English and French clubs, you want the IRFU to invest less in the Provinces, to become less competitive in Europe, and to fall out of touch with our competition in Europe. You see how that will end?


Last edited by Munchkin on Tue 22 Mar 2016, 3:35 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 22 Mar 2016, 3:31 pm

If no one was handicapped what is the point of a cap?

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by marty2086 on Tue 22 Mar 2016, 3:36 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:The problem is where do you set it?

If you set it below what is spent by the Provinces you're handicapping the Provinces if you set it higher you're setting a pointless limit.

It seems the issue is reigning in the Irish rather than building the rest

If it is all done fair and above board then nobody would be handicapped or reigned in. 

We would need transparency across the league. Each team would have to be honest and open to what their earnings are, just like in football, we could either then set a salary cap fair to ALL, or have some sort of fair play rule where each team does not spend beyond their means, but to do this every teams accounts need to be available.

What do you mean as they do in football? If you are referring to the FFP then that's not viable in these cases as winnings from the Provinces/Scottish regions are paid to the IRFU and SRU, wages are fully/partly paid through unions and in the case of the provinces they are given money by the IRFU to look after the local game so have an added expense to look after. The FFP is also a joke and regularly bypassed and overlooked.

Your also assuming that the league doesn't have access to accounts as it is

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by LordDowlais on Tue 22 Mar 2016, 3:38 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:If no one was handicapped what is the point of a cap?


To stop clubs spending beyond their means. OK

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 22 Mar 2016, 3:42 pm

So they wouldn't be able to spend the money they would want to and hence would be handicapped.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by LordDowlais on Tue 22 Mar 2016, 3:43 pm

marty2086 wrote:What do you mean as they do in football? If you are referring to the FFP then that's not viable in these cases as winnings from the Provinces/Scottish regions are paid to the IRFU and SRU, wages are fully/partly paid through unions and in the case of the provinces they are given money by the IRFU to look after the local game so have an added expense to look after. The FFP is also a joke and regularly bypassed and overlooked.

You can still see what a team is generating compared to what it is spending. The wages of the team should not usurp the earnings of the team, no matter how much "extra" it gets from sugar daddies and unions.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by Munchkin on Tue 22 Mar 2016, 3:45 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:What do you mean as they do in football? If you are referring to the FFP then that's not viable in these cases as winnings from the Provinces/Scottish regions are paid to the IRFU and SRU, wages are fully/partly paid through unions and in the case of the provinces they are given money by the IRFU to look after the local game so have an added expense to look after. The FFP is also a joke and regularly bypassed and overlooked.

You can still see what a team is generating compared to what it is spending. The wages of the team should not usurp the earnings of the team, no matter how much "extra" it gets from sugar daddies and unions.

So this isn't really a Union v Private club thing, but a spending cap across the board?

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by LordDowlais on Tue 22 Mar 2016, 3:46 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:So they wouldn't be able to spend the money they would want to and hence would be handicapped.

No, they would not be able to spend what they are not earning themselves. If one team is earning £100 a week, they should not be able to spend £200 a week on wages. If they wanted to spend more on wages they would have to increase the income of the club/team/province. 

They would only be handicapping themselves by not working harder to earn more.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by marty2086 on Tue 22 Mar 2016, 3:46 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:What do you mean as they do in football? If you are referring to the FFP then that's not viable in these cases as winnings from the Provinces/Scottish regions are paid to the IRFU and SRU, wages are fully/partly paid through unions and in the case of the provinces they are given money by the IRFU to look after the local game so have an added expense to look after. The FFP is also a joke and regularly bypassed and overlooked.

You can still see what a team is generating compared to what it is spending. The wages of the team should not usurp the earnings of the team, no matter how much "extra" it gets from sugar daddies and unions.

Why shouldn't it though? All businesses are entitled to raise capital by their own means why are sporting institutions treated differently?

Man City are under the FFP regulations, they lease their stadium from the council yet get the naming rights money on it which is paid for by their owner just like their kit sponsorship so that's all fair Im sure

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by LordDowlais on Tue 22 Mar 2016, 3:48 pm

Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:What do you mean as they do in football? If you are referring to the FFP then that's not viable in these cases as winnings from the Provinces/Scottish regions are paid to the IRFU and SRU, wages are fully/partly paid through unions and in the case of the provinces they are given money by the IRFU to look after the local game so have an added expense to look after. The FFP is also a joke and regularly bypassed and overlooked.

You can still see what a team is generating compared to what it is spending. The wages of the team should not usurp the earnings of the team, no matter how much "extra" it gets from sugar daddies and unions.

So this isn't really a Union v Private club thing, but a spending cap across the board?


In part yes. It is why union run teams have an unfair advantage over privately owned teams. Union run teams are not as transparent as private teams, union run teams are part of a whole, private teams are out there on their own.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 22 Mar 2016, 3:49 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:So they wouldn't be able to spend the money they would want to and hence would be handicapped.

No, they would not be able to spend what they are not earning themselves. If one team is earning £100 a week, they should not be able to spend £200 a week on wages. If they wanted to spend more on wages they would have to increase the income of the club/team/province. 

They would only be handicapping themselves by not working harder to earn more.

Well no one would agree to that for one. Even if they did they wouldn't adhere to it. Or you'd just get people working aorund it. The main difference is all players would have to expect a wage cut across 99% of teams. And teams would obviously be looking for further funding as presumably you'd have to stop union payments?

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by LordDowlais on Tue 22 Mar 2016, 3:52 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:presumably you'd have to stop union payments?

Not if you can prove the union are paying for a service, i.e the use of a teams player.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by Munchkin on Tue 22 Mar 2016, 3:53 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:What do you mean as they do in football? If you are referring to the FFP then that's not viable in these cases as winnings from the Provinces/Scottish regions are paid to the IRFU and SRU, wages are fully/partly paid through unions and in the case of the provinces they are given money by the IRFU to look after the local game so have an added expense to look after. The FFP is also a joke and regularly bypassed and overlooked.

You can still see what a team is generating compared to what it is spending. The wages of the team should not usurp the earnings of the team, no matter how much "extra" it gets from sugar daddies and unions.

So this isn't really a Union v Private club thing, but a spending cap across the board?


In part yes. It is why union run teams have an unfair advantage over privately owned teams. Union run teams are not as transparent as private teams, union run teams are part of a whole, private teams are out there on their own.

That doesn't add up when you look at the evidence. Would you honestly say that Sarries or Toulon are at a disadvantage? Would you honestly say that Sarries or Bath have been transparent? How can you say they are out there on their own when some have multiple wealthy investors? People with more money than the IRFU....

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 22 Mar 2016, 3:56 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:presumably you'd have to stop union payments?

Not if you can prove the union are paying for a service, i.e the use of a teams player.

So the Irish union could say that and pay a large lump sum, the RFU would have to reword their agreement possibly to say chosen players which may end up paying the likes of Saracens more than say London Irish so they need less private cash.

Presumably the Welsh would have to show that the money paid to them for their players use wasn't going directly to those players?

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by marty2086 on Tue 22 Mar 2016, 4:50 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:What do you mean as they do in football? If you are referring to the FFP then that's not viable in these cases as winnings from the Provinces/Scottish regions are paid to the IRFU and SRU, wages are fully/partly paid through unions and in the case of the provinces they are given money by the IRFU to look after the local game so have an added expense to look after. The FFP is also a joke and regularly bypassed and overlooked.

You can still see what a team is generating compared to what it is spending. The wages of the team should not usurp the earnings of the team, no matter how much "extra" it gets from sugar daddies and unions.

So this isn't really a Union v Private club thing, but a spending cap across the board?


In part yes. It is why union run teams have an unfair advantage over privately owned teams. Union run teams are not as transparent as private teams, union run teams are part of a whole, private teams are out there on their own.

LD, you are talking like club ownerships are as simple as they have one guy running the show when its a lot more complex than that. You have different companies running different parts of the operations within a club in some cases, sometimes these are run from another company and in some cases that again is owned by another company.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by profitius on Tue 22 Mar 2016, 7:37 pm

Its is a nonsense discussion. The wealthy owners are looking to make a profit which will go out of the game while anything the unions make will go back into the game.


Also, if this idea did become reality, the IRFU would be delighted because they could reduce funding and invest it in other things like stadiums.


Another thing they could do would be to agree a salary cap. That would do wonders for the world game although I'm not sure the Toulon owner would like that.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by doctor_grey on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 5:37 am

Some form of Euro mega-league is really a non-starter.  There is nothing in it for the existing leagues and for the teams which will lose out.  We already have the higher tier Euro competition which is about all the calendar can handle.  And many of the teams which do not qualify for the higher tier Euro Rugby generate most of their revenue from their existing club competitions.  They would certainly not be supportive.  In fact the only Euro mega league which would work is one which takes into consideration virtually all of the top level professional teams, currently 38 teams.  

The question of balancing the compensation per player under a salary cap is a good one.  Clearly, the only way to do this is to define it as the total compensation per player whether from club plus union, or just from union for union owned teams.  Algorithms already exist to adjust numbers for different currencies in other sports leagues.   And again, total transparency is critical.  Without it, any pretense of an equal playing field is nonsense and another likely reason this concept is dead on arrival.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 8:14 am

doctor_grey wrote: And again, total transparency is critical.  Without it, any pretense of an equal playing field is nonsense and another likely reason this concept is dead on arrival.

Yes, this is vital, in any competition if we are going to have meritocracy.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by carpet baboon on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 8:42 am

LordDowlais wrote:
doctor_grey wrote: And again, total transparency is critical.  Without it, any pretense of an equal playing field is nonsense and another likely reason this concept is dead on arrival.

Yes, this is vital, in any competition if we are going to have meritocracy.

Unfortunately all sides seem unwilling on this part

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by ScarletSpiderman on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 8:47 am

Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Not disagreeing with much of that Notch, except the living within your means bit. It's not a level playing field, rich owners spend more on their clubs than what the clubs can earn, and the IRFU/SRU/IRFU spend more on the provinces/clubs than what they can earn. 

If each club/province/region was made to only operate within their means, then that would be a level playing field.

But surely you see that it's the rich owners spending so much that causes this imbalance? Clubs in England and France aren't getting in debt because of anything the IRFU are doing. They are getting in debt because of the Toulons and the Sarries of the rugby world. The Regions are not getting in debt because of the IRFU. If they are getting in debt, it is because they are trying to compete with the markets forces being driven by the like of Toulon.

You want the Regions to be on equal terms, financially, with the Provinces. Rather than the Regions raising their game to compete with the English and French clubs, you want the IRFU to invest less in the Provinces, to become less competitive in Europe, and to fall out of touch with our competition in Europe. You see how that will end?

The regions are not realistically trying to compete with the likes of Toulon, but we are trying to compete with the likes of Connacht and Leinster. We are not realistically trying to sign current all blacks, but we are trying to get hold of similar players to those that Connacht and Leinster sign(maybe not even as good as Leinster sign) who have shown they are up to SuperRugby standards, but not quite up to Aus/SA/NZ international standards (or not likely to be regulars). At the moment we are unable to compete with the provinces for these type of signing and are at the moment starting to admit that we are better off trawling the ITM/Currie Cup for players that are on the edge of become SuperRugby squad members instead. So I would say that it was trying to compete with the spending power of the Irish that has been a factor in the regions getting into poop street financially (long with people like Phil Davies not understanding players actual worth etc).

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by marty2086 on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 9:21 am

carpet baboon wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
doctor_grey wrote: And again, total transparency is critical.  Without it, any pretense of an equal playing field is nonsense and another likely reason this concept is dead on arrival.

Yes, this is vital, in any competition if we are going to have meritocracy.

Unfortunately all sides seem unwilling on this part

Who's unwilling?

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by Munchkin on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 9:55 am

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Not disagreeing with much of that Notch, except the living within your means bit. It's not a level playing field, rich owners spend more on their clubs than what the clubs can earn, and the IRFU/SRU/IRFU spend more on the provinces/clubs than what they can earn. 

If each club/province/region was made to only operate within their means, then that would be a level playing field.

But surely you see that it's the rich owners spending so much that causes this imbalance? Clubs in England and France aren't getting in debt because of anything the IRFU are doing. They are getting in debt because of the Toulons and the Sarries of the rugby world. The Regions are not getting in debt because of the IRFU. If they are getting in debt, it is because they are trying to compete with the markets forces being driven by the like of Toulon.

You want the Regions to be on equal terms, financially, with the Provinces. Rather than the Regions raising their game to compete with the English and French clubs, you want the IRFU to invest less in the Provinces, to become less competitive in Europe, and to fall out of touch with our competition in Europe. You see how that will end?

The regions are not realistically trying to compete with the likes of Toulon, but we are trying to compete with the likes of Connacht and Leinster.  We are not realistically trying to sign current all blacks, but we are trying to get hold of similar players to those that Connacht and Leinster  sign(maybe not even as good as Leinster sign) who have shown they are up to SuperRugby standards, but not quite up to Aus/SA/NZ international standards (or not likely to be regulars).  At the moment we are unable to compete with the provinces for these type of signing and are at the moment starting to admit that we are better off trawling the ITM/Currie Cup for players that are on the edge of become SuperRugby squad members instead.  So I would say that it was trying to compete with the spending power of the Irish that has been a factor in the regions getting into poop street financially (long with people like Phil Davies not understanding players actual worth etc).

Maybe I should have worded it differently. What I mean is that the Regions are competing against the rising wage levels being driven up by he likes of Toulon. We all are. Because of the rising wage levels the Regions will be paying more for whoever they sign, just as Ulster will pay more for whoever they sign. The Provinces are not trying to compete with the big money clubs like Toulon. By this I mean not spending huge sums to fill the squad with star players. We can't, and even if we had the money we couldn't. We compete to keep our own players from moving to the big money clubs, and for next season we have added a couple of big signings. I'm delighted that we have because it gives us at least a chance of getting out of our Euro group.

So, the Regions are not competing against the Provinces, as it isn't the Provinces driving up wage levels.

The Provinces don't have a big spending budget. The Regions aren't that far off our spending budget. From what I understand, the Regions are set to increase their cap, so maybe things will change on that front.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by carpet baboon on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 9:59 am

marty2086 wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
doctor_grey wrote: And again, total transparency is critical.  Without it, any pretense of an equal playing field is nonsense and another likely reason this concept is dead on arrival.

Yes, this is vital, in any competition if we are going to have meritocracy.

Unfortunately all sides seem unwilling on this part

Who's unwilling?

Honestly I think all parties would be against compete transparency in some way, or even finding a acceptable middle ground.
To many people to please

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 10:10 am

Munchkin wrote:as it isn't the Provinces driving up wage levels

Laugh

Righto.

How much are Ulster paying the likes of Ruan Pienaar ? How much is Charles Piutau going to be on ?

The Irish Provinces have been paying NIQ players a fortune for years.

How much are all the centrally contracted players on ? 

To blame everything on the rich French clubs is a bit much considering what the Irish provinces have been paying over the years. How much did Leinster pay Rocky Elsom for his stint ?

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 10:28 am

General question LD, why don't you feel the WRU additional funding to secure players for the Welsh teams is fair?

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 10:33 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:General question LD, why don't you feel the WRU additional funding to secure players for the Welsh teams is fair?


I have never said it was/was not fair. What an odd question.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 10:34 am

Sorry should have said why do you find it fair!

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 10:39 am

Well, if you are talking about the dual contracts, then yes I do think it is fair, the regions put a lot of hard work in developing players, they spend a lot of time and money, so if team Wales wants access to them, then yes, team Wales should pay for the service.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by Munchkin on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 10:41 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:as it isn't the Provinces driving up wage levels

Laugh

Righto.

How much are Ulster paying the likes of Ruan Pienaar ? How much is Charles Piutau going to be on ?

The Irish Provinces have been paying NIQ players a fortune for years.

How much are all the centrally contracted players on ? 

To blame everything on the rich French clubs is a bit much considering what the Irish provinces have been paying over the years. How much did Leinster pay Rocky Elsom for his stint ?

I'm not sure I can be any clearer on this but, being the long suffering type, will try any way.

It isn't any of the Provinces driving up wage inflation. We can only sign so many foreign players, and simply don't have the spending power of the big money clubs, like Toulon. It's true we have signed a few star players in our time, with Players such as Pienaar and Afoa. None of the players we signed recently (Herbst, Van der Merwe, Ludik) would have been big signings, but Coetzee and Piutau certainly are. In signing these two players we have to let go of others, because of our NIQ policy, so our best player this season will be moving on - Nick Williams.

Pienaar was offered big money to move to Toulon, but turned it down for less money to stay with Ulster. I can't remember the reported figure. Geoff would be the man for that.

It's the likes of Toulon that are filling their squads with star players, and it's this that's driving wage inflation, which means that Ulster will pay more for whoever they sign, just as the Regions will pay more for whoever they sign, regardless of the standard.

Yes, I do blame it on the big French clubs. Anyone with an ounce of sense can see that it's the big French clubs driving up player wage inflation.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 10:42 am

But that extra money coming from the Union is allowing the Welsh teams to offer more money to those players and secure them to play for themselves isn't it? That extra money wouldn't be provided to Bath for instance to allow them to basically give Faletau that same money; that would come ffrom what they generate themselves? So the Welsh teams there are getting an unfair advantage based on what you said earlier surely?

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by ScarletSpiderman on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 10:43 am

Munchkin wrote:The Provinces don't have a big spending budget. The Regions aren't that far off our spending budget. From what I understand, the Regions are set to increase their cap, so maybe things will change on that front.

To be honest I am not sure that really Toulon are to blame. It is the teams that were big at the start of professionalism that are really responsible for the situation we are in with the wages. After all since then we have all been trying our best to compete with the wages they threw at people, and when it looked like we were getting closer they threw more money at them.

Also in defence of Toulon (and the likes), as much as I am not a fan of their money spending, they are not going to want to spend more than they have to in order to secure a players signature. So they must feel like their wage bills are being inflated by the rest of us trying to sign the same players as they want. It is a vicious circle that is fuelled by all of us, yet we all plead we are the innocent parties that are just trying to remain competitive.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 10:45 am

Munchkin, the provinces have been paying massive wages for years and years. Ever since they were winning European cups on a regular basis. So I would not take the moral high ground over the French if I were you. 

Yes the French are screwing everything up now, by paying stupid money, but I remember Munster offering Howlett a small fortune to play for them a few years ago. 

The Irish provinces are just as guilty as the french teams for doing this, the only difference is, the French have kept spending, whilst the provinces have just kept up.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by ScarletSpiderman on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 10:47 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:But that extra money coming from the Union is allowing the Welsh teams Ospreys to offer more money to those players and secure them to play for themselves isn't it? That extra money wouldn't be provided to Bath anyone else for instance to allow them to basically give Faletau that same money; that would come from what they generate themselves? So the Welsh teams Ospreys there are getting an unfair advantage based on what you said earlier surely?

Just made some adjustments to that statement to make it ring true.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by Munchkin on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 10:48 am

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Munchkin wrote:The Provinces don't have a big spending budget. The Regions aren't that far off our spending budget. From what I understand, the Regions are set to increase their cap, so maybe things will change on that front.

To be honest I am not sure that really Toulon are to blame.  It is the teams that were big at the start of professionalism that are really responsible for the situation we are in with the wages.  After all since then we have all been trying our best to compete with the wages they threw at people, and when it looked like we were getting closer they threw more money at them.

Also in defence of Toulon (and the likes), as much as I am not a fan of their money spending, they are not going to want to spend more than they have to in order to secure a players signature.  So they must feel like their wage bills are being inflated by the rest of us trying to sign the same players as they want.  It is a vicious circle that is fuelled by all of us, yet we all plead we are the innocent parties that are just trying to remain competitive.

What do you base that on? I doubt very much that's true. Yes, it is the likes of Toulon driving wage inflation. That much is obvious. I understand your points. Wage inflation is natural, most of the time, but the huge spike in wage inflation is the result of big money clubs filling their squads with star players.

It isn't about pleading innocence. It's about stating facts.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 10:50 am

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:But that extra money coming from the Union is allowing the Welsh teams Ospreys to offer more money to those players and secure them to play for themselves isn't it? That extra money wouldn't be provided to Bath anyone else for instance to allow them to basically give Faletau that same money; that would come from what they generate themselves? So the Welsh teams Ospreys there are getting an unfair advantage based on what you said earlier surely?

Just made some adjustments to that statement to make it ring true.

Ta.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 10:56 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:But that extra money coming from the Union is allowing the Welsh teams to offer more money to those players and secure them to play for themselves isn't it? That extra money wouldn't be provided to Bath for instance to allow them to basically give Faletau that same money; that would come ffrom what they generate themselves? So the Welsh teams there are getting an unfair advantage based on what you said earlier surely?


I hate it when you try and be all clever to try and trip me up, all the friggin time. Look, the WRU will not have access to Faletau outside the international window because they are not paying for his services, it happens to all our players based outside of Wales, they are made to go back to their clubs on the weekends there is no games, and they cannot meet up early for training camps and the what not.

The players on DC's in Wales, team Wales can get access to those whenever they like, because they are paying for their services via a dual contract, which is fair.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by ScarletSpiderman on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 10:57 am

Munchkin, I get that based on the knowledge that they are run by business people, and whilst they are done as a hobby, it is still money, and business folk are not keen on throwing their money away. If they could sign a world class player for £5 a match, they would.

Also, it does seem that there is a fair bit of pleading innocence going on, and wanting to blame others. We have all caused this situation. Toulon are spending a heap of money now. However they are not the ones who started this whole arms race for the best players, regardless of the price. They are just he latest side that have the means to do so.

The Llanelli RFC have played their part in all of this, we signed Frano Botica for what would have been megabucks, Cardiff RFC (and the Blues), and Newport RFC (and Dragons) spent considerable amounts of cash signing players from the southern hemisphere and from other welsh sides. The dawn of regionalism was marked with a mad rush down south to see who we could bring over with our new found cash. The Irish provinces (mainly Leinster and Munster) played their part when they were the European big boys, they brought over some real quality overseas lads.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 11:00 am

LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:But that extra money coming from the Union is allowing the Welsh teams to offer more money to those players and secure them to play for themselves isn't it? That extra money wouldn't be provided to Bath for instance to allow them to basically give Faletau that same money; that would come ffrom what they generate themselves? So the Welsh teams there are getting an unfair advantage based on what you said earlier surely?


I hate it when you try and be all clever to try and trip me up, all the friggin time. Look, the WRU will not have access to Faletau outside the international window because they are not paying for his services, it happens to all our players based outside of Wales, they are made to go back to their clubs on the weekends there is no games, and they cannot meet up early for training camps and the what not.

The players on DC's in Wales, team Wales can get access to those whenever they like, because they are paying for their services via a dual contract, which is fair.

Aw sorry. Would the DC players be affordable to the Welsh teams without that money? Or would they more likely be playing in France and elsewhere? I feel personally it's likely they be elsewhere than Wales.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by ScarletSpiderman on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 11:03 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:But that extra money coming from the Union is allowing the Welsh teams to offer more money to those players and secure them to play for themselves isn't it? That extra money wouldn't be provided to Bath for instance to allow them to basically give Faletau that same money; that would come ffrom what they generate themselves? So the Welsh teams there are getting an unfair advantage based on what you said earlier surely?


I hate it when you try and be all clever to try and trip me up, all the friggin time. Look, the WRU will not have access to Faletau outside the international window because they are not paying for his services, it happens to all our players based outside of Wales, they are made to go back to their clubs on the weekends there is no games, and they cannot meet up early for training camps and the what not.

The players on DC's in Wales, team Wales can get access to those whenever they like, because they are paying for their services via a dual contract, which is fair.

Aw sorry. Would the DC players be affordable to the Welsh teams without that money? Or would they more likely be playing in France and elsewhere? I feel personally it's likely they be elsewhere than Wales.

That is all debateable. Some would have gone, and some would have stayed. Also if the Gats-law was really used, then would any of them have left? Also does the English play in England to play for England ruling count as unfair, as it stops the players leaving.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 11:04 am

SS, I agree with that 100%. God only knows how much money Cardiff RFC spent on Jonah Lomu, I remember Newport signing players like Gary Teichmann and Percy Montgomery who would not have been cheap. 

We have all been as guilty as the next team over the years. that is why I find munchkin blaming the rich French clubs, well, a bit rich.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 11:06 am

Yes under that Scarlet it would be unfair. Personally not me picking that point but it seems a bit biased to ignore that fact that extra money is provided by a union to players with one of the outcomes being they play for Welsh clubs above English, Frence etc. If someone is saying that the Irish Union shouldn't then please don't ignore that. I'm fine with the various ways but it smacks of wanting an advantage for one set of teams.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by Munchkin on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 11:23 am

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Munchkin, I get that based on the knowledge that they are run by business people, and whilst they are done as a hobby, it is still money, and business folk are not keen on throwing their money away.  If they could sign a world class player for £5 a match, they would.

Also, it does seem that there is a fair bit of pleading innocence going on, and wanting to blame others.  We have all caused this situation.  Toulon are spending a heap of money now.  However they are not the ones who started this whole arms race for the best players, regardless of the price.  They are just he latest side that have the means to do so.  

The Llanelli RFC have played their part in all of this, we signed Frano Botica for what would have been megabucks, Cardiff RFC (and the Blues), and Newport RFC (and Dragons) spent considerable amounts of cash signing players from the southern hemisphere and from other welsh sides.  The dawn of regionalism was marked with a mad rush down south to see who we could bring over with our new found cash.  The Irish provinces (mainly Leinster and Munster) played their part when they were the European big boys, they brought over some real quality overseas lads.

That isn't much of a basis, Scarlets. Yes, it's a hobby to some, but these guys are incredibly competitive, and will pay top dollar for the best, which they do. It's an auction filled with the very rich willing to outbid each other, and outbid for as many players as they can. That's why we have the spike in player wages. Remember, it isn't so much their own money (although that obviously plays a big part for some), but the wealth created by the massive broadcasting deals, and the paying public.

Yes, I get that plenty of clubs have signed top quality. That kind of misses my point though. It isn't signing the big names that created the spike in player wage inflation (there's always been a spread of star players), but the rush to buy up these players, mainly by the big French clubs, and because of the wealth at their disposal.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by marty2086 on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 11:36 am

carpet baboon wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
doctor_grey wrote: And again, total transparency is critical.  Without it, any pretense of an equal playing field is nonsense and another likely reason this concept is dead on arrival.

Yes, this is vital, in any competition if we are going to have meritocracy.

Unfortunately all sides seem unwilling on this part

Who's unwilling?

Honestly I think all parties would be against compete transparency in some way, or even finding a acceptable middle ground.
To many people to please

All parties like who? The Irish provinces issue accounts to their branch members and the IRFU publish their accounts too in their annual report as do the SRU, the Regions publish their accounts too, the Italians Im sure have accounts they have to publish.

All that's needed is a team within the relevant bodies to monitor and investigate the matters, its not like the information has to be published publically beyond what already is.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by ScarletSpiderman on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 11:55 am

Munchkin wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:Munchkin, I get that based on the knowledge that they are run by business people, and whilst they are done as a hobby, it is still money, and business folk are not keen on throwing their money away.  If they could sign a world class player for £5 a match, they would.

Also, it does seem that there is a fair bit of pleading innocence going on, and wanting to blame others.  We have all caused this situation.  Toulon are spending a heap of money now.  However they are not the ones who started this whole arms race for the best players, regardless of the price.  They are just he latest side that have the means to do so.  

The Llanelli RFC have played their part in all of this, we signed Frano Botica for what would have been megabucks, Cardiff RFC (and the Blues), and Newport RFC (and Dragons) spent considerable amounts of cash signing players from the southern hemisphere and from other welsh sides.  The dawn of regionalism was marked with a mad rush down south to see who we could bring over with our new found cash.  The Irish provinces (mainly Leinster and Munster) played their part when they were the European big boys, they brought over some real quality overseas lads.

That isn't much of a basis, Scarlets. Yes, it's a hobby to some, but these guys are incredibly competitive, and will pay top dollar for the best, which they do. It's an auction filled with the very rich willing to outbid each other, and outbid for as many players as they can. That's why we have the spike in player wages. Remember, it isn't so much their own money (although that obviously plays a big part for some), but the wealth created by the massive broadcasting deals, and the paying public.

Yes, I get that plenty of clubs have signed top quality. That kind of misses my point though. It isn't signing the big names that created the spike in player wage inflation (there's always been a spread of star players), but the rush to buy up these players, mainly by the big French clubs, and because of the wealth at their disposal.

Ok lets flip this back to you (as the good old days always went), what do you have to support your believe that the backers of clubs are so careless with their money that they are willing to spend more than is required to get a player? Have you seen anything where a player has said 'heck I would have gone to Toulon for £300k a year, but they made me take a £750k deal', because to be honest that just seems beyond the realms of reality to me, hobby or not.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by Munchkin on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 12:08 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:Munchkin, I get that based on the knowledge that they are run by business people, and whilst they are done as a hobby, it is still money, and business folk are not keen on throwing their money away.  If they could sign a world class player for £5 a match, they would.

Also, it does seem that there is a fair bit of pleading innocence going on, and wanting to blame others.  We have all caused this situation.  Toulon are spending a heap of money now.  However they are not the ones who started this whole arms race for the best players, regardless of the price.  They are just he latest side that have the means to do so.  

The Llanelli RFC have played their part in all of this, we signed Frano Botica for what would have been megabucks, Cardiff RFC (and the Blues), and Newport RFC (and Dragons) spent considerable amounts of cash signing players from the southern hemisphere and from other welsh sides.  The dawn of regionalism was marked with a mad rush down south to see who we could bring over with our new found cash.  The Irish provinces (mainly Leinster and Munster) played their part when they were the European big boys, they brought over some real quality overseas lads.

That isn't much of a basis, Scarlets. Yes, it's a hobby to some, but these guys are incredibly competitive, and will pay top dollar for the best, which they do. It's an auction filled with the very rich willing to outbid each other, and outbid for as many players as they can. That's why we have the spike in player wages. Remember, it isn't so much their own money (although that obviously plays a big part for some), but the wealth created by the massive broadcasting deals, and the paying public.

Yes, I get that plenty of clubs have signed top quality. That kind of misses my point though. It isn't signing the big names that created the spike in player wage inflation (there's always been a spread of star players), but the rush to buy up these players, mainly by the big French clubs, and because of the wealth at their disposal.

Ok lets flip this back to you (as the good old days always went), what do you have to support your believe that the backers of clubs are so careless with their money that they are willing to spend more than is required to get a player?  Have you seen anything where a player has said 'heck I would have gone to Toulon for £300k a year, but they made me take a £750k deal', because to be honest that just seems beyond the realms of reality to me, hobby or not.

The evidence, and the reality, is there for all to see. Toulon, and other wealthy clubs, are outbidding clubs for the players they are signing. That's a fact. That's how it works, and that's why the Regions have lost some of their top players to France, and England. And that's why NZ and SA are losing players from S15/18 That's all you need to know. There is a bidding process involving clubs and players agents, and players will go with the highest bidder, in most cases.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by bumble on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 12:12 pm

Munchkin wrote:
The evidence, and the reality, is there for all to see. Toulon, and other wealthy clubs, are outbidding clubs for the players they are signing. That's a fact. That's how it works, and that's why the Regions have lost some of their top players to France, and England. And that's why NZ and SA are losing players from S15/18 That's all you need to know. There is a bidding process involving clubs and players agents, and players will go with the highest bidder, in most cases.

I may be missing something here, but what's the problem with this?

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by Munchkin on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 12:15 pm

bumble wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
The evidence, and the reality, is there for all to see. Toulon, and other wealthy clubs, are outbidding clubs for the players they are signing. That's a fact. That's how it works, and that's why the Regions have lost some of their top players to France, and England. And that's why NZ and SA are losing players from S15/18 That's all you need to know. There is a bidding process involving clubs and players agents, and players will go with the highest bidder, in most cases.

I may be missing something here, but what's the problem with this?

There isn't a problem with that. The argument is that the rush for top players, mostly by wealthy French clubs, caused a spike in player wage inflation, which is a problem.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

Post by ScarletSpiderman on Wed 23 Mar 2016, 12:20 pm

Munchkin wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:Munchkin, I get that based on the knowledge that they are run by business people, and whilst they are done as a hobby, it is still money, and business folk are not keen on throwing their money away.  If they could sign a world class player for £5 a match, they would.

Also, it does seem that there is a fair bit of pleading innocence going on, and wanting to blame others.  We have all caused this situation.  Toulon are spending a heap of money now.  However they are not the ones who started this whole arms race for the best players, regardless of the price.  They are just he latest side that have the means to do so.  

The Llanelli RFC have played their part in all of this, we signed Frano Botica for what would have been megabucks, Cardiff RFC (and the Blues), and Newport RFC (and Dragons) spent considerable amounts of cash signing players from the southern hemisphere and from other welsh sides.  The dawn of regionalism was marked with a mad rush down south to see who we could bring over with our new found cash.  The Irish provinces (mainly Leinster and Munster) played their part when they were the European big boys, they brought over some real quality overseas lads.

That isn't much of a basis, Scarlets. Yes, it's a hobby to some, but these guys are incredibly competitive, and will pay top dollar for the best, which they do. It's an auction filled with the very rich willing to outbid each other, and outbid for as many players as they can. That's why we have the spike in player wages. Remember, it isn't so much their own money (although that obviously plays a big part for some), but the wealth created by the massive broadcasting deals, and the paying public.

Yes, I get that plenty of clubs have signed top quality. That kind of misses my point though. It isn't signing the big names that created the spike in player wage inflation (there's always been a spread of star players), but the rush to buy up these players, mainly by the big French clubs, and because of the wealth at their disposal.

Ok lets flip this back to you (as the good old days always went), what do you have to support your believe that the backers of clubs are so careless with their money that they are willing to spend more than is required to get a player?  Have you seen anything where a player has said 'heck I would have gone to Toulon for £300k a year, but they made me take a £750k deal', because to be honest that just seems beyond the realms of reality to me, hobby or not.

The evidence, and the reality, is there for all to see. Toulon, and other wealthy clubs, are outbidding clubs for the players they are signing. That's a fact. That's how it works, and that's why the Regions have lost some of their top players to France, and England. And that's why NZ and SA are losing players from S15/18 That's all you need to know. There is a bidding process involving clubs and players agents, and players will go with the highest bidder, in most cases.

Nobody said they were not outbidding people. I said that they are spending as much as is required to secure the player, and that they are not spending more than is actually required, but now you are saying that it is a case of them paying so much because they need to. Please try and stay on track with your own argument boss, it makes things so much easier for the rest of us if you do.

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Re: Toulon want to scrap the Champions Cup .....

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