European rugby, the interest just isn't there

First topic message reminder :

I know I will get a bashing off some quarters on here, but sorry it has to be said, looking at the crowds for the two semi-finals on the weekend, it would seem the interest is not there. The aggregate figure for the two games was a paltry 38,968 people, there was more people than that for the Cardiff Blues V Leicester semi final a few years ago 44,212 turned up that day.

This proves that the greedy club owners have ruined a once prestigious competition, admired by thousands and getting better year on year. Where are all these new massive sponsorship deals ? Where is all this money we are supposed to be swimming in ? 

All I saw on the weekend was empty seats, the future of the European club competition for me looks bleak, dwindling crowds, the same teams ALL the time in the knockout stages, lack of interest, the French already consider their own league a priority, for me something drastic needs to be done as it would seem the writing is on the wall for one of our favourite club competitions, it's sad, as it's been well and truly ruined by the greedy club owners.

Take a read of some of these, you might find them interesting:-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2016/04/25/empty-seats-as-saracens-and-racing-92-won-through-must-be-a-wake/
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/much-better-europe-champions-cup-11238143

It's simple Lord

Step 1. Find a rather magical sports competition which has seen massive growth in popularity for years.
Step 2. Pick the nations who are most enthusiastic and engaged with it and reduce their numbers and relative finances.
Step 3. Wait for step 2 to ensure the tournament is dominated by the two nations that priorities it the least, including one that barely cares at all.
Step 5. Profits!

What's step 4 again?

If someone can remember that then we might figure out the quite damning drops in attendances, viewing figures and general enthusiasm for this competition. What the hell was step 4 again?

Munchkin wrote:The length of the thread is a fact

Yes but it keeps changing....

Kind of like I never know my age it keeps changing every day

Step 4. Let ERC fupp the coverage by signing a TV contract which forces split coverage.

If there is a B-r-e-x-I-t????

Will PRL have to leave the competition - being as they'll no longer be Europeans?

Instantly we'll have found a spy in our midst. "Out with you, Anti Juncker scum!!!"

Bet Connacht are pleased with the new format...

It's not an EU competition

It's a European competition

Leaving the EU doesn't mean sailing the island across the Atlantic...

Nah. It would have been easier just waiting for Ulster to win the thing next season. They ain't fools, them lads.

quinsforever wrote:Bet Connacht are pleased with the new format...

Why?

They would qualify this season under old format??

quinsforever wrote:It's not an EU competition

It's a European competition

Leaving the EU doesn't mean sailing the island across the Atlantic...

Oh right.

Wrting furiously into my little 606 book of tricks: "stupid throw-away European 'joke' went down like a sack of spuds. Must try harder Fly, you dumb bumhole"

No they wouldn't qualify this season under the old format

Sorry fly, but EU exit is no laughing matter...

quinsforever wrote:No they wouldn't qualify this season under the old format

Why not?

Which means they just went ahead and qualified the new way...and it was such a drag. The lads are lazy as feck and hate getting out of bed before 3 in the afternoon

Needed to either win challenge cup or have a province win champs cup

quinsforever wrote:Sorry fly, but EU exit is no laughing matter...

Well that makes two of us that think the EU is no laughing matter. The exit bit? Well, that's your topic to deal with.

But you might say Trump getting into office is considered no laughing matter for the entire World, depending on your opinion of him and his politics. But I still have belly laughs listening to that guy. What have any of us really except some humour to try lightening the serious topics?

quinsforever wrote:Needed to either win challenge cup or have a province win champs cup

No top 3 province's got entered in into the old Hino cup

quinsforever wrote:It's not an EU competition

It's a European competition

Leaving the EU doesn't mean sailing the island across the Atlantic...

It would be nice if someone would sail the Island across the Atlantic. Would save me money flying home.

doctor_grey wrote:

quinsforever wrote:It's not an EU competition

It's a European competition

Leaving the EU doesn't mean sailing the island across the Atlantic...

It would be nice if someone would sail the Island across the Atlantic.  Would save me money flying home.  

Would you please put a towline on us as you're passing there, doc? And thanks in advance. I'll pay you when I see you.

And would connachts funding from IRFU have been doubled without the ERC changes? Genuine qn

quinsforever wrote:No they wouldn't qualify this season under the old format

They would.  Top three ranking Irish teams.  

Maybe you didn't know how old format worked in H Cup.  Like the Premiership didn't have top 6 qualification in old format.

quinsforever wrote:And would connachts funding from IRFU have been doubled without the ERC changes? Genuine qn

Who says it was doubled with the ERC changes?

Look at Connacht's finishing spot in last three seasons.

quinsforever wrote:And would connachts funding from IRFU have been doubled without the ERC changes? Genuine qn

Is it not relative? Did Welsh and Scottish and Italian rugby get more money? Or are we saying that's why Connacht rose on their own merits as Welsh sides sank?
The amount of money only matters when one group gets far more than another... so how much money have BT injected into AP?

SecretFly wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

quinsforever wrote:It's not an EU competition

It's a European competition

Leaving the EU doesn't mean sailing the island across the Atlantic...

It would be nice if someone would sail the Island across the Atlantic.  Would save me money flying home.  

Would you please put a towline on us as you're passing there, doc?  And thanks in advance.  I'll pay you when I see you.

Keep your money mate. Let's move our islands across the Atlantic, tie 'em up off New York City, and I will see you at Smith & Wollensky's for a proper steak dinner.

I was told Connacht got half the IRFU funding of the other three until last year or the year before. Is that not true?

doctor_grey wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

quinsforever wrote:It's not an EU competition

It's a European competition

Leaving the EU doesn't mean sailing the island across the Atlantic...

It would be nice if someone would sail the Island across the Atlantic.  Would save me money flying home.  

Would you please put a towline on us as you're passing there, doc?  And thanks in advance.  I'll pay you when I see you.

Keep your money mate.  Let's move our islands across the Atlantic, tie 'em up off New York City, and I will see you at Smith & Wollensky's for a proper steak dinner.  

I'm not fooling, the way things are heating up here in grand old EU, I'd jump at the chance.

The United States of Mid-Atlantic Twang? - USA, Britain, Ireland...could we take Spain and Italy too? Rowdy feckers at times but I have an affinity to their hot blooded spirit.

The rest? Well they're welcome to it. Bon Voyage Junckers!

quinsforever wrote:I was told Connacht got half the IRFU funding of the other three until last year or the year before. Is that not true?

They got another €1m in funding in 2014, following a bout of poaching from other provinces. That didn't bring them onto par with other provinces. 

The IRFU have committed to giving all the provinces additional funding for next season due to a better surplus last financial year.  

Leaving all that aside, commiserations on the loss this evening.

quinsforever wrote:I was told Connacht got half the IRFU funding of the other three until last year or the year before. Is that not true?

That's only because Munster have been downgraded to busking on Limerick streets. There's extra cash for the teams that try. There's always a carrot

Harlequins lost? Oh sorry about that, Quins. Maybe in light of that things were being a touch insensitive and flippant here. Forgot about the game.

It's ironic that the country that the English and French teams wanted to have less representation in the competition will actually have more representation next year.

SecretFly wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

quinsforever wrote:It's not an EU competition

It's a European competition

Leaving the EU doesn't mean sailing the island across the Atlantic...

It would be nice if someone would sail the Island across the Atlantic.  Would save me money flying home.  

Would you please put a towline on us as you're passing there, doc?  And thanks in advance.  I'll pay you when I see you.

Keep your money mate.  Let's move our islands across the Atlantic, tie 'em up off New York City, and I will see you at Smith & Wollensky's for a proper steak dinner.  

I'm not fooling, the way things are heating up here in grand old EU, I'd jump at the chance.

The United States of Mid-Atlantic Twang? - USA, Britain, Ireland...could we take Spain and Italy too?  Rowdy feckers at times but I have an affinity to their hot blooded spirit.

The rest?  Well they're welcome to it.  Bon Voyage Junckers!

You are on to something. How about we merge Ireland, UK and America, but set Texas free (nothing good comes from there anyway). Spain and Italy have to sty put because they have too much debt. The benefits are huge: Better weather for Ireland and Britain, a huge area to travel with no passports, better beer for Americans, and Rugby all over. Knowing Americans ability to muck about with food: McHaggis

David-Douglas wrote:It's ironic that the country that the English and French teams wanted to have less representation in the competition will actually have more representation next year.

The only country which might fit that description is Italy, and they won't have more representation next year. If, instead, you mean Ireland, then I can't see that myself. I think they'll be delighted the Irish teams are in.

David-Douglas wrote:Does anyone on here know how many tickets have been sold for the finals?

Are there any freebies like last year?

Well,last nights final was only half sold looking at the empty seats in the stadium. I wonder how today's game will look.

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote:And would connachts funding from IRFU have been doubled without the ERC changes? Genuine qn

Is it not relative?  Did Welsh and Scottish and Italian rugby get more money?  Or are we saying that's why Connacht rose on their own merits as Welsh sides sank?
The amount of money only matters when one group gets far more than another...  so how much money have BT injected into AP?

The scots and Italians got a guarantee that they would get no less money under the new format. As the new format has a much smaller income this resulted in the English / frenchclubs getting LESS money ( not sure if the welsh / irish got the same guarantee)

Interesting article in today's Irish Times with an interview with Irish rugby agent, and ex-player, Niall Woods.  

He sees more players likely to leave Ireland (Marty Moore is a client) and "it's hard to see how the provinces are going to compete in Europe".  "You'd have to say private investment is the only way they're going to be able to. Leinster have started it, to a certain degree, with the likes of Heaslip, O'Brien and Sexton and, in effect, extra sponsorship. Or else the Union loosen their control like New Zealand union did, and permit part ownership, and give 20 per cent of a franchise to a private investor. I can't see the IRFU handing over any level of control, but that's the risk if you want to compete. It may get to the stage in four or five years where they might not have an option."

Tbh heaslip and sexton have struggled since o'briens involvement.

Maybe pure coincidence.

Maybe they are just paid too much....over 750k euros each for 12 pro12 games? And their special treatment puts a bit of distance between them and their squads?

How else to explain sextons diving, faking, etc?

Players are special not because of what they get paid, but what they do all day every day on the pitch...

Sextons diving is because he is targetted for late hits every game all game - so he is looking for protection and pens from the ref. Its crass -- but I understand why he does it. He must be one of the most fouled players in rugby

Pot Hale wrote:Interesting article in today's Irish Times with an interview with Irish rugby agent, and ex-player, Niall Woods.

Thanks for that. I just think he's pointing out an inevitable consequence of the rather ham-fisted way our sport has managed the route to professionalism.

I know SecretFly and Sin é have both taken me to task earlier in this thread but I don't think we see rugby too differently. Certainly,we have conflicting opinions about how the whole European saga worked out but, for me, that's more about our understanding of the chronology of events rather than our general philosophy.

I love what the IRFU and the provinces have dome to engage supporters and develop players. I wish it was a workable model for the rest of the rugby world, but it isn't.

I don't love the role of club owners in England and France but I always find it peculiar when these individuals are called greedy, money-loving leeches. In international sport, there are many people who have made fortunes by buying and selling sports franchises but I can't think of anyone who has got rich by buying a professional rugby team.

We know, however, that there is more money in the game, so who is getting rich?

Players are certainly getting paid more, and some are quite wealthy by the standards of the average joe, but not many are at the top of the sporting earning tree.

Coaches, trainers, physios etc are all earning. The best-paid have little job security but the sums at the top level can give a degree of comfort.

Agents got nothing out of rugby before and now are very prominent, so they must count as a major beneficiary. I'm surprised they haven't become more of a target of criticism for people who prefer rugby the old way.

Unions aren't doing too badly of course but, because they are often paying away to the other three groups (depending on the set-up) it's hard to see anyone banking real dough, even the RFU.

And this is the situation we face: lots more money in rugby but no-one making out like a bandit beyond a few star names.

When a straw man I am just inventing says "Why can't we have the Lions, the World Cup, Six Nations, Baa-Baas, Rugby Championship, real tours, competitive leagues, and cross-border competitions", then my response is always this:

It was easy to do in an amateur era when people volunteered labour. Even then, economics broke our sport in two when League wanted clarity and money, and Union continue to fudge the issue for years afterwards. Once you pay players, you have to pay everyone else in the ecosystem.

Here's the problem: the popularity of our sport is far too dependent on success of individual teams.

People play basketball around Britain because they are good at it and enjoy it, not because they think they'll win an Olympic medal. Swansea City drew near capacity crowds all season despite being a mid-table team. The Barmy Army earned their name for travelling to support a team facing certain defeat.

A successful team sport draws people who love success but love the game more.

We need more of the kind of commitment shown by our sport's most passionate fans. The only question I feel we need to address is how to get it across all elite levels of the sport.

It's ridiculous that Australia and NZ are short of funds. When I think of that problem, the European competition pales into insignificance.  I don't know that a global season is the answer but I suspect the answer to a lot of the arguments we have here will come from decisions taken at the highest levels.

Wilkins was targeted more

As is carter

Can't excuse sextons whining, appealing and diving. He's a great player. But nobody will remember him fondly for his fairness.

Its no excuse at all - but its why he does it. Wilko never got the treatment Sexton does - 'cos wilko just retreated deeper and deeper to buy time. Sexton does not.

Rugby Fan wrote:

David-Douglas wrote:It's ironic that the country that the English and French teams wanted to have less representation in the competition will actually have more representation next year.

The only country which might fit that description is Italy, and they won't have more representation next year. If, instead, you mean Ireland, then I can't see that myself. I think they'll be delighted the Irish teams are in.

If the English and French clubs wanted Ireland to have more representation they wouldn't have rigged the tournament so that Ireland only had one automatic place compared to England and Frances 6 automatic places each. Sure, they probably want one or two Irish teams in there to keep up the pretence that it's a European competition as opposed to a Franglo Cup with a few invited guests from the other countries. Plus they need the Irish to fill the stadiums and make it look good for the TV and the many high profile sponsors that have come on board. Oh, hang on........

David-Douglas wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

David-Douglas wrote:It's ironic that the country that the English and French teams wanted to have less representation in the competition will actually have more representation next year.

The only country which might fit that description is Italy, and they won't have more representation next year. If, instead, you mean Ireland, then I can't see that myself. I think they'll be delighted the Irish teams are in.

If the English and French clubs wanted Ireland to have more representation they wouldn't have rigged the tournament so that Ireland only had one automatic place compared to England and Frances 6 automatic places each. Sure, they probably want one or two Irish teams in there to keep up the pretence that it's a European competition as opposed to a Franglo Cup with a few invited guests from the other countries. Plus they need the Irish to fill the stadiums and make it look good for the TV and the many high profile sponsors that have come on board. Oh, hang on........

You are comparing apples to oranges and coming up with something that excuses the urine poor performances of the pro 12 teams this season.

It's a league based cup, not a international one. Your get a certain amount of places from each of the leagues, simple.

Congrats to the PRL for ruining European club rugby.

quinsforever wrote:Wilkins was targeted more

As is carter

Can't excuse sextons whining, appealing and diving. He's a great player. But nobody will remember him fondly for his fairness.

You blydi loved Sexton when he was at Racing!

GunsGerms wrote:Congrats to the PRL for ruining European club rugby.

#irisheyesarecrying

nathan wrote:

David-Douglas wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

David-Douglas wrote:It's ironic that the country that the English and French teams wanted to have less representation in the competition will actually have more representation next year.

The only country which might fit that description is Italy, and they won't have more representation next year. If, instead, you mean Ireland, then I can't see that myself. I think they'll be delighted the Irish teams are in.

If the English and French clubs wanted Ireland to have more representation they wouldn't have rigged the tournament so that Ireland only had one automatic place compared to England and Frances 6 automatic places each. Sure, they probably want one or two Irish teams in there to keep up the pretence that it's a European competition as opposed to a Franglo Cup with a few invited guests from the other countries. Plus they need the Irish to fill the stadiums and make it look good for the TV and the many high profile sponsors that have come on board. Oh, hang on........

You are comparing apples to oranges and coming up with something that excuses the urine poor performances of the pro 12 teams this season.

It's a league based cup, not a international one. Your get a certain amount of places from each of the leagues, simple.

Pure bollox. Its a cup arranged between the unions. One that the English clubs have engineered to make it more likely they will win. Its ruined the cup as all of us outside england can see. Yes the english clubs had the power given to them in part by their spineless union. Might is right is the mantra of the bully

TJ wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote:And would connachts funding from IRFU have been doubled without the ERC changes? Genuine qn

Is it not relative?  Did Welsh and Scottish and Italian rugby get more money?  Or are we saying that's why Connacht rose on their own merits as Welsh sides sank?
The amount of money only matters when one group gets far more than another...  so how much money have BT injected into AP?

The scots and Italians got a guarantee that they would get no less money under the new format.  As the new format has a much smaller income this resulted in the English / frenchclubs getting LESS money ( not sure if the welsh / irish got the same guarantee)

Pretty sure this is bollox, a pure fabrication - I'd be interested to see any evidence, though.

Also pretty sure that Welsh/Irish had the same guarantee, although celts would have suffered financially by losing the bulk of the Italian Pro12 bribe.

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

TJ wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote:And would connachts funding from IRFU have been doubled without the ERC changes? Genuine qn

Is it not relative?  Did Welsh and Scottish and Italian rugby get more money?  Or are we saying that's why Connacht rose on their own merits as Welsh sides sank?
The amount of money only matters when one group gets far more than another...  so how much money have BT injected into AP?

The scots and Italians got a guarantee that they would get no less money under the new format.  As the new format has a much smaller income this resulted in the English / frenchclubs getting LESS money ( not sure if the welsh / irish got the same guarantee)

Pretty sure this is bollox, a pure fabrication - I'd be interested to see any evidence, though.

Also pretty sure that Welsh/Irish had the same guarantee, although celts would have suffered financially by losing the bulk of the Italian Pro12 bribe.

If semi finals continue to attract crowds under 25k then I can't see sponsors continue to poor money into the competition in future deals.

Rugby Fan wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:Interesting article in today's Irish Times with an interview with Irish rugby agent, and ex-player, Niall Woods.

Thanks for that. I just think he's pointing out an inevitable consequence of the rather ham-fisted way our sport has managed the route to professionalism.

I know SecretFly and Sin é have both taken me to task earlier in this thread but I don't think we see rugby too differently. Certainly,we have conflicting opinions about how the whole European saga worked out but, for me, that's more about our understanding of the chronology of events rather than our general philosophy.

I love what the IRFU and the provinces have dome to engage supporters and develop players. I wish it was a workable model for the rest of the rugby world, but it isn't.

I don't love the role of club owners in England and France but I always find it peculiar when these individuals are called greedy, money-loving leeches. In international sport, there are many people who have made fortunes by buying and selling sports franchises but I can't think of anyone who has got rich by buying a professional rugby team.

We know, however, that there is more money in the game, so who is getting rich?

Players are certainly getting paid more, and some are quite wealthy by the standards of the average joe, but not many are at the top of the sporting earning tree.

Coaches, trainers, physios etc are all earning. The best-paid have little job security but the sums at the top level can give a degree of comfort.

Agents got nothing out of rugby before and now are very prominent, so they must count as a major beneficiary. I'm surprised they haven't become more of a target of criticism for people who prefer rugby the old way.

Unions aren't doing too badly of course but, because they are often paying away to the other three groups (depending on the set-up) it's hard to see anyone banking real dough, even the RFU.

And this is the situation we face: lots more money in rugby but no-one making out like a bandit beyond a few star names.

When a straw man I am just inventing says "Why can't we have the Lions, the World Cup, Six Nations, Baa-Baas, Rugby Championship, real tours, competitive leagues, and cross-border competitions", then my response is always this:

It was easy to do in an amateur era when people volunteered labour. Even then, economics broke our sport in two when League wanted clarity and money, and Union continue to fudge the issue for years afterwards. Once you pay players, you have to pay everyone else in the ecosystem.

Here's the problem: the popularity of our sport is far too dependent on success of individual teams.

People play basketball around Britain because they are good at it and enjoy it, not because they think they'll win an Olympic medal. Swansea City drew near capacity crowds all season despite being a mid-table team. The Barmy Army earned their name for travelling to support a team facing certain defeat.

A successful team sport draws people who love success but love the game more.

We need more of the kind of commitment shown by our sport's most passionate fans. The only question I feel we need to address is how to get it across all elite levels of the sport.

It's ridiculous that Australia and NZ are short of funds. When I think of that problem, the European competition pales into insignificance.  I don't know that a global season is the answer but I suspect the answer to a lot of the arguments we have here will come from decisions taken at the highest levels.

Lots of good points in that, RF. 

I do hope that fans and their willingness to turn up to games continues to have a strong influence on the game and where it goes in the future.

LordDowlais wrote:

David-Douglas wrote:Does anyone on here know how many tickets have been sold for the finals?

Are there any freebies like last year?

Well,last nights final was only half sold looking at the empty seats in the stadium. I wonder how today's game will look.

They were only selling tickets for the lower tiers judging by the stadium map earlier on the week if you went to buy tickets - therefore a "full" house!

nathan wrote:
You are comparing apples to oranges and coming up with something that excuses the urine poor performances of the pro 12 teams this season.

It's a league based cup, not a international one. Your get a certain amount of places from each of the leagues, simple.

It's is blindingly obvious to anyone who with an interest in rugby why the Pro12 teams had "urine poor performances" this year. Their representation in the RWC was significantly greater than the teams from the English and French leagues. For example, the Scottish team were choosing mainly from their TWO preofeesional teams; the Welksh from ofur; the Irish from four and the Italians from, two. The English were choosing from 12 and the French from 14. Also the English players returned to their clubs a week before any of the pro12 players giving them an extra week to bed back in with their club squads. The European competition started two weeks after the RWC was over ... not surprising the Pro12 teams were poor.