The EU Referendum - Thursday 23 June (with voting poll)

by Guest Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:37 am

First topic message reminder :

TopHat24/7 wrote:
Munchkin wrote:I may have missed it on this thread but what are peoples thoughts on TTIP? Personally I think TTIP would be a a disaster for the EU, but can we fight it off?

Broadly negative but largely irrelevant as the UK would sign up to it in a flash with or without the EU.

Of course it's negative. It's a warning against TTIP and from a Nobel Prize winning economist. Strange that some here complain about the a lack of attention to 'financial experts' yet seem to brush aside the warnings of one on the worlds leading economists.

You say the UK will accept it in a flash, even if Brexit win. Why? I know Cameron will be quick to sell the UK to the highest bidder, but there are plenty of voices against TTIP, including the leader of the opposition. It would also be very doubtful that Cameron will be in power if Brexit do win.

I haven't got around to reading all the comments in reply to the TTIP article, very busy, but will once I get a break.

by funnyExiledScot Fri Jun 24, 2016 9:49 pm

Sin é wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:Why was that the fault of the EU?

Come on. I know what you are doing here. Of course it's the fault of the EU. It's the old, you can have whatever you want, as long as we agree to it, line.

Ireland were fecked, and the EU loaned them money with massive interest rates, they are no better than loan sharks.

This is what happened:

- The Irish attracted large financial services companies to Ireland with an attractive tax regime (drawing tax revenues from the UK in the process, such as BoAML), and in doing so skewed the balance of its economy heavily in favour of FS institutions.
- The financial crisis gripped the world, and Ireland's economy in particular, reliant on FS and low taxes, hit crisis point. The reckless lending and borrowing in Ireland was off the scale.
- Faced with going to the wall, the ruthless UK and nasty EU, which for years had suffered as a result of Ireland low taxes, bailed them out. Not entirely selflessly because, as we found out today, troubles in one EU member state can have a contagion effect. But still, Ireland would have hit the wall without the money.
- The bail-out was hugely successful, Ireland used the money to inject capital back into its economy and managed to pay back the most expensive loans early:

On 20 March 2015 the NTMA completed the third and final early repayment of Ireland’s IMF loan facility bringing cumulative repayments to approximately SDR15.7 billion. This represents a repayment of just over €18 billion, or 81% of Ireland’s original €22.5 billion IMF loan facility. These repayments discharge IMF principal repayment obligations that were originally to fall due from July 2015 to January 2021. Ireland has fully repaid the more expensive portion of the IMF facility.

It should be noted that Ireland still has a corporation tax of 12.5% (vs 20% for the UK) and has an economy on the mend (fastest growing economy in the EU). If you could have obtained sufficient bail-out funds from elsewhere at a cheaper price without any conditions attaching to it then you should have done so.

A simple thank you would suffice.

German banks had lent €135 billion to Irish banks alone.

Sorry, EU & UK were bailing themselves out, with Irish people paying for the lack of control by the ECB.
What do you think would have happened to all those British companies who export about €20 billion worth to Ireland every year?

Perhaps a thanks to Ireland for getting up off their asses and taking it on the chin to save everyone else might be in order!

I find your unwillingness to attribute accountability to Ireland and the Irish people for their plight staggering, as matched by your failure to recognise that without the bail-out money, Ireland and its people would have suffered to a far greater degree than they did with the bail-out.

Yes, of course there is an interconnectedness in all of this. As with the bail-outs in Spain and Greece, there is clearly a financial incentive for the EU and its financial institutions not to simply let Member States hit the wall of bankruptcy (as well as the human suffering this causes), but that does not mean Ireland, Spain, Greece et al have a right to free bail-out money with no conditions whatsoever attached, and can completely absolve themselves from responsibility. It creates an unacceptable moral hazard.

by mikey_dragon Fri Jun 24, 2016 9:50 pm

Sin é wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Lets take all the emotions out of this for a second. Nobody can predict the future. Who knows how this will pan out. But what we can talk about is the here and now. This result shows that the majority of the UK is fed up with how the EU are doing things, I refuse to accept that we are the only country who feels this way.

What this has done, is taken the EU down a peg, it shows that they should no be the be all and end all of life as we know it.

Do the EU need the UK ? I would wager that they do. I think if the EU needs to remain then they need the power of the UK to do so, along with the Germans and the French of course.

I think that something new will now develop. The EU needs to change, it is not working for every country, this will now send shock waves through Europe and people will now have to start listening to their populations, I will watch what unfolds over the next few months and years with interest. I am looking forward to change, it is coming whether the rest of Europe want it or not.

Can you explain to me why Germany with similar demographics to England/Wales has prospered in the EU and England/Wales has not?

Because they were taking our money? Very Happy

Simple question Sin, if it was relevant to you, are you in or out?

by Sin é Fri Jun 24, 2016 9:50 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:Farage just been on TV saying the £350 million a week for the NHS claim was 'a mistake'.
You couldn't make this stuff up!

Wasn't it Boris that was saying how we should spend that money on the NHS, not Nigel? Nigel won't be PM...in fact, shouldn't UKIP dissolve now?

Oh I see - So Nigel came out and said it was a mistake at the time did he? He argued against it during the campaign?

But yes, they should.

It's just that I didn't hear Nigel say we'll spend that £350M on the NHS, it was Boris. Maybe I just tune into the news when Nige happens to be getting less air time, which I'm sure is just a fortunate coincidence. He's a bell, but he's been an honest one, up to now???

Well, you'll need the 350m extra when all your retired expats have to return home from EU countries because they won't be able to pay for medical services as non-EU passport holders.

by **JuliusHMarx** Fri Jun 24, 2016 9:53 pm

Was this anyone here - http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/eu-referendum-man_uk_576cf8e4e4b08d2c5638ee29?k8b1k6wvy7evzpvi

by **navyblueshorts** Fri Jun 24, 2016 9:53 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Tattie Scones RRN wrote:This proposal will be put forward to the UK electorate who will then be given (and subsequently accept) another referendum. The outcome will then be a comprehensive 'remain' victory and the EU will be run properly.

This 100%.

That's decades in the future, if ever. Great.

by funnyExiledScot Fri Jun 24, 2016 9:53 pm

Sin é wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:Farage just been on TV saying the £350 million a week for the NHS claim was 'a mistake'.
You couldn't make this stuff up!

Wasn't it Boris that was saying how we should spend that money on the NHS, not Nigel? Nigel won't be PM...in fact, shouldn't UKIP dissolve now?

Oh I see - So Nigel came out and said it was a mistake at the time did he? He argued against it during the campaign?

But yes, they should.

It's just that I didn't hear Nigel say we'll spend that £350M on the NHS, it was Boris. Maybe I just tune into the news when Nige happens to be getting less air time, which I'm sure is just a fortunate coincidence. He's a bell, but he's been an honest one, up to now???

Well, you'll need the 350m extra when all your retired expats have to return home from EU countries because they won't be able to pay for medical services as non-EU passport holders.

Ah, but won't that be offset but all those health tourist cockroaches being stopped by English gun boats in the Channel??

I gest of course.

by Sin é Fri Jun 24, 2016 9:54 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
Sin é wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Lets take all the emotions out of this for a second. Nobody can predict the future. Who knows how this will pan out. But what we can talk about is the here and now. This result shows that the majority of the UK is fed up with how the EU are doing things, I refuse to accept that we are the only country who feels this way.

What this has done, is taken the EU down a peg, it shows that they should no be the be all and end all of life as we know it.

Do the EU need the UK ? I would wager that they do. I think if the EU needs to remain then they need the power of the UK to do so, along with the Germans and the French of course.

I think that something new will now develop. The EU needs to change, it is not working for every country, this will now send shock waves through Europe and people will now have to start listening to their populations, I will watch what unfolds over the next few months and years with interest. I am looking forward to change, it is coming whether the rest of Europe want it or not.

Can you explain to me why Germany with similar demographics to England/Wales has prospered in the EU and England/Wales has not?

Because they were taking our money?

Simple question Sin, if it was relevant to you, are you in or out?

In. Lots of faults with the EU, but overall Ireland has thrived since it joined.

by **navyblueshorts** Fri Jun 24, 2016 9:54 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Just lightening the mood. For Julius:

"Brexit' to be followed by Grexit. Departugal. Italeave. Fruckoff. Czechout. Oustria. Finish. Slovakout. Latervia. Byegium.

And Swedone. Thenmark. Extonia.

And Switzeralreadyout... oh wait!?!

And Poleave?

EU later everybody!"

Very good.

by dyrewolfe Fri Jun 24, 2016 9:54 pm

Sin é wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Lets take all the emotions out of this for a second. Nobody can predict the future. Who knows how this will pan out. But what we can talk about is the here and now. This result shows that the majority of the UK is fed up with how the EU are doing things, I refuse to accept that we are the only country who feels this way.

What this has done, is taken the EU down a peg, it shows that they should no be the be all and end all of life as we know it.

Do the EU need the UK ? I would wager that they do. I think if the EU needs to remain then they need the power of the UK to do so, along with the Germans and the French of course.

I think that something new will now develop. The EU needs to change, it is not working for every country, this will now send shock waves through Europe and people will now have to start listening to their populations, I will watch what unfolds over the next few months and years with interest. I am looking forward to change, it is coming whether the rest of Europe want it or not.

Can you explain to me why Germany with similar demographics to England/Wales has prospered in the EU and England/Wales has not?

What are you talking about?

The UK has been consistently one of the most prosperous nations in the EU...due in no small part to our decision to keep Sterling instead of changing to the Euro. We also rode out the last recession better than most.

by **JuliusHMarx** Fri Jun 24, 2016 9:55 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:Farage just been on TV saying the £350 million a week for the NHS claim was 'a mistake'.
You couldn't make this stuff up!

Wasn't it Boris that was saying how we should spend that money on the NHS, not Nigel? Nigel won't be PM...in fact, shouldn't UKIP dissolve now?

Oh I see - So Nigel came out and said it was a mistake at the time did he? He argued against it during the campaign?

But yes, they should.

It's just that I didn't hear Nigel say we'll spend that £350M on the NHS, it was Boris. Maybe I just tune into the news when Nige happens to be getting less air time, which I'm sure is just a fortunate coincidence. He's a bell, but he's been an honest one, up to now???

He knew something was factually incorrect but kept quiet about it for his own purposes, rather than level with the voters - that's honest?

by Tattie Scones RRN Fri Jun 24, 2016 9:55 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:
Tattie Scones RRN wrote:This is what I think will happen now.

There WILL be serious reform within the EU and I imagine that a proposal will be put forward that committee members will, in future, be elected in addition to some real improvements that will benefit each member state.

This proposal will be put forward to the UK electorate who will then be given (and subsequently accept) another referendum. The outcome will then be a comprehensive 'remain' victory and the EU will be run properly.

Thats a hell of a lot of assumptions. Sounds more like wishful thinking tbh.

You're assuming the other members will want to give the UK the option of staying in, rather than just getting on with the exit process.

You're also assuming (if this happens) that the government will want to go through the process of another referendum, so soon after this one. What would the new deal offer us and could they sell it to the public?

Given we've just voted to leave, would public opinion really change that much in such a short space of time? How likely is it voters would be swayed before we've even had a chance to sample whatever benefits or disadvantages Brexit offers? Personally I feel it would take some really major changes and concessions to sway public opinion. How far are they willing to reform and even then, will it persuade enough Euro-sceptics to change their minds?

The last few words also made me chuckle. There is an old saying: "You can please some of the people some of the time, but you can't please everyone all the time". People will have different opinions on what constitutes a "properly run" EU.

Dyrewolfe....

Had the Leave margin of vote been, say, 85% to 15% then, yep - we'd be out. But my thoughts come from the fact that it was 50/50 (of those who voted). That to me, states we dislike how things are and want change, rather than deserting it completely.

Your bit in bold is exactly what is required.

And if this happens (which as a leave voter, I sincerely hope it does), then instead of the name-calling pettiness that we've witnessed between both campaigns, what we'll really need is impartial advice, stating clearly what the pro's and con's are to staying or leaving.

And I don't mean....

Pro's - we'll stop paying £300m a week to a bunch of guys spunking it up against the wall.

Con's - 3 million people will lose their job.

by mikey_dragon Fri Jun 24, 2016 9:56 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:Was this anyone here - http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/eu-referendum-man_uk_576cf8e4e4b08d2c5638ee29?k8b1k6wvy7evzpvi

He gets called a moron for voting leave. The inners just can't help themselves, but I guess I should thank them for helping some folk off the fence Wink

.

by **JuliusHMarx** Fri Jun 24, 2016 9:57 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Just lightening the mood. For Julius:

"Brexit' to be followed by Grexit. Departugal. Italeave. Fruckoff. Czechout. Oustria. Finish. Slovakout. Latervia. Byegium.

Excellent work Laugh

by Tattie Scones RRN Fri Jun 24, 2016 9:59 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Tattie Scones RRN wrote:This proposal will be put forward to the UK electorate who will then be given (and subsequently accept) another referendum. The outcome will then be a comprehensive 'remain' victory and the EU will be run properly.

This 100%.

That's decades in the future, if ever. Great.

How did you work that one out?

by mikey_dragon Fri Jun 24, 2016 9:59 pm

Sin é wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:Farage just been on TV saying the £350 million a week for the NHS claim was 'a mistake'.
You couldn't make this stuff up!

Wasn't it Boris that was saying how we should spend that money on the NHS, not Nigel? Nigel won't be PM...in fact, shouldn't UKIP dissolve now?

Oh I see - So Nigel came out and said it was a mistake at the time did he? He argued against it during the campaign?

But yes, they should.

It's just that I didn't hear Nigel say we'll spend that £350M on the NHS, it was Boris. Maybe I just tune into the news when Nige happens to be getting less air time, which I'm sure is just a fortunate coincidence. He's a bell, but he's been an honest one, up to now???

Well, you'll need the 350m extra when all your retired expats have to return home from EU countries because they won't be able to pay for medical services as non-EU passport holders.

Or the Expats could just pay for healthcare, as they should, and further benefit that economy like they have been. I think some people struggle to understand what an expat is. I recently witnessed a Remainer post an ill-informed rant on Facebook, where he spelt it as expatriot laughing

. So that's not an expatriate worker I take it, it's an ex patriot who's left the UK as they no longer feel patriotic?

by funnyExiledScot Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:00 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Just lightening the mood. For Julius:

"Brexit' to be followed by Grexit. Departugal. Italeave. Fruckoff. Czechout. Oustria. Finish. Slovakout. Latervia. Byegium.

Excellent work

That has triggered my first smile of the day.

by mikey_dragon Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:00 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Just lightening the mood. For Julius:

"Brexit' to be followed by Grexit. Departugal. Italeave. Fruckoff. Czechout. Oustria. Finish. Slovakout. Latervia. Byegium.

Excellent work

I can't take credit for it unfortunately, but it is brilliant.

by dyrewolfe Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:01 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:

FROM NOW ON JUNE 24TH SHALL BE KNOWN AS INDEPENDENCE DAY!

Don't we have to kill all the aliens (immigrants) first?

Lol!

I'd settle for just politely shepherding them on to the next available flights (the illegal ones, that is...if we could just darn well find them).

by **JuliusHMarx** Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:06 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:Was this anyone here - http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/eu-referendum-man_uk_576cf8e4e4b08d2c5638ee29?k8b1k6wvy7evzpvi

He gets called a moron for voting leave. The inners just can't help themselves, but I guess I should thank them for helping some folk off the fence .

No, he's gets called a moron for voting leave because he didn't think it would matter, and then wishing he had voted remain after leave won.

by mikey_dragon Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:07 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:Was this anyone here - http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/eu-referendum-man_uk_576cf8e4e4b08d2c5638ee29?k8b1k6wvy7evzpvi

He gets called a moron for voting leave. The inners just can't help themselves, but I guess I should thank them for helping some folk off the fence .

No, he's gets called a moron for voting leave because he didn't think it would matter, and then wishing he had voted remain after leave won.

Perhaps, but then there's all the other names your side has called the other.

by Sin é Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:08 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
Sin é wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:Why was that the fault of the EU?

Come on. I know what you are doing here. Of course it's the fault of the EU. It's the old, you can have whatever you want, as long as we agree to it, line.

Ireland were fecked, and the EU loaned them money with massive interest rates, they are no better than loan sharks.

This is what happened:

- The Irish attracted large financial services companies to Ireland with an attractive tax regime (drawing tax revenues from the UK in the process, such as BoAML), and in doing so skewed the balance of its economy heavily in favour of FS institutions.
- The financial crisis gripped the world, and Ireland's economy in particular, reliant on FS and low taxes, hit crisis point. The reckless lending and borrowing in Ireland was off the scale.
- Faced with going to the wall, the ruthless UK and nasty EU, which for years had suffered as a result of Ireland low taxes, bailed them out. Not entirely selflessly because, as we found out today, troubles in one EU member state can have a contagion effect. But still, Ireland would have hit the wall without the money.
- The bail-out was hugely successful, Ireland used the money to inject capital back into its economy and managed to pay back the most expensive loans early:

On 20 March 2015 the NTMA completed the third and final early repayment of Ireland’s IMF loan facility bringing cumulative repayments to approximately SDR15.7 billion. This represents a repayment of just over €18 billion, or 81% of Ireland’s original €22.5 billion IMF loan facility. These repayments discharge IMF principal repayment obligations that were originally to fall due from July 2015 to January 2021. Ireland has fully repaid the more expensive portion of the IMF facility.

It should be noted that Ireland still has a corporation tax of 12.5% (vs 20% for the UK) and has an economy on the mend (fastest growing economy in the EU). If you could have obtained sufficient bail-out funds from elsewhere at a cheaper price without any conditions attaching to it then you should have done so.

A simple thank you would suffice.

German banks had lent €135 billion to Irish banks alone.

Sorry, EU & UK were bailing themselves out, with Irish people paying for the lack of control by the ECB.
What do you think would have happened to all those British companies who export about €20 billion worth to Ireland every year?

Perhaps a thanks to Ireland for getting up off their asses and taking it on the chin to save everyone else might be in order!

I find your unwillingness to attribute accountability to Ireland and the Irish people for their plight staggering, as matched by your failure to recognise that without the bail-out money, Ireland and its people would have suffered to a far greater degree than they did with the bail-out.

Yes, of course there is an interconnectedness in all of this. As with the bail-outs in Spain and Greece, there is clearly a financial incentive for the EU and its financial institutions not to simply let Member States hit the wall of bankruptcy (as well as the human suffering this causes), but that does not mean Ireland, Spain, Greece et al have a right to free bail-out money with no conditions whatsoever attached, and can completely absolve themselves from responsibility. It creates an unacceptable moral hazard.

I wasn't looking for free bailout money. We could have burnt the bondholders - they are the ones who took the risk in the first place and we bailed them out (German banks 135 billion).

Iceland is doing pretty well now having let their banks fail.

by **JuliusHMarx** Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:10 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:Was this anyone here - http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/eu-referendum-man_uk_576cf8e4e4b08d2c5638ee29?k8b1k6wvy7evzpvi

He gets called a moron for voting leave. The inners just can't help themselves, but I guess I should thank them for helping some folk off the fence .

No, he's gets called a moron for voting leave because he didn't think it would matter, and then wishing he had voted remain after leave won.

Perhaps, but then there's all the other names your side has called the other.

'My side'? Do we all look the same to you?

by dyrewolfe Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:12 pm

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
Tattie Scones RRN wrote:This is what I think will happen now.

There WILL be serious reform within the EU and I imagine that a proposal will be put forward that committee members will, in future, be elected in addition to some real improvements that will benefit each member state.

This proposal will be put forward to the UK electorate who will then be given (and subsequently accept) another referendum. The outcome will then be a comprehensive 'remain' victory and the EU will be run properly.

Thats a hell of a lot of assumptions. Sounds more like wishful thinking tbh.

You're assuming the other members will want to give the UK the option of staying in, rather than just getting on with the exit process.

You're also assuming (if this happens) that the government will want to go through the process of another referendum, so soon after this one. What would the new deal offer us and could they sell it to the public?

Given we've just voted to leave, would public opinion really change that much in such a short space of time? How likely is it voters would be swayed before we've even had a chance to sample whatever benefits or disadvantages Brexit offers? Personally I feel it would take some really major changes and concessions to sway public opinion. How far are they willing to reform and even then, will it persuade enough Euro-sceptics to change their minds?

The last few words also made me chuckle. There is an old saying: "You can please some of the people some of the time, but you can't please everyone all the time". People will have different opinions on what constitutes a "properly run" EU.

Dyrewolfe....

Had the Leave margin of vote been, say, 85% to 15% then, yep - we'd be out. But my thoughts come from the fact that it was 50/50 (of those who voted). That to me, states we dislike how things are and want change, rather than deserting it completely.

Your bit in bold is exactly what is required.

And if this happens (which as a leave voter, I sincerely hope it does), then instead of the name-calling pettiness that we've witnessed between both campaigns, what we'll really need is impartial advice, stating clearly what the pro's and con's are to staying or leaving.

And I don't mean....

Pro's - we'll stop paying £300m a week to a bunch of guys spunking it up against the wall.

Con's - 3 million people will lose their job.

Sadly, thats precisely what both sides were unable to provide for us. I think there are too many vested interests on both sides for anyone to give truly accurate, impartial advice. As usual it will be down to us to dig for whatever facts we can find, think about what the most likely implications will be and make the best judgement we can from that.

In fact, the scare tactics, name-calling etc. may well have contributed to the Leave vote winning, giving people a, "Screw this - lets just do it" mindset.

by Guest Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:14 pm

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Tattie Scones RRN wrote:This proposal will be put forward to the UK electorate who will then be given (and subsequently accept) another referendum. The outcome will then be a comprehensive 'remain' victory and the EU will be run properly.

This 100%.

That's decades in the future, if ever. Great.

How did you work that one out?

He's an optimist Smile

by **JuliusHMarx** Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:14 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36618796

You have to feel sorry for the Gibraltarians.

by funnyExiledScot Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:15 pm

Sin é wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
Sin é wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:Why was that the fault of the EU?

Come on. I know what you are doing here. Of course it's the fault of the EU. It's the old, you can have whatever you want, as long as we agree to it, line.

Ireland were fecked, and the EU loaned them money with massive interest rates, they are no better than loan sharks.

This is what happened:

- The Irish attracted large financial services companies to Ireland with an attractive tax regime (drawing tax revenues from the UK in the process, such as BoAML), and in doing so skewed the balance of its economy heavily in favour of FS institutions.
- The financial crisis gripped the world, and Ireland's economy in particular, reliant on FS and low taxes, hit crisis point. The reckless lending and borrowing in Ireland was off the scale.
- Faced with going to the wall, the ruthless UK and nasty EU, which for years had suffered as a result of Ireland low taxes, bailed them out. Not entirely selflessly because, as we found out today, troubles in one EU member state can have a contagion effect. But still, Ireland would have hit the wall without the money.
- The bail-out was hugely successful, Ireland used the money to inject capital back into its economy and managed to pay back the most expensive loans early:

On 20 March 2015 the NTMA completed the third and final early repayment of Ireland’s IMF loan facility bringing cumulative repayments to approximately SDR15.7 billion. This represents a repayment of just over €18 billion, or 81% of Ireland’s original €22.5 billion IMF loan facility. These repayments discharge IMF principal repayment obligations that were originally to fall due from July 2015 to January 2021. Ireland has fully repaid the more expensive portion of the IMF facility.

It should be noted that Ireland still has a corporation tax of 12.5% (vs 20% for the UK) and has an economy on the mend (fastest growing economy in the EU). If you could have obtained sufficient bail-out funds from elsewhere at a cheaper price without any conditions attaching to it then you should have done so.

A simple thank you would suffice.

German banks had lent €135 billion to Irish banks alone.

Sorry, EU & UK were bailing themselves out, with Irish people paying for the lack of control by the ECB.
What do you think would have happened to all those British companies who export about €20 billion worth to Ireland every year?

Perhaps a thanks to Ireland for getting up off their asses and taking it on the chin to save everyone else might be in order!

I find your unwillingness to attribute accountability to Ireland and the Irish people for their plight staggering, as matched by your failure to recognise that without the bail-out money, Ireland and its people would have suffered to a far greater degree than they did with the bail-out.

Yes, of course there is an interconnectedness in all of this. As with the bail-outs in Spain and Greece, there is clearly a financial incentive for the EU and its financial institutions not to simply let Member States hit the wall of bankruptcy (as well as the human suffering this causes), but that does not mean Ireland, Spain, Greece et al have a right to free bail-out money with no conditions whatsoever attached, and can completely absolve themselves from responsibility. It creates an unacceptable moral hazard.

I wasn't looking for free bailout money. We could have burnt the bondholders - they are the ones who took the risk in the first place and we bailed them out (German banks 135 billion).

Iceland is doing pretty well now having let their banks fail.

Well at least that's something. The poster who initially triggered my rant was moaning about the terms of the loans, which I thought a bit rich.

I suppose the cost of defaulting and declaring bankruptcy might have been greater than the bail-out. We'll never know.

by Alex_Germany Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:15 pm

DAVE667 wrote:Saddest sight of all has to be Samantha Cameron as she's hit with the sobering realization that the f*cking party is over and she's going to have to get a job.

Cameron steps down as he says he's not the man to take the Country forward. Can I ask this, what if there was a fear of a war and Cameron was opposed to it but we went to war anyway, would he have stepped down or would he have done his f*cking duty and led the Country that elected him to lead?

When the going gets tough, the Prime Minister says, "Ooh, it's a bit difficult, I think I'll sit this one out!"

I can understand Cameron stepping down. He said some time ago: "I didn't go into to politics to make cuts". He's been forced to push through austerity, and just when they're getting the finances under some sort of control, just when the Government can look forward to doing more popular things like cutting taxes (or increasing spending if it were Labour - I'm sure Darling would have done much the same as Osborne up till now), the electorate goes and votes for a 10% pay cut and a few more years of austerity.

Cameron wanted to balance the books at the end of this parliament, claim victory, and ride off into the sunset. That's not going to happen. Why stay to dish out more austerity? Leave it Boris to reap what he has sown.

by SecretFly Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:15 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36618796

You have to feel sorry for the Gibraltarians.

We get all the rain.

by Sin é Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:18 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:
Sin é wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Lets take all the emotions out of this for a second. Nobody can predict the future. Who knows how this will pan out. But what we can talk about is the here and now. This result shows that the majority of the UK is fed up with how the EU are doing things, I refuse to accept that we are the only country who feels this way.

What this has done, is taken the EU down a peg, it shows that they should no be the be all and end all of life as we know it.

Do the EU need the UK ? I would wager that they do. I think if the EU needs to remain then they need the power of the UK to do so, along with the Germans and the French of course.

I think that something new will now develop. The EU needs to change, it is not working for every country, this will now send shock waves through Europe and people will now have to start listening to their populations, I will watch what unfolds over the next few months and years with interest. I am looking forward to change, it is coming whether the rest of Europe want it or not.

Can you explain to me why Germany with similar demographics to England/Wales has prospered in the EU and England/Wales has not?

What are you talking about?

The UK has been consistently one of the most prosperous nations in the EU...due in no small part to our decision to keep Sterling instead of changing to the Euro. We also rode out the last recession better than most.

If you are so prosperous and well off, whats the problem with immigrants?

by Alex_Germany Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:19 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36618796

You have to feel sorry for the Gibraltarians.

Yes. Their best hope now is to join Scotland, who then take the UK's place in the EU.

It could then be structured as England and Wales (not sure about NI) leaving the UK.

Which ever way, it ends up as a Frak.

by **JuliusHMarx** Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:20 pm

Sin é wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
Sin é wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Lets take all the emotions out of this for a second. Nobody can predict the future. Who knows how this will pan out. But what we can talk about is the here and now. This result shows that the majority of the UK is fed up with how the EU are doing things, I refuse to accept that we are the only country who feels this way.

What this has done, is taken the EU down a peg, it shows that they should no be the be all and end all of life as we know it.

Do the EU need the UK ? I would wager that they do. I think if the EU needs to remain then they need the power of the UK to do so, along with the Germans and the French of course.

I think that something new will now develop. The EU needs to change, it is not working for every country, this will now send shock waves through Europe and people will now have to start listening to their populations, I will watch what unfolds over the next few months and years with interest. I am looking forward to change, it is coming whether the rest of Europe want it or not.

Can you explain to me why Germany with similar demographics to England/Wales has prospered in the EU and England/Wales has not?

What are you talking about?

The UK has been consistently one of the most prosperous nations in the EU...due in no small part to our decision to keep Sterling instead of changing to the Euro. We also rode out the last recession better than most.

If you are so prosperous and well off, whats the problem with immigrants?

We're also greedy and selfish.

by GSC Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:20 pm

Sounds like Labours MPs are now making their move to oust Jezza

by Alex_Germany Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:22 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36618796

You have to feel sorry for the Gibraltarians.

To misquote: "Weep not for them, but for your children"

by SecretFly Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:23 pm

Alex_Germany wrote:
DAVE667 wrote:Saddest sight of all has to be Samantha Cameron as she's hit with the sobering realization that the f*cking party is over and she's going to have to get a job.

Cameron steps down as he says he's not the man to take the Country forward. Can I ask this, what if there was a fear of a war and Cameron was opposed to it but we went to war anyway, would he have stepped down or would he have done his f*cking duty and led the Country that elected him to lead?

When the going gets tough, the Prime Minister says, "Ooh, it's a bit difficult, I think I'll sit this one out!"

I can understand Cameron stepping down. He said some time ago: "I didn't go into to politics to make cuts". He's been forced to push through austerity, and just when they're getting the finances under some sort of control, just when the Government can look forward to doing more popular things like cutting taxes (or increasing spending if it were Labour - I'm sure Darling would have done much the same as Osborne up till now), the electorate goes and votes for a 10% pay cut and a few more years of austerity.

Cameron wanted to balance the books at the end of this parliament, claim victory, and ride off into the sunset. That's not going to happen. Why stay to dish out more austerity? Leave it Boris to reap what he has sown.

But sure Germany,France and the other boys will be there to help out their friends, pals and neighbours in a neighbouring Nation surely? Aren't they nice people with a heart after all? They won't bang the door in the face of a friend....will they?

by **JuliusHMarx** Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:23 pm

GSC wrote:Sounds like Labours MPs are now making their move to oust Jezza

The LibDems would probably get rid of Tim whatsisface if any of them knew who he was.

by funnyExiledScot Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:24 pm

GSC wrote:Sounds like Labours MPs are now making their move to oust Jezza

Not before time.

by Guest Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:24 pm

GSC wrote:Sounds like Labours MPs are now making their move to oust Jezza

One can only hope.

by dyrewolfe Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:28 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36618796

You have to feel sorry for the Gibraltarians.

Well they voted to stay, so maybe it wouldn't be such a bad thing? They'd be like a big expat comunity.

by Rowley Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:29 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
GSC wrote:Sounds like Labours MPs are now making their move to oust Jezza

Not before time.

Agreed. This campaign has really highlighted his lack of gravitas and leadership. He has been woeful at getting his message over, whatever the hell it may be. As a left wing leader he should be sending the message that the issues the UK faces now are the result of the global financial crash some years followed by the policy of austerity that followed it, not the EU and not free movement. That at least does not make him look like he has completely u-turned on his previous position on Europe, he does not possess Boris' chutzpah to carry that off. Might even be a message traditional labour supporters might actually find themselves in agreement with.

by dyrewolfe Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:32 pm

Sin é wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
Sin é wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Lets take all the emotions out of this for a second. Nobody can predict the future. Who knows how this will pan out. But what we can talk about is the here and now. This result shows that the majority of the UK is fed up with how the EU are doing things, I refuse to accept that we are the only country who feels this way.

What this has done, is taken the EU down a peg, it shows that they should no be the be all and end all of life as we know it.

Do the EU need the UK ? I would wager that they do. I think if the EU needs to remain then they need the power of the UK to do so, along with the Germans and the French of course.

I think that something new will now develop. The EU needs to change, it is not working for every country, this will now send shock waves through Europe and people will now have to start listening to their populations, I will watch what unfolds over the next few months and years with interest. I am looking forward to change, it is coming whether the rest of Europe want it or not.

Can you explain to me why Germany with similar demographics to England/Wales has prospered in the EU and England/Wales has not?

What are you talking about?

The UK has been consistently one of the most prosperous nations in the EU...due in no small part to our decision to keep Sterling instead of changing to the Euro. We also rode out the last recession better than most.

If you are so prosperous and well off, whats the problem with immigrants?

Lack of space is the main problem. We're a small island and there is only so much space to build houses and roads. Housing is already ridiculously expensive and in short supply in many areas. Traffic congestion is also a major problem.

Also, while the population is generally fairly well off, the same can't be said for many public services, such as the NHS, schools, public transport etc. which have been badly managed for decades (spent shedloads of money with little in the way of noticeable improvement).

by **JuliusHMarx** Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:35 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:Lack of space is the main problem. We're a small island and there is only so much space to build houses and roads.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18623096 - The great myth of urban Britain

10.6% is urbanised (in 2012). 2.3% is 'built on'.

by SecretFly Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:37 pm

The irony is that 'Jezza' was really on the side of his voters
....but was kinda probably forced to be a 'Remain' guy by the central partyists, who probably feel more Conservative anyway - as in New Labourish an' all
...anyway, these guys will now want to kill Jeremy off because he couldn't give his voters a message they would believe in -
...yet the Labour voters, it seems, believed ever nuance of it. They believed Jeremy was bluffing, that his heart wasn't in it, that he was giving them the signal that it was ok to vote Leave.

So the Labour followers follow the true instincts of their Leader but the other Labour party people (with the Conservative crisp-suits) still haven't gotten the message from their own members and the last election - and now want to offload the man who still knows the Labour voters better than they do.

Yeah - its a bizarre world alright.

by Sin é Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:38 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
Sin é wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
Sin é wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:Why was that the fault of the EU?

Come on. I know what you are doing here. Of course it's the fault of the EU. It's the old, you can have whatever you want, as long as we agree to it, line.

Ireland were fecked, and the EU loaned them money with massive interest rates, they are no better than loan sharks.

This is what happened:

- The Irish attracted large financial services companies to Ireland with an attractive tax regime (drawing tax revenues from the UK in the process, such as BoAML), and in doing so skewed the balance of its economy heavily in favour of FS institutions.
- The financial crisis gripped the world, and Ireland's economy in particular, reliant on FS and low taxes, hit crisis point. The reckless lending and borrowing in Ireland was off the scale.
- Faced with going to the wall, the ruthless UK and nasty EU, which for years had suffered as a result of Ireland low taxes, bailed them out. Not entirely selflessly because, as we found out today, troubles in one EU member state can have a contagion effect. But still, Ireland would have hit the wall without the money.
- The bail-out was hugely successful, Ireland used the money to inject capital back into its economy and managed to pay back the most expensive loans early:

On 20 March 2015 the NTMA completed the third and final early repayment of Ireland’s IMF loan facility bringing cumulative repayments to approximately SDR15.7 billion. This represents a repayment of just over €18 billion, or 81% of Ireland’s original €22.5 billion IMF loan facility. These repayments discharge IMF principal repayment obligations that were originally to fall due from July 2015 to January 2021. Ireland has fully repaid the more expensive portion of the IMF facility.

It should be noted that Ireland still has a corporation tax of 12.5% (vs 20% for the UK) and has an economy on the mend (fastest growing economy in the EU). If you could have obtained sufficient bail-out funds from elsewhere at a cheaper price without any conditions attaching to it then you should have done so.

A simple thank you would suffice.

German banks had lent €135 billion to Irish banks alone.

Sorry, EU & UK were bailing themselves out, with Irish people paying for the lack of control by the ECB.
What do you think would have happened to all those British companies who export about €20 billion worth to Ireland every year?

Perhaps a thanks to Ireland for getting up off their asses and taking it on the chin to save everyone else might be in order!

I find your unwillingness to attribute accountability to Ireland and the Irish people for their plight staggering, as matched by your failure to recognise that without the bail-out money, Ireland and its people would have suffered to a far greater degree than they did with the bail-out.

Yes, of course there is an interconnectedness in all of this. As with the bail-outs in Spain and Greece, there is clearly a financial incentive for the EU and its financial institutions not to simply let Member States hit the wall of bankruptcy (as well as the human suffering this causes), but that does not mean Ireland, Spain, Greece et al have a right to free bail-out money with no conditions whatsoever attached, and can completely absolve themselves from responsibility. It creates an unacceptable moral hazard.

I wasn't looking for free bailout money. We could have burnt the bondholders - they are the ones who took the risk in the first place and we bailed them out (German banks 135 billion).

Iceland is doing pretty well now having let their banks fail.

Well at least that's something. The poster who initially triggered my rant was moaning about the terms of the loans, which I thought a bit rich.

I suppose the cost of defaulting and declaring bankruptcy might have been greater than the bail-out. We'll never know.

There seems to me to be an attitude that Britain and EU saved Ireland when in fact they just hung Ireland out to dry. They wanted and got their pound of flesh.

by Guest Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:40 pm

Corbyn is an incompetent.

by funnyExiledScot Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:42 pm

Sin é wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
Sin é wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
Sin é wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:Why was that the fault of the EU?

Come on. I know what you are doing here. Of course it's the fault of the EU. It's the old, you can have whatever you want, as long as we agree to it, line.

Ireland were fecked, and the EU loaned them money with massive interest rates, they are no better than loan sharks.

This is what happened:

- The Irish attracted large financial services companies to Ireland with an attractive tax regime (drawing tax revenues from the UK in the process, such as BoAML), and in doing so skewed the balance of its economy heavily in favour of FS institutions.
- The financial crisis gripped the world, and Ireland's economy in particular, reliant on FS and low taxes, hit crisis point. The reckless lending and borrowing in Ireland was off the scale.
- Faced with going to the wall, the ruthless UK and nasty EU, which for years had suffered as a result of Ireland low taxes, bailed them out. Not entirely selflessly because, as we found out today, troubles in one EU member state can have a contagion effect. But still, Ireland would have hit the wall without the money.
- The bail-out was hugely successful, Ireland used the money to inject capital back into its economy and managed to pay back the most expensive loans early:

On 20 March 2015 the NTMA completed the third and final early repayment of Ireland’s IMF loan facility bringing cumulative repayments to approximately SDR15.7 billion. This represents a repayment of just over €18 billion, or 81% of Ireland’s original €22.5 billion IMF loan facility. These repayments discharge IMF principal repayment obligations that were originally to fall due from July 2015 to January 2021. Ireland has fully repaid the more expensive portion of the IMF facility.

It should be noted that Ireland still has a corporation tax of 12.5% (vs 20% for the UK) and has an economy on the mend (fastest growing economy in the EU). If you could have obtained sufficient bail-out funds from elsewhere at a cheaper price without any conditions attaching to it then you should have done so.

A simple thank you would suffice.

German banks had lent €135 billion to Irish banks alone.

Sorry, EU & UK were bailing themselves out, with Irish people paying for the lack of control by the ECB.
What do you think would have happened to all those British companies who export about €20 billion worth to Ireland every year?

Perhaps a thanks to Ireland for getting up off their asses and taking it on the chin to save everyone else might be in order!

I find your unwillingness to attribute accountability to Ireland and the Irish people for their plight staggering, as matched by your failure to recognise that without the bail-out money, Ireland and its people would have suffered to a far greater degree than they did with the bail-out.

Yes, of course there is an interconnectedness in all of this. As with the bail-outs in Spain and Greece, there is clearly a financial incentive for the EU and its financial institutions not to simply let Member States hit the wall of bankruptcy (as well as the human suffering this causes), but that does not mean Ireland, Spain, Greece et al have a right to free bail-out money with no conditions whatsoever attached, and can completely absolve themselves from responsibility. It creates an unacceptable moral hazard.

I wasn't looking for free bailout money. We could have burnt the bondholders - they are the ones who took the risk in the first place and we bailed them out (German banks 135 billion).

Iceland is doing pretty well now having let their banks fail.

Well at least that's something. The poster who initially triggered my rant was moaning about the terms of the loans, which I thought a bit rich.

I suppose the cost of defaulting and declaring bankruptcy might have been greater than the bail-out. We'll never know.

There seems to me to be an attitude that Britain and EU saved Ireland when in fact they just hung Ireland out to dry. They wanted and got their pound of flesh.

For what it's worth I don't think that the UK or EU "saved" Ireland, I think they presented Ireland (if a difficult position at the time, in part down to its own making) with an option, which Ireland took. The option taken by Ireland has worked. Ireland has recovered and the emergency funding repaid.

by mikey_dragon Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:46 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:Was this anyone here - http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/eu-referendum-man_uk_576cf8e4e4b08d2c5638ee29?k8b1k6wvy7evzpvi

He gets called a moron for voting leave. The inners just can't help themselves, but I guess I should thank them for helping some folk off the fence .

No, he's gets called a moron for voting leave because he didn't think it would matter, and then wishing he had voted remain after leave won.

Perhaps, but then there's all the other names your side has called the other.

'My side'? Do we all look the same to you?

You know what I meant so please don't act silly, in an attempt to move on from the embarrassing reaction by a lot of Remain voters.

And to answer your question, yes. You all look like green little men Wink

.

by SecretFly Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:56 pm

Munchkin wrote:Corbyn is an incompetent.

Yes...and I'm not sure I'd have a lot of fun in his company! Very dour man.

But it is still bizarre - just in observational terms - that the bulk of the Labour MPs are still so adamant that they'll force Labour voters to obey their vision of Labour rather than the other way round . The truth seems to be (and demonstrated 3 times now in quick succession) that Labour core voters are dictating to the party how it'll be...which is kinda the natural way of things.

by dyrewolfe Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:57 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:Lack of space is the main problem. We're a small island and there is only so much space to build houses and roads.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18623096 - The great myth of urban Britain

10.6% is urbanised (in 2012). 2.3% is 'built on'.

Nice try Julius but that wasn't my argument.

What I was saying there is only so much space that CAN be built on.

Large parts of our land are used for farming, forestry, national parks...and the MOD among other things. There are also large areas that are unsuitable for development due to their tendency to get flooded on a regular basis.

So, yes the UK isn't quite a concrete jungle just yet, but I don't think anyone wants to see it become one either.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-30776306

by Alex_Germany Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:08 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:Lack of space is the main problem. We're a small island and there is only so much space to build houses and roads.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18623096 - The great myth of urban Britain

10.6% is urbanised (in 2012). 2.3% is 'built on'.

Nice try Julius but that wasn't my argument.

What I was saying there is only so much space that CAN be built on.

Large parts of our land are used for farming, forestry, national parks...and the MOD among other things. There are also large areas that are unsuitable for development due to their tendency to get flooded on a regular basis.

So, yes the UK isn't quite a concrete jungle just yet, but I don't think anyone wants to see it become one either.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-30776306

That is a question of planning permission.

The UK could build a lot more densely than it does. It should look to some European countries as to how. Oh... OK then.

by lostinwales Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:10 pm

Munchkin wrote:Corbyn is an incompetent.

Oh I think he has a place but its preferably as far away from power as possible.

If there was however someone remotely competent leading the Labour party they should have been able to have made a lot out of the conservative party tearing itself in two. As for the LibDems they seem to have disappeared altogether as a national party.

Of course now that Leave has won the Tories will unite under Emperor Boris the 1st.

Scary times - imagine having to choose between Boris and Jeremy...

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