Ulster 2016/2017

First topic message reminder :

Redman wrote:

clivemcl wrote:Any inside info on Dom Ryan yet? 27 and the only IQ backrower not tied up for next year. Where do you put his out of interest in a pecking order? Better or worse than Clive Ross? My hunch is better, but I've not really ever watched him closely.

Has to be better.  I looked him up before and he has something like 100 or so caps for Leinster.  Ross has about 50 for us, and it's got to be tougher to get a cap for Leinster than it is for Ulster in the backrow - even allowing for international call ups.  

Dryan ®, as he shall be known if he signs, also has 20 or so U20 caps.  

That said, I haven't seen him play.

Hmm has anyone used the family stand or terrace?

Grandstand 9. Row 0. Are the ones I have

marty2086 wrote:So you think the 73 points swing we need is possible tom?

Nope, but I think that Timoney is more important to us next season and the experience of playing against that Leinster team would help him.

Herbst has dropped out of the squad with a knee injury and Lutton comes on to the bench

Realistically Wilson should not have been playing for the last 2 years and the younger guys should have been given the chance. By now we may have had guys who were at least pro 12 standard. However this is the only game in the last 2 years where I would advocate playing Wilson, it will be his last competitive game, it's a Ravenhill and he has been a great servant down the years, he does deserve this farewell chance especially with nothing particularly on the line except pride.

The injustice is Wilson having played 13 times this season, not being given a send off in his final game.

I'd have no issue with Timoney being stood down to allow Ulster's record cap holder to have a final day in the sun, even with his previous indiscretions, if Timoney had been given a proper chance during the season. Or Dow or anyone else for that matter.

To that matter Van Der Merve is he injured or is he being held out to dry for the sake having a scape goat?

Poor that in a complete nothing game we can't find a spot for him. He wasn't Johann Miller but he put in an honest shift for us.

Wilson should be given his send off against the Barbarians not this game.

Lutton not getting a contract its seems so today is his last game for Ulster.
Given the talent coming through at prop I am ok with that.

The area that scares me is 2nd row
Treadwell, Henderson starters
AOC, Browne, Diack as backup

So Henderson with Ireland, AOC out with his long term problems
Wouldn't take much for us to have no fit capable lock to put on the bench
Which is why Hamilton is not such a dumb idea if true

Is Pete Browne injured?

If Reidy, Botha and Coetzee are all supposed to be 8s, Henry increasingly injury prone and Henderson exclusively a lock - maybe Cunningham has given Paul Marshall another year as backrow cover? At least he might reach the breakdown before the ball is gone (which would be an improvement on this season).

Reidy isn't an 8, he is a 7 who has been playing at 8 due to lack of options and Coetzee has rarely played 8 before moving to Ulster. The reality is our depth in both the back row and second row is crap and we need some players to come up from the academy, hence why the likes of Timoney need game time asap.

Coetzee is a primarily a 6

I expect the starting backrow to be Coetzee, Botha, Henry/Reidy
with whoever loses out at 7 on the bench

The backup will be kids Jones, Dow, Rea, Timoney and, I think, O'Connor jnr with Ross as the break glass option.
Given the severe shortage in the second row I don't believe you will see much, if any, of Henderson or Diack in the backrow

Browne, like de Merwe, seems to be a forgotten man

Because of the quality of young players we have in the backrow the backrow cover is much better than in the 2nd row

Browne was a really useful player for us in recent years and one of the few to actually break the gain line from time to time. That doesn't make any sense. He mustn't be in the good books with Mr. Kiss.

The rumours about Ludik's absence from training and the random disappearance of vdM and Browne does make me think that there is some real dodgy stuff going on behind the scenes. Perhaps they have made their displeasure known about something. Perhaps taking sides with Doak?

There are a number of players who don't rate Kiss and I suspect it is part of the problem

Ludik isn't a rumour it happened

geoff999rugby wrote:There are a number of players who don't rate Kiss and I suspect it is part of the problem

Ludik isn't a rumour it happened

I can only call it a rumour as I have no way of verifying if it is true. But he would have been one of the last players I would expect to miss training, he seems by all accounts to be a decent and reliable person. Which is why there must be something pretty dirty going on in the background.

If Ludiks no show was a one off Id guess that its not relevant and probably an innocent explanation though still warranting disciplinary action, of it was more than a one off then its part of a bigger problem

To be honest Marty, I highly doubt it is an innocent explanation given the circumstances of the past year. When a training session is allegedly cut short because of a fight allegedly breaking out between Doak and Clarke, with players allegedly taking sides...or when regular features in the match day squads suddenly disappear off the radar entirely...or when the players don't even look interested while on the field...ominous interviews that suggest serious tension with Les Kiss...yeah, I doubt it is an unrelated one off, honestly.

Sorry for the overuse of the word "allegedly" but nowadays you never know if such claims will come back to bite you.

My understanding is it was a 1 off.

No idea why though.

And to be fair here guys, when our team is struggling and it appears as though there is a lack of determination and effort as much as skill, we should be totally behind any disciplinary action against a player who effectively says 'f*** it' to training.
Lets be clear - players can get the time off if it's something very important. Nobody would be given disciplinary unless they were being an arse.

Nobody is arguing that they shouldn't receive disciplinary action - but the question must be asked why the players are showing such disinterest on and off the field. It would be different if it was just one player or two. The majority of the team has been putting in lacklustre performances.

geoff999rugby wrote:My understanding is it was a 1 off.

No idea why though.

Strange.

It truely is a strange situation. On the face of it, Kiss' hard line on Ludik, and his intention to train the team hard in the weeks we have no semi or final is commendable. That's the kind of hard nosed approached we would have been hoping for. None of us have any real answers as to whats going on behind the scenes.
Can anyone here tell me for sure they know there is an anti-Kiss brigade within the team? Or are we just making assumptions now?

Did i just read that right?
Roger powered through defenders to score?

Yep great try.

Line out is a shambles though

Good defence for Ruan.

It all kinds makes you feel Wilson has been in a perpetual state of 'best save myself, it's a long season'. And now his time is up, he's actually squeezing out every drop of energy he has.

(He will be pooped for the BaaBaas!)

So are we putting in a decent performance?

Lineout has been crap for both teams.

I don't mind if we lose, at least we've tried.

Is Eddie O'Sullivan attached to any teams at the moment?

Maine man wrote:Is Eddie O'Sullivan attached to any teams at the moment?

Wasn't he in a consultancy role with USA rugby?

Stockdale to bring the magic...

Do both teams know each other's calls or what??

I see the old boys are steeling the show today.

Fantastic conversion by Jackson

Good to see Nelson!

You're right about Treadwell. Him and McCluskey were straight in there when the scrum went down.

Unforgivable mistake by Nelson. Basic basic stuff.

Has to be something with the lineout. Chat elsewhere is Kiss is now having to coach everything as the rest of them have already left. If true, it shows in the set piece.

Awesome kick chase by Reidy. Simply awesome for the amount of work he's put in previously.

Right when i watch the game later will i be left wondering where this performance has been for half the season?

carpet baboon wrote:Right when i watch the game later will i be left wondering where this performance has been for half the season?

Maybe not in that we looked amazing, but looked like a team that cared. A team with 15 players all putting that little bit of extra effort in, especially in defense. Maybe not a fantastic Leinster performance, but on the whole, if we had played like that all season we would be in top four with ease.

Anyone else shed a tear or two??

clivemcl wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:Right when i watch the game later will i be left wondering where this performance has been for half the season?

Maybe not in that we looked amazing, but looked like a team that cared. A team with 15 players all putting that little bit of extra effort in, especially in defense. Maybe not a fantastic Leinster performance, but on the whole, if we had played like that all season we would be in top four with ease.

Anyone else shed a tear or two??

Nope, it was a bit of dust.

Absolute farce he has had to go... He probably would have taken 50k a year.

Still don't get why Nacewa gets a deal and Ruan has to leave his home. Loyalty with the IRFU only goes one way

That was all about showing passion and wanting to put in a performance for the two boys leaving - pity the same commitment wasn't there in other games.

Re is there an anti-Kiss set, what I can confirm is a significant group of players do not rate him as a coach but not aware of players disliking him as a man.
As to Ludik that was a fair few games ago, sure discipline him by not picking him and fining him but don't cast him out in the darkness for ever more which is what appears to have happened.

Just pray Kiss is going upstairs as DofR and Gibbes runs the show, otherwise it is confusion again next year.
Kiss is, effectively, doing everything as the other two are, effectively, on gardening leave.
Lineout shambles reflects that - picking AOC to call the lineouts is a strange one

Twice in that game McCloskey was totally exposed defensively - around 65 mins and 78 mins
He has the turning circle of an oil tanker.
That needs rectifying otherwise his career is going into reverse.

toml wrote:Absolute farce he has had to go... He probably would have taken 50k a year.

Still don't get why Nacewa gets a deal and Ruan has to leave his home. Loyalty with the IRFU only goes one way

Said it himself, it was hard to take given the decisions made elsewhere.
I was going to end my self imposed ban of not going to any Ireland games - 16-17 was the first time I didn't go to a single game in years.
After seeing Ruan off, and yes I was a bit emotional, decided to extend the ban - no games in 17-18, f**k the IRFU

In the professional era there have only been 2 truly world class players in an Ulster shirt and we said goodbye to one today (and I don't mean Wilson or Lutton )
The other was 1F

It may be a long time before we see another

Quick assessment

Successes - Treadwell, Stockdale, Reidy, Browne, Piatau, Andrews, Kane, Timoney, Ludik, Lyttle

Disappointments - Herring, Herbst, Warwick, Black, de Merwe, Olding, Bowe, McCloskey, Ah You, Henry, Henderson
Disappointments (but excepted beforehand) - Wilson, Marshall, Ross

geoff999rugby wrote:That was all about showing passion and wanting to put in a performance for the two boys leaving - pity the same commitment wasn't there in other games.

Re is there an anti-Kiss set, what I can confirm is a significant group of players do not rate him as a coach but not aware of players disliking him as a man.
As to Ludik that was a fair few games ago, sure discipline him by not picking him and fining him but don't cast him out in the darkness for ever more which is what appears to have happened.

Just pray Kiss is going upstairs as DofR and Gibbes runs the show, otherwise it is confusion again next year.
Kiss is, effectively, doing everything as the other two are, effectively, on gardening leave.
Lineout shambles reflects that - picking AOC to call the lineouts is a strange one

Twice in that game McCloskey was totally exposed defensively - around 65 mins and 78 mins
He has the turning circle of an oil tanker.
That needs rectifying otherwise his career is going into reverse.  

How much of this do you think is just the poor tackling technique that our players adopt to try and activate the choke tackle? Hendy gets away with it usually because he is ridiculously strong, but many other times we see players go high and just miss the tackle entirely.

I think teaching the players to tackle normally would be nice, we certainly overdo the choke tackle and it doesn't work half as much as it used to.

geoff999rugby wrote:...

The area that scares me is 2nd row
Treadwell, Henderson starters
AOC, Browne, Diack as backup

So Henderson with Ireland, AOC out with his long term problems
Wouldn't take much for us to have no fit capable lock to put on the bench
Which is why Hamilton is not such a dumb idea if true

We really need to spend the Piatau contact on a dirty niggly gritty bar-steward of an international calibre Second Row. Although given how quickly Herring has went backwards we may need a hooker like that too.

Reidy has really performed again this year.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:That was all about showing passion and wanting to put in a performance for the two boys leaving - pity the same commitment wasn't there in other games.

Re is there an anti-Kiss set, what I can confirm is a significant group of players do not rate him as a coach but not aware of players disliking him as a man.
As to Ludik that was a fair few games ago, sure discipline him by not picking him and fining him but don't cast him out in the darkness for ever more which is what appears to have happened.

Just pray Kiss is going upstairs as DofR and Gibbes runs the show, otherwise it is confusion again next year.
Kiss is, effectively, doing everything as the other two are, effectively, on gardening leave.
Lineout shambles reflects that - picking AOC to call the lineouts is a strange one

Twice in that game McCloskey was totally exposed defensively - around 65 mins and 78 mins
He has the turning circle of an oil tanker.
That needs rectifying otherwise his career is going into reverse.  

How much of this do you think is just the poor tackling technique that our players adopt to try and activate the choke tackle? Hendy gets away with it usually because he is ridiculously strong, but many other times we see players go high and just miss the tackle entirely.

I think teaching the players to tackle normally would be nice, we certainly overdo the choke tackle and it doesn't work half as much as it used to.

None in both those instances McCloskey got nowhere near the opponent because he seemed rooted to the spot