British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

First topic message reminder :

robbo277 wrote:
But as I said, I don't want players to water down their comments. I want to read what the players think, I don't want to read what the press officer tells them to say.

That's fair enough, and I agree with the rest of your comment on this basis. I personally don't particularly care what Mike Brown thinks, especially when it's as obvious as "experienced test player is disappointed to have not been selected for the Lions". I could have told you that without Mike Brown's public statement. The point where it deviated from him merely expressing his disappointment to one where he's put his foot in his mouth is the fact he questioned the coaches' lack of communication to him personally. Even if he's right- and I think he may well be- to publicly bring that into question in the way he has done is antithetical to the whole business of a squad as a unity, a whole above the self.

As for him being a liability, I agree to an extent, but equally he does get in his fair few verbal and physical scraps. He's clearly not a player who's particularly in control of his emotions, a bit like Biggar, in that he wants to plead his case long after it is obvious his efforts are utterly in vain. He's not a catastrophe by any means, but having played with people like him, they can be liabilities. Ticking time bomb may be the incorrect phrase, and overdoing it slightly, but that doesn't negate the point entirely. Either way, it doesn't particularly matter, as I don't think it really affects his performance or mentality, and the players around him, too much: but if it did, it's hard to quantify anyway.

Sadly this is unsurprising. It's going to be about who stays fit to face NZ, tour hasn't even started yet and already the injuries and absentees are racking up.

Ruggerradge agree.

TJ Farrell didn't play well but it's silly to write him off after one poor game. Farrell can pick himself back up.


Farrell wasn't the only Saracens player who needs to up his game - George and Itoje must perform better.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I would have called up Barclay or Robshaw and told Stander he is now exclusively an 8.

I'd say that Stander is now. Haskell has played a bit of 8, but of the two of them I'd rather have Stander at 8 and Haskell on the flank.

Heaslip and Hughes next in line at 8

BamBam wrote:Heaslip and Hughes next in line at 8

Heaslip is injured and Hughes limped off badly at the weekend.

Josh Strauss is back from injury for Scotland but don't think anyone would have expected him getting a callup any time soon.

In fact, thinking about it more, I reckon Stander has to start if Billy is missing, we just lack carriers in the pack without him

POM/Warbs/Faletau looks a bit lightweight in the carrying department

Stander/Warbs/Faletau or POM/Warbs/Stander feels more balanced on paper

RDW_Scotland wrote:

BamBam wrote:Heaslip and Hughes next in line at 8

Heaslip is injured and Hughes limped off badly at the weekend.

Josh Strauss is back from injury for Scotland but don't think anyone would have expected him getting a callup any time soon.

Then we are fecked

There's always the option of an international 8 who just helped his team beat the mighty Saracens

Thomas Waldrom anyone?

He'd make more yards than Moriarty would anyway

So we're looking at Josh Strauss or England, Ireland or Wales' 3rd choice number 8s if another one goes down - who are the 3rd choice for those countries??

This is a massive blow, although I suppose it's better to happen now than a week before the 1st test.

Stander is clearly exclusively an 8 now, and I suspect we'll see Moriarty there as well. I think Faletau is now a certainty for the 1st Test if he can stay fit.

Clifford is probably the 3rd choice england 8 but injured. So Beaumont or Morgan.

Is there not an uncapped 8 playing in Super Rugby who qualfies for the Lions through a grandparent?

BamBam wrote:Yeah let Stander and Faletau fight it out for 8, its Stander's best position anyway

POM is surely the favourite to start at 6 now

Wonder how many back row injuries it would actually take for Robshaw to get a call, hopefully we don't find out

This is Gatland we're talking about it'll probably be Warburton at 6 and Tipuric at 7

marty2086 wrote:

BamBam wrote:Yeah let Stander and Faletau fight it out for 8, its Stander's best position anyway

POM is surely the favourite to start at 6 now

Wonder how many back row injuries it would actually take for Robshaw to get a call, hopefully we don't find out

This is Gatland we're talking about it'll probably be Warburton at 6 and Tipuric at 7

Tipuric's self preservation was at parody levels on Saturday night.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

BamBam wrote:Yeah let Stander and Faletau fight it out for 8, its Stander's best position anyway

POM is surely the favourite to start at 6 now

Wonder how many back row injuries it would actually take for Robshaw to get a call, hopefully we don't find out

This is Gatland we're talking about it'll probably be Warburton at 6 and Tipuric at 7

Tipuric's self preservation was at parody levels on Saturday night.

I'm surprised he didn't get 'injured' before the game

Lee Byrne predicted a few weeks back you'd get some of the Welsh Lions getting injured and missing club games but being ready for the Lions

Id look at Waldrom to be honest, consistently a top performer for Exeter and to be honest looks fitter now than he did a few years ago.

Perfect fit for the midweek squad that would give his all.

Not sure why people think POM, Warburton and Faletau would be "lightweight". Neither of them are Billy Vunipola but POM/Faletau are very powerful around the park and could be better suited to the fast pace of the game. Both frequently beat defenders.

NZ have plenty of better ball carriers than Read at their disposal, but he offers more than just ball carrying.

TightHEAD wrote:Id look at Waldrom to be honest, consistently a top performer for Exeter and to be honest looks fitter now than he did a few years ago.

Perfect fit for the midweek squad that would give his all.

Not a bad call at all. He's astonishingly consistent.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Id look at Waldrom to be honest, consistently a top performer for Exeter and to be honest looks fitter now than he did a few years ago.

Perfect fit for the midweek squad that would give his all.

Not a bad call at all. He's astonishingly consistent.

As a mid week player he'd be more effective than someone like Moriarty.

Worryingly the more that some of the better backrowers get injured, the more likely Moriarty will feature vs NZ.

Billy is a big blow but the Lions should still be competitive with the likes of Stander and Faletau.

It's when Moriarty is promoted to starter that the Lions will be in trouble.

I still think not taking Watson in the backrow was an error. He may not be the wrecking machine that Billy V or Stander can be but he almost always gets across the gain line and whilst carrying like a flailing octopus he drags in 2 or 3 defenders with him.

No issue with Moriaty starting in a balanced backrow but please not at 8.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I still think not taking Watson in the backrow was an error. He may not be the wrecking machine that Billy V or Stander can be but he almost always gets across the gain line and whilst carrying like a flailing octopus he drags in 2 or 3 defenders with him.

Well you know I'd rather take him than Moriarty and I'd probably take Watson instead of Haskell who I think has had a dip in form.

Not as if realistically Haskell would be a 8.

Now Lions are stuck with 1 specialist 8 in Faletau. I know Stander can play there too but he's not a specialist 8.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:No issue with Moriaty starting in a balanced backrow but please not at 8.

Nail on the head there, Stander can struggle to break the gain line when he is the only big ball carrier in the team as he gets 2 or 3 defenders on him quickly. Its the same with most ball carriers

Many Ireland fans reckon Stander is an 8 who is being played out of position at 6 ..

beshocked wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I still think not taking Watson in the backrow was an error. He may not be the wrecking machine that Billy V or Stander can be but he almost always gets across the gain line and whilst carrying like a flailing octopus he drags in 2 or 3 defenders with him.

Well you know I'd rather take him than Moriarty and I'd probably take Watson instead of Haskell who I think has had a dip in form.

Not as if realistically Haskell would be a 8.

Now Lions are stuck with 1 specialist 8 in Faletau. I know Stander can play there too but he's not a specialist 8.

He actually is a specialist 8. Only Schmidt plays him at 6...

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Not sure why people think POM, Warburton and Faletau would be "lightweight". Neither of them are Billy Vunipola but POM/Faletau are very powerful around the park and could be better suited to the fast pace of the game. Both frequently beat defenders.

NZ have plenty of better ball carriers than Read at their disposal, but he offers more than just ball carrying.

It's 35kg down on the England backrow of Robshaw, Haskell, Vunipola for example.

eirebilly wrote:

beshocked wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I still think not taking Watson in the backrow was an error. He may not be the wrecking machine that Billy V or Stander can be but he almost always gets across the gain line and whilst carrying like a flailing octopus he drags in 2 or 3 defenders with him.

Well you know I'd rather take him than Moriarty and I'd probably take Watson instead of Haskell who I think has had a dip in form.

Not as if realistically Haskell would be a 8.

Now Lions are stuck with 1 specialist 8 in Faletau. I know Stander can play there too but he's not a specialist 8.

He actually is a specialist 8. Only Schmidt plays him at 6...

He's played quite a few games at 6 for Munster too has he not?

Scottrf wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Not sure why people think POM, Warburton and Faletau would be "lightweight". Neither of them are Billy Vunipola but POM/Faletau are very powerful around the park and could be better suited to the fast pace of the game. Both frequently beat defenders.

NZ have plenty of better ball carriers than Read at their disposal, but he offers more than just ball carrying.

It's 35kg down on the England backrow of Robshaw, Haskell, Vunipola for example.

That means its lighter not lightweight, size also doesn't guarantee power or efficiency

beshocked wrote: I know Stander can play there too but he's not a specialist 8.

Having already been called out on this myself ...

Stander has played the vast majority of his career rugby at 8. Hes an 8 who can cover flanker.
If youre saying that makes him not a specilaist then should we leave Itoje out because hes not a specialist lock?
His versatlity makes him a better bench option than an out and out 8.

Yes the Lions do have an issue if/when Faletau gets injured but that wouldve been the case at pretty much any position if you take your first two choices out.
And when Faletau does get injured then they can call up specialist cover.

marty2086 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Not sure why people think POM, Warburton and Faletau would be "lightweight". Neither of them are Billy Vunipola but POM/Faletau are very powerful around the park and could be better suited to the fast pace of the game. Both frequently beat defenders.

NZ have plenty of better ball carriers than Read at their disposal, but he offers more than just ball carrying.

It's 35kg down on the England backrow of Robshaw, Haskell, Vunipola for example.

That means its lighter not lightweight, size also doesn't guarantee power or efficiency

Correct, but as the game wears on it's more tiring to have to put down physically larger men. 

Back row is one non-Welsh player lighter so we'll have to see how Gatland fills the ball carrying role. 

In terms of quality of player, it will probably be where Faletau, Stander or O'Brien fit best with Warbuton.

George Carlin wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Not sure why people think POM, Warburton and Faletau would be "lightweight". Neither of them are Billy Vunipola but POM/Faletau are very powerful around the park and could be better suited to the fast pace of the game. Both frequently beat defenders.

NZ have plenty of better ball carriers than Read at their disposal, but he offers more than just ball carrying.

It's 35kg down on the England backrow of Robshaw, Haskell, Vunipola for example.

That means its lighter not lightweight, size also doesn't guarantee power or efficiency

Correct, but as the game wears on it's more tiring to have to put down physically larger men. 

Back row is one non-Welsh player lighter so we'll have to see how Gatland fills the ball carrying role. 

In terms of quality of player, it will probably be where Faletau, Stander or O'Brien fit best with Warbuton.

George that's true for anyone, like I said its about efficiency if you are relying on bulk to try and break through the ABs you'll drain quickly if you use some variation you'll probably get more success and last longer

Gooseberry Sorry but that's a load of codswallop.

Really? So why was his first cap at 6? His position vs NZ in their victory at 6. When scoring his hattrick vs Italy at 6.

Vs Wales this year at 6.

Only vs England did he start at 8 because Heaslip was injured.

Tour of SA - Stander played 6.

Think you'll find most his caps if not all have been at 6.

He's a 6 who can cover 8 not the other way round.

I am talking about internationals by the way.

Most of Itoje's caps have been at lock so yes he's clearly a lock.

My point is Stander is still unproven at 8 mostly at international level.

beshocked wrote:Gooseberry   Sorry but that's a load of codswallop.

Really? So why was his first cap at 6? His position vs NZ in their victory at 6. When scoring his hattrick vs Italy at 6.

Vs Wales this year at 6.

Only vs England did he start at 8 because Heaslip was injured.

Tour of SA - Stander played 6.

Think you'll find most his caps if not all have been at 6.

He's a 6 who can cover 8 not the other way round.

I am talking about internationals by the way.

Most of Itoje's caps have been at lock so yes he's clearly a lock.

My point is Stander is still unproven at 8 mostly at international level.

Forget the number on his back, watch him play, you really think he's a 6?

Stander is an 8 who plays 6. He's only not playing there as they have Heaslip but I imagine that will change over the next few years.

Farrell has played 12 for the last few years for England but does this make not a 10? Of course not.

Scottrf wrote:

beshocked wrote:Gooseberry   Sorry but that's a load of codswallop.

Really? So why was his first cap at 6? His position vs NZ in their victory at 6. When scoring his hattrick vs Italy at 6.

Vs Wales this year at 6.

Only vs England did he start at 8 because Heaslip was injured.

Tour of SA - Stander played 6.

Think you'll find most his caps if not all have been at 6.

He's a 6 who can cover 8 not the other way round.

I am talking about internationals by the way.

Most of Itoje's caps have been at lock so yes he's clearly a lock.

My point is Stander is still unproven at 8 mostly at international level.

Forget the number on his back, watch him play, you really think he's a 6?

Well he's obviously not no 8 because that's generally Heaslip. Yes I think he's a flanker, that's the position he plays for Ireland except for when Heaslip is injured.

Sgt Pooly perhaps it's difficult for you to understand but Farrell has played many games at 10. He's also beaten the ABs at 10. Not as if he's had 1 or 2 games at either 10 or 12.

Stander has played how many games for Ireland at 8? 1? 2?

I find it odd you call someone an 8 when they have only played once or twice at 8 for Ireland whilst playing most of their rugby at 6.

Like calling Mauro Bergamasco a 9 because he played 1 game or Monye at full back because he played 1 game....

His primary position for Ireland has been 6.

Can some Munster/Ireland fans please head this off and correct BS before this is dragged out for the next 3 days/weeks/months

beshocked wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

beshocked wrote:Gooseberry   Sorry but that's a load of codswallop.

Really? So why was his first cap at 6? His position vs NZ in their victory at 6. When scoring his hattrick vs Italy at 6.

Vs Wales this year at 6.

Only vs England did he start at 8 because Heaslip was injured.

Tour of SA - Stander played 6.

Think you'll find most his caps if not all have been at 6.

He's a 6 who can cover 8 not the other way round.

I am talking about internationals by the way.

Most of Itoje's caps have been at lock so yes he's clearly a lock.

My point is Stander is still unproven at 8 mostly at international level.

Forget the number on his back, watch him play, you really think he's a 6?

Well he's obviously not no 8 because that's generally Heaslip. Yes I think he's a flanker, that's the position he plays for Ireland except for when Heaslip is injured.

He plays 6 because he has that versatility and Heaslip doesn't its really not that complicated

So Farrell isn't a fly half.

No 7&1/2 wrote:So Farrell isn't a fly half.

Obviously not because he plays at 12 thems the rules

Stander plays at 6 for Ireland because Schmidt likes to play Heaslip at 8 and because POM had a long term injury. CJ is an 8 that can cover 6 very well, his versatility is a major asset for Munster and Ireland.

If POM was fit then I am sure that CJ would be on the bench with Heaslip at 8 for Ireland.

I see Stander as a 6. Although he can probably play 8 just as well. Lots of back row players can play in more than one position in the back row. SOB has played 6, 7 and 8 for example.

I'll explain it slowly no 7 & 1/2.

Farrell has played numerous games at 10 for England. Numerous games at 12 for England.

He's a proven 10/12 at international level. He has sufficient experience in both positions.

Stander on the other hand has played the vast majority of his Ireland caps at 6 yet he's supposedly an 8 at international level despite playing only 1 or 2 games?

My initial point was Stander is not a specialist 8 which he clearly isn't if most of his caps at 6


I can't really explain it more succinctly to be honest.

Post edited by RDW - no need for the petty names

Stander is a number 8 and the Irish back row looks far better and balanced when he's there with POM and SOB on the flanks.

Beshocked you are bit a bit silly yourself. Stander has always as far as I know played number 8 in club/provincial rugby etc. In his career to date that has been his specialist position.

He has played most his games for Ireland at 6 but like a lot of back row forwards he can slot in at more than one position.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Stander is a number 8 and the Irish back row looks far better and balanced when he's there with POM and SOB on the flanks.

Not sure Id agree with that. That wasnt out back row for either our most recent tests v NZ and in both tests our backrow out muscled NZ.

beshocked wrote:I'll explain it slowly no 7 & 1/2.

Farrell has played numerous games at 10 for England. Numerous games at 12 for England.

He's a proven 10/12 at international level. He has sufficient experience in both positions.

Stander on the other hand has played the vast majority of his Ireland caps at 6 yet he's supposedly an 8 at international level despite playing only 1 or 2 games?

My initial point was Stander is not a specialist 8 which he clearly isn't if most of his caps at 6


I can't really explain it more succinctly to be honest.

So it takes a certain number of games to qualify as a specialist 8? If Farrells caps keep coming at 12 and he doesn't play at 10 for a few years does he lose his qualifications as a specialist 10? What way does this work?

That's why Ireland have only picked Stander at 8 when Heaslip has been injured... as cover....

Bergamasco is a 9 based on your logic, same with Monye being a full back.

So Schmidt has had Stander acting as cover for a couple of years by your logic.....

Was cover when he got his hattrick vs Ireland and when beating the ABs. Can't say I've ever heard of a player covering for such a long time....

He's a specialist 8 honest... despite barely playing there for Ireland......


Marty a player needs to prove themselves in a different position yes. Not just 1 game or 2. Doesn't take 1 game to start claiming to be a specialist!

Well no obviously not because Farrell will have still played numerous games as a 10. Not 1 or 2.

BamBam wrote:Can some Munster/Ireland fans please head this off and correct BS before this is dragged out for the next 3 days/weeks/months

Good luck with that

Can we just agree that Stander is infact a fly half becasue thats where he played his first games of rugby?

Let me explaint this you beshocked.

CJ Stander is in direct competition with Heaslip as number 8 for Ireland. Heaslip being one of the best 8's Ireland has ever produced. When he made his international debut, it was at 6 because POM was injured. He is that good that Schmidt trusted him to cover POM and he did not let anyone down there.

He plays 8 for Munster but will cover 6 if there are injuries.

As I said, I firmly believe that Schmidt would select POM over Stander at 6 leaving Stander to the bench (if Heaslip is fit).

Just because you have only seen him at 6 does not mean that you are correct and may I suggest that you refrain from personal attacks if people do not agree with your arguments, it does not help your cause...

beshocked wrote: That's why Ireland have only picked Stander at 8 when Heaslip has been injured... as cover....

Bergamasco is a 9 based on your logic, same with Monye being a full back.

So Schmidt has had Stander acting as cover for a couple of years by your logic.....

Was cover when he got his hattrick vs Ireland and when beating the ABs. Can't say I've ever heard of a player covering for such a long time....

He's a specialist 8 honest... despite barely playing there for Ireland......


Marty a player needs to prove themselves in a different position yes. Not just 1 game or 2. Doesn't take 1 game to start claiming to be a specialist!

Earlier you were disregarding Marland Yarde international career because his club record was poor and now you're saying the complete opposite.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Beshocked you are bit a bit silly yourself. Stander has always as far as I know played number 8 in club/provincial rugby etc. In his career to date that has been his specialist position.

He has played most his games for Ireland at 6 but like a lot of back row forwards he can slot in at more than one position.

Same with Liam Williams. He's played more on the wing for Wales than he has at full back, but that doesn't mean he's not a full back.