England vs Samoa - 25th November

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England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by LondonTiger on Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:36 pm

First topic message reminder :

Details

Date: Saturday 25th November
Time: 14:30 GMT
Location: Twickenham Stadium, Twickenham, Surrey
TV: Sky Sports
Radio: R5L


Officials

Referee: Andrew Brace (Ireland)
Assistant 1: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant 2: Wayne Davies (Wales)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)



Head to Head

7 Played 7
7 Won 0
0 Drawn 0
244 Total Points 100
35 Average Score 14



Recent Form

22nd Nov 2014 Twickenham Eng 28 - Samoa 9
20th Nov 2010 Twickenham Eng 26 - Samoa 13


Teams

ENGLAND

England team to play Samoa

15 Mike Brown (Harlequins 63 caps), 14 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers 28 caps), 13 Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs 9 caps), 12 Alex Lozowski (Saracens 3 caps), 11 Elliot Daly (Wasps 15 caps), 10 George Ford (Leicester Tigers 39 caps) co-captain, 9 Danny Care (Harlequins 75 caps), 1 Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers 4 caps), 2 Jamie George (Saracens 19 caps), 3 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers 76 caps), 4 Joe Launchbury (Wasps 46 caps), 5 Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby 5 caps), 6 Maro Itoje (Saracens 13 caps), 7 Chris Robshaw (Harlequins 58 caps) co-captain, 8 Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs 2 caps).

Finishers

16 Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints 88 caps), 17 Joe Marler (Harlequins 52 caps), 18 Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs 4 caps), 19 Nick Isiekwe (Saracens 1 cap), 20 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints 60 caps), 21 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers 72 caps), 22 Piers Francis (Northampton Saints 2 caps), 23 Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby 3 caps).




Samoa


15-Ah See Tuala, 14-Paul Perez, 13-Kieron Fonotia, 12-Alapati Leiua, 11-David Lemi, 10-Tim Nanai-Williams, 9-Dwayne Polataivao, 8-Jack Lam, 7-TJ Ioane, 6-Piula Fa'asalele, 5-Chris Vui (captain), 4-Josh Tyrell, 3-Donald Brighouse, 2-Motu Matu´u, 1-Jordan Lay.

Replacements: 16-Manu Leiataua, 17-James Lay, 18-Hisa Sasagi, 19-Fa'atiga Lemalu, 20-Ofisa Treviranus, 21-Melani Matavao, 22-Reynold Lee-Lo, 23-JJ Taulagi




Last edited by LondonTiger on Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:08 am; edited 2 times in total

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by LondonTiger on Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:08 am

Aye Pooly, just read that George may start with Ford or Robshaw as skipper. After all the things EJ said back in 2015, would be funny if Robshaw were to wear 7 and the armband.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by kingelderfield on Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:19 am

I wonder how BV and MT are feeling having spoken out on the funding support of the Island nations? They will certainly have realised how this and their ancestry is a real point of difference.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by LondonTiger on Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:47 am

Dan Cole on BBC wrote:Sharing match fees with Samoa is not a decision that should have to be made by England's players, says prop Dan Cole.

A senior England players' group announced on Wednesday they would not be gifting money to the Samoans before their Test at Twickenham on Saturday. With their union in financial strife, Samoa's players are currently unsure if they will be paid this autumn.

"The whole of the rugby world has to take an interest in it. It's above this game on the weekend," Cole said.
Speaking to BBC Radio 5 live, he added: "You need to go above players, you need to go to the unions, you need to go to World Rugby, and you need to address it at that level rather than just making this an England versus Samoa issue.
"The political side of things, the contracts that are signed, are negotiated away from our field.
"Are you going to ask every union: Scotland, Australia, New Zealand, Wales? You need to get everyone together - it's not just an England campaign."


But regardless of the exact situation in Samoa, the financial disparity between the two sides this weekend is stark, with an England player able to make about £22,000 per match, including training fees and image rights.

However, Cole, a respected and experienced member of the England squad with 76 caps, believes distributing payments might set a difficult precedent.

"I think it's difficult to start paying your opposition because of the issues that it might create further down the line with future teams, but also the dynamics of being caught in those ethics," Cole added.
"I think the issue is above us in regards to World Rugby and the unions. The Samoan players, yes, should probably get paid more [for] the game, but that has to come from funding from elsewhere."

When asked whether there was a bigger picture to consider, Cole answered: "Correct, as opposed to one game. Otherwise every game you sort of get into the ethics of these things, and it's a complicated situation that is above playing a game of rugby.

"You want a strong global game, you want people representing their countries, and you want the international game to be strong across the board, because a rising tide floats all boats.
"That's important. You want the game to be strong across the board, because that's what rugby is about moving forward, and I am sure there are discussions at a higher level than mine about how to do that."

However, the Leicester player said he understands if people were to make an argument that England's players were taking a selfish stance.

"I can see an argument for it, but I think we as players play the game, we sign our contracts, and it's not for us to decide who we play or how much other people get paid," he said.
'England players in fortunate position'

Cole says he thinks "every day" about the fortunate position him and his England team-mates find themselves in with regards to money and facilities.

"We understand that, and we know this doesn't last forever, and we are fortunate to play in England which has the best support going and a great club system."

The notion England's players may donate some of their money to Samoa was suggested by Mako Vunipola, but Cole says his fellow prop is in line with the rest of his team-mates.

"He has [been involved]. I don't know whether he was quoted first time round, but he has had his view, he has said that, and I think he supports the team's decision," said Cole.


Extra Cole quote wrote:"The decision was made along the ethics of paying an opposition to play against you and the future issues that might create," Leicester prop Cole said. "It was not so much about opposition asking for pay, but the potential for the scenario of 'we've paid you before, now you owe us a favour'.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by LondonTiger on Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:57 am

Team named in 3 minutes Very Happy

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by TightHEAD on Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:58 am

England doing the right thing by not giving away their match fees.

Did Scotland give anything btw?
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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by TightHEAD on Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:58 am

England team to play Samoa

15 Mike Brown (Harlequins 63 caps),
14 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers 28 caps),
13 Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs 9 caps),
12 Alex Lozowski (Saracens 3 caps),
11 Elliot Daly (Wasps 15 caps),
10 George Ford (Leicester Tigers 39 caps) co-captain,
9 Danny Care (Harlequins 75 caps),
1 Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers 4 caps),
2 Jamie George (Saracens 19 caps),
3 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers 76 caps),
4 Joe Launchbury (Wasps 46 caps),
5 Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby 5 caps),
6 Maro Itoje (Saracens 13 caps),
7 Chris Robshaw (Harlequins 58 caps) co-captain,
8 Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs 2 caps).


Finishers
16 Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints 88 caps), 17 Joe Marler (Harlequins 52 caps), 18 Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs 4 caps), 19 Nick Isiekwe (Saracens 1 cap), 20 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints 60 caps), 21 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers 72 caps), 22 Piers Francis (Northampton Saints 2 caps), 23 Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby 3 caps).
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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by BamBam on Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:01 am

JAMIE GEORGE!!!!!!!

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by cascough on Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:01 am

Never heard of him...

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by TightHEAD on Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:05 am

Farrell must be a pleasant person to be around with this Morning?
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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:05 am

Should see a few tries this game.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by LondonTiger on Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:05 am

co-captains!!

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by SecretFly on Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:06 am

Eddie taking no chances with this game! The poor Samoans are going to be obliter.... oblitt.... killed off quickly by being boiled alive slowly..

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by LionsV2 on Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:09 am

I didn't think I'd see the day when we had five locks in the matchday 23!

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by TightHEAD on Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:10 am

LondonTiger wrote:co-captains!!

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:11 am

Co captains reflecting the qst 2 choices are rested then. Less of captains than Launchbury and Itoje for me but in an uber competitive position I suppose it makes sense.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by Scottrf on Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:15 am

Can co-captains both speak to the ref? Seems weird, name 15 co-captains and never get warnings about backchat.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by SecretFly on Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:19 am

Even Captains are warned not to backchat.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:21 am

I've completely lost faith with EJ's selection of George to start. I imagine the old "He's been great in training etc etc" will come out.

Is this really the type of game we should be testing out a player who's never started??? Obviously EJ sees George as some form of deity!

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by beshocked on Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:22 am

Mixed feelings. It should be a joyous situation that George has been selected to start but marred by Farrell and Mako being wasted as waterboys.

Mccall won't be happy with that.

Don't like some of the other selections either.

2nd row looks badly balanced. Piers Francis - I wouldn't have had him near the squad.

Would have rested Lawes.


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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:24 am

You surprise me. You really do. So apart from vunipola isiekwe and Farrell not starting it's ok?


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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by LondonTiger on Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:24 am

Good to see Mako getting a much needed rest. England and Saracens were at risk of flogging him into the ground. Shame injuries meant Lawes has to be on the bench.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by Scottrf on Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:24 am

beshocked wrote:2nd row looks badly balanced. Piers Francis - I wouldn't have had him near the squad.

I doubt he'll play in the 2nd row to be honest.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:32 am

Mercer can't be that far away from a serious option I don't think. Still finding his feet with consistent rugby he's getting so very understandable.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by beshocked on Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:35 am

Scottrf wrote:
beshocked wrote:2nd row looks badly balanced. Piers Francis - I wouldn't have had him near the squad.

I doubt he'll play in the 2nd row to be honest.

I'd hope not but I still wouldn't have in the 23.


no 7 & 1/2 it's a bit disappointing. Could be worse though.

Londontiger Lawes did not need to be on the bench. Look at the amount of locks in the squad!

Mako is being wasted now - neither playing for club or country. You might not see it as a waste but I do.

Also you are someone who benefits from Mako being unavailable for Saracens because Leicester are trying to chase down Saracens.

A loss vs Exeter would help Leicester.


You are not impartial because you benefit.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by Scottrf on Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:38 am

Couldn't he still play Sunday after being waterboy? I'm sure Itoje has done that.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by cascough on Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:39 am

beshocked wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
beshocked wrote:2nd row looks badly balanced. Piers Francis - I wouldn't have had him near the squad.

I doubt he'll play in the 2nd row to be honest.

I'd hope not but I still wouldn't have in the 23.


no 7 & 1/2 it's a bit disappointing. Could be worse though.

Londontiger Lawes did not need to be on the bench. Look at the amount of locks in the squad!

Mako is being wasted now - neither playing for club or country. You might not see it as a waste but I do.

Also you are someone who benefits from Mako being unavailable for Saracens because Leicester are trying to chase down Saracens.

A loss vs Exeter would help Leicester.


You are not impartial because you benefit.

He's covering back row.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:40 am

England games take precedent overs clubs on international weekends. The deal is pretty good for clubs at the moment as well. Could be better but could be worse. Lawes is covering back row not lock.

Will be interesting to see how the fly half and midfield works if and when ford goes off. Lozowski to 10 francis to 12?

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by Scottrf on Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:40 am

2 back row players in the 23 is pretty crazy if we count Lawes and Itoje as locks.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:49 am

Underhill curry vunipola Hughes Clifford out. Guess it gets down to an argument of is it worth bothering looking at someone you won't pick when those guys are fit or just have a look at how able Itoje and Lawes are to cover. Mercer coming through as well.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by beshocked on Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:52 am

Lawes isn't a backrow.

scottrf agreed it is crazy.


Lack of depth in backrow and centre is really quite shocking for a country like England.

Can we seriously not develop some top class backrowers and centres?

Even the likes of Hughes,Billy,T'eo and Manu aren't strictly English - in the sense they all weren't born here.

Even Underhill wasn't born in England.....

10s and locks - sure we can develop a bucket load of them.... but centre and backrow...... it's crazy.


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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:54 am

He's covering there this weekend. Plays 6 for northampton and has said it's his preferred position. As above with those players out would you prefer they throw a cap to a guy. not in the coaches' plans?

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by beshocked on Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:02 am

no 7 & 1/2 I blocked you because you simply disagree with practically everything I say, even if secretly you agree.

The coach needs to not try to plug the gap with 2nd rowers who might struggle to convert into a backrow position.


Lawes has played 6 yes but it's not exactly the position he's excelled in the most plus it doesn't mean he can cover 7 or 8.


Itoje is a good player but even he's going to struggle covering at 7 or 8.

You lose something if you basically stack your team with locks and 10s.

There's advantages to having specialists. Especially at centre there is no hard runner.

In the backrow, there's a real lack of balance.

It's not a holy trinity situation - it's a mess.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:08 am

I'll voice an opinion I have but Ive never pretended.to have one, there's no point. I'm offering up a reason I think jones has gone with having Lawes as cover for the back row. There's a list of players out injured. I suppose he could have recalled haskell after Hughes was injured. Was it decided on Tuesday he couldn't make the game though so you're bringing someone in who is not going to be in your plans for a one off game who also hasn't trained with squad. Or you throw the ball to Lawes to cover this game. Or as I said you give mercer a chance. Don't think he'd do us badly but he's not ready to stake a major claim in the squad just yet for me.

Now you could consider those points and offer a response?

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by BamBam on Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:09 am

Wasn't everyone in agreement that the Lions needed some rest? Farrell/Itoje/Mako have had a game off each, is it suddenly an issue because they could have played for Saracens instead that week?

Lawes is another who needed the rest but I can see why he's included given the injuries. Hopefully he'll only be a late sub, or stay on the bench completely

I would wager that LT is able to look past any potential benefit to Leicester. I'm not so sure you can look past anything that is a benefit/risk for Saracens, beshocked

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by Mad for Chelsea on Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:10 am

I'm quite happy with that TBH. Pleased that Genge and George get a chance to see what they can do from the start. Also pleased to see Slade given a go in his more familiar position.

The backrow debate is an interesting one. As No 7 & 1/2 says we're missing a rather large number of options there: Underhill, Curry, Vunipola, Hughes and Clifford all out from the original squad. With that in mind is it worth Jones looking at a new player who probably won't feature in his plans going forward? Maybe not. Having said that I do wonder whether it would have been worth plumping for say Mark Wilson, who did well in Argentina. Maybe not a long term solution, or indeed likely to be much more than a stopgap, but someone who would do the job very competently. Right now, an injury to Simmonds leaves us with a backrow of Lawes, Itoje and Robshaw, which doesn't fill me with great confidence.

Still, Samoa lost to Romania last time, and despite scoring some tries against a lacklustre Scottish defence they shipped rather a lot too, so I don't expect England to have too much trouble here.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by Scottrf on Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:13 am

I think we would stand a chance if the back row was Ben Youngs, Rokodoguni and Francis for the second half to be honest.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by beshocked on Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:16 am

Where's the danger in having someone like Mercer as cover instead? An actual backrower?

That's my point though - we both believe Mercer should probably cover but you disagree just for the sake of it.

You seem to disagree with me just to get a reaction. It would be refreshing if you said you know what - yes I agree, Jones should probably do that but he hasn't.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by LondonTiger on Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:19 am

Eddie Jones only selected five back rowers (ignoring Mercer who was an apprentice) in the original big squad along with six second rows. Of itself this suggests he was at some point planning to start with a lock in the back row. Then throw in that all three injured players are back rowers and we have this interesting scenario.

Now personally I would have liked Mercer to be upgraded to full squad member and perhaps feature in this squad. I wonder if Jones just has not seen enough from him across the training weeks?

I am also a touch surprised that no additional back rower was called up - but then who would it be?

Exeter - Don Armand, but he has been looked at and perhaps deemed as not good enough.
Saracens - Wray is injured now.
Leicester - Mike Williams and Will Evans have been around teh squad last season but some way down the list now.
Bath - No-one other than those already mentioned
Gloucester - Some promising young lads, but unfair to throw them in when not having trained with the squad
Wasps - Haskell is not playing well enough, other England options injured too often
Quins - Clifford just back from injury
Saints - Harrison deemed not good enough, Wood unlikely to be called up again.
Falcons - Mark Wilson a good shout for replacing an injured Robshaw, but CR is still fit.
Sale - Ben Curry just back from injury


It is easy to be critical of a selection, especially when not offering up alternatives.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:20 am

But what I actually said is that mercer is probably a bit green and I don't think he's ready to hold down a regular place. But yes he could have gone with mercer. Dot think Lawes covering is criminal though or playing Itoje there. Jones has said mercer and smith weren't quite ready also.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by beshocked on Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:31 am

Londontiger Mercer is the alternative. We agree on this yet you spin this into disagreement.

no 7 & 1/2 If Lawes was fresh it could be more understandable but he needs a rest.

Itoje had a rest.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:34 am

Tbf the original comment was aimed at the fact that there's plenty of locks in the squad not about mercer. Then a complaint that there isn't enough back rows in England. And about players born outside england.

Would you start mercer then? Quality head.on his shoulders. Perhaps.physically.not there but he'll bulk up in the next year I'd imagine. You'd still be left with Itoje covering back row from the bench though.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by LondonTiger on Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:40 am

Mercer is AN alternative. One that has started just 10 matches in AP or ECC and one that Jones has looked at and decided is not ready. I may be disappointed, but I am not in a position to say he is wrong.

It should be obvious to all that having named the squad he did with more locks than back rowers and all of them called "Back 5" that a lineup similar to this would happen at least once.


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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by beshocked on Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:40 am

Bambam

Farrell and Itoje have already had a rest.

Well it's a different scenario - Leicester aren't playing a top of the table clash.

Should beat Worcester with or without Genge. Oh and of course Genge is starting so Leicester don't have 2 waterboys.

You have a situation that Farrell and Mako have to be waterboys instead of playing in a top of table clash.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by screamingaddabs on Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:42 am

A thought to consider for those complaining about England players lack of availability for their clubs - The clubs have an agreement with the RFU regarding player availability with quite a large amount of cash exchanging hands also. I don't therefore think clubs can be too annoyed that their players are not available to them even if they are not playing.

Additionally, if your player is unavailable but not playing you still get cash for that player but they can't get injured...
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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by LondonTiger on Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:45 am

screamingaddabs wrote:A thought to consider for those complaining about England players lack of availability for their clubs - The clubs have an agreement with the RFU regarding player availability with quite a large amount of cash exchanging hands also.  I don't therefore think clubs can be too annoyed that their players are not available to them even if they are not playing.  

Additionally, if your player is unavailable but not playing you still get cash for that player but they can't get injured...

I agree 100%.

If your players are in the tournament squad you have to assume they will be unavailable for your club for the entire time. No point whining about the unavailability though you can use it to explain a below par performance.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by beshocked on Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:48 am

The extra cash doesn't matter that much when you factor in the importance of a top table clash.

Not even as if player X is playing for England, they are being wasted as a waterboy.

Oh great... they can't get injured... still means they miss a huge game.

And no, it is not a honour to hold tackle bags when it means you miss out on one of the biggest games of the season.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by LondonTiger on Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:50 am

As to the team.

More changes than I would have liked, but I guess this is the ideal match for trying new things:

Genge - first start in a capped match at Twickenham
George - First start for England
Ewels - first start in a capped match at Twickenham
Itoje - first start for England genuinely in back row (rather than wearing 6 but packing at 5 last season)
Simmonds - First start
Lozowski - first start in a capped match at Twickenham
Slade - first start in a capped match wearing 13 at Twickenham


In between all that you have the experience of Cole, Launchbury, Robshaw, Care, Ford and Brown to help the changes settle in.

Sure people may argue there is no big ball carrier in the backs - but again I ask who could that be?

LondonTiger

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by Scottrf on Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:53 am

beshocked wrote:The extra cash doesn't matter that much when you factor in the importance of a top table clash.

Or if you cheat the financial rules with a sugar daddy.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:56 am

Would you start mercer then beshocked. And have another lock cover back row instead?

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by beshocked on Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:57 am

Mercer as cover. Would have rested Lawes.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

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