The Ashes: 5th Test, Sydney

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The Ashes: 5th Test, Sydney

Post by Pal Joey on Tue 02 Jan 2018, 10:01 pm

First topic message reminder :

5th Test Sydney, January 4-8, 2017 (23:30 GMT Jan 3)

Australia:
Bancroft, Warner, Khawaja, Smith *, S Marsh, M Marsh, Paine †, Starc, Cummins, Lyon, Hazelwood

England:
Cook, Stoneman, Vince, Root *, Malan, Bairstow †, Ali, Curran, Broad, Crane, Anderson



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Re: The Ashes: 5th Test, Sydney

Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 6:32 am

England 178 for 3. Root 52 Malan 36. Partnership now 83.
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Re: The Ashes: 5th Test, Sydney

Post by alfie on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 6:37 am

Malan having some good fortune ...edge just evades Smith at slip after escaping that run out. He's been pretty careful today by the look of things : I always feel he'd like to play a more aggressive hand but is holding himself in check for the sake of the team - which is often precariously placed when he arrives at the crease. But I do think he has a future ; more so than Vince and Stoneman on present form ?


Good to see Khawaja is OK ...I had a real Simon Jones flashback as I got home just in time to see that.
Actually the way they all throw themselves around these days it is remarkable how mercifully rare serious injuries of that type are...

179/3 represents a reasonable recovery , I'd say. Need Root to go on this time though.

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Re: The Ashes: 5th Test, Sydney

Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 6:41 am

England just beginning to haul themselves back into this on.182 for 3. Root 56 Malan 36. Partnership of 87.
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Re: The Ashes: 5th Test, Sydney

Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 6:45 am

Alfie I think Malan is just mentally tougher than Stoneman and Vince. They have concentration lapses/moments of rashness hence they fail to score really big scores.
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Re: The Ashes: 5th Test, Sydney

Post by alfie on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 7:01 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:Alfie I think Malan is just mentally tougher than Stoneman and Vince. They have concentration lapses/moments of rashness hence they fail to score really big scores.

Yes that's certainly true of Vince...just saw his get out shot on replay : ugh! Has really been the story of his career at this level...which (sadly , because he plays some really lovely strokes) is surely close to its end ?

Stoneman is a slightly different case , I think. I don't believe he has quite the class of Vince ; but he plays with a lot of determination and my impression is that he may be getting all that is actually there out of himself at this level - I may well be wrong , but that's my feeling. Doesn't mean he must be discarded : he's been facing a very good attack in their own back yard and may do better if he gets the chance against slightly lesser opposition.
I'd actually put his dismissal today down to good bowling : sure he'd have done better to drop his hands away ; but it wasn't easy.
He needs to improve to stay in the side (especially if my hopeful , Hameed , comes back) but I am reluctant to write him off at this stage. I think he goes to NZ.

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Re: The Ashes: 5th Test, Sydney

Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 7:09 am

The century partnership up for England. England 196 for 3. Root 66 Malan 39. England desperately needed this partnership.
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Re: The Ashes: 5th Test, Sydney

Post by alfie on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 7:09 am

Hundred partnership clap

It's a start.

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Re: The Ashes: 5th Test, Sydney

Post by alfie on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 7:13 am

Craig you've been watching all day ? Has Root looked more comfortable , to your eye ? I reckon he's been uncharacteristically twitchy all series - except perhaps second innings Adelaide - but perhaps has seemed more himself here : I've only seen the last hour and a half...

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Re: The Ashes: 5th Test, Sydney

Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 7:14 am

alfie wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:Alfie I think Malan is just mentally tougher than Stoneman and Vince. They have concentration lapses/moments of rashness hence they fail to score really big scores.

Yes that's certainly true of Vince...just saw his get out shot on replay : ugh!   Has really been the story of his career at this level...which (sadly , because he plays some really lovely strokes) is surely close to its end ?

Stoneman is a slightly different case , I think.  I don't believe he has quite the class of Vince ; but he plays with a lot of determination and my impression is that he may be getting all that is actually there out of himself at this level - I may well be wrong , but that's my feeling.  Doesn't mean he must be discarded : he's been facing a very good attack in their own back yard and may do better if he gets the chance against slightly lesser opposition.  
I'd actually put his dismissal today down to good bowling : sure he'd have done better to drop his hands away ; but it wasn't easy.
He needs to improve to stay in the side (especially if my hopeful , Hameed , comes back) but I am reluctant to write him off at this stage. I think he goes to NZ.

Yes I see what you are saying. Stoneman's dismissals have not been as calamitous as Vince. As tge pundits said the coaches need to sit down with him and try andcgetvinside his head to learn what he os thinking when he plays those rash shots at wide deliveries.
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Re: The Ashes: 5th Test, Sydney

Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 7:16 am

alfie wrote:Craig you've been watching all day ?  Has Root looked more comfortable , to your eye ?  I reckon he's been uncharacteristically twitchy all series - except perhaps second innings Adelaide - but perhaps has seemed more himself here : I've only seen the last hour and a half...

Not sure his timing is completely there. Mentally though has been solid. He has not offered up much hope to the bowlers.
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Re: The Ashes: 5th Test, Sydney

Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 7:19 am

Well until that top edge which just evades the fielders.
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Re: The Ashes: 5th Test, Sydney

Post by alfie on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 7:22 am

Bit of luck for Root there as he didn't have any control of that. Been out hooking once or twice this trip...don't want him to put the shot away though. He scores runs with it.

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Re: The Ashes: 5th Test, Sydney

Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 7:23 am

Another close shave for Malan after sharp fielding. England 199 for 3. Root 69 Malan 40
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Re: The Ashes: 5th Test, Sydney

Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 7:32 am

If this pair bat through to close it will have been England's day. If a wicket falls I would call it even. Two wickets fall and it is Australia's day. England 205 for 3.
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Re: The Ashes: 5th Test, Sydney

Post by alfie on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 7:37 am

Fifty for Malan clap

He has had a good series and pretty much locked in number five for the immediate future. I've thought he might do a sound job at three but they don't seem disposed to move him - and if he is happy where he is maybe best not mess with it.
Something of an extra bowling option too ; so one plus from this tour...

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Re: The Ashes: 5th Test, Sydney

Post by guildfordbat on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 7:47 am

guildfordbat wrote:Root does 2 things correctly in winning the toss and choosing to bat.

I'll be back in a few hours when the score is 200/0 or something else. Night all.

Morning / evening all - the 200/0 was meant very lightheartedly. It was always going to be something else although I feared it would be a lot worse than the 216/3 I've woken up to. Mind you, I guess things looked as if they were going to be pretty awful when we went 3 down before 100 was on the board! Highly disappointing that each of the top 3 went beyond 20 but none reached 40.

Root and Malan seem to be going well although I gather from the posts above there's been the odd scare along the way.

Anyway, it'll be a good day for us if we can finish only 3 down. As I said earlier, good toss to win. If out two main spinners can produce something reasonable or better, it should be an advantage to be bowling last.

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Re: The Ashes: 5th Test, Sydney

Post by alfie on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 7:56 am

Evening , guildford. Fair comeback after losing three in the first session.

And Joe Root has clipped one to square leg and gone for 83 with just five minutes left picard

Oh dear....was shaping as a good day but that has given Australia a huge lift. Excellent catch ...but Joe will be furious with himself.

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Re: The Ashes: 5th Test, Sydney

Post by JDizzle on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 7:58 am

Root.

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Re: The Ashes: 5th Test, Sydney

Post by alfie on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 7:58 am

Now a review for lbw...think he has hit this so they'll lose a review. Yes.

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Re: The Ashes: 5th Test, Sydney

Post by Pal Joey on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 8:02 am

Got him! Smile
That probably swings the day in favour of Australia. England played so well... if they'd gone in at 3 down then they were clearly on top.


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Re: The Ashes: 5th Test, Sydney

Post by Gooseberry on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 8:05 am

Yikes ...its quickly gone South for England again hasnt it. Yet another chance for Moeen to redeem himslef of course.

Spinners wicket yeah?
*cough*

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Re: The Ashes: 5th Test, Sydney

Post by guildfordbat on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 8:09 am

[The post that kept on being written. Smile ]

NO!!!! Root falls to Starc and the third delivery of the new ball! Shocked Fine catch by Surrey man Marsh! Wink

And now a lbw review against Bairstow. Thought it might be close on leg but hot spot shows he got some bat on it.

Into the last over now ... just see it through ... and with that Hazelwood gets Bairstow caught behind!!!

Geoffrey's 2 wickets in the last few minutes give the game a very different look. With the tail to come, the hosts should be the happier of the sides. Another England day of opportunities not taken.

To make things even worse - Swann overdosing on hindsight about how Bairstow should have been overruled about not using a night watchman.


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Re: The Ashes: 5th Test, Sydney

Post by JDizzle on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 8:09 am

Thought Smith had messed up with that review - not only was it a terrible review but it meant Aus only got one more over.

Bairstow poking away from his body not particularly advisable in the final over but that’s a terrific ball from Hazlewood. Wide and angling in, then nips away.

England could struggle to get 280 from here now...

And I’ll get it in now, seen as Swann is moaning, who was the night watchman going to be? Plus you push JB up to 7 so he’s not left with the tail then you send in a NW which leave him at 7 with the tail...

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Re: The Ashes: 5th Test, Sydney

Post by alfie on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 8:10 am

Aargh...two overs from a really good day...

And then two wickets leaves the innings in tatters. Well bowled Hazlewood to get Bairstow nicking one ...but this was a case where I think the night watchman should have come out. Just not enough batting left.

Now unless Moeen returns to form suddenly they're looking at a battle to get near 300. Talk about a late strike...

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Re: The Ashes: 5th Test, Sydney

Post by alfie on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 8:15 am

I see I'm the only one with Swann on the night watchman Smile

OK , good for Bairstow wanting to take it on : but with just Moeen left and only a few balls left I really think this was a classic case of being careful. Was not Crane padded up ? Year or two ago Jimmy would have done it...

I guess the way England always collapse on day two it won't make much difference anyway. But they'll have to bowl well.

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Re: The Ashes: 5th Test, Sydney

Post by Pal Joey on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 8:15 am

JDizzle wrote:Thought Smith had messed up with that review - not only was it a terrible review but it meant Aus only got one more over.

Yes, another poor decision there. The timing of the new ball was crucial you feel. Those two balls changed the whole complexion of the day.

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Re: The Ashes: 5th Test, Sydney

Post by Pal Joey on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 8:17 am

alfie wrote:I see I'm the only one with Swann on the night watchman Smile

I'm with you on that one, alfie. I was feeling a little worried for Crane in particular... thinking he was about to undergo a baptism of fire.
Save him for tomorrow now I guess. Wink

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Re: The Ashes: 5th Test, Sydney

Post by alfie on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 8:23 am

The Loaded Dog wrote:
JDizzle wrote:Thought Smith had messed up with that review - not only was it a terrible review but it meant Aus only got one more over.

Yes, another poor decision there. The timing of the new ball was crucial you feel. Those two balls changed the whole complexion of the day.

Certainly did. I make that very much Australia's day now : a very good decision to take the new ball as with Starc apparently struggling they might have been forgiven for waiting until tomorrow .

There is a bit more for the bowlers here than Melbourne ! But even so I can't see England getting a par score now so they are going to have to put up a couple of very good days if they want to give their spin heavy attack a serious chance late in the game...

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Re: The Ashes: 5th Test, Sydney

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 8:27 am

Gah a typical day for England this series, get themselves into a decent position then throw it away...

Also pretty typical innings for most of the batsman in this series. Stoneman is having a very similar series to Carberry last time, Vince is Vince-ing hard, and Malan is continuing his good form.

I agree with no nightwatchman - should be able to see out a few balls at the end of a day as a batsman.
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Re: The Ashes: 5th Test, Sydney

Post by guildfordbat on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 9:08 am

alfie wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:Alfie I think Malan is just mentally tougher than Stoneman and Vince. They have concentration lapses/moments of rashness hence they fail to score really big scores.

Yes that's certainly true of Vince...just saw his get out shot on replay : ugh!   Has really been the story of his career at this level...which (sadly , becathere are use he plays some really lovely strokes) is surely close to its end ?

Stoneman is a slightly different case , I think.  I don't believe he has quite the class of Vince ; but he plays with a lot of determination and my impression is that he may be getting all that is actually there out of himself at this level - I may well be wrong , but that's my feeling.  Doesn't mean he must be discarded : he's bgooseeen facing a very good attack in their own back yard and may do better if he gets the chance against slightly lesser opposition.  
I'd actually put his dismissal today down to good bowling : sure he'd have done better to drop his hands away ; but it wasn't easy.
He needs to improve to stay in the side (especially if my hopeful , Hameed , comes back) but I am reluctant to write him off at this stage. I think he goes to NZ.


Hi Alfie and Craig - Stoneman's issue isn't concentration. He's proved that with quiet periods in an innings whilst compiling big centuries in the county game. As Alfie suggests, he's struggling to come to terms with relentless bowling of very high quality. He's not a world beater and looks unlikely to even become another 'Rogers' but I too wouldn't discard him at this stage (other than Hameed who presumably still needs to get over injury, there are precious few alternatives). Against lesser opposition, he might still excel which would give him greater confidence if he gets another opportunity against the best. As I said the other week, he's also been unfortunate in this series that his experienced opening partner had an absolute mare in the first three Tests. That doesn't mean I'm saying Stoneman's failings are all Cook's fault - they are not (got that, goose everyone). However, Cook's troubles won't have helped Stoneman in what was already a difficult situation.

Meanwhile, Vince continues to demonstrate high class mixed with abject concentration. Just seen his dismissal today - oh dear, oh dear me. Massive potential there but will it go on to deliver more than 20s and 30s? How long will we give it? How long can we give it?

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Re: The Ashes: 5th Test, Sydney

Post by Gooseberry on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 9:39 am

guildfordbat wrote:
alfie wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:Alfie I think Malan is just mentally tougher than Stoneman and Vince. They have concentration lapses/moments of rashness hence they fail to score really big scores.

Yes that's certainly true of Vince...just saw his get out shot on replay : ugh!   Has really been the story of his career at this level...which (sadly , becathere are use he plays some really lovely strokes) is surely close to its end ?

Stoneman is a slightly different case , I think.  I don't believe he has quite the class of Vince ; but he plays with a lot of determination and my impression is that he may be getting all that is actually there out of himself at this level - I may well be wrong , but that's my feeling.  Doesn't mean he must be discarded : he's bgooseeen facing a very good attack in their own back yard and may do better if he gets the chance against slightly lesser opposition.  
I'd actually put his dismissal today down to good bowling : sure he'd have done better to drop his hands away ; but it wasn't easy.
He needs to improve to stay in the side (especially if my hopeful , Hameed , comes back) but I am reluctant to write him off at this stage. I think he goes to NZ.


Hi Alfie and Craig - Stoneman's issue isn't concentration. He's proved that with quiet periods in an innings whilst compiling big centuries in the county game. As Alfie suggests, he's struggling to come to terms with relentless bowling of very high quality. He's not a world beater and looks unlikely to even become another 'Rogers' but I too wouldn't discard him at this stage (other than Hameed who presumably still needs to get over injury, there are precious few alternatives). Against lesser opposition, he might still excel which would give him greater confidence if he gets another opportunity against the best. As I said the other week, he's also been unfortunate in this series that his experienced opening partner had an absolute mare in the first three Tests. That doesn't mean I'm saying Stoneman's failings are all Cook's fault - they are not (got that, goose everyone). However, Cook's troubles won't have helped Stoneman in what was already a difficult situation.

Meanwhile, Vince continues to demonstrate high class mixed with abject concentration. Just seen his dismissal today - oh dear, oh dear me. Massive potential there but will it go on to deliver more than 20s and 30s? How long will we give it? How long can we give it?


Very much what Ive been arguing for some time Guilford (prior to his slection). Stonem,an just isnt really good enough, or of an age where hes likely to improve dramaticaly. He has been bought in to fill a very big gap in the top 3. I doubt he will get ditched for NZ simply because theres noone banging the door down to get his place, if there were goign to go back to Jennings I feel it wouldve been at the start of this series. Its up to Hameed to get a good start to the CC to prove he has his confidence back and is capable of scoring runs as well as staying in. Stonemans not had the best of hlep from those around him but even when Cook was flourishing on a flat wicket he couldnt produce. The previous incumbents did better and got dropped.
Vince arguably is pretty unlucky. He certainly does have the talent, and was well on his way to what wouldve been the most skillfull century of any batsman on this tour before getting out to a jaffa. For the most part though hes way too exposed at 3, and has really been shoehorned in there because noone else wanted the spot. I very much see him like Ian Bell, he has the stroke play but would be better placed 4-6 than 3. Hes a better bat than Malan, but Malans the one of the 3 whos really cemented a spot in the side in teh position that Vince would otherwise more naturally occupy. With Root still possibly struggling with taking on the captaincy and being a senior bat its maybe too much to ask for him to move up to 3 and give Vince a run down the order ...but that should be an option on the table. I certainly think he should be reatined for the New Zealand series and given a fair run.

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Re: The Ashes: 5th Test, Sydney

Post by jimbohammers on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 9:44 am

Vince is so frustrating. As a Hampshire fan who watches him regularly, i know hoe good he can be. He's shown is class on this tour, but in some innings just hasn't gone on.
I do think (bias or not) he deserves the next tour. As does Stoneman. They've shown something worth sticking with.

Im with Alfie, would have gone with a nightwatchman.

Can anyone tell me if tonights play will start any earlier? Was supposed to be 11.30pm UK time but as the delay went on, not able to watch any of it!

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Re: The Ashes: 5th Test, Sydney

Post by guildfordbat on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 9:57 am

alfie wrote:I see I'm the only one with Swann on the night watchman Smile

OK , good for Bairstow wanting to take it on : but with just Moeen left and only a few balls left I really think this was a classic case of being careful. Was not Crane padded up ? Year or two ago Jimmy would have done it...

I guess the way England always collapse on day two it won't make much difference anyway.  But they'll have to bowl well.

Alfie - what I find so maddening about Swann and also Vaughan plus the infantile muppet Smith who feeds them on BT Sport is that their non-stop comments only begin after the event.

If we had ended only 4 down with Bairstow still at the crease, they would have all been falling over themselves to tell us ''what a brave man Jonny Bairstow is, full marks to him for standing up and backing himself, and being ready to go again in the morning'' etc etc. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

As for my own take? I don't like night watchmen and, whether others agree with me or not, I have always been clear and consistent in that. I believe the captain (or as increasingly rerred to on tv, 'the management') should back his batsman and the batsman should back the team. A night watchman is likely to be out early the next day, if not the preceding evening, to put another wicket on the board and give the bowling side an immediate further lift. It also increases the chances of a 'proper' batsman being left high and dry on a not out score and lessens the options for a partnership.

That said, I accept there is a risk involved in not using a night watchman as shown today and that if we were going to lose a fifth wicket, I would obviously far rather it have been Crane or Anderson than Bairstow. However, nothing in cricket is certain and there's a risk in every decision. For me, Bairstow batting rather than a night watchman was the risk I would have taken as did Root (I'm giving the captain the responsibility for the decision). It obviously didn't work out today and so I'm on weak ground if I try to claim it was still the right decision. However, there was still some reasoning and total consistency in my decision which is why it gets my goat when an oaf of a pundit like Swann refers to its ''stupidity''.

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Re: The Ashes: 5th Test, Sydney

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 9:58 am

jimbohammers wrote:Vince is so frustrating. As a Hampshire fan who watches him regularly, i know hoe good he can be. He's shown is class on this tour, but in some innings just hasn't gone on.
I do think (bias or not) he deserves the next tour. As does Stoneman. They've shown something worth sticking with.

Im with Alfie, would have gone with a nightwatchman.

Can anyone tell me if tonights play will start any earlier? Was supposed to be 11.30pm UK time but as the delay went on, not able to watch any of it!

Play will start at 11pm UK time for Day two Jimbo Smile

Agreed re: Vince - I think he's shown he clearly has the natural ability to play at international level, he just needs to work on the mental side of it. I don't think the dismissal today was so much poor shot selection, as just a lazy execution of it.

And unless anybody on the Lions tour of West Indies has an amazing run of form, I'll be shocked if Stoneman/Vince aren't playing in New Zealand. I think they've done just about enough to earn another shot.
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Re: The Ashes: 5th Test, Sydney

Post by alfie on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 11:03 am

Just to take up a couple of points discussed above :

On Vince : I agree he has talent. He is great to watch. But he has played , what , a dozen matches now ? And he is still making the same mistakes he made in his first game... And still getting out for thirty or so...reminds me a bit of Mark Ramprakash the current batting coach. He may well get the NZ tour - and I won't howl with outrage if he does - but I question whether he is ever going to make a real Test Match top order player. With Root unwilling to move from four and Malan looking solid at five I think England need someone more reliable at three to complete the set...whether they can find one is another question Smile

As for the night watchman - it seems to me some people have a quasi- religious objection to the concept and I am always inclined to be more flexible : when your team is fragile already in batting I think it is more important to safeguard your remaining assets - like Bairstow , in this case. Had there been longer to bat , fair enough. But Crane virtually needed only to take guard and block a couple of balls to ensure safety for the recognized batsmen ...and then. Even if he'd got out tomorrow first up we wouldn't be sweating on the out of form Moeen facing the new ball immediately...
Not hindsight in my case ...I was surprised to see YJB emerge from the shed this evening.

And I'm not saying it was crazy , by the way : just not what I would have done. And in this case , it didn't work.

Hoping for something from Moeen tomorrow , however unlikely it seems . Surely the fellow can't have completely forgotten how to bat...maybe he will get lucky and get off to a start and it will all come back. We can hope , no ?

Whatever they make it will then be crucial for England to keep the Australian first innings in check. If they can prevent them doing a Perth monster then they've some sort of chance anyway as the third innings ought to be the best time to bat. I would really like to to see Crane given a decent shot at fourth innings heroics...

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Re: The Ashes: 5th Test, Sydney

Post by KP_fan on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 11:14 am

My thoughts on D1:

--On the evidence of Lyon's bowling the spinning pitch that Root saw wasn't there
Not quite yet atleast....the first two tests accorded far more sharper spin and bounce to Lyon

--In the last 15 minutes Eng finished losing the day that sets them back greatly in the test.....losing their two best batsmen...Root ain't converting...pressure of captaincy loss of focus

The big positive for Eng is they have found 3 new batters who have shown potential...Malan clearly the find of series....Stoneman looks good  OK and compact as an opener even though he hasn't converted many of his starts...Vince has done just enough to get a few more games

Where is that guy Hameed who opened so well in India......he could be a good No.3 in case Vince doesn't cut it eventually

--Starc was a yard down in pace...and yet produced some ripping deliveries swining in late with conventional swing

Given that ball is still new Malan must hold one end and bat with tailenders like Ali Laugh.........  and those who follow him to try and get Eng to 300 which won't be enough but something to fight with given that Aus will bat last....and the rumored spin may appear by then
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Re: The Ashes: 5th Test, Sydney

Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 11:30 am

If anyone has been holidaying on Mars and have missed thevseries then just watch today's play for a great summary of the series in a nutshell. England batsmen getting in and then making 20-odd and seeming settled then gifting their wicket away and from a decent position ending up in trouble. It ended up Australia's day.

I feel sure Stoneman and Vince will still go to NZ and probably keep their places but that should be last chance saloon. If neither post a big score such as 80 to 100+ I would look elsewhere.

Tomorrow will be about what England can salvage from the wreckage. The average first innings score at the SCG apparently is 350 and you feel that should be England's goal. The only way I see that happening is by Malan sticking around to make a century with the tail offering a little support with Broad throwing in a cameo. That, I feel, is not going to happen as Australia have use of that new ball first thing. It will probably be all over for around 275.
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Re: The Ashes: 5th Test, Sydney

Post by guildfordbat on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 11:40 am

alfie wrote:Just to take up a couple of points discussed above :

On Vince : I agree he has talent.  He is great to watch.  But he has played , what , a dozen matches now ?  And he is still making the same mistakes he made in his first game... And still getting out for thirty or so...reminds me a bit of Mark Ramprakash  the current batting coach. He may well get the NZ tour - and I won't howl with outrage if he does  - but I question whether he is ever going to make a real Test Match top order player. With Root unwilling to move from four and Malan looking solid at five I think England need someone more reliable at three to complete the set...whether they can find one is another question Smile

As for the night watchman - it seems to me some people have a quasi- religious objection to the concept and I am always inclined to be more flexible : when your team is fragile already in batting I think it is more important to safeguard your remaining assets - like Bairstow , in this case.  Had there been longer to bat , fair enough. But Crane virtually needed only to take guard and block a couple of balls to ensure safety for the recognized batsmen ...and then. Even if he'd got out tomorrow first up we wouldn't be sweating on the out of form Moeen facing the new ball immediately...
Not hindsight in my case ...I was surprised to see YJB emerge from the shed this evening.

And I'm not saying it was crazy , by the way : just not what I would have done.  And in this case , it didn't work.


Hoping for something from Moeen tomorrow , however unlikely it seems . Surely the fellow can't have completely forgotten how to bat...maybe he will get lucky and get off to a start and it will all come back.  We can hope , no ?

Whatever they make it will then be crucial for England to keep the Australian first innings in check. If they can prevent them doing a Perth monster then they've some sort of chance anyway as the third innings ought to be the best time to bat.  I would really like to to see Crane given a decent shot at fourth innings heroics...

Even with my quasi-religious objection to night watchmen Wink , the wording I've put in bold is fair enough and accepted. What I particularly object to by Swann is the demonising of the decision only after it didn't work.

PS Hameed is recovering from a bad finger injury (suffered late last season after his return to the county game following his broken (?) arm).

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Re: The Ashes: 5th Test, Sydney

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 11:42 am

http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/21956804/story-vince-career

Pretty damning piece on James Vince here
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Re: The Ashes: 5th Test, Sydney

Post by jimbohammers on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 12:05 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
jimbohammers wrote:Vince is so frustrating. As a Hampshire fan who watches him regularly, i know hoe good he can be. He's shown is class on this tour, but in some innings just hasn't gone on.
I do think (bias or not) he deserves the next tour. As does Stoneman. They've shown something worth sticking with.

Im with Alfie, would have gone with a nightwatchman.

Can anyone tell me if tonights play will start any earlier? Was supposed to be 11.30pm UK time but as the delay went on, not able to watch any of it!

Play will start at 11pm UK time for Day two Jimbo Smile

Agreed re: Vince - I think he's shown he clearly has the natural ability to play at international level, he just needs to work on the mental side of it. I don't think the dismissal today was so much poor shot selection, as just a lazy execution of it.

And unless anybody on the Lions tour of West Indies has an amazing run of form, I'll be shocked if Stoneman/Vince aren't playing in New Zealand. I think they've done just about enough to earn another shot.

Cheers Olly OK

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Re: The Ashes: 5th Test, Sydney

Post by dummy_half on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 12:08 pm

In general I think England use the night watchman too readily, but the situation today was really set up for one. The problem is who do you sent in - Broad isn't suitable, Anderson is cooked from that role, so you have Crane on debut or Curran who is bordering on an all rounder anyway.

We were a bit caught between the devil and the deep blue sea there, and all because Root played a slightly loose clip on a ball he'd have been looking to put to the boundary.

In the R4 summary, Ed Smith said some interesting things about Stoneman and Vince, and broke batting down into 3 elements - inherent physiological ability, personality (concentration / mental strength) and technique. He reckons Stoneman's issues are technical in playing good short pitched bowling, and that it is something that can be worked on (to keep more side on and to not follow the ball up with the hands and bat), although it's a medium term fix, not something that can be sorted out but the second innings here.

By contrast he reckons Vince may have the best inherent ability and a sound technique in general but the issue is his personality, and that is not something that can be changed easily - JV is making the same mistakes and getting out in the same way as he has throughout his Test career, and that no matter how many times he gets told the same thing, the Goweresque waft outside off stump will always be part of his make up. Basically it's a case of either choosing to live with a lot of nice 20-40 run cameos with occasional better scores (and some failures) or deciding that isn't sufficient and moving on to someone else.

Anyway, hopefully tomorrow Moeen will remember that he is a proper batsman and we can somehow cobble together another 150 between the two batsmen and the tail enders.

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Re: The Ashes: 5th Test, Sydney

Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 12:11 pm

SO good until the last 10 balls.

Feel for Root, they were talking about Starc’s hand moving from shadow to Light to shadow with the ball in that last spell and I imagine that’s a nightmare to track with a new ball

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Re: The Ashes: 5th Test, Sydney

Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 12:12 pm

Stoneman > Vince

Vince won’t concentrate for long enough.

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Re: The Ashes: 5th Test, Sydney

Post by Duty281 on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 12:14 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Gah a typical day for England this series, get themselves into a decent position then throw it away...

And a typical innings for Root: make a half-century, but no advance to the full century.

Whilst I'm pleased he's still making 50s, of course, the great struggle to convert them into mammoth scores must be really gnawing away at him.

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Re: The Ashes: 5th Test, Sydney

Post by guildfordbat on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 2:17 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/21956804/story-vince-career

Pretty damning piece on James Vince here

Thanks for that, Olly.

I saw Vince's century at the Oval last season that Jarrod Kimber refers to in the article. Even though I usually bang on about the need for century makers to go on and make it big, I feel Kimber's harsh in this case on Vince getting out soon after he brought up three figures. When he was third out, Hants had more than 230 (just checked!) on the board and Adams was doing well at the other end on the way to his own ton. It was a lovely innings from Vince combining elegance and aggression, probably at or near his best, and set Hants up for a score of almost 650. If he could do that more regularly, he would be a real asset to the England side.

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Re: The Ashes: 5th Test, Sydney

Post by jimbohammers on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 4:28 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Stoneman > Vince

Vince won’t concentrate for long enough.

2 very different players.... Both worth sticking with IMO

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Re: The Ashes: 5th Test, Sydney

Post by LivinginItaly on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 7:33 pm

I Think England will struggle to get near 300. Hope Ali can find some form. I think he will go for his shots and try and hit himself into form. should at least make the opening period interesting. I really hope Malan can shepherd the tail and bring up a hundred. 350 would be a good score from here.

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Re: The Ashes: 5th Test, Sydney

Post by JDizzle on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 8:03 pm

I like Vince. Love the fact that he can make top, top quality bowlers in Starc and co. look average for periods. Obviously there has to be some return on the potential at some point fairly sharpish, but he deserves an extended run - potentially down the order, yes. Although that would mean moving Root and Malan up to three and four.

Plus I don't think he is a guy who would learn anything from going to back to County Cricket. He needs to work it out at the top level.

Compared to a guy like Stoneman, who's ceiling is probably just that of a solid, but limited opener at Test match level. Nothing to be sniffed at, especially considering the trouble we have had finding an opening partner for Cook but Vince is definitely the bigger risk/reward player.

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Re: The Ashes: 5th Test, Sydney

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 8:09 pm

Really hope Moeen scores some runs tonight - be good to get some confidence back into his game ahead of the NZ series
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Re: The Ashes: 5th Test, Sydney

Post by eirebilly on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 8:24 pm

How'ya lads. How was the first days play, heard a lot of negative comments about it, fair or not?

What time is play due to start tonight, BT starts at around 21:30...
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Re: The Ashes: 5th Test, Sydney

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