The Ashes: 5th Test, Sydney

First topic message reminder :

5th Test Sydney, January 4-8, 2017 (23:30 GMT Jan 3)

Australia:
Bancroft, Warner, Khawaja, Smith *, S Marsh, M Marsh, Paine †, Starc, Cummins, Lyon, Hazelwood

England:
Cook, Stoneman, Vince, Root *, Malan, Bairstow †, Ali, Curran, Broad, Crane, Anderson

Oh yes alfie I have said much the same about Moeen but it is the lack of all-rounder options that you have to think about. That and there are the odd signs in this test that he may be emerging from his long, dark tunnel.

Root and Bairstow holding firm and ensuring there will be a fifth day. England still 211 runs behind on 92 for 4. Root 41 Bairstow 17.

Oh I hear what you're saying , Craig.

I did think Moeen looked a bit better with the ball early in the Australian innings.  But he didn't sustain it  ; and I guess the way he's been slaughtered here - plus his ineffectiveness in India - has started to leave me concerned that he may never be able to do the job for England on these key tours and therefore needs to give way to a more threatening spinner .  Which would leave him needing to either justify a top order batting place or for England to play regularly with two spinners...
A rerun of an old argument I guess.

Back in England , I imagine Moeen slots back in as the variety around four seamers : and that is fine in terms of trying to win the games ahead of you  - surely the correct priority.  But long term they might need something different so NZ might just offer a chance to see if there is a viable alternative...

Will be interesting to see what he does when he bats in this innings. Might give a clue to his mental state.

Good for Root ensuring the game goes to the last day

I do feel England need a premier spinner and that is not Ali. England have tried to muddle through with him as a part-time spinner to fill the gap but in key series he will get found out. The solution? Play a full-time spinner and just allow Ali to concentrate mainly on batting and use him as back-up spinner where conditions permit.

England close on 93 for 4. Root 42 Bairstow 17. The coup de gras awaiting completion tomorrow.

CaledonianCraig wrote:I do feel England need a premier spinner and that is not Ali. England have tried to muddle through with him as a part-time spinner to fill the gap but in key series he will get found out. The solution? Play a full-time spinner and just allow Ali to concentrate mainly on batting and use him as back-up spinner where conditions permit.

Well yes. Raises a couple of difficulties of course : identity of the Premier Spinner ; whether England can operate with three fast bowlers and two spinners ; or whether Moeen rates as a top six bat. Perhaps we will come back to this on the new
Selection Issues thread that will be up after this series is done and dusted...

Asking for a premier spinner is like asking for those 90mph bowlers, they don't actually exist and won't do for a few years at best. We actually have to accept the likes of Moeen are the best we have, and these tours are going to be thrashings

Craig...the "premier spinners" theyve tried recently have been even worse thn moeen....so yes it should be an ambition to find one but it has to be someone genuinely worth a place.
In this case for all the patronising plaudits about how good he looks it was pretty obvious Crane was on a hiding to nothing when selected for the squad. Leg spinners are almost done as a significant force in test cricket world over let alone young english ones with moderate county records.


The finger has to be pointed at the county game and the development coaching/performance squads and everything else we are sinking the ecbs cash into. It also applies to the fast bowlers and openers crisis England have . England are sinking huge resources ..only bettered by India...into finding and developing young talent but seem to only produce and endless supply of wicket keeper batsmen.

With cook, anderson and broad all hurtling toward retirement that leaves Root,Stokes (assuming he doesnt go to jail) and Bairstow as Englands only established test class players likely to be around in two years. Its a hell of a lot of gaps to fill.

I agree we can only pick players who exist and whilst theres a strong case that Crane was a poor pick and Plunkett shouldve toured neither decision would do more than paper the issue.
The people payed to identify and develop these players ( we have a fast bowlers programme ffs) arent producing results. County pitches and hiding behind a hone record makes their job harder.

England should be competing with Aus India and SA for the number one spot. Right now they look a mile behind ...most notably in the bowlers. No Ashwin, no Philander, no Starc. Just Anderson limping to retirement.

But dont let me come across as negative

In terms of the batsmens futures was quite explicit that those in the Lions have to make big runs to earn a place in new zealand ...not just rely on these guys playing themselves out of one.
Im changing my tack a bit though after this test and continued failures for both Stoneman and Vince ...they have to be vulnerable.

I do find it bizarre that Rashid has seemingly been tossed aside for test cricket when last winter he returned 30 wickets at an average of 35 - nothing special, but acceptable as definitely enough to be a squad option.

But as VTR points out we can moan about no spinner and lack of fiery pace all we want, it’s not suddenly going to grow a bunch on trees for us. It is what it is, and we have to accept currently away from home we are a average side. And without Stokes, a very poor side

James Vince really has mastered the art of James Vince-ing

Half of me thinks they should give Stoneman/Vince the NZ tour, the other half thinks they should take a punt on some youngsters like Hameed/Livingstone/Lawrence etc.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:James Vince really has mastered the art of James Vince-ing

The art of James Vince-ing is quite similar to the old art of Ian Bell-ing.

Lord forbid anyone should accuse Goose of being negative

Look I know the doom and gloom picture is front and centre at the moment . But things can change quicker than you'd think in cricket.
Leaving India out of the argument for now : it is only a few months ago that SA were decisively beaten in England ...and only a few before that the same SA wiped the floor with Australia on their own pitches...
Much as the gap might look as wide as the Grand Canyon right now it probably wouldn't take as many adjustments to bring about a reassessment.
I'm looking forward to seeing the fallout after the SA/India and SA / Australia series because I'm betting not everyone now looking a million dollars will have quite the same reputation after they're finished - such is international cricket.

For England they have a number of problems - immediate and medium term (long term will have to wait for now). Resolving the Stokes business is surely the biggest (though not exactly in their own hands !) because it affects other decisions. Hopefully we will see some action before the home summer...
More later...have to go.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Half of me thinks they should give Stoneman/Vince the NZ tour, the other half thinks they should take a punt on some youngsters like Hameed/Livingstone/Lawrence etc.

I half agree with that. I'd take two new bats (wouldn't bother with Ballance , not that he's actually done anything wrong on this tour ) but I'm slightly unsure now whether I'd retain one or other of those two. I understand they intend to announce the squad straight after this match so we will know soon enough.

Some good posts above as to the reasons for our trouncing stemming from chat between Craig and Alfie when I was still in the land of nod and dreaming of England turning it around.

No disagreements with the key factors that have been flagged. The following are quick thoughts that occur to me.

I do think the Lyon factor has been highly significant. He's not only taken wickets but he's also provided containment enabling the three quicks to be rotated and keep going rather than being burnt out. IF (here we go again ) we could have swapped him with Moeen, we would have seen at least some evening up between the sides.

The Australian selectors merit applause for some of their picks which initially seemed bizarre, if not downright wrong. Paine and the Marsh brothers have all exceeded expectations by a long way. The players obviously also need to be applauded for their performances but keep in mind it would have been the selectors getting loud boos if these choices had flopped.

The quality of tailend batting has improved enormously in the last twenty years or so. However, the one thing they still struggle with is pace. Credit to the Australian fast men led by Starc in so often effectively blasting out our late middle order and tail in this series.

Other concerns relating to the organisation of the English county game and tour schedules continue to apply. Oh, and a certain ginger haired player who didn't play ... but above all else, the best and a very good team won.

This result was always on the cards. This margin was always likely. The only disappointment is how inept the English bowling has been, with the exception of Anderson who appears to exist outside of time.

Australia are a better test team than England in Australia. England have only won one test series in Australia in the last quarter of a century.

And England are a better test team than Australia in England. Australia have only won one test series in England since the start of this century.

England's place in world test cricket is somewhere in the top four. And, yes, they have serious deficiencies in certain areas: no quality opening partner for Cook, no quality number 3, a lack of a quality spinner, no quality third seamer, and a worrying lack of depth to make up for the shortfall when Anderson and Broad go.

And while England may be too beleaguered to best New Zealand next month, they will win the Ashes back in 2019. They will give India and Pakistan a tonking this summer, and the West Indies next winter. They'll struggle to get past Sri Lanka, mind, also this winter.

Root needs to be axed as captain. His overall captaincy, not just in this series, has been lacking, but, in my opinion, you should never give the captaincy to an all-rounder or bowler, but neither should you give it to a star batsman who is expected to deliver heaps of runs. You should give it to a middle-of-the-road batsman, which is why players like Strauss and Atherton and Brearley were excellent captains (the third of those especially). And Vince needs to be removed from the side. He clearly isn't up to the level of test cricket, though he may get there in the future, and this has been evident before the series started.

Laughed when I heard the score this morning. This is England

From my observations though Crane carved out more opportunities with his spin than Ali did so I hope he won't be jettisoned so Ali is kept for part-time spinning. Lets not forget the 20-year-old had a very good year in Sheffield Shield cricket so that counts for something as well.

Duty281 wrote:
...

Root needs to be axed as captain. His overall captaincy, not just in this series, has been lacking, but, in my opinion, you should never give the captaincy to an all-rounder or bowler, but neither should you give it to a star batsman who is expected to deliver heaps of runs. You should give it to a middle-of-the-road batsman, which is why players like Strauss and Atherton and Brearley were excellent captains (the third of those especially). And Vince needs to be removed from the side. He clearly isn't up to the level of test cricket, though he may get there in the future, and this has been evident before the series started.

Hi Duty - on that basis, you're not left with many captaincy alternatives. Of the current squad, I think your only remaining choices are Stoneman, Malan and Ballance. For different reasons, I wouldn't go a bundle on any of them at the current time.

I've long said that there are pluses and minuses with central contracts. One of the minuses is that the England skipper doesn't get the opportunity to learn the art of captaincy in the county game. Furthermore, unlike in the past, he doesn't have teammates with captaincy experience on the field alongside him.

CaledonianCraig wrote:From my observations though Crane carved out more opportunities with his spin than Ali did so I hope he won't be jettisoned so Ali is kept for part-time spinning. Lets not forget the 20-year-old had a very good year in Sheffield Shield cricket so that counts for something as well.

Crane evidently has talent, but 29games into his first class career he has an average of 43.98. He bowled ok here but I think the media/comms were slightly overhyping him, he’s way way off test cricket at the moment

Crane didn't have a whole sheffield season, he played a handful of games if that...majority of his wickets were for a club side.....I believe that the selectors made a poor chocie taking Crane, however, now they have chosen him, they need to stick to him and give him a run...chopping and changing dosen't help anyone... give him a run and see what he can do.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:From my observations though Crane carved out more opportunities with his spin than Ali did so I hope he won't be jettisoned so Ali is kept for part-time spinning. Lets not forget the 20-year-old had a very good year in Sheffield Shield cricket so that counts for something as well.

Crane evidently has talent, but 29games into his first class career he has an average of 43.98. He bowled ok here but I think the media/comms were slightly overhyping him, he’s way way off test cricket at the moment

And Ali with more experience has only got a fractionally better average yet he is to be guaranteed a place in the side? Nobody is saying Crane is the finished article and he will only get better. Okay I ignore hype from the obvious bias of Swann but when Warne is complimentary you take note.

How do you balance the batting with crane in the side?

Lets also remember we wont see a spinners pitch till sri lanka.

Can england afford to carry a player learning his trade in the side whos unlikley to be able to bowl bulk overs in the first innings and cant bat?

With Stokes back maybe. But i cant see how you get a viable england side with him in right now?

You could say the same for a low confidence Moeen too of course.

Make up of the side in NZ injuries aside could be something like this:-

Cook
Stoneman (Hameed or Hales)
Vince (or Westley)
Root
Malan
Bairstow
Ali (or Woakes)
Roland-Jones
Broad
Crane
Anderson

That is assuming Stokes is still not available.

Give Broad a rest for Woakes. Have a look at someone younger than TRJ

Hameed in to open and Stoneman at 3

guildfordbat wrote:

Duty281 wrote:
...

Root needs to be axed as captain. His overall captaincy, not just in this series, has been lacking, but, in my opinion, you should never give the captaincy to an all-rounder or bowler, but neither should you give it to a star batsman who is expected to deliver heaps of runs. You should give it to a middle-of-the-road batsman, which is why players like Strauss and Atherton and Brearley were excellent captains (the third of those especially). And Vince needs to be removed from the side. He clearly isn't up to the level of test cricket, though he may get there in the future, and this has been evident before the series started.

Hi Duty - on that basis, you're not left with many captaincy alternatives. Of the current squad, I think your only remaining choices are Stoneman, Malan and Ballance. For different reasons, I wouldn't go a bundle on any of them at the current time.

I've long said that there are pluses and minuses with central contracts. One of the minuses is that the England skipper doesn't get the opportunity to learn the art of captaincy in the county game. Furthermore, unlike in the past, he doesn't have teammates with captaincy experience on the field alongside him.

True (on both counts).

I would have a slight preference for Bairstow as captain.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:From my observations though Crane carved out more opportunities with his spin than Ali did so I hope he won't be jettisoned so Ali is kept for part-time spinning. Lets not forget the 20-year-old had a very good year in Sheffield Shield cricket so that counts for something as well.

Crane evidently has talent, but 29games into his first class career he has an average of 43.98. He bowled ok here but I think the media/comms were slightly overhyping him, he’s way way off test cricket at the moment

Yes, and the danger of him playing test cricket before he is ready is that he will be mentally scarred, thus jeopardising the prospect of him fulfilling his potential.

If you are good enough you are old enough and by all accounts his strength is his mental toughness. Being flung in young didn't harm Root, Smith or Stokes and many others in test cricket and in other sports.

I read a statistic today in CI:

--that Eng has conceded 4 of their highest totals in overseas tests in the last 7 tests

--add to that the stat that the only 3 times in the history of test cricket.... a team has lost by an inning after scoring 400 runs in the first inning......and its Eng on all occasions...... and its this Eng team and its happened also in the last 7 tests

the meaning of these two staggering stats is clear

and I hear some praise of Crane.......maan...this is cut throat professional world and there are no marks for trying......results and only results matter and this kid ain't a test match quality spinner and for the reasons I mentioned on his action...he ain't gonna become one

Instead of crying over what they do not have....Eng must value Stokes the allrounder and useful batsmen like Woakes and Broad among their front-line first choice seamers

They could get better dividends by getting Root & Malan to practice and bowl as spinners

Can Eng avoid inning defeat? Possible...they have to bat 2 sessions
can save the test.......well mircales do happen sometimes

400 and losing by an innings has happened more than the three times England have done it over the last two winters. I don't read too much into that stat myself, other than run rates are higher and the art of batting for a draw is more or less dead, it's become a lot more possible than before. I'd also add its only England that seem to get sent on these ridiculous overseas tours playing 5 Tests back to back. Again a recent development

CaledonianCraig wrote:If you are good enough you are old enough and by all accounts his strength is his mental toughness. Being flung in young didn't harm Root, Smith or Stokes and many others in test cricket and in other sports.

They were clearly ready, though (Smith perhaps not, as he went for a period of two years without being picked).

If Crane continually plays tests and continually ends up with figures of 1/100-odd it's not going to do him any good in the long-run.

Joe Root in hospital exhibiting symptoms of severe dehydration and it is unsure whether he will take any part in today’s play.

Just be sensible - nothing to gain by him dragging himself out of hospital to play.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:From my observations though Crane carved out more opportunities with his spin than Ali did so I hope he won't be jettisoned so Ali is kept for part-time spinning. Lets not forget the 20-year-old had a very good year in Sheffield Shield cricket so that counts for something as well.

Crane evidently has talent, but 29games into his first class career he has an average of 43.98. He bowled ok here but I think the media/comms were slightly overhyping him, he’s way way off test cricket at the moment

And Ali with more experience has only got a fractionally better average yet he is to be guaranteed a place in the side? Nobody is saying Crane is the finished article and he will only get better. Okay I ignore hype from the obvious bias of Swann but when Warne is complimentary you take note.

Ah yes Shane Warne, the man noted as having worked with Crane, being a fellow Hampshire player/fan, and having a massive hard on for anyone who bowls legspin, clearly has no bias here...

It’s pretty obvious to anyone with working eyes Crane needs to go back to county cricket and work on his game and gain experience, he’s nowhere near ready for test level yet

Whether or not County cricket is set up to help produce and develop young spinners is a different argument again... Or just a straight no!

They could just treat him like Broad. Pick at a young age because they see something and are happy to ride the lows because they are comfortable in what they see in him.

Agree, no point in getting Root out in 40 to 50 degree heat just so he can struggle on for another half an hour, in a match that is already over.

I love how the BBC report on Root's illness has:

a) A picture of Joe Root drinking some water
b) A paragraph about Ben Stokes' fight, Bairstow's headbutt and Duckett's drink-pouring incident
c) A graphic that says England have a 1% chance of victory

JDizzle wrote:Whether or not County cricket is set up to help produce and develop young spinners is a different argument again... Or just a straight no!

They could just treat him like Broad. Pick at a young age because they see something and are happy to ride the lows because they are comfortable in what they see in him.

Maybe if he starts the summer off well, but he shouldn’t be in the team for the New Zealand tour. If you don’t want to play Moeen if his form hasn’t improved, in a Stokes-less world, it has to be Rashid or Dawson.

Moeen falls to Lyon for the billionth time in the series. Real Groundhog Day, that.

Root coming out to bat. Silly, what's he trying to prove?

Simon Mann on TMS just did for Moeen, he was batting well and sensibly but didnt last long enough to save his tour.

Roots come out to bat from hospital

Should be the end of Moeen's Test career. Inept with the bat, considering he's a frontline batsman usually hiding down at 7 or 8. His bowling has always been dross, the two standout moments: 1. at home vs India where they couldn't help gifting him wickets 2. last year at home against a weak South African side still mentally scared from their drubbing at the hands of Ashwin and Jadeja.

Moeen was never more than a luxury when Stokes was in the playing XI. When Stokes is missing you really see how dreadful Moeen actually is.

We need a proper spinner be it Adil Rashid(490 first class wickets) or Jack Leach. Moeen and Crane where pitiful.

Duty281 wrote:Moeen falls to Lyon for the billionth time in the series. Real Groundhog Day, that.

Root coming out to bat. Silly, what's he trying to prove?

Probably just wants to give people a chance to slag him off for getting out in the 90s

Joe Root passes fifty for the fiftieth time in his Test career in 119 innings. #MrConsistent

Composite team of the series...

Warner
Boycotts Gran with a stick of rhubarb
Smith
Root
S Marsh
Bairstow
Starc
Hazlewood
Cummins
Anderson
Lyon

Good cricket from both sides in that session.

Accuracy and patience from Australia. Concentration and determination from England.

I still strongly back Australia to win but am pleased we've shown some last day fight.

Duty281 wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:If you are good enough you are old enough and by all accounts his strength is his mental toughness. Being flung in young didn't harm Root, Smith or Stokes and many others in test cricket and in other sports.

They were clearly ready, though (Smith perhaps not, as he went for a period of two years without being picked).

If Crane continually plays tests and continually ends up with figures of 1/100-odd it's not going to do him any good in the long-run.

If he kept getting 1/100 he wouldn't stay long ! I didn't think he was ready ; and he probably still isn't . But with Moeen almost unselectable at present there is an opportunity to try Crane again in NZ (assuming the conditions aren't completely unsuitable for a spinner) and see if he can learn on the job. Might it not be worth a try ?

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

JDizzle wrote:Whether or not County cricket is set up to help produce and develop young spinners is a different argument again... Or just a straight no!

They could just treat him like Broad. Pick at a young age because they see something and are happy to ride the lows because they are comfortable in what they see in him.

Maybe if he starts the summer off well, but he shouldn’t be in the team for the New Zealand tour. If you don’t want to play Moeen if his form hasn’t improved, in a Stokes-less world, it has to be Rashid or Dawson.

Blimey , Olly ...weren't you driving the Crane Train a few weeks ago ?

guildfordbat wrote:Good cricket from both sides in that session.

Accuracy and patience from Australia. Concentration and determination from England.

I still strongly back Australia to win but am pleased we've shown some last day fight.

I am pleased to see they are making Australia work for the win. Been well beaten ; but I do give them credit for continuing to scrap - more so than four years ago , I think it is fair to say ? Joe Root might be unwise to have come from his sick bed to bat but it shows his determination - he's going to need it if he stays on as captain for the next few years!

Roots stayed in the toilets after the break...Currans in