Club vs Country? NH vs SH? Seismic change?

First topic message reminder :

Big meeting in the next 24 hours

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/48348250

Personally, i hope this initiative never gets off the ground.

Grassroots support and participation are the genesis of quality rugby players. Australia are lacking so should the rest of the world bail them out financially so they can recruit from Aus League? Hell no IMO.

No it’s not, it’s kids getting an education. The likes of Ireland spend money on adult rugby players that get capped after spending a couple of years in club rugby. They return home after their careers are done and say bye bye Ireland for good (for example).

Yeah no worries, I made my point so thats cool.

Do we know if SANZAR are serious about growing the game and making the championship 6 teams or was that only so there were equal numbers in each conference.

With alot of the reports coming out from down south it would seem that only the 6 Nations don't want to grow the game.  But I thing the facts on the ground will show that SANZAAR will continue to ignore others unless they get lots of money such as Japan.

The 6 Nations have played more games against the PIs, Japan, Georgia, US and Canada in this last WC cycle both home and away compared to others.

You keep banging that one out guns. How many had the experience and already earned dollars of Bundi aki, gaven anscombe, brad shields...long time captain of the hurricanes, now on englands roster.

And dozens more like it.

And youve named four, schoolboys.

As opposed to hundreds of fully fledged pros, wallabies, boks, All Blacks.

Why you persist when the anomoly is wider than the pacific is beyond me.

Brendan wrote:Do we know if SANZAR are serious about growing the game and making the championship 6 teams or was that only so there were equal numbers in each conference.

With alot of the reports coming out from down south it would seem that only the 6 Nations don't want to grow the game.  But I thing the facts on the ground will show that SANZAAR will continue to ignore others unless they get lots of money such as Japan.

The 6 Nations have played more games against the PIs, Japan, Georgia, US and Canada in this last WC cycle both home and away compared to others.

Any game involving the ABs is a big money spinner so I'm sure they would be reluctant in not having the return fixture format. The games not involving the ABs do tend to suffer attendance wise, so I'm sure they have to be worried about what kind of crowds an Aus v Japan or Arg v Fiji game would get.

Taylorman - the best Irish 15 only contains 1 player not born and bred in Ireland.
Which countries can match that?
Aki does not make the starting 15, and for many, myself included, the starting 23

Geoff, is this a result of the big push for project players in Ireland not being able to draw the players in? Ireland seem to be suffering both internationally and domestically. Maybe there’s less of a draw these days? A few players capped off the plane might help you guys like in the past.

You guys could do with a few like Stander being tempted in with big contracts.

geoff999rugby wrote:Taylorman - the best Irish 15 only contains 1 player not born and bred in Ireland.
Which countries can match that?
Aki does not make the starting 15, and for many, myself included, the starting 23

yes have seen that often and its credit to them.

They do have a NZ born and bred and professionally raised coach though. I think that makes a significant difference.

We might attract a few schoolboys into our system through scholarships but its hardly balanced considering  how many International coaches, and players we have out there doing it for other nations, clubs.

Isnt it a wonder we probably need to backfill in more ways than our own. four schoolboys? Really?

At this years world cup - hopefully- provided the ...yes...selfish... northern clubs...release them, a great number of them will have been born in NZ, learned their rugby here, before being whisked off to the north.

So yes, Ireland is doing well. But how well is it doing in terms of providing the numbers of players and coaches NZ is? Only SA, NZ and Oz are in that sort of position. Supply and demand demands there will be buyers, and sellers of the same product.

Thats a better comparison of where the two countries sit. And at the risk of pushing the NZ this and that again, I just want to show the true context of where each lies.

But back to your point, yes Ireland are playing a good, disciplined line, where internal growth is taking priority over dollars. Its really England, France and lately Japan that are dragging them in, and simply trying to develop alongside that.

And I can't complain about the careers available to our people, my stance is purely as a fan. If a family member were offered four or five times what theyre getting here I'd take them to the airport myself.

It does make you wonder why a nation that is only (internationally) known for one thing can’t pay wages to at least sustain their own players. You had ONE job.

Cyril wrote:It does make you wonder why a nation that is only (internationally) known for one thing can’t pay wages to at least sustain their own players. You had ONE job.

We can, we just can’t pay wages at the same levels of multiple other countries that are known for many things.
Or, you could ask with the number of countries already playing the sport in the north, why theyre not content with paying and watching their own players?

In fact theyre so unhappy with their own talent they send hundereds of millions off shore...to become happy.

Not sure who has the bigger issue there. But hey, as long as our people are getting paid by the truckload, we’ll just have to put up with it.

English and French clubs can’t turn a profit as they spend so much on wages. They’re probably tax dodging enterprises for their billionaire owners.

On the coaches front - Ireland provide a coach for a 6N side - Italy
The best team in the NH - Saracens
O'Gara has just been appointed as La Rochelle head coach - one of the best teams in France
The leading Welsh side - Ospreys

Geoff, have any of them expressed a desire to coach Ireland?

geoff999rugby wrote:On the coaches front - Ireland provide a coach for a 6N side - Italy
The best team in the NH - Saracens
O'Gara has just been appointed as La Rochelle head coach - one of the best teams in France
The leading Welsh side - Ospreys

Thats great. Is O’Gara seen as a favourable option as Ireland head coach? His transition from the saders to La Rochelle will be interesting, whether he wants to do anything similar to the Crusaders hes with till this weekend is it? Does he start with LaRochelle straight after the Saders.

For coaches, experiencing other cultures and styles is an important part of their progression. If they always stay in the same environment they will never learn and improve beyond a self-limiting threshold.

New Zealand have far too many coaches to keep them happy or indeed busy at home. Going north allows them to gain vital experience that can then be useful to the national set-up. For the last 19 years the Head Coach for the All Blacks has been a series of guys who had experience NH coaching positions prior to appointment. NZ coaches have been "ahead of the curve" in seeking out extra opportunities and this has benefited all concerned.

Similar things are now happening with NH coaches. With Mike Catt leaving Italy to move to Ireland the entire England RWC15 coaching panel will be in the "Emerald Isle" either at national or club level. Stuart Lancaster, a coach who has always been willing totravel to learn, has gained a lot from being at Leinster - but so have they. Andy Farrell is the new HC for the national team and maybe can be viewed as one who got away for England.

Ireland are an interesting one.  Conor O'Shea, who has never coached in Ireland, learnt the job first at London Irish, before working for teh RFU and winning the title with Quins is arguably is giving way more to Italian Rugby than he gets. Mark McCall has seriously enhanced his reputation since effectively being sacked by Ulster. ROG is globetrotting to gain experience, probably before replacing Farrell with Ireland in what would be his first coaching job in his home country.

I don't see O'Gara as an option as Ireland head coach right now. Too early days and it would be preferable if he coached in Ireland first like pretty much every other Irish coach before. Lets see how he gets on at La Rochelle. That will be a big test for him.

Of all the Irish coaches maybe Mark McCall would be the best option because he has a proven record as a head coach both in Ireland and abroad.

Taylorman wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:On the coaches front - Ireland provide a coach for a 6N side - Italy
The best team in the NH - Saracens
O'Gara has just been appointed as La Rochelle head coach - one of the best teams in France
The leading Welsh side - Ospreys

Thats great. Is O’Gara seen as a favourable option as Ireland head coach? His transition from the saders to La Rochelle will be interesting, whether he wants to do anything similar to the Crusaders hes with till this weekend is it? Does he start with LaRochelle straight after the Saders.

Too early for O'Gara but McCall and O'Shea have to be in the frame in the future
The only point I was making is Ireland have 1 national team and 4 Provincial/Club teams and are providing 4 coaches at that level; just not in Ireland.

So they are not quite pulling their weight but they are not far short.

LondonTiger wrote:   Mark McCall has seriously enhanced his reputation since effectively being sacked by Ulster. ROG is globetrotting to gain experience, probably before replacing Farrell with Ireland in what would be his first coaching job in his home country.

Saying Mark McCall was sacked by Ulster gives an incomplete impression of what occurred, but here is not the place to explain
O'Gara will not be ready for the Ireland job for a few years yet

there's just no substitute for experience. hadnt spotted ROG was taking over La Rochelle. good on him.

but i reckon a top tier national team coach needs to be at least 15years older than their players. they need to have no overlap with people they played with IMO to have the detachment necessary to just be a manager.

Yeah it didnt do Martin Johnson much good I reckon. Where is he now?

I think its more about the person than simply looking at the age gaps of coaches and their of the past and which worked.

I guess razor fits that model perfectly. Is young enough to have been a professional, winning as a player with the saders and 18-20 years later is coach.

That seems to work well, as he's not too old to have some of that boy in him as the players do, that connection as an 'older brother' rather than father, grandfather.

(Hansen, Schmidt, Jones werent performing horrid breakdance's when they win

Seismic as in Super Rugby takings are down and Gats I coming home to save the day.....apparnetly the people who really know think he will....you're most welcome.

Cyril wrote:Geoff, is this a result of the big push for project players in Ireland not being able to draw the players in? Ireland seem to be suffering both internationally and domestically. Maybe there’s less of a draw these days? A few players capped off the plane might help you guys like in the past.

You guys could do with a few like Stander being tempted in with big contracts.

The policy to have at least 2 Irish-qualified players in every position by reducing foreign capped players (who blocked development in positions particularly props) and continue to allow 3 approved uncapped project player - one per province - has largely been successful since the Player Succession Strategy (PSS) of 4+1 was rolled out in Dec 2011 for Leinster, Munster and Ulster (doesn’t apply to Connacht).    

Provincial need for players in particular positions didn’t match national needs and uncapped players often got nominated to the IRFU as projects/NIQ simply to get around the policy diktat but were never real prospects.  But they were a lot cheaper than foreign capped players who have largely gone to Eng, Fra and Japan.  

It’s ironic that following the launch of the PSS in 2011, the biggest number of residency-qualified players who’ve been test-capped have come from Connacht e.g. Nathan White, Rodney Ah You, Quinn Roux (accidentals) and Bundee Aki, whilst Munster (Stander) and Ulster (Payne) have had one each to date.  (Leinster had Strauss but he arrived before the PSS was put in place.)

Of the remaining batch who will residency qualify on 3 years before end Dec 2020, it looks like Jean Kleyn (picked ahead of Quinn Roux) might get a chance although he has stiff competition ahead of him, but like White and Ah You, a last-minute injury might create an opportunity.    

Gibson-Park who qualifies in August like Kleyn, didn’t make the cut for the RWC squad.    I’m not particularly convinced that Chris Cloete is anything special in the backrow to merit inclusion, nor Bleyendaal, who is already qualified but hasn’t been picked (injury did for his chances as much as anything else).  His team-mate, Rhys Marshall, will qualify in Nov this year, might possibly feature in Farrell’s thinking for next year’s 6N with Rory Best retired, but still has Cronin, Scannell, Herring and Tracy as his experienced options.  James Lowe has ongoing health problems, and might be the wrong age for a RWC 2023 squad by the time he’s qualified for test selection in Feb 2021.   He may yet get a big-money club offer from the JAFRENG clubs when his Leinster contract expires in June 2020 as he won’t be qualified at that point.

The IRFU changed its financing plans 3 seasons ago to spend less on foreign players, and invest more into the academies, (and also into IQ Rugby in the UK and now the USA) hence the number of foreign non-qualified players has dropped overall, and the foreign quotas in the provinces are not being filled.   You can see the same thing happening in Wales, Scotland and Italy now.   Boost the domestic supply and spend less money on uncapped foreign expertise - it’s more sustainable in the long-run for these unions.

They also don’t seem to attract (or possibly want) many PI-born players for some reason.  There are none in Ireland (which Tier 2 fans give out about) and only a small handful in the other four PRO14 unions.

Yes if there’s one thing Ireland and others in the NH would benefit massively from it would be to adopt the services of PI backs. Get the right ones then watch the tries come in. I don’t think in Aki and forgotten the English 12s name are the right ones. Speedsters on the wing, bigger midfielders or big looses, a la Billy V.

Those are where your next biggest gains would come from. You just won’t find players of that caliber locally. Stockdale is one, but probably a rare find. You need to add some ruthless raw natural talent with gas and power, and let them do their thing.

Jonny May is in the top few wingers in the world. Better than a 1 in 2 tries per Test and over a third of those against the RC sides.

Taylorman wrote:Yes if there’s one thing Ireland and others in the NH would benefit massively from it would be to adopt the services of PI backs. Get the right ones then watch the tries come in. I don’t think in Aki and forgotten the English 12s name are the right ones. Speedsters on the wing, bigger midfielders or big looses, a la Billy V.

Those are where your next biggest gains would come from. You just won’t find players of that caliber locally. Stockdale is one, but probably a rare find. You need to add some ruthless raw natural talent with gas and power, and let them do their thing.

Don’t think we need them really, Tman.  And that’s assuming they even want to come here - and I don’t think they do - 93% of them outside NZ/Aus are in France and England.   Current policy is better.  Foreign stocks are being reduced and as you say Aki or Te’o are not really it either.  Better to develop the homegrown ones like Stockdale and others within the PRO14 clubs for SA, Italy, Ireland, Wales and Scotland.   There’s more coming through at domestic level.  The JAFRENG private clubs and Aus/NZ franchises are more suited to the PI-born players.  That’s where the vast majority are playing now anyway.

I think PI players are too unpredictable/maybe a little bit undisciplined to survive in Irish rugby. Its interesting to listen to what former Ireland players like ROG and POC have to say about coaching in France and the sort of casual attitude to training and fitness. ROG, while on holiday enjoying Figi, tweeted to a Fijian player that he now understands why he turned up 3 days late for training! You would not get away with that kind of carry on in any of the Provinces.

I think thats a bit of a generalisation Sin, no?

Collapse2005 wrote:I think thats a bit of a generalisation Sin, no?

No, I don't think so. Islanders (and those kiwis of islander heritage) are very laid back. All very likeable though. We've had a few at Munster.

Sin é wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:I think thats a bit of a generalisation Sin, no?

No, I don't think so. Islanders (and those kiwis of islander heritage) are very laid back. All very likeable though. We've had a few at Munster.

Do you not think Aki is very professional? I doubt he would be the sort to turn up late to training.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:I think thats a bit of a generalisation Sin, no?

No, I don't think so. Islanders (and those kiwis of islander heritage) are very laid back. All very likeable though. We've had a few at Munster.

Do you not think Aki is very professional? I doubt he would be the sort to turn up late to training.

Who knows? I would have thought Nakarawa would have been very professional. This is ROG's tweet:

Ronan O Gara
‏Verified account @RonanOGara10
Apr 15

Bula Bula.⁦@J_Rokocoko⁩ ⁦@manasamataele14⁩ ⁦@vvakatawa⁩ #LeoneNakarawa #SevuReece
Fijitime.. no hurry no worry.. Now I understand why you come back 3 days late Leone!!! It’s a miracle it’s only 3 days.. absolute paradise#Leonethegreat.

Intersting, Sin.

Haven't really thought about it before, bar noticing the trend in the player-born figures, but i wonder why they don't employ the PI players - has any Irish rugby journalist ever asked the question?

Pot Hale wrote:Intersting, Sin.

Haven't really thought about it before, bar noticing the trend in the player-born figures, but i wonder why they don't employ the PI players - has any Irish rugby journalist ever asked the question?

They seem to gravitate to France - possibly weather related! Personally, I've always been a bit worried about some of their tackling techniques as well.

Sin é wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:Intersting, Sin.

Haven't really thought about it before, bar noticing the trend in the player-born figures, but i wonder why they don't employ the PI players - has any Irish rugby journalist ever asked the question?

They seem to gravitate to France - possibly weather related! Personally, I've always been a bit worried about some of their tackling techniques as well.

A bit like Stockdale

Sin é wrote:I think PI players are too unpredictable/maybe a little bit undisciplined to survive in Irish rugby. Its interesting to listen to what former Ireland players like ROG and POC have to say about coaching in France and the sort of casual attitude to training and fitness. ROG, while on holiday enjoying Figi, tweeted to a Fijian player that he now understands why he turned up 3 days late for training! You would not get away with that kind of carry on in any of the Provinces.

Geez, so very very wrong on many accounts. Havent heard that for thirty years.its like saying all Irish are leprechauns. They aren’t?

‘To survive’ Irish rugby. Ha ha. It was hard enough to survive watching it all those years. The pain of it all. If anything an injection of PI rugby would lighten you guts up a bit, show you how to actually run and pass the ball.

Sin é wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:I think thats a bit of a generalisation Sin, no?

No, I don't think so. Islanders (and those kiwis of islander heritage) are very laid back. All very likeable though. We've had a few at Munster.

Do you not think Aki is very professional? I doubt he would be the sort to turn up late to training.

Who knows? I would have thought Nakarawa would have been very professional. This is ROG's tweet:

Ronan O Gara
‏Verified account @RonanOGara10
Apr 15

Bula Bula.⁦@J_Rokocoko⁩ ⁦@manasamataele14⁩ ⁦@vvakatawa⁩ #LeoneNakarawa #SevuReece
Fijitime.. no hurry no worry.. Now I understand why you come back 3 days late Leone!!! It’s a miracle it’s only 3 days.. absolute paradise#Leonethegreat.

So his praise of the sun and sand, no doubt being used to the cold and misery of his homeland, is translated as PIs are lazy trainers. Got it. Is racism not understood in your parts perhaps?

Its 9pm and 19 degrees in Dublin right now. Im roasting.

19 is hardly roasting unless you’re ginger (anyway, enough of the lazy stereotypes).

Maybe Cyril or Tman you could offer some insight as to why.
Without the wisecracks.

Why mainly the JAFRENG clubs? Are they too expensive? Not suited to style?

Collapse2005 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:Intersting, Sin.

Haven't really thought about it before, bar noticing the trend in the player-born figures, but i wonder why they don't employ the PI players - has any Irish rugby journalist ever asked the question?

They seem to gravitate to France - possibly weather related! Personally, I've always been a bit worried about some of their tackling techniques as well.

A bit like Stockdale

No, not like Stockdale. More the likelihood for decapitating someone when attempting a tackle.

Cyril wrote:19 is hardly roasting unless you’re ginger (anyway, enough of the lazy stereotypes).

It is if you are already hot

Taylorman wrote:

Sin é wrote:I think PI players are too unpredictable/maybe a little bit undisciplined to survive in Irish rugby. Its interesting to listen to what former Ireland players like ROG and POC have to say about coaching in France and the sort of casual attitude to training and fitness. ROG, while on holiday enjoying Figi, tweeted to a Fijian player that he now understands why he turned up 3 days late for training! You would not get away with that kind of carry on in any of the Provinces.

Geez, so very very wrong on many accounts. Havent heard that for thirty years.its like saying all Irish are leprechauns. They aren’t?

‘To survive’ Irish rugby. Ha ha. It was hard enough to survive watching it all those years. The pain of it all. If anything an injection of PI rugby would lighten you guts up a bit, show you how to actually run and pass the ball.

Pretty much every coach says that the Irish players are very disciplined and look after their diet etc. You will get comments about Simon Zebo (who wasn't known to be a great trainer) now looking a bit out of condition now that he is in a French club.

Taylorman wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:I think thats a bit of a generalisation Sin, no?

No, I don't think so. Islanders (and those kiwis of islander heritage) are very laid back. All very likeable though. We've had a few at Munster.

Do you not think Aki is very professional? I doubt he would be the sort to turn up late to training.

Who knows? I would have thought Nakarawa would have been very professional. This is ROG's tweet:

Ronan O Gara
‏Verified account @RonanOGara10
Apr 15

Bula Bula.⁦@J_Rokocoko⁩ ⁦@manasamataele14⁩ ⁦@vvakatawa⁩ #LeoneNakarawa #SevuReece
Fijitime.. no hurry no worry.. Now I understand why you come back 3 days late Leone!!! It’s a miracle it’s only 3 days.. absolute paradise#Leonethegreat.

So his praise of the sun and sand, no doubt being used to the cold and misery of his homeland, is translated as PIs are lazy trainers. Got it. Is racism not understood in your parts perhaps?

Not sure what you are trying to say here! Most people think the weather can be quite challening in Ireland, particularly on the west coast.

What is this JAFRENG, Pot?

Sin é wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:I think thats a bit of a generalisation Sin, no?

No, I don't think so. Islanders (and those kiwis of islander heritage) are very laid back. All very likeable though. We've had a few at Munster.

Do you not think Aki is very professional? I doubt he would be the sort to turn up late to training.

Who knows? I would have thought Nakarawa would have been very professional. This is ROG's tweet:

Ronan O Gara
‏Verified account @RonanOGara10
Apr 15

Bula Bula.⁦@J_Rokocoko⁩ ⁦@manasamataele14⁩ ⁦@vvakatawa⁩ #LeoneNakarawa #SevuReece
Fijitime.. no hurry no worry.. Now I understand why you come back 3 days late Leone!!! It’s a miracle it’s only 3 days.. absolute paradise#Leonethegreat.

So his praise of the sun and sand, no doubt being used to the cold and misery of his homeland, is translated as PIs are lazy trainers. Got it. Is racism not understood in your parts perhaps?

Not sure what you are trying to say here! Most people think the weather can be quite challening in Ireland, particularly on the west coast.

Well ROG seems to think it’s a miracle someone can leave the sun and sand at all.
Anyway, point being that you don’t lump several cultures in a general group of ‘lazy’.
Irish players may be disciplined.. every one I’m assuming... doesn’t mean they’re talented. If there’s any generalising about PI players it’s that on a per capita basis for their bloodline, they represent by far the best players in rugby.

Cyril wrote:What is this JAFRENG, Pot?

Yes, sounds like a Unix component.

Sin é wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:Intersting, Sin.

Haven't really thought about it before, bar noticing the trend in the player-born figures, but i wonder why they don't employ the PI players - has any Irish rugby journalist ever asked the question?

They seem to gravitate to France - possibly weather related! Personally, I've always been a bit worried about some of their tackling techniques as well.

A bit like Stockdale

No, not like Stockdale. More the likelihood for decapitating someone when attempting a tackle.

Oh, you mean like SOB knocking that PI Naholo out? Gotcha.
Though mako sure fits that label.

Taylorman wrote:I think its more about the person than simply looking at the age gaps of coaches and their of the past and which worked.

I guess razor fits that model perfectly. Is young enough to have been a professional, winning as a player with the saders and 18-20 years later is coach....

NZ Herald writer speculating that Robertson could call on O'Gara if he gets the NZ job.

O'Gara has given such value during his two years at the Crusaders alongside Robertson, and the pair have become so closely aligned, that it's not too difficult to imagine them both coaching the All Blacks at some stage and probably fairly soon.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=12247099

Rugby Fan wrote:

Taylorman wrote:I think its more about the person than simply looking at the age gaps of coaches and their of the past and which worked.

I guess razor fits that model perfectly. Is young enough to have been a professional, winning as a player with the saders and 18-20 years later is coach....

NZ Herald writer speculating that Robertson could call on O'Gara if he gets the NZ job.

O'Gara has given such value during his two years at the Crusaders alongside Robertson, and the pair have become so closely aligned, that it's not too difficult to imagine them both coaching the All Blacks at some stage and probably fairly soon.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=12247099

That’s a nice article about O’Gara and his time in NZ. Sounds like he made a positive difference to the team so good on him. But I’d be very surprised if he was brought into the ABs fold. He’s not committed to NZ in the long-run so it wouldn’t be a good investment even though he’s shown he can be a valued member of a NZ setup.