Club vs Country? NH vs SH? Seismic change?

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Post by quinsforever on Tue 21 May 2019, 9:21 pm

First topic message reminder :

Big meeting in the next 24 hours

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/48348250

Personally, i hope this initiative never gets off the ground.

Grassroots support and participation are the genesis of quality rugby players. Australia are lacking so should the rest of the world bail them out financially so they can recruit from Aus League? Hell no IMO.

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Post by Taylorman on Sat 06 Jul 2019, 1:58 am

Yes ROGs really taken to the Crusaders and Razor will be AB coach for certain, it’s just a matter of when. Gats is now out of contention so depending on where Schmidt, razor fit in the scheme of things, could be fozzie with Schmidt on the panel. Fozzie looks more possible as we hear nothing.

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Post by Pot Hale on Sat 06 Jul 2019, 2:52 am

Cyril wrote:What is this JAFRENG, Pot?

The private clubs from those countries obviously. Where practically all the professional PI-born players play outside of Aus/NZ.
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Post by Rugby Fan on Sat 06 Jul 2019, 7:39 am

Taylorman wrote:Yes ROGs really taken to the Crusaders and Razor will be AB coach for certain, it’s just a matter of when. Gats is now out of contention so depending on where Schmidt, razor fit in the scheme of things, could be fozzie with Schmidt on the panel. Fozzie looks more possible as we hear nothing.
Aside from Mick Byrne, and Clark Laidlaw in the sevens, has the NZRU employed any other overseas coaches to work in the All Blacks set-up?

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Post by Sin é on Sat 06 Jul 2019, 11:06 am

Taylorman wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:I think thats a bit of a generalisation Sin, no?

No, I don't think so. Islanders (and those kiwis of islander heritage) are very laid back. All very likeable though. We've had a few at Munster.

Do you not think Aki is very professional? I doubt he would be the sort to turn up late to training.
Who knows? I would have thought Nakarawa would have been very professional. This is ROG's tweet:

Ronan O Gara
‏Verified account @RonanOGara10
Apr 15

Bula Bula.⁦@J_Rokocoko⁩ ⁦@manasamataele14⁩ ⁦@vvakatawa⁩ #LeoneNakarawa #SevuReece
Fijitime.. no hurry no worry.. Now I understand why you come back 3 days late Leone!!! It’s a miracle it’s only 3 days.. 😜😜absolute paradise👌🏻🏉☀☀#Leonethegreat.

So his praise of the sun and sand, no doubt being used to the cold and misery of his homeland, is translated as PIs are lazy trainers. Got it. Is racism not understood in your parts perhaps?

Not sure what you are trying to say here! Most people think the weather can be quite challening in Ireland, particularly on the west coast.

Well ROG seems to think it’s a miracle someone can leave the sun and sand at all.
Anyway, point being that you don’t lump several cultures in a general group of ‘lazy’.
Irish players may be disciplined.. every one I’m assuming... doesn’t mean they’re talented. If there’s any generalising about PI players it’s that on a per capita basis for their bloodline, they represent by far the best players in rugby.

You are the only one lumping anyone into the 'lazy' bracket, by equating ''laid back'' = ''lazy'' An no one said they were not talented.
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Post by ebop on Sat 06 Jul 2019, 11:13 am

You did say ‘maybe a little bit undisciplined to survive in Irish rugby’. This conjures up images of Ireland and East Germany. Do rugby players have fun in Ireland or are they forced to play staid rugby?
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Post by Sin é on Sat 06 Jul 2019, 11:37 am

Taylorman wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:Intersting, Sin.

Haven't really thought about it before, bar noticing the trend in the player-born figures, but i wonder why they don't employ the PI players - has any Irish rugby journalist ever asked the question?

They seem to gravitate to France - possibly weather related! Personally, I've always been a bit worried about some of their tackling techniques as well.



A bit like Stockdale

No, not like Stockdale. More the likelihood for decapitating someone when attempting a tackle.

Oh, you mean like SOB knocking that PI Naholo out? Gotcha.
Though mako sure fits that label.

I was thinking more like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9U227_GpgO0

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Post by ebop on Sat 06 Jul 2019, 11:42 am

Sin é wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:Intersting, Sin.

Haven't really thought about it before, bar noticing the trend in the player-born figures, but i wonder why they don't employ the PI players - has any Irish rugby journalist ever asked the question?

They seem to gravitate to France - possibly weather related! Personally, I've always been a bit worried about some of their tackling techniques as well.



A bit like Stockdale

No, not like Stockdale. More the likelihood for decapitating someone when attempting a tackle.

Oh, you mean like SOB knocking that PI Naholo out? Gotcha.
Though mako sure fits that label.

I was thinking more like this:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9U227_GpgO0

Is that Jamie Heaslip kneeing someone in the head?
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Post by Sin é on Sat 06 Jul 2019, 11:44 am

ebop wrote:You did say ‘maybe a little bit undisciplined to survive in Irish rugby’. This conjures up images of Ireland and East Germany. Do rugby players have fun in Ireland or are they forced to play staid rugby?

They are expected to turn up to training on time and train. Schmidt is very much the disciplinarian. Ask Simon Zebo about him.

And as we are talking about Zebo - here is what Ronan O'Gara had to say about him:

..... People need to understand and appreciate different culture. His father is from Martinique, not Ballydehob. If playing to the crowd gets his juices flowing, then I’m all for it. This guy is good stuff.

I can understand if there is a management doubt there at the moment because for the first 12 months I knew him I had no time for Zebo either — I thought he was lazy, soft, and weak. But then when you take him under your wing, he grows. He’s not a fella who likes the cane. He listens, but he’ll test you to the max. He walks away from you and you’re wondering whether this fella is tuned into what you are saying at all. But he’s got it. And that pace of his is rapid. He is worth love-bombing.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/columnists/ronan-ogara/a-story-about-earlsie-and-zebowe-299945.html

ROG has also said that Dan Carter was a real role model in Racing because he turned up on time and trained very hard even though he was Dan Carter. French players are also known to be a bit laid back as well.
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Post by ebop on Sat 06 Jul 2019, 11:51 am

Who didn’t turn up to train, Leone? Who is that?
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Post by ebop on Sat 06 Jul 2019, 11:56 am

Can imagine Dan Carter being a role model to someone like O’Gara because he probably taught him how you can be elite and laid back at the same time. O’Gara always seemed highly-strung when he played. His NZ journey has probably been a good thing for him personally as he’s got to see what makes a NZers tick and given an insight into our success.
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Post by Sin é on Sat 06 Jul 2019, 11:57 am

ebop wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:Intersting, Sin.

Haven't really thought about it before, bar noticing the trend in the player-born figures, but i wonder why they don't employ the PI players - has any Irish rugby journalist ever asked the question?

They seem to gravitate to France - possibly weather related! Personally, I've always been a bit worried about some of their tackling techniques as well.



A bit like Stockdale

No, not like Stockdale. More the likelihood for decapitating someone when attempting a tackle.

Oh, you mean like SOB knocking that PI Naholo out? Gotcha.
Though mako sure fits that label.

I was thinking more like this:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9U227_GpgO0

Is that Jamie Heaslip kneeing someone in the head?

No. It was a tackle by Mafi which was rewarded with a yellow card (Sexton was later cited for kicking him). Mafi got 10 yellow cards while with Munster (which isn't great for the team).
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Post by Sin é on Sat 06 Jul 2019, 12:04 pm

ebop wrote:Who didn’t turn up to train, Leone? Who is that?

Leone Nakarawa (2018 European Player of the Year)!

Rupeni Caucaunibuca was also another great player known for disappearing every now and again.
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Post by Sin é on Sat 06 Jul 2019, 12:07 pm

ebop wrote:Can imagine Dan Carter being a role model to someone like O’Gara because he probably taught him how you can be elite and laid back at the same time. O’Gara always seemed highly-strung when he played. His NZ journey has probably been a good thing for him personally as he’s got to see what makes a NZers tick and given an insight into our success.

Plenty of Kiwis over here to understand how they tick. Joe Schmidt may look laid back, but he isn't. And most agree that Scott Robertson isn't like your average kiwi coach.

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Post by ebop on Sat 06 Jul 2019, 12:24 pm

Sin é wrote:
ebop wrote:Can imagine Dan Carter being a role model to someone like O’Gara because he probably taught him how you can be elite and laid back at the same time. O’Gara always seemed highly-strung when he played. His NZ journey has probably been a good thing for him personally as he’s got to see what makes a NZers tick and given an insight into our success.

Plenty of Kiwis over here to understand how they tick. Joe Schmidt may look laid back, but he isn't. And most agree that Scott Robertson isn't like your average kiwi coach.

No. There’s not many kiwis over there and the kiwis that are have zero influence on local culture. Unless we’re talking rugby. I’m talking about O’Gara living and breathing kiwi all day every day and this will shape his future self. He might now understand why a Dan Carter happened. Maybe why NZ is the best rugby playing nation on the planet. Good on him, he made the effort and sacrificed money to coach in NZ, and it’ll serve him well.

Razor Robertson is a pretty laid back dude, are you saying otherwise?
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Post by Collapse2005 on Sat 06 Jul 2019, 12:38 pm

Robertson is laid back it seems. Schmidt, Henry and Hanson arent in my view. Gatland isnt really either. Not sure Id describe Robbie Deans as laid back either.

Being laid back isnt necessarly the be all and end all. Van Der Weisthuisen for me was one of the best players of all time. Wouldnt describe him as laid back but rather restless.


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Post by Sin é on Sat 06 Jul 2019, 12:40 pm

ebop wrote:
Sin é wrote:
ebop wrote:Can imagine Dan Carter being a role model to someone like O’Gara because he probably taught him how you can be elite and laid back at the same time. O’Gara always seemed highly-strung when he played. His NZ journey has probably been a good thing for him personally as he’s got to see what makes a NZers tick and given an insight into our success.

Plenty of Kiwis over here to understand how they tick. Joe Schmidt may look laid back, but he isn't. And most agree that Scott Robertson isn't like your average kiwi coach.

No. There’s not many kiwis over there and the kiwis that are have zero influence on local culture. Unless we’re talking rugby. I’m talking about O’Gara living and breathing kiwi all day every day and this will shape his future self. He might now understand why a Dan Carter happened. Maybe why NZ is the best rugby playing nation on the planet. Good on him, he made the effort and sacrificed money to coach in NZ, and it’ll serve him well.

Razor Robertson is a pretty laid back dude, are you saying otherwise?

I'm really not sure what you are getting at here? That ROG will learn how to be laid back because he has spent about 18 months out of his life of about 40 years in New Zealand.

Nope. Razor is not your typical Kiwi coach who are far from being laid back. He also seems to be humble like many of the great Kiwi players such as Carter and Howlett, and completely different to their fans in that regard.

Edit: Howlett has certainly had influence on local culture - he is part of the Cork hurling team coaching staff this year (voluntary position).


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Post by Collapse2005 on Sat 06 Jul 2019, 12:48 pm

Just by being in NZ rugby greatness and amazing laid backness will elevate Rog to immorality. Very humble the Kiwis, not.

As Pot said quite a Munster like performance from the Saders. Rog definitely made a contribution it seems.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Sat 06 Jul 2019, 12:54 pm

Robertson gets bonus points for his dancing from me. love it

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Post by ebop on Sat 06 Jul 2019, 12:57 pm

Sin é wrote:I'm really not sure what you are getting at here? That ROG will learn how to be laid back because he has spent about 18 months out of his life of about 40 years in New Zealand.
Not saying O’Gara will ‘learn’ but he has been exposed to the culture. It’s up to him how he deals with the experience. By all accounts it’s been big. Good luck to the guy in Europe.
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Post by ebop on Sat 06 Jul 2019, 1:12 pm

Sin é wrote:Edit: Howlett has certainly had influence on local culture - he is part of the Cork hurling team coaching staff this year (voluntary position).
Hasn’t Doug moved back to NZ? I know Isa Nacewa has. Most do in the end.
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Post by Collapse2005 on Sat 06 Jul 2019, 1:14 pm

Brent Pope and Andy Ward still here

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Post by Sin é on Sat 06 Jul 2019, 1:20 pm

ebop wrote:
Sin é wrote:Edit: Howlett has certainly had influence on local culture - he is part of the Cork hurling team coaching staff this year (voluntary position).
Hasn’t Doug moved back to NZ? I know Isa Nacewa has. Most do in the end.

He is moving back later this year after 11 years in Ireland (4 of his five kids were born here). After rugby, he did an MBA in UCC and is now Munster's Commercial and Marketing Director. They are moving back for the usual reasons - family back home. Similar with the O'Garas - want to be close to parents who are getting on a bit now.
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Post by Rugby Fan on Sat 06 Jul 2019, 1:53 pm

"Laid back" and "lazy" can't capture even a fraction of the complex experience of being a Pacific island rugby player in Europe.

Dan Leo has given a number of lengthy interviews about the cultural, personal, financial and sporting hurdles many have faced. Well worth a listen if you can catch one. It seems quite a few were just left to their own devices, with little support, and succumbed to booze and/or depression. Most are unprepared for the pressure of being the money-earner for a huge network back home. On top of that, many have no real experience of dealing with everyday expat matters like taxes, TV and driving licences, and household budgets.

It's not surprisng a few of these players developed reputations for being unreliable.

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Post by Pot Hale on Sat 06 Jul 2019, 3:17 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:"Laid back" and "lazy" can't capture even a fraction of the complex experience of being a Pacific island rugby player in Europe.

Dan Leo has given a number of lengthy interviews about the cultural, personal, financial and sporting hurdles many have faced. Well worth a listen if you can catch one. It seems quite a few were just left to their own devices, with little support, and succumbed to booze and/or depression. Most are unprepared for the pressure of being the money-earner for a huge network back home. On top of that, many have no real experience of dealing with everyday expat matters like taxes, TV and driving licences, and household budgets.

It's not surprisng a few of these players developed reputations for being unreliable.

Interesting RF. So do you think there are better support systems for PI-born players in Jap/Fr/Eng clubs?
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Post by Rugby Fan on Sat 06 Jul 2019, 3:57 pm

Pot Hale wrote:Interesting RF.   So do you think there are better support systems for PI-born players in Jap/Fr/Eng clubs?
Dan Leo's main criticism was for France and England, which is where he had his playing experience. I know from other sources that Japan can be a difficult place for all players, not just Pacific Islanders. Even overseas players of the stature of George Smith and Jerry Collins went a bit mad in Japan, and had trouble with the police.

On the back of no evidence at all, I'd imagine Wales and Ireland might be easier places for islanders to settle, as players are less likely to be left on their own. I remember Andy Farrell saying when he first took a job in Ireland, after England, he was invited round to someone's house (forget who) and in no time at all, the host's brothers had dropped by too. Farrell liked that, saying it immediately made him feel welcome, and at home.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Sat 06 Jul 2019, 4:48 pm

In a way Farrell was home though

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Post by Taylorman on Sat 06 Jul 2019, 9:06 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
Taylorman wrote:Yes ROGs really taken to the Crusaders and Razor will be AB coach for certain, it’s just a matter of when. Gats is now out of contention so depending on where Schmidt, razor fit in the scheme of things, could be fozzie with Schmidt on the panel. Fozzie looks more possible as we hear nothing.
Aside from Mick Byrne, and Clark Laidlaw in the sevens, has the NZRU employed any other overseas coaches to work in the All Blacks set-up?

Thats a good point, hard to know what the focus is on sevens in NZ these days. Theres not a lot of it outside the two top sides. Theyre off the 15s ‘path’ slightly so its as though theyve left it to those that have a stonger sevens focus, since Gordon tietjens, who had them forever it seems.

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