Club vs Country? NH vs SH? Seismic change?

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Post by quinsforever on Tue May 21, 2019 9:21 pm

First topic message reminder :

Big meeting in the next 24 hours

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/48348250

Personally, i hope this initiative never gets off the ground.

Grassroots support and participation are the genesis of quality rugby players. Australia are lacking so should the rest of the world bail them out financially so they can recruit from Aus League? Hell no IMO.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:32 am

Lot of respect for Super Rugby today, with the Chiefs and Crusaders playing a match in Suva. It helps that the large crowd have seen an entertaining first half, as the Crusaders went 20-0 up only for the Chiefs to score 19 points themselves.


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Post by ebop on Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:23 am

Wow, what an epic game in Fiji, one of the best. Awesome Suva crowd, they deserve more internationals than they get.
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Post by Rugby Fan on Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:23 am

That was some match.

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Post by Taylorman on Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:05 pm

Yes, Chiefs fullback ran 191 meters as well. When did that last happen in a Northern club or other match I wonder? thumbsup

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:08 pm

No idea.whats the answer?

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Post by Collapse2005 on Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:36 pm

Anyone care? Didnt think so.

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:41 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:Anyone care? Didnt think so.

Well we keep being told FB metres are cheap metres caused by poor kicking. 

For what it is worth:
https://punditarena.com/rugby/smcmahon/larmour-performance-italy-dagg-record/

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Post by Taylorman on Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:02 am

Collapse2005 wrote:Anyone care? Didnt think so.

Exactly my point. Laugh

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Post by Irish Londoner on Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:27 am

Taylorman wrote:Yes, Chiefs fullback ran 191 meters as well. When did that last happen in a Northern club or other match I wonder? thumbsup

So he can't even run as far as Usain Bolt, big deal !

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Post by Collapse2005 on Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:53 am

The game was nice to watch a bit like a Babas game but its only possible if neither teams defense shows up. Id be more worried if I was an ABs fan that the quality of defending simply wasnt up to stratch particularly Mo'unga who seemed fairly dozy in defense and given that these two teams a key providers to the ABs. Having picked up a couple of recent losses the Crusaders are possibly going through a bit of a lull which may not be great for the ABs either. Read looks finished too.

It really was the sort of defending you tend to see only in exhibition games so I wouldnt be that excited if I was an ABs fan. Each of the three times the ABs won the RWC their defensive stats were significantly better than all years the failed to win the RWC in terms of points conceded.


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Post by Rugby Fan on Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:19 am

There's a book coming out in late August by Michael Aylwin and Mark Evans. Aylwin is rugby writer for The Guardian, while Evans was director of rugby at Saracens, CEO of Quins, and CEO of Melbourne Storm. He now runs a sports consultancy, and the UK netball league. It's very likely that the book showcases Evans' ideas on the future of the sport, with Aylwin doing the research and writing donkey work.

https://www.waterstones.com/book/unholy-union/mike-aylwin/9781472130693

Evans has been on a few podcasts lately. Journalists like him, because he's one of the few people with who can talk relatively eloquently about rugby in the context of global sporting economics.

Some of the decisions about the global game may well have been taken by the time the book is published but it is Evan's main contention that rugby is at a tipping point which will determine whether it can grow, or if it shrinks back to being a niche sport, with some rugby nations throwing in the towel.

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Post by Taylorman on Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:49 am

Collapse2005 wrote:The game was nice to watch a bit like a Babas game but its only possible if neither teams defense shows up. Id be more worried if I was an ABs fan that the quality of defending simply wasnt up to stratch particularly Mo'unga who seemed fairly dozy in defense and given that these two teams a key providers to the ABs. Having picked up a couple of recent losses the Crusaders are possibly going through a bit of a lull which may not be great for the ABs either. Read looks finished too.

It really was the sort of defending you tend to see only in exhibition games so I wouldnt be that excited if I was an ABs fan. Each of the three times the ABs won the RWC their defensive stats were significantly better than all years the failed to win the RWC in terms of points conceded.

Interesting youre the only one that has that view. And what you saw was NZ teams defending NZ attacking teams. They wont have to do that at World cup time...you really think there are sides capable of the sort of attacking quality of either the Saders or Chiefs? I doubt it.
Nothing wrong with our defence, last two world cups proved that emphatically. Tries only scored when a man was off the field.

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Post by Taylorman on Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:51 am

Irish Londoner wrote:
Taylorman wrote:Yes, Chiefs fullback ran 191 meters as well. When did that last happen in a Northern club or other match I wonder? thumbsup

So he can't even run as far as Usain Bolt, big deal !

True, but unlike bolt he doesnt leave the ball behind.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:34 pm

Taylorman wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:The game was nice to watch a bit like a Babas game but its only possible if neither teams defense shows up. Id be more worried if I was an ABs fan that the quality of defending simply wasnt up to stratch particularly Mo'unga who seemed fairly dozy in defense and given that these two teams a key providers to the ABs. Having picked up a couple of recent losses the Crusaders are possibly going through a bit of a lull which may not be great for the ABs either. Read looks finished too.

It really was the sort of defending you tend to see only in exhibition games so I wouldnt be that excited if I was an ABs fan. Each of the three times the ABs won the RWC their defensive stats were significantly better than all years the failed to win the RWC in terms of points conceded.

Interesting youre the only one that has that view. And what you saw was NZ teams defending NZ attacking teams. They wont have to do that at World cup time...you really think there are sides capable of the sort of attacking quality of either the Saders or Chiefs? I doubt it.
Nothing wrong with our defence, last two world cups proved that emphatically. Tries only scored when a man was off the field.

Lol, Im definitely not the only one. Some Kiwi journos are saying the same.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:38 pm

Mark Voice of reason Reason agrees with me

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/opinion/113211129/mark-reason-all-blacks-can-kiss-the-world-cup-goodbye-if-they-tackle-like-that

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Post by Taylorman on Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:43 pm

Yes Sorry, and probably the other anti kiwi idiot Stephen Jones. Puts us in good stead. Odd though how the number of tries scored against any AB side is low. Right up until the last test. And those same players were involved. How..... does that work? As I said, it’s only kiwis scoring against their own. Laugh

Our Super rugby sides play the game the way its meant to be played. Positively, with an emphasis on winning through attack, fun and crowd enjoyment.

From that, some northerners typically extract a defensive flaw and a basketball match, because its predominantly the way they think about the game. So your comments don't surprise. Its what separates the two. But if you think the ABs will be defensively weak at World cup time...good luck with that.

Ireland were hardly the fortress vs Argentina last world cup.

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Post by Cyril on Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:36 pm

Taylorman, can you please not assume that all NH fans are as anti-NZ as Guns (Collapse). It just fuels an SH vs NH crapfest on here. I don’t know why he brings it up all the time, but please don’t make it worse.

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Post by Taylorman on Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:47 am

Cyril wrote:Taylorman, can you please not assume that all NH fans are as anti-NZ as Guns (Collapse). It just fuels an SH vs NH crapfest on here. I don’t know why he brings it up all the time, but please don’t make it worse.

yeah good point. Heres hoping theres a lot more of the saders Chiefs type matches in this game than less. Think its happening in Pro 14 et all anyway.

That makes this years World cup interesting. What percentage of the northern gameplan will be consumed by 'actually trying to score tries through use of open space'. I think it will be higher this year than previously. SH all want tries anyway though SA is in a similar boat as say, England. Once front heavy and percentage, watching their Super sides they are more full of running than ever.

Irelands plan of trying to control the possession and territory will fall flat in Japan so Schmidt needs some desperate changes in attack.

England and Wales have better chances. Gats is doing a lot of things right these days, and its showing where it counts...on the scoreboard.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:39 am

I appreciate its just more of your thinly veiled attacks on Ireland and this collapse Taylor but it's interesting you find Wales entertaining. Wouldn't be the sort of game plan I'd expect you to like.

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Post by Taylorman on Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:46 am

Yep Wales look the most balanced side with good strengths across the side. They dont rely on ‘gimmicks’...Farrells kicking, Irelands starving sides of the ball, both of which if they dont work present troubles for the side.

Ireland for instance, struggle to score from behind against the stronger sides because most of what they do with the plethora of ball isnt about creativity on attack, its more about killing time. So when they need to be more creative, they’re not able to tune in as a unit to do so.

Happened in 2015 and several times since. Argie got well in front. Ireland had no answer.

Englands strengths are its pedigree in this tournament, and possibly the most after redemption after 2015.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:48 am

I mean nice wum again but side stepped that a bit Taylor. You enjoy Wales style of play?

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Post by Collapse2005 on Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:27 am

was a bit surprised watching the gane that the Crusaders defense was so bad given that it has been pretty good this year. Maybe their contraversial tour to SA has had an impact on them? Maybe like all good sides they are on the wane, like Leinster. Wasnt surprised with the chiefs as their defense is consistently bad. When I saw them play in Velez Sarsfield earlier this year it really stood out how both sides would go to sleep in defense.

Might be wrong but the more I see of him the more I suspect Mo'unga will be one of those guys who promises a lot, great for his club but doesnt quite make it for his country a bit like Soapaga.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:23 am

Think it's always going to be hard to settle straight away on the other side of the world. Generally for me seems to be exception to the rule when you see a player take to it like a duck to water.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:45 am

Are you talking about Sopoaga's form at Wasps? I agree but what I was talking about really was how he didnt make it for the ABs. He started at OH for them in a Bledisloe cup match loss and never really made it back in the side.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:47 am

I was more talking about wasps but New Zealand generally have the same issue as England. Too much choice means you can get dragged into moving on to see how the next guy copes too quickly.

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Post by R!skysports on Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:50 am

Cyril wrote:Taylorman, can you please not assume that all NH fans are as anti-NZ as Guns (Collapse). It just fuels an SH vs NH crapfest on here. I don’t know why he brings it up all the time, but please don’t make it worse.

In fairness - I think the continued poking the NH teams at every opportunity does not help

i.e.

"Yes, Chiefs fullback ran 191 meters as well. When did that last happen in a Northern club or other match I wonder?

Taylorman


"

Anyway, the All Blacks defence will be a lot tighter than this, as club to country is very different

I would point out Scotland nd Glasgow does play the exciting style of Rugby - just not quite as good at it yet lol

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Post by Collapse2005 on Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:50 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:I was more talking about wasps but New Zealand generally have the same issue as England. Too much choice means you can get dragged into moving on to see how the next guy copes too quickly.

That may be so alright although in recent years there has been consistency in selection at 10 with both Ford and Farrell getting a lot of caps. NZ don't really have a back up ten playing in NZ with a lot of international experience except for Donald, which is curious given that they have had injury problems at 10 in some of the last few RWCs.


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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:52 am

Personally still think Mackenzie is a better 10 than barrett.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:54 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Personally still think Mackenzie is a better 10 than barrett.

Really? Do you not think he is a bit light for international rugby. I would say he is probably the lightest 10 in world rugby and can be targeted even if he is a brave guy.

I have seen him play twice in person and he is good to watch but not that solid in defense.

Anyway he is out of the RWC of course.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:59 am

There are ways to cover size. Ford is hardly the biggest but is absolutely fine at 10. I just think he dictates play better than barrett.

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Post by Taylorman on Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:31 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I was more talking about wasps but New Zealand generally have the same issue as England. Too much choice means you can get dragged into moving on to see how the next guy copes too quickly.

That may be so alright although in recent years there has been consistency in selection at 10 with both Ford and Farrell getting a lot of caps. NZ don't really have a back up ten playing in NZ with a lot of international experience except for Donald, which is curious given that they have had injury problems at 10 in some of the last few RWCs.

Well we did, but they are all in the NH now. Crudes, Sapoaga, Evans, Slade.
There’s a difference between ‘not having them’... and not having them.

Your point about injury in previous cups is a good one though. Basically that means Carter. In 2007, in the prime of his career, hes off injured at a critical point in the losing quarter. In 2011 he and Cruden go down again at a critical point in the final.

Then Carter spends the next four years getting injured with such consistency Cruden starts most of the matches.

He desperately tries to be ready for the world cup and gets there.

Quarter final time, at the point in his career where hes more injury prone than ever, he lasts all three knockouts including the final and lays on probably the best knockout performances by a 10 of all World cups, doing it all, playing several styles, including dropping crucial goals.

Go figure. Injury free for the first tournament ever at the most brittle point in his career.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:15 am

Ireland have two top out halves playing in England too. Jackson and Madigan, both very experienced and both would probably be ahead of Carbery if they were in Ireland but ineligible now. They are also both younger than the Kiwi options you mention. It happens.

NZs options aren't great abroad, do you really think any of them would make a NZ squad now? Cruden would be of no value to NZ as he is spectacularly off form and as injury prone as you can possibly be, huge risk bringing him to a RWC. He would be a great option otherwise.

Slade plays in D2 in France and wasn't great in the first place but hasn't played top level for some time. Sapoaga I suspect was told by NZ rugby that he wasn't required, I find it hard to believe that he would leave otherwise. He is also really struggling at Wasps. Maybe he would be in a better position if he stayed in NZ, who knows.

Nick Evans is 38! Why would NZ select him for this RWC? He will be 39 when the RWC starts.

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Post by ebop on Thu Jun 06, 2019 12:53 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:NZs options aren't great abroad, do you really think any of them would make a NZ squad now?
Nup, it’s common knowledge NZ rugby players regress when they move overseas. Exceptions would be the props and big boys. Any player with skill/pace gets that beaten out of them by the rigid type of game played where running metres are kept to a minimum.


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Post by LeinsterFan4life on Thu Jun 06, 2019 12:55 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:Lot of respect for Super Rugby today, with the Chiefs and Crusaders playing a match in Suva. It helps that the large crowd have seen an entertaining first half, as the Crusaders went 20-0 up only for the Chiefs to score 19 points themselves.

Then that respect is completely lost when you find out that 6 super rugby players have refused a call up to Fiji due to worries about them not having their contracts renewed if they play international rugby. Four of these play for NZ franchises and I find the refusals odd given how NZ franchises allow for 2 foreign players in each squad.

It really is a shame now that Sevu Reece didn't get to join Connacht as he'd be surely playing in the world cup.

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Post by ebop on Thu Jun 06, 2019 12:58 pm

Maybe some of these players want to play for the ABs?
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu Jun 06, 2019 12:59 pm

Piutau would walk into the nz side.

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Post by ebop on Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:00 pm

Nah, he’s a hasbeen
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Post by ebop on Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:00 pm

Worries too much about money and doesn’t have the heart for it
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Post by LeinsterFan4life on Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:06 pm

ebop wrote:Maybe some of these players want to play for the ABs?
Yes that's the point, it secures their rugby future simple as. Yet more island players lost.

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Post by profitius on Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:06 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:Ireland have two top out halves playing in England too. Jackson and Madigan, both very experienced and both would probably be ahead of Carbery if they were in Ireland but ineligible now. They are also both younger than the Kiwi options you mention. It happens.


Not a hope Madigan would be ahead of Carbery. Unlikely Jackson would be too. Carbery has world class potential. Jackson is a solid international while Madigan has lost his place for Bristol.
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Post by ebop on Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:16 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
ebop wrote:Maybe some of these players want to play for the ABs?
Yes that's the point, it secures their rugby future simple as. Yet more island players lost.
Sevu for example made a decision to move to NZ to attend high school. Who knows what he wants to do? He may play for Fiji he may not. Point is, in NZ, we’re not ‘importing’ or ‘buying’ rugby players, they come here of their own accord and if they’re good enough they rise up and make a name for themselves and some decide to play for their adopted country if they’re lucky. There’s not that many over history. More Pacific Islanders in NZ play for their homeland or parents’ homeland than do for the ABs. The NH clubs are the ones ‘buying’ up pre-packaged professionals and then the unions cap them which is pretty darned cynical.
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:42 pm

Lol. Right you are ebop.

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Post by ebop on Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:44 pm

Lol, good one 7.5
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Post by LeinsterFan4life on Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:57 pm

ebop wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
ebop wrote:Maybe some of these players want to play for the ABs?
Yes that's the point, it secures their rugby future simple as. Yet more island players lost.
Sevu for example made a decision to move to NZ to attend high school. Who knows what he wants to do? He may play for Fiji he may not. Point is, in NZ, we’re not ‘importing’ or ‘buying’ rugby players, they come here of their own accord and if they’re good enough they rise up and make a name for themselves and some decide to play for their adopted country if they’re lucky. There’s not that many over history. More Pacific Islanders in NZ play for their homeland or parents’ homeland than do for the ABs. The NH clubs are the ones ‘buying’ up pre-packaged professionals and then the unions cap them which is pretty darned cynical.
Theres nothing cynical with NZ franchises treathning PI players with their contracts if they accept a call up to their national team even though they are allowed 2 foreign players? C'mon the SH is just as bad if not worse. Sevu Reece is Fijian full stop, just like Naholo and Seta Tamivalu before him. Playing for the ABs is job security and a bit of extra money for them.

I don't blame the players, I've been calling for a change in eligibility rules for tier 2 nations for years.

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Post by ebop on Thu Jun 06, 2019 2:03 pm

Where’s the evidence NZR are threatening players with their contracts? Had you heard of Sevu, Seta, Waisake before they moved to NZ? Didn’t think so. That’s because they moved to NZ to attend school and weren’t professional rugby players. Who are the Fijians attending school in the Northern Hemisphere to get a better education?
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Post by ebop on Thu Jun 06, 2019 2:07 pm

Speaking of a change in tier 2 eligibility. Wasn’t it some disgraceful NH unions that vetoed the NZR backed proposal to allow players that had played for tier 1 countries to play for tier 2 nations if they were eligible. Who was it again, Scotland, Wales?
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Post by LeinsterFan4life on Thu Jun 06, 2019 2:15 pm

ebop wrote:Where’s the evidence NZR are threatening players with their contracts? Had you heard of Sevu, Seta, Waisake before they moved to NZ? Didn’t think so. That’s because they moved to NZ to attend school and weren’t professional rugby players. Who are the Fijians attending school in the Northern Hemisphere to get a better education?
You do realise this isn't something new and Fiji, Samoa and Tonga coaches have always complained about this. To deny that NZ franchises are threatening players with contracts is laughable.

I don't get your point on moving to NZ for school. Obvioulsy these guys will move to NZ and Aus to better themselves and are encouraged to do so by their families. You do understand there is no professional set up in the islands Yes? This doesn't exonerate NZ in any way for their actions.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Thu Jun 06, 2019 2:15 pm

ebop wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:NZs options aren't great abroad, do you really think any of them would make a NZ squad now?
Nup, it’s common knowledge NZ rugby players regress when they move overseas. Exceptions would be the props and big boys. Any player with skill/pace gets that beaten out of them by the rigid type of game played where running metres are kept to a minimum.

Pretty easy to think of examples to debunk that theory. Nacewa, Lowe, Howlett, Evans, Aki, Anscome to name a few have all had good careers in the NH. The ABs don't pick these guys as logistically it wouldn't make any sense to do so.

A really good player will make it anywhere if they want it enough.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life on Thu Jun 06, 2019 2:17 pm

ebop wrote:Speaking of a change in tier 2 eligibility. Wasn’t it some disgraceful NH unions that vetoed the NZR backed proposal to allow players that had played for tier 1 countries to play for tier 2 nations if they were eligible. Who was it again, Scotland, Wales?
Could well of been. I'm sure most tier 1 nations would be terrified of the potential of the islands if such a rule came about. Just look at what happend with the rugby league world cup.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Thu Jun 06, 2019 2:20 pm

profitius wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Ireland have two top out halves playing in England too. Jackson and Madigan, both very experienced and both would probably be ahead of Carbery if they were in Ireland but ineligible now. They are also both younger than the Kiwi options you mention. It happens.


Not a hope Madigan would be ahead of Carbery. Unlikely Jackson would be too. Carbery has world class potential. Jackson is a solid international while Madigan has lost his place for Bristol.

Its hard to tell as neither are playing in Ireland any more. Madigan steered Ireland to their one and only win v France at a RWC from 4 or 5 attempts. Jackson steered Ireland to a rare win in SA. Both players showed they can cut their teeth at international level, Carbery too however, its a shame he isn't a bit further along in his development at this point. Unlike Madigan and Jackson, Carbery hasn't started a big game and won yet.

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