Japan 2019 - Pool B Canada Italy Namibia New Zealand South Africa

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 09 Sep 2019, 12:25 pm

First topic message reminder :

TeamPlayedWonDrawnLostTriesPFPA+/-BPPoints
Italy220014952966210
New Zealand1100223131004
South Africa10011323-10100
Namibia100132247-2500
Canada10011748-4100


New Zealand 23 South Africa 10
Italy 47 Namibia 22
Italy 48 Canada 7 
                     

28 September 2019     South Africa v Namibia                   City of Toyota Stadium, Toyota
2 October 2019           New Zealand v Canada                   Oita Stadium, Ōita
4 October 2019           South Africa v Italy                        Shizuoka Stadium Ecopa, Fukuroi
6 October 2019           New Zealand v Namibia                  Tokyo Stadium, Chōfu
8 October 2019           South Africa v Canada                    Kobe Misaki Stadium, Kobe
12 October 2019         New Zealand v Italy                        City of Toyota Stadium, Toyota
13 October 2019         Namibia v Canada                           Kamaishi Recovery Memorial Stadium, Kamaishi


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Post by Cyril on Thu 10 Oct 2019, 11:17 pm

Not really. Everyone knows that the officials’ decision is final. As are tournament rules. It’s what you sign up for when you enter the RWC or other competition. Harsh sometimes.

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Post by Cyril on Thu 10 Oct 2019, 11:18 pm

and yes, I would be gutted if it happened to my side.

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Post by Taylorman on Thu 10 Oct 2019, 11:22 pm

I see reports NZ refused to accept a later alternative due to the time between that and the quarter final. On the face of it don't agree with that at all. I think they should have given Italy the shot if it was possible. More to come from that I'd say. ABs offered to move it forward which was refused by organisers but were then offered two days later, on Monday. Deemed Too late to prepare for a quarter final.


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Post by Heaf on Thu 10 Oct 2019, 11:23 pm

miaow wrote:We'll never really know, Heaf, but I look at the most successful teams since 2007 - or even going back further, but that and 2011 felt like the periods when rugby when almost 'totally' professional across the board for tier 1 - and the teams that get to the latter stages are the ones who can grind it out thanks to strength and fitness more than anything else.

Look at the teams that make the SFs -

2007: Argentina (wildcard), France, England, South Africa (all 3 beefy)
2011: Wales (fit), France (strong), NZ (fit and strong), Australia (fit)
2015: SA (strong and got past Wales due to fitness), NZ, Australia, Argentina (same again, a mix of fitness and strength for all 3)

It's why Ireland are likely to struggle as although they're strong-ish, they don't look fit, and can't do what Argentina did in 07 and 15, or Australia in 11 and 15.

You look at England's gameplan and it's all about explosivity - the 5 game test match streak they were facing is now 'gone', and it helps them massively, probably morethan most, although that's no fault of their own.

I suppose Wales will be hurting the most as we've played a 'proper' test match the most recently, with a 3 day turnaround until our next game, with some doubling up and having to play 3 games in 10 days on the day of the QF.

However, depending on who gets through out of Japan and Scotland, if that game goes ahead, they'll be suffering even more.

I think you're being a bit naive about how much skills under pressure and fatigue, as well as squad depth which is a knock on effect, determines who wins the RWC or at least gets to the latter stages.

It's the depth of the England squad that make me say missing out the French game isn't as big an advantage as you suggest as they would be able to rotate a lot, and any advantage is offset to some extent at least by players like Nowell and MV missing out on game time and the general match readiness of the team. Swings and roundabouts.

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Post by miaow on Thu 10 Oct 2019, 11:29 pm

Taylorman wrote:I see reports NZ refused to accept a later alternative due to the time between that and the quarter final. On the face of it don't agree with that at all. I think they should have given Italy the shot if it was possible. More to come from that I'd say. ABs offered to move it forward which was refused by organisers but were then offered two days later, on Monday. Deemed Too late to prepare for a quarter final.

Entitled to do so and I imagine all teams did this, but the onus is surely on WR to put their foot down, or push the tournament as a whole back. Again, you have to ask the question - if it were Italy in the position to refuse, would we have the same result? You can only hope so but it's undeniable there is a clear hierarchy in the rugby world, and NZ sit at the top in terms of influence, even if they don't want to admit it.

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Post by Taylorman on Thu 10 Oct 2019, 11:35 pm

A delay of two days apparently is enough to allow a side to be disrupted for a potential quarter final so I'm assuming most sides would opt for this.

If Italy were in the same position- ranked higher, likely to win, its fair to assume they would do the same. That a side will 'do anything' if faced with certain exit, is obvious. But does that mean another side should carry that burden upon itself?

That doesnt make it NZ at any point of influence, thats just the position NZ finds itself in, where both teams must obviously agree to play.

Which other side in the same position are you saying would play? I don't know of any.

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Post by Cyril on Fri 11 Oct 2019, 12:14 am

Let’s not blame the top sides (it’s the weather). This is just an unfortunate set of events. Shoite happens. Just remember all the games in the NH when the heavens fell and it evened it up for the negative side.

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Post by Cyril on Fri 11 Oct 2019, 12:14 am

Let’s not blame the top sides (it’s the weather). This is just an unfortunate set of events. Shoite happens. Just remember all the games in the NH when the heavens fell and it evened it up for the negative side.

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Post by Taylorman on Fri 11 Oct 2019, 12:19 am

These are on Sunday...
– Sun Oct 13, 18:45: USA v Tonga, Hanazono Rugby Stadium (pool C) – SET TO GO AHEAD
– Sun Oct 13, 21:15: Wales v Uruguay, Kumamoto Stadium (pool D) – SET TO GO AHEAD
– Sun Oct 13, 23:45: Japan v Scotland, International Stadium Yokohama (pool A) – SET TO GO AHEAD

Why cant they just cancel the first two and play the 2 cancelled ones. Neither of the first two are pool deciders...
probably a whole bunch of swap logistics but two matches are expected, they just happen to be different ones.

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Post by miaow on Fri 11 Oct 2019, 12:44 am

Taylorman wrote:Which other side in the same position are you saying would play? I don't know of any.

You misunderstood. I meant if roles were reversed, would Italy 'be able' to refuse to play. Hard to say but you'd have to assume Italy have much less clout than NZ, or any similar disparity in union power you can think of. England v Argentina, say.

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Post by Cyril on Fri 11 Oct 2019, 12:55 am

Miaow, so you’re accusing World Rugby of corruption?

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Post by Taylorman on Fri 11 Oct 2019, 1:05 am

miaow wrote:
Taylorman wrote:Which other side in the same position are you saying would play? I don't know of any.

You misunderstood. I meant if roles were reversed, would Italy 'be able' to refuse to play. Hard to say but you'd have to assume Italy have much less clout than NZ, or any similar disparity in union power you can think of. England v Argentina, say.

Yes I think it would need to be a situation that suits them both, because they both need to agree. A match that takes two days out of a sides prep would likely only be agreed to if both needed to qualify with the win.

Your just not going to get a situation where Italy are through and the ABs needing to win to get through, because part of that clout is that the ABs dont get into that position, never have. If the Boks beat the ABs AND Italy then both sides still need to win. If both the Boks and Italy beat NZ then they would lose any perceived clout anyway. Theyd be considered hopeless.

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Post by Pie on Fri 11 Oct 2019, 2:42 am

Taylorman wrote:Blah blah blah. How original. You need more material.

no pal, the mighty All blacks do.

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Post by Taylorman on Fri 11 Oct 2019, 2:53 am

Pie wrote:
Taylorman wrote:Blah blah blah. How original. You need more material.

no pal, the mighty All blacks do.

True, give it 2-3 weeks.

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Post by Taylorman on Fri 11 Oct 2019, 3:23 am

Apparently Monday was never on the cards, Mr Moore telling a few porkies.

Overall its all a big black mark and only thing that's will save it from being worse is if the Scotland Japan match goes ahead. That would truly set the black flag, or not, against this tournament, forever.

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Post by Pie on Fri 11 Oct 2019, 3:27 am

Taylorman wrote:
Pie wrote:
Taylorman wrote:Blah blah blah. How original. You need more material.

no pal, the mighty All blacks do.

True, give it 2-3 weeks.

Before you choke...this time you can blame the weather Laugh

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Post by ebop on Fri 11 Oct 2019, 3:44 am

Pie, by choke do you mean winning the RWC like the last two?
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Post by Pie on Fri 11 Oct 2019, 5:31 am

ebop wrote:Pie, by choke do you mean winning the RWC like the last two?

No I mean in 1991, 1999, 2003 and 2007 thumbsup

(We won't include 1995 cos we all know you were 'sick').

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Post by Old Man on Fri 11 Oct 2019, 5:37 am

Pie wrote:
ebop wrote:Pie, by choke do you mean winning the RWC like the last two?

No I mean in 1991, 1999, 2003 and 2007  thumbsup

(We won't include 1995 cos we all know you were 'sick').

Well the All Blacks did discover the Heimlich maneuver in 2011 and been ok since. Wink

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Post by Taylorman on Fri 11 Oct 2019, 5:55 am

Pie wrote:
ebop wrote:Pie, by choke do you mean winning the RWC like the last two?

No I mean in 1991, 1999, 2003 and 2007  thumbsup

(We won't include 1995 cos we all know you were 'sick').

You know we are still waiting for a home unions side to take a single win. In 9 World Cups Italy beat them all to something with a rained out draw. And we’re making the excuses.just for you of course... kiss

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Post by Taylorman on Fri 11 Oct 2019, 6:09 am

NZ could be brought down to a similar fate as Italy, simply through the ABs not having Italy earlier. We play the seed first, England don’t get to, so any count back goes in their favour. A la the cricket. England may have got the 5 on France to stay ahead, but didn’t have to. Having a good little run our English friends. Hug

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Post by Soul Requiem on Fri 11 Oct 2019, 7:08 am

miaow wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:I don't remember England scoring 58 points against Argentina in recent memory.

I don't remember Fiji having a team in Super Rugby and blah blah blah - yep, we get it, you're trolling.

Trolling because your own point was garbage? Argentina are a tougher assignment.

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Post by SecretFly on Fri 11 Oct 2019, 9:28 am

Cyril wrote:Miaow, so you’re accusing World Rugby of corruption?


................................................................. Whistle


Is that a trick question?

Let's try it this way - they're not being accused of being not corrupt. Anything else is up for debate.

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Post by Pal Joey on Fri 11 Oct 2019, 9:32 am

Does anyone here drink low-fat milk?
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Post by SecretFly on Fri 11 Oct 2019, 9:34 am

Pal Joey wrote:Does anyone here drink low-fat milk?

Only the fatty bit.

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Post by Pal Joey on Fri 11 Oct 2019, 9:35 am

SecretFly wrote:
Pal Joey wrote:Does anyone here drink low-fat milk?

Only the fatty bit.

Very Happy
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Post by miaow on Sat 12 Oct 2019, 10:29 pm

Another game cancelled: https://www.rugbyworldcup.com/news/510716

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Post by robbo277 on Sun 13 Oct 2019, 8:29 am

Well I've 180'ed on cancellations now.

I had Namibia in one sweepstake and Canada in another, both of which paid out for 20th team. All I needed was either to lose without a bonus point. The draw gives them both a comfortable 2 points and condemns Russia.

In all seriousness you feel for the two teams almost as much as Italy. They've been thrashed 3 times and this was their chance to win a World Cup game and make some positive memories for the tournament, both within the squad and back home.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Sun 13 Oct 2019, 1:09 pm

robbo277 wrote:Well I've 180'ed on cancellations now.

I had Namibia in one sweepstake and Canada in another, both of which paid out for 20th team. All I needed was either to lose without a bonus point. The draw gives them both a comfortable 2 points and condemns Russia.

In all seriousness you feel for the two teams almost as much as Italy. They've been thrashed 3 times and this was their chance to win a World Cup game and make some positive memories for the tournament, both within the squad and back home.

Agreed. I feel world rugby didnt exhaust all options to get them played

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Post by Taylorman on Sun 13 Oct 2019, 2:56 pm

Looks like we get an Ireland, England path to the final where second placed SA get Japan, Wales/ France. Funny how things turn out.

Much prefer what I think is the slightly tougher route. No chance of complacency.

Top four are definitely NZ, SA, Eng and Wales in this comp. Japan, Ireland, France and oz the next 4.

If there’s an upset I think it will be France over Wales. I think Jones has oz sussed and the rest will go with the rankings.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Sun 13 Oct 2019, 3:00 pm

SAs route isnt that easy either given how things are unfolding. Wales are a tough side and grand slam champs and Japan seem to be unflappable at the moment. To be fair all sides in the quarters are there because they are good sides (except France?)

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Post by Taylorman on Sun 13 Oct 2019, 3:25 pm

Why so? France never lost, Ireland, Oz and SA did. If anyone can be rated not a good side on pool play it’s Ireland, who we’re top seeds and higher ranked, and lost to no. 3. No one else got near doing that.

Ireland and Scotland have made Japan look probably better than they are if anything. Japan haven’t played a SH tier one yet. France have.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Sun 13 Oct 2019, 3:36 pm

I thought you were saying NZ had a tougher route, have you changed your mind? Ireland are the easy option now?

Japan and Wales are also the only sides to win all their games at the RWC so they are the form sides. Dont think France have been particularly impressive.

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Post by Taylorman on Sun 13 Oct 2019, 3:47 pm

True, for us I think Ireland England is tougher than Japan Wales. It’s Ireland and Scotland that struggled with Japan. I don’t see either SA nor NZ doing that. We certainly wouldn’t. They play a NZ game, and that familiarity is in our favour. And to an extent, SA’s.

France scored some good tries but agree they weren’t flash.

Japan has certainly thrown its hat into the ring now. They’re now better than two maybe three 6N/ RC sides.

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Post by Poorfour on Sun 13 Oct 2019, 6:18 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:I thought you were saying NZ had a tougher route, have you changed your mind? Ireland are the easy option now?

Japan and Wales are also the only sides to win all their games at the RWC so they are the form sides. Dont think France have been particularly impressive.

The only sides to win all their scheduled games. There are other sides who won all the games they were able to play - New Zealand, England and France. 

As for form... that’s almost impossible to tell based on what we’ve seen so far. 

  • Wales beat perennial bogey team Australia (just), but laboured against both Fiji and Uruguay. Their starting XV are arguably one of the form teams in the tournament... but there must be concerns about the depth in the squad. I think they will beat France - the question is whether or not they pick up any injuries.
  • France beat Argentina (just), Tonga (just) and racked up some points against the USA. But then again, they’re France. They can go from being absolute cack to the best team on the planet in the course of a game
  • England have been... efficient. They haven’t faced particularly challenging opposition but they have never looked out of control of their games, have racked up the bonus points without overexerting themselves or giving anything away tactically, and their defence has been strong. The question mark is whether a week off will leave them undercooked or raring to go. Personally, I think an extra week to get Marler and Billy back in shape is exactly what they need, and that Eddie will manage their prep to have them ready. He’s also very good at getting into Cheika’s head
  • New Zealand have done their usual smooth job against Canada and Namibia and (who are we kidding?) would have done the same against Italy. But South Africa got in their faces and showed how they can be put under pressure. If you can sustain that style of play for 60+ minutes, you’ve got a chance. And their route to the final could well be through two of the teams that can do that - Ireland and England.
  • Japan have been the most consistently impressive side. They’ve beaten 2 tier 1 teams, picked up 3 TBPs and 5 world ranking points - and will go into the QFs a shade behind Australia. Have we been underestimating them, or has Jamie Joseph forged a genuine force in World Rugby? I don’t think they’d have beaten Ireland if Schmidt had put out a full strength side, but there’s no denying that their work rate is top class and their tries against Scotland were well constructed. The power of South Africa will be a big challenge. But they have shown more stamina than the Boks - if they can outlast the initial storm, things could get interesting.
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Post by Taylorman on Sun 13 Oct 2019, 8:05 pm

Well you could see it that way and if you this NZ haven't been as consistent as Japan you'd be wrong. Ireland could only beat an obviously poor Scotland, and minnows. A NZ Scotland score would not have been split by 7.

Japan has given the northern sides a taste of what its like to bring in SH coaching and resources.

Dumping Cotter was the worst thing Scotland could have done. They are now reaping those benefits.

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Post by Poorfour on Sun 13 Oct 2019, 8:22 pm

Taylorman wrote:Well you could see it that way and if you this NZ haven't been as consistent as Japan you'd be wrong. Ireland could only beat an obviously poor Scotland, and minnows. A NZ Scotland score would not have been split by 7.

Japan has given the northern sides a taste of what its like to bring in SH coaching and resources.

Dumping Cotter was the worst thing Scotland could have done. They are now reaping those benefits.

Yawn.

Given that three of the Six Nations are coached by SH coaches, I think we have some idea of the wonder and majesty of antipodean coaching.

Ireland underestimated a Japan; Scotland, I think, are better than they were made to look but got their tactics horribly wrong against two teams whose preferred approach is to retain possession.

The point is that New Zealand have faced one competitive game, and looked very uncomfortable for half of it. There’s no team who don’t have question marks about them.
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Post by SecretFly on Sun 13 Oct 2019, 8:40 pm

Like I keep alluding to - "Ireland could only beat an obviously poor Scotland and minnows".
Samoa is 15th
Russia is 20th
Canada is 22th
Namibia is 23rd

Japan "has given the Northern sides a taste..... "

This high tempo, high jinx, high scoring side that has the world under their charm has scored 13 tries, 115 points and has had 62 points scored against them.  Ireland scored two tries to their one and held them to 19 points.  Slow, ponderous and boring Ireland have scored 18 tries, 121 points and only 2 tries/27 points in total scored against them.  A taste - of slow, pedestrian out-of-form Ireland.

If we could only pick up some form, we'd be quite a handy little team given how effective attack and defence has been whilst in the doldrums.

Anyway, all we got is a game to look forward to - NZ in very good form according to all media sources, Ireland in very mediocre mood according to all media sources.  The result a foregone conclusion?  Well perhaps.  But let's hope we make the favourites to lift the cup sweat a little for their prize.

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Post by Old Man on Sun 13 Oct 2019, 9:01 pm

I am sure Ireland will bring it against the All Blacks.

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Post by Poorfour on Sun 13 Oct 2019, 9:06 pm

Old Man wrote:I am sure Ireland will bring it against the All Blacks.

I’m counting on it. Put it all on the pitch and knock ‘em out, would you?
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Post by Old Man on Sun 13 Oct 2019, 9:13 pm

Poorfour wrote:
Old Man wrote:I am sure Ireland will bring it against the All Blacks.

I’m counting on it. Put it all on the pitch and knock ‘em out, would you?

Of course, this is a match Schmidt would have prepared for in detail. Ireland will be ready, the AB’s too though.

Should be a hell of a match.

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Post by Taylorman on Sun 13 Oct 2019, 9:20 pm

In all honesty, I don't think Ireland will put up anything like what they need up. Already their media is eating them up.


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Post by Poorfour on Sun 13 Oct 2019, 9:52 pm

Taylorman wrote:In all honesty, I don't think Ireland will put up anything like what they need up. Already their media is eating them up.


Like we couldn’t guess.
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Post by Taylorman on Sun 13 Oct 2019, 10:11 pm

Well its the most likeliest scenario. I'm seeing 2015 all over again in terms of the quarters. Your comment above was a common one after all and sundry dismissed Hansen's restricting the AB's in section play, instead going with 'The ABs are flat' etc etc and many thought France their nemesis might pip them.

60 points later and a near flawless performance suddenly France are the poorest they've been in a long time. Yeah, yeah...

Its like being on a well worn roundabout.

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Post by Taylorman on Sun 13 Oct 2019, 10:31 pm

I just happen to think the quality at this years tournament is lower than its ever been, and this allows sides like Japan to prosper. Its not fluke that a NH dominated pool is headed by a tier two side?

When has that ever happened?

I think the AB's have got really lucky in the last two months with such an injection of talent at the last hurdle. Cane returning and the dual flanker setup, two new wingers with spend and brains, a midfield coming right at the right time, and a 10/15 playmaker strategy that is breaking up the rush and other defences nicely.

Add to that Retallick is yet to return to full duty, and Laulala has kept the scrum tight and has added speed and ball carry that Franks never had.

We might lose, but no time for that, the potential could take this side to another level i these playoffs.

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Post by miaow on Mon 14 Oct 2019, 1:34 am

Taylorman wrote:Why so? France never lost

2 point victory v Tonga, scraped a win against a seriously poor Argentina, and had their proper match cancelled. That's hardly a useful stat to use given the context.

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Post by miaow on Mon 14 Oct 2019, 1:39 am

Taylorman wrote:Japan has given the northern sides a taste of what its like to bring in SH coaching and resources.

You've literally been banging on for 2+ years that the NH's performances are all due to SH coaching. But now it's Japan? Clearly just making it up as you go along - as Collapse said, Japan were the easy route, and then Ireland were once you started disagreeing with an Irish poster. Come on...

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Post by miaow on Mon 14 Oct 2019, 1:42 am

Also, can we be a little bit more realistic and, also, respectful. If you know jack sheet about Japanese rugby, it's best to keep quiet, but they have literally always played the style they're playing now - high tempo, fast hands, running game. That goes back to the amateur era. We all know the motivations for reducing it to a simply NH/SH binary, so worth ignoring, but Japan are merely tweaking and perfecting what is their 'natural' game. They're looking good value for it - Tamura (sp?) their #10 is head and shoulders above any 10 at the tournament so far. Absolute class act.

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Post by miaow on Mon 14 Oct 2019, 1:44 am

Old Man wrote:
Poorfour wrote:
Old Man wrote:I am sure Ireland will bring it against the All Blacks.

I’m counting on it. Put it all on the pitch and knock ‘em out, would you?

Of course, this is a match Schmidt would have prepared for in detail. Ireland will be ready, the AB’s too though.

Should be a hell of a match.

Agreed. Hope for a good game and think NZ fans will be in for a shock. Everything Schmidt has done in the last 4 years has built to this.

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Post by miaow on Mon 14 Oct 2019, 1:45 am

Taylorman wrote:In all honesty, I don't think Ireland will put up anything like what they need up. Already their media is eating them up.


Firstly, literally irrelevant to actual ability etc. But also a sign of different cultures. British and Irish media aren't seen as the propaganda wing of their national side - if anything they love sticking the boot in. Weird change to the cheerleading that goes on down south it seems, perhaps less so in Australia admittedly. But anyway, culture aside, it's a meaningless point - game isn't decided by the media. Clearly.

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