SF2 - Match Thread - WALES v SOUTH AFRICA - 27/10/19 - K/O 09:00 GMT

[Guest]

First topic message reminder :

Again, making these early for the sake of ease and consistency.

WALES

Team:Halfpenny; North, J Davies, Parkes, Adams; Biggar, G Davies; Wyn Jones, Owens, Francis, Ball, Alun Wyn Jones (capt), Wainwright, Moriarty, Tipuric.

Replacements: Dee, R Carre, D Lewis, Beard, Shingler, T Williams, Patchell, Watkin.

SOUTH AFRICA

South Africa: Le Roux; Nkosi, Am, De Allende, Mapimpi; Pollard, De Klerk; Mtawarira, Mbonambi, Malherbe, Etzebeth, De Jager, Kolisi (capt), Du Toit, Vermeulen

Replacements: Marx, Kitschoff, Koch, Snyman, Mostert, Louw, H Jantjies, Steyn



Venue: Yokohama
Referee:
AR1:
AR2:
TMO:

[Guest]

The list of those who have not improved is so big though. All subjective but most came back with their tails between their legs, some under a cloud, and rave reviews were few and far between.

James Hook
Leigh Halfpenny - I don’t think he was better, or made better, in Toulon. He kicked some crucial goals for them but they didn’t turn him in to some sort of awesome improved player. In fact, he came in for lots of criticism I think?
Lee Byrne
Jamie Roberts
Gavin Henson
Dan Lydiate
JD2
Paul James
Rhys Priestland
Mike Phillips
Rhys Webb
Gethin Jenkins
Scott Baldwin (tbc)
Luke Charteris - don’t agree he actually improved at Perpignan and Bath. Haven’t heard rave reviews
Dan Biggar - about the same. Don’t think he’s hit the heights of his peak Ospreys form from a few years back.
Taulupe Faletau - improved at Bath? Or about the same?

This is off the top of my head. A few more missed I expect. For those players ‘getting out of the Pro14’, while being good for their families, lifestyle and bank balance, did nothing to return them much better players, IMO. Some seemed to come back worse due to losing confidence and from sitting on the bench a lot!

[Taylorman]

There were 8 teams in the quarters. One team received a red. The team Wales played. It meant Wales got to play a match against a team with a man one down for a crucial period, and they were behind at the time of the red.

No other team got to play a side with 14 men. So in that respect, that 'went Wales way', regardless of what happened to get the red. The contest was altered in a way that gave Wales an advantage. No one elses was.

In 2011, it went Frances way. Many (many), Welsh supporters said France 'got lucky' due to the red. (When, like France, they actually didnt, it happened).

Wales also possibly benefitted from a forward pass that looked slightly forward but not called. It was a pass that could have, on closer inspection, been called forward in another match. I recall France getting one against NZ once and that was much further forward than this one. But, as it went, it went the French way.

If somebody viciously elbows our player in the face then I fail to see how that’s Wales getting lucky?

I actually pointed this out to you the other day but you ignored it, I’ll try again; you keep saying Wales were lucky that France got a red card, but you’ve never said France were lucky that Wales got a red card in 2011 - and you’ve talked about 2011 enough times already, usually singing the praises of an underperforming France team. 

What forward pass, Will Genia’s one???
If you’re referring to the rip, then like I keep telling the bitter English that are constantly trolling our thread, go look at the laws and you’ll find out that it didn’t go forward. That isn’t an opinion, it’s a fact. 

What do you think of Wales having to endure Garces three times this season already, soon to be 4? He’s been against us in every game, if he wasn’t then this place would go into meltdown with people saying he was in our back pocket

Geez I brought up 2011 because it was the same as this. Any side that gets a red card has a disadvantage. I also went to lengths to say that’s regardless of how they got it, but no you have bring in the drama of being smashed in the face.
Ooh how can that be lucky.

Same as Warbs smashing someone’s head into the ground. We get it it, it’s bad.

I’m saying it happens, and when it happens part of the contest dies with it. France suffered more than Wales yellow because it was longer than ten mins.

It happens. I’m not saying France we’re lucky in 2011 either, but they did benefit from the red from a numbers perspective.Welsh supporters were adamant France got through because of it. Here they’re saying we’ll teach you for doing that. Go figure.

And under more scrutiny the rip pass was forward. Slightly. I’ve seen the overhead shots and it was marginally forward. Those shots were not available at the time the tmo ruled. Marginal but forward. Again, fortunate.

[mikey_dragon]

Okay well if that was your point then you completely lost me before that.

[Taylorman]

Well there’s so many bases you seem to have to cover but simply put, red means advantage other side. Some passes get called correctly, some don’t. It’s understandable this one was marginal, coulda gone either way. Wales got advantaged from both. That’s all. It happens.

Anyway, overall, they’ve lost out big time with injuries which I think will cost them vs SA but having Kolbe out helps, probably the best winger in the world this year, perhaps with May. He would have caused Wales big problems. As would Williams have, but probably not as directly as Kolbe.

[Guest]

Big difference playing a man down for 62 minutes v 22 minutes.

[Guest]

George North as a strike runner:







https://youtu.be/0HHlsL9tZAU?t=82

https://youtu.be/7E2doKt7-U0?t=335



Liam Williams as a strike runner:



I'm sure I could find many more instances for both, and instances that contradict these points, but I'm just reiterating what a strike move is so people are sure, and perhaps non-Welsh fans might not realise how often, how effectively, and how successfully North is used as a strike runner. As you can see, for this particular skill, North is ideal - less so Liam, who I believe is better in broken field, as I'll show below. I feel similarly for Kolbe, whose use of balance and agility and speed is less suited to strike moves than it is broken field running.



https://youtu.be/EOWcBUQtaOk?t=49

I'm re-quoting this because dear me North in full flight off first phase is majestic.

If Wales are to win they almost certainly need to utilise him as a proper threat.

[Taylorman]

Yeah tell me about it, funny though, we didn’t get that feeling here when the Lions won their only test, you know, that big difference, but hey, depends who’s wearing the shoes at the time huh!

[Guest]

Yeah tell me about it, funny though,  we didn’t get that feeling here when the Lions won their only test, you know, that big difference, but hey, depends who’s wearing the shoes at the time huh!

Also a big difference between deliberate foul play - like an elbow or shoulder to the head - and a highly arguable tackle which, still, to me, under the current laws, looks like a yellow card.

[majesticimperialman]

Re Dan Biggar.

As he changed his style of Kicking? What happend to the Biggar Dance routine?

He does not deem to do much of it now.

[SecretFly]

Re Dan Biggar.

As he changed his style of Kicking? What happend to the Biggar Dance routine?

He does not deem to do much of it now.

New season, new style. Got keep it fresh, baby!

[Taylorman]

Yeah tell me about it, funny though,  we didn’t get that feeling here when the Lions won their only test, you know, that big difference, but hey, depends who’s wearing the shoes at the time huh!

Also a big difference between deliberate foul play - like an elbow or shoulder to the head - and a highly arguable tackle which, still, to me, under the current laws, looks like a yellow card.

Nah, no difference. You could say he didn’t know what he was hitting with his elbow, he might have thought he was being held back. He didn’t see the guys face, he just threw his elbow back. He may have thought it was his back.

Warbs dumped a player on his head from a height. Red card and even Warbs said it was right.

But the legality of it isn’t the point. It’s the effect.

Wales swore black and blue French won because of it. Too bad too sad.
All blacks get red for 60, say it was a factor. Too bad too sad.
France get red carded. Too bad too sad.

All three benefitted. The rest is just semantics, degree. It happens, there is no high ground.

[Guest]

Last 3 games.

2017:
14-0 to Wales after 10mins
21-10 to Wales at HT
21-22 to Boks at 55 mins
Wales win 24-22.


2018 (summer):
SA lead 3-0 after 30 mins
Wales lead 14-3 after 34 mins (and HT)
SA lead 17-20 after 73 mins
Wales win 22-20


2018 (autumn):
14-0 to Wales after 15 mins
14-3 at HT (SA try disallowed and multiple penalties turned down in 22, turned over instead on stroke of HT)
14-11 to Wales after 62 mins
20-11 Wales win


It's a bit too simplistic to say SA need to stop Wales getting a healthy HT lead to win the game - but it would definitely help them a great deal.

[Taylorman]

NZ are 12 from the last 13 vs England. Last six straight. Automatic win is it?

At semis time none of that matters. You’re talking AIs. They’re no way to compare that with a World Cup.

Look at the last time SA beat a Wales...World Cup.

Look at Irelands hopes of beating the ABs based on the AI’s.

World Cup.

Still don’t get it huh?

[Guest]

Blah, blah, blah. Honestly, contribute something useful please. The profligacy and arrogance of your postings as we get nearer the games (happened v Ireland too) are more and more Trump-esque. You sound utterly convinced by your own "genius", same as Donny T. It's not a good trait.

[Taylorman]

It was useful. You select only AI matches to make a point against SA, with pictures even. How come the World Cup match isn’t there? It’s far more relevant.

Ireland pinned their chances against NZ completely on the AIs, we heard all about that for the last 12 months.

Yet even after last week you still think they’re ‘really relevant’.

Anyway, fair enough, it’s your party, won’t spoil it anymore, npbut don’t be surprised if the match is ‘nothing like’ the AIs, as Ireland were.

[Guest]

I didn't even make an argument. It was a point of discussion. Just read instead of projecting.

[Taylorman]

So was mine. Yours was about how relevant the past three matches has been, mine was about how they weren’t relevant, and you are projecting exactly the sort of things Irish fans were projecting...AI trends.

Like I said, it’s your party.

For me, World Cup, different beast.

Good luck tonight. The injury toll for me will be a bridge too big to overcome. If Wales win this with that many out, they deserve the title. Haven’t seen a side win it with that many key players out, ever. We were short a few in 2011 but nothing like the way Wales have lost players. 5 or 6 certain starters is it now?

[Guest]

Yeah tell me about it, funny though,  we didn’t get that feeling here when the Lions won their only test, you know, that big difference, but hey, depends who’s wearing the shoes at the time huh!

Also a big difference between deliberate foul play - like an elbow or shoulder to the head - and a highly arguable tackle which, still, to me, under the current laws, looks like a yellow card.

Nah, no difference. You could say he didn’t know what he was hitting with his elbow, he might have thought he was being held back. He didn’t see the guys face, he just threw his elbow back. He may have thought it was his back.

Warbs dumped a player on his head from a height. Red card and even Warbs said it was right.

But the legality of it isn’t the point. It’s the effect.

Wales swore black and blue French won because of it. Too bad too sad.
All blacks get red for 60, say it was a factor. Too bad too sad.
France get red carded. Too bad too sad.

All three benefitted. The rest is just semantics, degree. It happens, there is no high ground.

Sorry T’man, but I couldn’t disagree more with this bit. Before the elbow the French lock had Wainright around the neck in a headlock which Wainright was protesting against. He then let go of him and then elbowed him. So having had him in a headlock just before it I’m 100% sure he knew what he was doing and where he was hitting. The player even admitted he lost it! If it was a case of thinking he was elbowing someone’s back I reckon he would have said it was an accident or mistake.

[Taylorman]

Yeah fair enough, I only saw the initial hit and went red! You’re gone, and went and made a coffee while they analysed it to bits and didn’t follow the inevitable lynching.

[Guest]

Yeah fair enough, I only saw the initial hit and went red! You’re gone, and went and made a coffee while they analysed it to bits and didn’t follow the inevitable lynching.

Here it is in Twitter. Looks like he’s annoyed at Wainright and then loses his cool!

https://twitter.com/itvrugby/status/1185836398600962048?s=21

[mikey_dragon]

Well there’s so many bases you seem to have to cover but simply put, red means advantage other side. Some passes get called correctly, some don’t. It’s understandable this one was marginal, coulda gone either way. Wales got advantaged from both. That’s all. It happens.

Anyway, overall, they’ve lost out big time with injuries which I think will cost them vs SA but having Kolbe out helps, probably the best winger in the world this year, perhaps with May. He would have caused Wales big problems. As would Williams have, but probably not as directly as Kolbe.

It wasn’t a pass, it was a rip. That’s why it never went forward.

[Taylorman]

Yeah fair enough, I only saw the initial hit and went red! You’re gone, and went and made a coffee while they analysed it to bits and didn’t follow the inevitable lynching.

Here it is in Twitter. Looks like he’s annoyed at Wainright and then loses his cool!

https://twitter.com/itvrugby/status/1185836398600962048?s=21

Don’t get the feed being here I guess but lover the spec savers comment

Cheers.

[Old Man]

Yeah tell me about it, funny though,  we didn’t get that feeling here when the Lions won their only test, you know, that big difference, but hey, depends who’s wearing the shoes at the time huh!

Also a big difference between deliberate foul play - like an elbow or shoulder to the head - and a highly arguable tackle which, still, to me, under the current laws, looks like a yellow card.

Nah, no difference. You could say he didn’t know what he was hitting with his elbow, he might have thought he was being held back. He didn’t see the guys face, he just threw his elbow back. He may have thought it was his back.

Warbs dumped a player on his head from a height. Red card and even Warbs said it was right.

But the legality of it isn’t the point. It’s the effect.

Wales swore black and blue French won because of it. Too bad too sad.
All blacks get red for 60, say it was a factor. Too bad too sad.
France get red carded. Too bad too sad.

All three benefitted. The rest is just semantics, degree. It happens, there is no high ground.

Sorry T’man, but I couldn’t disagree more with this bit. Before the elbow the French lock had Wainright around the neck in a headlock which Wainright was protesting against. He then let go of him and then elbowed him. So having had him in a headlock just before it I’m 100% sure he knew what he was doing and where he was hitting. The player even admitted he lost it! If it was a case of thinking he was elbowing someone’s back I reckon he would have said it was an accident or mistake.

Agree, that was as deliberate as they come, there was no doubt the maliciousness of the elbow, with force.

[mikey_dragon]

Yeah fair enough, I only saw the initial hit and went red! You’re gone, and went and made a coffee while they analysed it to bits and didn’t follow the inevitable lynching.

Well maybe you should watch things more carefully next time, as that was a dumb comment to make. 

I don’t think any of us think we lost to France in 2011 because of a red card. We were in the game up to the end. Halfpenny missed a kick at goal. Experienced players like Ryan and Stephen Jones came on and bottled it.

[Taylorman]

Oh really, so is this the point I pull out all the you you tubes and comments about how France were gifted the final. No, I won’t go there, because Im not that fickle, but believe me, there was a torrent of it, so I don’t think I hold the ownership papers to dumb comments.

And I freely admit I was wrong and Mikey the dragon feels the need to jump on it with the dumb comments job, how mature.

[mikey_dragon]

It was a very dumb comment to make because it was a clear and obvious elbow, and all of that’s already been explained to you. Instead of accepting you were wrong you have to keep whining.

[Taylorman]

It was a very dumb comment to make because it was a clear and obvious elbow, and all of that’s already been explained to you. Instead of accepting you were wrong you have to keep whining.

I did say I was wrong, at the first point Oracle pulled it up.
You are the only one now whining.

And still are.

Is there a point to continue this more?

What part of this suggests I am still whining about it

‘Yeah fair enough, I only saw the initial hit and went red! You’re gone, and went and made a coffee while they analysed it to bits and didn’t follow the inevitable lynching.’

Are we done on this?

[majesticimperialman]

Question to all Welsh fans.

Biggar and Halfpenny are in the starting line up, who will be taking the kicks at goal?
Or who would you like to be taking kicks at goal?

[Guest]

Question to all Welsh fans.

Biggar and Halfpenny are in the starting line up, who will be taking the kicks at goal?
Or who would you like to be taking kicks at goal?

Gats has said Biggar will kick the goals, Halfpenny maybe with some long range ones. See BBC Sport News article.

Have to say, Halfpenny’s not got the same accuracy and kicking % as in previous years. Still very good but no longer amazing.

[mikey_dragon]

It was a very dumb comment to make because it was a clear and obvious elbow, and all of that’s already been explained to you. Instead of accepting you were wrong you have to keep whining.

I did say I was wrong, at the first point Oracle pulled it up.
You are the only one now whining.

And still are.

Is there a point to continue this more?

What part of this suggests I am still whining about it

‘Yeah fair enough, I only saw the initial hit and went red! You’re gone, and went and made a coffee while they analysed it to bits and didn’t follow the inevitable lynching.’

Are we done on this?

Well go back and read and you should see where you kept whining, but of course I’m happy to leave it.

[majesticimperialman]

Question to all Welsh fans.

Biggar and Halfpenny are in the starting line up, who will be taking the kicks at goal?
Or who would you like to be taking kicks at goal?

Gats has said Biggar will kick the goals, Halfpenny maybe with some long range ones. See BBC Sport News article.

Have to say, Halfpenny’s not got the same accuracy and kicking % as in previous years. Still very good but no longer amazing.

cheers, just seen it.

[Taylorman]

It was a very dumb comment to make because it was a clear and obvious elbow, and all of that’s already been explained to you. Instead of accepting you were wrong you have to keep whining.

I did say I was wrong, at the first point Oracle pulled it up.
You are the only one now whining.

And still are.

Is there a point to continue this more?

What part of this suggests I am still whining about it

‘Yeah fair enough, I only saw the initial hit and went red! You’re gone, and went and made a coffee while they analysed it to bits and didn’t follow the inevitable lynching.’

Are we done on this?

Well go back and read and you should see where you kept whining, but of course I’m happy to leave it.

Good.

I’ve got a match vs pesky old England to prepare for anyway...well...buy the chippies, dip, a couple of cans of beer, take the mrs for lunch, hog the remote, you know, all the usual test prep stuff. Thought about going to the club but you tend not to see things as clearly, for some reason, or end up on the pool table, as usual.

[mikey_dragon]

Good luck with it Tman. I’ve made a few kiwi mates on my travels, all from Auckland. Hoping to visit your land someday. PS was Jake the muss from Auckland?

[Taylorman]

The character? was from Otara, South Auckland. I lived in Mangere, close by. It’s where the Int. airport is. Otara had a hotel nicknamed the Flying jug for obvious reasons.

The pub in the film was actually an unused old supermarket in Otara.

Not a bad film, went to a lot of those types of parties in my twenties, just the way it was. I’d say it’s the same everywhere. The actor who played Jake is a lovely bloke!

[mikey_dragon]

Yeah in the movie, I always thought it was Auckland - an interesting insight to the place. Tem Morrison is a good actor, but as Jake the muss he was great.


South Africa fans have supposedly started a petition to try and prevent Garces from reffing the SF. I think we’d be happy with that. Have the coach and players said anything about Garces? If they did, that’s a sign of weakness...

[Old Man]

Rassie Erasmus said the team is focused on Wales.

There is no weakness, only poor handling

[whocares]

Very difficult for me to predict who will win that one. One one hand SA has been consistently good since the start of the WC albeit far from spectacular and on the other hand am pretty sure Wales will be up for it and play their A game (not like in that QF where the favourite tag made them almost choke). The combine loss of Kolbe and Liam Williams made it even more complicate to guess. Probably a low try event with discipline being the deciding factor. The only consensus is that there will be some ref blaming this time tomorrow

[Old Man]

South Africa and Wales in a sense stand before a stalemate.

Both play with structure, both have great defense, both kick for territory, both play off errors from the opposition.

The question tomorrow is who will show something new.

[majesticimperialman]

South Africa and Wales in a sense stand before a stalemate.

Both play with structure, both have great defense, both kick for territory, both play off errors from the opposition.

The question tomorrow is who will show something new.

Probably South Africa.

[RiscaGame]

I wish the game was today now, after watching the first semi final.

Glad Jon Davies is fit. Just hope his knee doesn’t affect him too much. I still kind of feel that this is a game too far for Wales, although our character will always give us a fighting chance.

[Heaf]

What are the injuries to Kolbe and Williams? Real shame as both are exciting to watch.

[maestegmafia]

I wish the game was today now, after watching the first semi final.

Glad Jon Davies is fit. Just hope his knee doesn’t affect him too much. I still kind of feel that this is a game too far for Wales, although our character will always give us a fighting chance.

We are missing a lot more key players than the other three semi finalists

[maestegmafia]

What are the injuries to Kolbe and Williams?  Real shame as both are exciting to watch.

both Ankle injuries I think

[stub]

Good luck tomorrow Wales. I think that it’s going to be a really good match up but I expect Wales will find a way to win.

Then, next weekend, CARNAGE!

[majesticimperialman]

If this game is any thing like what we have just seen with England v New Zealand. It will be hard to take in. Lets hope it is as good.

Good luck to both team's.

[Guest]

No chance it will be as good. Tense, ingrossing - but at least a few levels down in terms of standard.

Have to hope Wales make the most of opportunities. That is a cliche, but they really do not play like the ABs or England - we control, we kill, we limit, we wait, and then on the off chance we're losing, we try and get a try.

Expect goal kicks to be the order of the day with 1 or 2 tries each separating the teams.

Busy day for Garces with the whistle, I feel.

Bench could prove the difference - probably for SA, but with Carre, Tomos, Shingler...who knows, maybe even Patchell, although that could go either way...Wales might just produce enough.

[RiscaGame]

Good luck tomorrow Wales. I think that it’s going to be a really good match up but I expect Wales will find a way to win.

Then, next weekend, CARNAGE!

IF Wales win tomorrow, I don’t think there’ll be much coming from Wales fans. From my point of view anyway, I would say reaching the final probably surpasses expectations. The only carnage will be if Garces got the final (which he probably would).

[Guest]

The only way there will be chat from Wales is if we absolutely thump the Boks - and even then there will be reticence to gloat knowing what's in store. As that's unlikely to happen I don't thnk there will be those problems - doesn't have the long build up of a 6Ns game either. I'd expect any issues to come from England fans not rating Wales and the way they play.

[TightHEAD]

Salty much! Lol

[TightHEAD]

Just enjoy the experience and who knows maybe you'll have a full day to celebrate a final appearance tomorrow.

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