Refreshed side

by No 7&1/2 Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:17 am

First topic message reminder :

So a few comments I've lifted from the guardian from Eddie Jones. Pretty much as you'd expect in terms of looking ahead to the next challenge.
“I tell you what happens to teams – they evolve,” Jones said. “Some guys will lose desire, some guys will lose fitness, some guys will get injuries and there’ll be young guys come through. So this team is finished now. There will be a new team made. We’ll make a new team for the Six Nations and that new team for the Six Nations will be the basis of going to the next World Cup.'

Apparently the team at the weekend is the youngest to appear in a WC final so there won't be 15 new guys coming in but clearly a few are coming to the end. Are there particular areas or players jones will be looking at?

For me this bunch stand a decent chance in and around the squad to get more caps soon. Genge, Painter, Willis, Dombrandt, Smith, spencer, Robson and a outside chance of Mullins at full back.

Guys that are all young enough to be around for years to come but all with great potential. Perhaps not as good/proven as some who will step back but hugely talented.

by Geordie Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:44 pm

bluestonevedder wrote:In light of Slade and Manu's injuries, i'd be happy to see Devoto come into the squad. Big payer, great offload, and seems to be flourishing since moving to Exeter. When Tigers played the Chiefs a few weekends ago he was infuriatingly efficient at breaking the gain line and always got his hands free. I think England could do a lot worse than giving him a shot in the 6N.

Eddie, to be fair a half hearted sloth could break the Tigers defence these days.

by bluestonevedder Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:57 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
bluestonevedder wrote:In light of Slade and Manu's injuries, i'd be happy to see Devoto come into the squad. Big payer, great offload, and seems to be flourishing since moving to Exeter. When Tigers played the Chiefs a few weekends ago he was infuriatingly efficient at breaking the gain line and always got his hands free. I think England could do a lot worse than giving him a shot in the 6N.

Eddie, to be fair a half hearted sloth could break the Tigers defence these days.

It's still a bit too raw for jokes GF. We're on a streak of a draw and a win- let us fans enjoy it for a few more days please.

by BamBam Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:05 pm

lostinwales wrote:France are, arguably, improving though. Nothing is a given

Agree with you there lost, but I think most would be disappointed if we managed to lose to France in the opener

by Geordie Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:07 pm

bluestonevedder wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
bluestonevedder wrote:In light of Slade and Manu's injuries, i'd be happy to see Devoto come into the squad. Big payer, great offload, and seems to be flourishing since moving to Exeter. When Tigers played the Chiefs a few weekends ago he was infuriatingly efficient at breaking the gain line and always got his hands free. I think England could do a lot worse than giving him a shot in the 6N.

Eddie, to be fair a half hearted sloth could break the Tigers defence these days.

It's still a bit too raw for jokes GF. We're on a streak of a draw and a win- let us fans enjoy it for a few more days please.

by king_carlos Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:20 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
bluestonevedder wrote:In light of Slade and Manu's injuries, i'd be happy to see Devoto come into the squad. Big payer, great offload, and seems to be flourishing since moving to Exeter. When Tigers played the Chiefs a few weekends ago he was infuriatingly efficient at breaking the gain line and always got his hands free. I think England could do a lot worse than giving him a shot in the 6N.

Eddie, to be fair a half hearted sloth could break the Tigers defence these days.

This season the sloth has to remember not to run at Taufua or Lavanini to be fair.

Maybe Eastmond should start wearing a scrum cap as a clever disguise to look like a forward...

by king_carlos Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:22 pm

BamBam wrote:
lostinwales wrote:France are, arguably, improving though. Nothing is a given

Agree with you there lost, but I think most would be disappointed if we managed to lose to France in the opener

Guirado retiring is an enormous blow for France as well. Even at 33-years old he's still one of the best hookers and leaders in rugby.

by bluestonevedder Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:25 pm

king_carlos wrote:
BamBam wrote:
lostinwales wrote:France are, arguably, improving though. Nothing is a given

Agree with you there lost, but I think most would be disappointed if we managed to lose to France in the opener

Guirado retiring is an enormous blow for France as well. Even at 33-years old he's still one of the best hookers and leaders in rugby.

That's true, but Camille Chat is a hugely imposing player. It will be great to see what he can achieve with a string of starts rather than bench appearances.

by Geordie Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:29 pm

bluestonevedder wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
BamBam wrote:
lostinwales wrote:France are, arguably, improving though. Nothing is a given

Agree with you there lost, but I think most would be disappointed if we managed to lose to France in the opener

Guirado retiring is an enormous blow for France as well. Even at 33-years old he's still one of the best hookers and leaders in rugby.

That's true, but Camille Chat is a hugely imposing player. It will be great to see what he can achieve with a string of starts rather than bench appearances.

Sounds like something produced by a desert animal Whistle

by king_carlos Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:42 pm

bluestonevedder wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
BamBam wrote:
lostinwales wrote:France are, arguably, improving though. Nothing is a given

Agree with you there lost, but I think most would be disappointed if we managed to lose to France in the opener

Guirado retiring is an enormous blow for France as well. Even at 33-years old he's still one of the best hookers and leaders in rugby.

That's true, but Camille Chat is a hugely imposing player. It will be great to see what he can achieve with a string of starts rather than bench appearances.

A physical monster but yet to find consistency particularly in set-piece hence the high proportion of bench appearances. No doubt talented and only 24-years old though.

by bluestonevedder Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:52 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
bluestonevedder wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
BamBam wrote:
lostinwales wrote:France are, arguably, improving though. Nothing is a given

Agree with you there lost, but I think most would be disappointed if we managed to lose to France in the opener

Guirado retiring is an enormous blow for France as well. Even at 33-years old he's still one of the best hookers and leaders in rugby.

That's true, but Camille Chat is a hugely imposing player. It will be great to see what he can achieve with a string of starts rather than bench appearances.

Sounds like something produced by a desert animal

It's a terribly unfortunate name. Jim Hamilton and Andy Goode on the Rugby Pod always have a good laugh about it. Cracking podcast if anyone on here doesn't happen to listen to it

by BamBam Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:06 pm

Chat is a great player, was looking at the France thread earlier and was wondering if he'd get the opportunity to start or if there was another hooker ahead of him in the pecking order. Guirado offered a hell of a lot of leadership though, and most of the time looked by far the best player on his team so he'll be a big loss

by lostinwales Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:21 pm

Rumors that Kruis may depart Saracens, possibly for Japan, at the end of the season. This would end his England career.

If this is true I'd be tempted to leave him out of the 6N squad altogether.

by Guest Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:26 pm

If true, Kruis would be big in Japan.

by lostinwales Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:33 pm

guestalt_physicality wrote:If true, Kruis would be big in Japan.

Turning Japanese, guestalt?

by Guest Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:03 pm

Excuse me?

by **LondonTiger** Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:37 pm

lostinwales wrote:
guestalt_physicality wrote:If true, Kruis would be big in Japan.

Turning Japanese, guestalt?

by **LondonTiger** Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:39 pm

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-7866333/Sale-flanker-Ben-Curry-set-join-twin-brother-Tom-Eddie-Jones-England-squad-Six-Nations.html

Sale believe Ben Curry has as much international pedigree as his brother, with particular quality at the breakdown and in defence, as well as acting as a link man in open play. But Jones is understood to have previously indicated to the club that the uncapped Curry should be converted into a scrum-half.

by bluestonevedder Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:49 pm

LondonTiger wrote:https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-7866333/Sale-flanker-Ben-Curry-set-join-twin-brother-Tom-Eddie-Jones-England-squad-Six-Nations.html

Sale believe Ben Curry has as much international pedigree as his brother, with particular quality at the breakdown and in defence, as well as acting as a link man in open play. But Jones is understood to have previously indicated to the club that the uncapped Curry should be converted into a scrum-half.

Mauro Bergamasco mark II!

by BamBam Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:55 pm

What on earth?

by lostinwales Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:33 pm

Sounds like a standard EJ curveball, probably just seeing how far and fast such a rumor will spread

by BamBam Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:37 pm

Sale enjoying it on their Twitter feed

https://twitter.com/SaleSharksRugby/status/1215292766126854145

by No 7&1/2 Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:55 pm

Dont particularly want to click on a daily mail link bit I'm assuming that jones was taking the mick.

by yappysnap Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:40 pm

He'd still probably pass better then Youngs...

by Cumbrian Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:23 am

I refuse to click on a Daily Heil link, so will have to take your word for it. Scrum half just seems bizarre. Another failed attempt to jam a flanker into the hooking position I could have believed, but this has got to be a joke...

by WELL-PAST-IT Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:12 pm

Well, Harry Mallinder makes his return from injury on Sunday, perhaps EJ will make a request to Boyd to play him at lock. A sort of Banahan in reverse.

by Gooseberry Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:40 pm

yappysnap wrote:He'd still probably pass better then Youngs...

Who's brother was a center who played at hooker for England and the Lions so who knows

by Maddogflanker Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:34 pm

by WELL-PAST-IT

Well, Harry Mallinder makes his return from injury on Sunday, perhaps EJ will make a request to Boyd to play him at lock. A sort of Banahan in reverse.

Not many locks with a kicking game tbf.

by lostinwales Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:49 pm

Maddogflanker wrote:by WELL-PAST-IT

Well, Harry Mallinder makes his return from injury on Sunday, perhaps EJ will make a request to Boyd to play him at lock. A sort of Banahan in reverse.

Not many locks with a kicking game tbf.

John Eales?

by No 7&1/2 Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:53 am

Doesn't look good for watson. Went down in a pretty innocuous moment clutching his knee. Guess Furbank moves a step further towards a debut?

by WELL-PAST-IT Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:14 am

He might make the squad if Watson is out, he has the versatility that EJ likes, can play right across the backline from 10 -15

by king_carlos Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:16 pm

Joel Kpoku was excellent for Sarries when he came on today. He is a mountain of a man, carries brutally and hits hard in the tackle.

If Jones is looking for a more physical lock after how the pack fared in the RWC final then I could see Kpoku getting a look in. A very impressive second row for only 20-years old.

by Cumbrian Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:01 pm

For the wing position, I thought that both Nowell and Thorley were excellent in their respective matches.

by Cumbrian Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:03 pm

However, Watson looks like he is going to be okay:

https://www.somersetlive.co.uk/sport/other-sport/stuart-hooper-plays-down-anthony-3729314

by yappysnap Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:52 am

Shouldn't we stick with a largely unchanged team and look to set down a marker this 6N's? Win the GS show the RWC final was a one off, and carry on building with the very talented and young squad that we have.

What I don't think we want to do is start another overhaul. Just ditch Youngs, stop playing Daly at fb, replace the injuries and the retired players and carry on with the players we have.

by BamBam Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:36 am

I more or less agree with that yappy. I think I read that the RWC squad are getting the summer off, so that tour and the AIs are the time to bring through those who have consistently impressed in club rugby imo. I want to win the 6N, and a GS should be the target

by Cumbrian Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:54 am

I agree, but I think there has to be some changes in the backs due to injuries etc.

World Cup squad:

Dan Cole
Luke Cowan-Dickie
Tom Curry
Ellis Genge
Jamie George
Maro Itoje
George Kruis
Joe Launchbury
Courtney Lawes
Lewis Ludlam
Joe Marler
Kyle Sinckler
Jack Singleton
Sam Underhill
~~Billy Vunipola~~- Just doing a bit of soothsaying.
Mako Vunipola
~~Mark Wilson~~ Injured?

~~Joe Cokanasiga~~- Injured
Elliot Daly
Owen Farrell
George Ford
Piers Francis
~~Willi Heinz~~- Too old
Jonathan Joseph
Jonny May
~~Ruaridh McConnochie~~- Better options
Jack Nowell
~~Henry Slade~~ Injured?
Manu Tuilagi
Anthony Watson
Ben Youngs

In addition to this, we've heard Eddie say that he wants to get Ben Curry into the squad. I could be wrong, but I actually think there will be more changes than we have been anticipating. Either way, I reckon the squad may be named on Thursday (it has been named on the corresponding Thursday for the last two years 17/01/19, 18/01/18)

by MichaelT Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:20 am

I wonder if having both Dombrandt and Sam Simmonds on the bench on a 6/2 split might be something to do, at least once to see. Bench something like -

Cowan-Dickie, Genge, ?, Lawes, Dombrandt, Simmonds, Spencer, Ford or Daly

by lostinwales Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:28 am

I don't know if Simmonds will get back in. He was generally very good when he got a chance but we are so used to having a monster at 8

by Cumbrian Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:34 am

I've seen it mentioned before, and I am starting to agree, that Billy may have been 'found out' a little. He is still an important player and one of the first names on the teamsheet, but he doesn't seem as effective as he used to be. Having a player that offers a different style might be helpful.

by MichaelT Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:43 am

I think some players seem to play very well against certain teams, and the Vunipolas always seem to look great against Irish teams. Dan Biggar, and also James Hook a little further back, seem to have a knack for being great against England.

by lostinwales Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:03 pm

Cumbrian wrote:I've seen it mentioned before, and I am starting to agree, that Billy may have been 'found out' a little. He is still an important player and one of the first names on the teamsheet, but he doesn't seem as effective as he used to be. Having a player that offers a different style might be helpful.

The two questions are
1) Are we assessing him against his traditional ability to knock aside players like bowling pins or are we assessing him compared to other players? Sometimes we seem to assess players differently because they have been so remarkable in the past.
2) Can he adapt to not running through people all the time? The much derided Easter (who could also jump in the line out) seldom made a lot of ground but he was always there to truck the ball up, and very good at tying up defenders and getting the offload.

by WELL-PAST-IT Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:43 pm

When are the 6N squads announced?

by Gooseberry Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:43 pm

Cumbrian wrote:I agree, but I think there has to be some changes in the backs due to injuries etc.

World Cup squad:

Dan Cole
Luke Cowan-Dickie
Tom Curry
Ellis Genge
Jamie George
Maro Itoje
George Kruis
Joe Launchbury
Courtney Lawes
Lewis Ludlam
Joe Marler
Kyle Sinckler
Jack Singleton
Sam Underhill
~~Billy Vunipola~~- Just doing a bit of soothsaying.
Mako Vunipola
~~Mark Wilson~~ Injured?

~~Joe Cokanasiga~~- Injured
Elliot Daly
Owen Farrell
George Ford
Piers Francis
~~Willi Heinz~~- Too old
Jonathan Joseph
Jonny May
~~Ruaridh McConnochie~~- Better options
Jack Nowell
~~Henry Slade~~ Injured?
Manu Tuilagi
Anthony Watson
Ben Youngs

In addition to this, we've heard Eddie say that he wants to get Ben Curry into the squad. I could be wrong, but I actually think there will be more changes than we have been anticipating. Either way, I reckon the squad may be named on Thursday (it has been named on the corresponding Thursday for the last two years 17/01/19, 18/01/18)

I'd fancy you could do without one senior lock, have another tighthead in the training squad, and discount Francis as well. Possibly Ludlam too as he was a bit of and edge case to get the previous squad through injuries in the first place. Even if you think its worth trying another 8 you don't leave BVP out of the squad. Tuialgis fitness is debatable so plenty of scope for centers ( which maybe gives Francis a lifeline).
Agree that Youngs isnt getting ditched form the squad even if Jones takes a risk on a new starter. Id reckon 2 young scrum halves for the wider training squad would make sense.

Anyone know how all this works with the EPS this year? I cant remember when a squad was last announced, its usually at the end of the club season then updated in the autumn isnt it? Obviously thats only a guide and helpful from a player management basis and doesnt stop Jones form using players form outside it...but does give a pretty strong indication of the players hes got longer term views on.

Overall though as Ive said several times before on this thread i would be very surprised to see a squad with fundamental differences from the world cup one for the 6 nations. A few obvious places where there should be some fresh options given spots (SH, FB, 8, possibly hooker) in the training group even if the first 15 remains stable. The injuries are forcing a fair churn of opportunities elsewhere and the summer will see what amounts to a Saxons side touring. This 6 nations is about the seasoned campaigners proving they still have it, the summer is about the fresh faces making a statement for the future. the Autumn is where we see the direction England are going for the following 3 years fleshed out and we see players pensioned off.

No need for a big bang ripping up of things, but plenty of scope for a gradual evolution of the side.

by Mr Bounce Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:56 pm

Going by Underhill's previous injury history, it's theoretically possible that both Tom and Ben Curry could end up as our flankers. Unlikely but possible. He has been on Eddie's radar before - didn't Tom replace Ben before the Baa-Baas game, played a blinder and then toured Argentina? (I seem to recall Underhill starting the 2nd test for his 1st cap in the 7 shirt).

The back row is not something that we're short of options in. Dombrandt surely must be in the mix this season along with Ben Curry.

Does anyone know when the 6 Nations squad is announced??

by lostinwales Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:01 pm

Mr Bounce wrote:Going by Underhill's previous injury history, it's theoretically possible that both Tom and Ben Curry could end up as our flankers. Unlikely but possible. He has been on Eddie's radar before - didn't Tom replace Ben before the Baa-Baas game, played a blinder and then toured Argentina? (I seem to recall Underhill starting the 2nd test for his 1st cap in the 7 shirt).

The back row is not something that we're short of options in. Dombrandt surely must be in the mix this season along with Ben Curry.

Does anyone know when the 6 Nations squad is announced??

I believe Ben was originally the 1st choice. Bad luck for him but England have not done so badly with Tom.

by Geordie Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:20 pm

A flank pairing of the Curry twins would not be bad at all.

Is there anything to stop Saracens holding back their international players?
And would they actually do it?

by Guest Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:23 pm

Cumbrian wrote:I've seen it mentioned before, and I am starting to agree, that Billy may have been 'found out' a little. He is still an important player and one of the first names on the teamsheet, but he doesn't seem as effective as he used to be. Having a player that offers a different style might be helpful.

Last season Billy V was at his best imo. He was looking top class and was getting comfortable with using his footwork and handling and not just his bulk. No way is he finished.

by BamBam Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:34 pm

The new coaching team has been announced

Matt Proudfoot -forwards coach
Simon Amor - attack coach
Steve Borthwick - skills coach
John Mitchell - defence

https://www.englandrugby.com/news/article/amor-and-proudfoot-join-england-mens-coaching-team

Borthwick as skills coach seems an interesting one, although I might be underestimating his coaching!

by Mr Bounce Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:35 pm

I agree. Billy is far from done. Just think about bringing the intensity of the NZ match with Billy, putting a hatful of points against a side that are tired and demoralised, and then have them have to deal with Dombrandt. Ouch.

by **LondonTiger** Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:42 pm

Mr Bounce wrote:
Does anyone know when the 6 Nations squad is announced??

Next Monday I believe.

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