Glasgow and Edinburgh Ongoing Banter Thread 26

[Hazel Sapling]

First topic message reminder :

A continuation on previous threads discussing the past, the present and the future of Scottish rugby. A dose a day, keeps optimism away

Halfway through a Covid season and not far from the Rainbow cups, both teams are on the precipice of missing out on the top tier in Europe next year. The Rainbow Cup is a well thought out idea of including sides from South Africa, the home to a new Covid variant that vaccines may not work on, with international travel involving several regions of Europe.

Glasgow Squad

LH: Kebble, Bhatti, Lambert
Hooker: F Brown, Turner, Stewart, Matthews,
TH: Z Fagerson, Berghan, Pieretto, McCallum, McQuillan
Locks: Cummings, R Gray, Harley, McDonald, Bain, Bean
Back Row: Wilson, Gordon, M Fagerson, Darge, Dempsey, Miller, G Brown

SH: Price, G Horne, Dobie, Kennedy
FH: Weir, Miotti, P Horne, Thompson
Centres: S Johnson, McDowall, Tuipulotu, Grigg, Fergusson
Back Three: McLean, Forbes, McKay, Cancelliere, Tagive, Steyn, O Smith


Edinburgh Squad

LH: Schoeman, Venter, Grahamslaw
Hooker: McInally, Cherry, McBurney, Harrison
TH: Nel, De Bruin, Atalifo, Williams
Locks: Gilchrist, Toolis, Young, Hodgson, Sykes, Phillips
Back Row: Mata, Ritchie, Watson, Bradbury, Crosbie, Haining, Boyle, Kunavula, Muncaster

SH: Pyrgos, Vellacott, Shiel
FH: VDW, Chamberlain, Savala
Centres: Lang, Taylor, Bennett, Dean, Johnstone, Venter, Currie, Hutchison
Back Three: Graham, Kinghorn, Hoyland, Blain, Bofelli, Moyano, Immelman, Owsley


Previous Thread
https://www.606v2.com/t69760-the-glasgow-and-edinburgh-general-chat-discussions-are-limited-to-6-people-before-10pm-to-prevent-the-spread-of-jimboish
https://www.606v2.com/t69555-glasgow-and-edinburgh-ongoing-banter-thread-24-covid-funtimes?highlight=banter
https://www.606v2.com/t69038-glasgow-and-edinburgh-banter-thread-no-23-new-season-new-thread?highlight=banter

[TheMildlyFranticLlama]

https://twitter.com/SDM_Robertson/status/1417062722475339780?s=20

Having had constructive conversations with Jim Mallinder and Mark Dodson post season it was agreed that we would come to an agreement where I would leave the club by mutual consent to pursue other opportunities

Sounds like there was a disagreement over something, possibly funding related. It's a shame, Cockers has been great for the club and now won't get to lead the team out in the new stadium. However, it was looking increasingly like we'd gone as far as we could together. Slightly worried about who we're going to find to replace him mind you. Hopefully their first task on day 1 is handing a P45 to Duncan Hodge - that in itself would be a huge relief!

[tigertattie]

Great. Just great.

You all know what’s going to happen eh!

Hodge promoted to senior gaffer.

[Dollar Bill]

Reckon Cockerill has finally had enough of the SRU penny pinching.

He is an ambitious coach and the SRU are happy for Edinburgh and Glasgow to drift along as long as the Scotland side are doing ok. He is wasting his time at Edinburgh. Came for a bit of redemption and has done a great job of making Edinburgh professional and hard nosed. His reward? Asset strip the squad.
Couldn’t even hang on to Sau, who has gone to play second division rugby in France,

When was the last truly high profile player either side signed?

Look who has been allowed to leave Edinburgh in the last two seasons and look who has come in…. Pretty laughable really

With the South African sides joining we will be back to being cannon fodder again along with the Italians.

Does anyone being objective think that the Edinburgh squad is capable of winning more than a handful of matches again this season. Cockerill has clearly come to the same conclusion and I can’t say I blame him

We will now launch a worldwide search for a successor and appoint the Macrae Hodge dream ticket.

As to the mugs who have bought a season ticket for Edinburgh this season it’s going to be drab fare yet again

[TheMildlyFranticLlama]

I'm waiting for them to announce an appointment before I descend into full Private Fraser mode, but it's clear that belts are being tightened by the SRU and any coach who is looking to kick a team on is going to struggle to do more with less.

The more I think about it the more I could get on board with Blair as a replacement. If by some inexplicable series of events they decide Hodge is head coach material I won't even subject myself to the inevitable descent to the bottom of the league table

[EST]

I'm not surprised he left - given how bad our season was, and the complete collapse the season before, it was clear he's taken the team as far as he can.

It's more the timing and the fact there were no rumours at all. Which makes me think it happened a while ago or is very fresh!

I'm on the same page as this, I don't think he could have taken Edinburgh any further with the current squad or the budget available - he can make a team belligerent and tough to beat, but the overall game plan is very uninspiring.

[BigGee]

As to the mugs who have bought a season ticket for Edinburgh this season it’s going to be drab fare yet again

Some of us would say that it has been pretty drab watching Edinburgh in any case over the past few seasons, even when they were winning!

[TheMildlyFranticLlama]

Oooft, kick us when we're down Gee!

[BigGee]

Edinburgh still have some good and dangerous players as well as some half decent young kids coming through.

Unfortunately the budget and the model is different in Scotland to that in England and France and I am not sure that Cockers ever quite got his head around that. Some of our better players will always want to move on, for money and the chance to play and test themselves in other leagues.

Sutherland may have wanted away in any case, even if the SRU had come up with another 100K/year to keep him as Cockerill clearly preferred Schoeman as his first choice.

If the SRU had caved on that one, then everyone else would have been queuing up for a rise as well.

The stars either moved on or retired in Glasgow as well, but they have gone about quietly re-building and that's what Edinburgh need to do as well.

Hopefully they won't lose the work ethic Cockers has given them but the fans might be pleased with a new broom next season and more so with a new style of play.

[BigGee]

Oooft, kick us when we're down Gee!

Your welcome

[funnyExiledScot]

Not much I can say that will get through the swear filter. Cockers has his flaws, but he's by a distance the best coach we've had, and he has greatly improved the culture at the club.

I suspect this is about money, and the squad going backwards (which it has).

Still, plenty young talent in the squad and a competitive pack, so we should be able to get someone good. If it's Hodge, I want a refund on my season tickets!!

[jimbopip]

Apparently Cockers and Malinder had a full and frank discussion about finances just before pre-season started. It seems that Cockers had presented the club with an eye wateringly large chiropractor's bill.
Malinder explained that if any club was to underwrite the remedial work required to straighten Cockers' spine it should be Tiggers as it was in their front row that all the damage would have been done.
Cockers politely replied that his back was fine when he left Welford Road and even better when he arrived at the Library.

"It's carrying that feccer Hodge that's done it !" Was his parting shot.

[RDW]

Zander signs a long-term deal with Glasgow. Given he's mentioned wanting to play in different leagues recently, that's a good bit of business.

[Welshmushroom]

Edinburgh going to struggle to replace him. Not many quality experienced coaches about which might mean they end up going with a rookie ex player. I just don't think that will be a good move. They need someone who has been there and done it at coaching level as it's so key. Hopefully the SRU will have learned from the Welsh Regions who have tried these types of experiments a million times and not a single success story. They need someone with experience of top level coaching/selections, especially as I can see next season become one of the most competitive seasons us fans have seen.

[TheMildlyFranticLlama]

Anyone got a Times subscription? Intrigued to see what this says:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/john-barclay-cockers-was-an-agent-of-positive-change-at-the-start-but-he-was-a-malign-presence-thereafter-2gwv7q7pq

Obviously haven’t read it yet but on the face of it Barclay isn’t someone who’s views on coaches I’d be too inclined to pay much attention to given his track record. It’ll be interesting to see what if anything other Edinburgh players come out with

[TheMildlyFranticLlama]

Actually just read the full article and while I’m still taking it with a pinch of salt some of the points are certainly very fair regarding the reluctance to evolve the teams playing style and total absence of plan B. Also players not being license to adapt to what they see in front of them on the pitch certainly rings true. Interesting article!

[BigGee]

Zander signs a long-term deal with Glasgow. Given he's mentioned wanting to play in different leagues recently, that's a good bit of business.

That is a real coup for Glasgow and for DW, especially as he was hinting about moving on in an interview earlier this year. He could command top dollar ad a Lions TH now and so must be pleased with the direction Glasgow are moving in now.

He is still young as well and still had time to try another lesgue for his next move.

[EST]

Great news about Zander, I had marked him down as leaving. I's a bit of a cliche, but he is the type of player Wilson can build a team around.

[BigGee]

Here is the Times article by JB. You sense that he has been bidding his time to write this article!


I am sure somewhere down the line we will hear Cockers side of the story as well!



The news that Richard Cockerill has left his job as Edinburgh head coach caught many on the hop, but I was far from surprised to hear that the former England hooker had gone. Frankly, the only surprise is that he lasted as long as he did.

It has to be said that Cockers made some positive changes when he came into the job four years ago. At that time Edinburgh were seen as listless, rudderless and with a soft underbelly. There was a sense of complacency about the club, with players seemingly believing that playing professional rugby was enough and that winning was optional. There was no sense of common purpose with a lacklustre approach to standards.

So Edinburgh needed someone like Cockers back in 2017. They needed a firm, even autocratic leader. What they did not need was for him to hang around being firm and autocratic after he had knocked them into shape. He was an agent of positive change at the start, but he was a malign presence thereafter.

My two seasons under Cockers were a tough experience. A snapped achilles didn’t help, but my biggest frustration was not being able or allowed to contribute more to the team or put my experience — I had been a pro for more than 13 years when I joined — to good use. There is more than one way to skin a cat and I will be the first to admit it. But even during my brief time, the feeling of unrest and of an unsustainable environment was clear.

Cockers is an old-school coach, and you cannot help but admire his tenacity to stick to what he knows. “This is how we play and I won’t apologise for it” was the party line. He shouts, he rages, which is fine, if it is serving a greater intention. Embarrassing players before their peers never serves a team well however. Demanding total control — of everything — has the same effect. His eye for detail and his unrelenting focus on them is why he makes a difference at clubs. However this positive when overplayed turns into a vice.

Players need to drive the team with coaches guiding from the sides. Leaders should make leaders, creating a succession of leaders for the future, a continuity plan leaving a legacy of leaders. In this autocratic environment, I found little evidence of this. Decisions on the pitch were communicated from the sidelines. Edinburgh’s biggest issue during the brief time I was there revolved around an inability to solve problems on the pitch, a direct consequence of his refusal to trust the players.

There are times when team meetings should be tense and the riot act needs reading. This became the norm however and team meetings were far from pleasant affairs with players constantly reminded that they had failed, not a healthy landscape for the exchanges of ideas that characterises many successful teams.

When problems occurred in games, as was the norm, we would look to the sidelines for answers. The environment he created did not allow players to read a situation, take a game by the scruff of the neck, make bold and brave decisions and drive a team on. Players (who showed themselves to be perfectly adaptable playing for Scotland) had no option but to fall in line when the bombs were going off and nobody stuck their head above the parapet for fear of being ripped to shreds the following Monday.

In modern times rugby clubs have evolved like most professional sports and a more integrated/collegiate approach is more common. A shared leadership model is the norm with a flatter hierarchy. Modern coaches seeing the value of the environment and the greater picture; creating a common goal and higher purpose empowers a team, strengthening the bonds within. Coaches learn from players and vice versa. Players are no longer used to — and no longer accepting of — being shouted at, told what to do and then reviewed and told if they succeeded or not. Players are involved throughout. Senior player groups work with coaches.

Under Cockers, Edinburgh developed a style based on being tough up front, well disciplined and physical. He undoubtedly did this, making Edinburgh a tough team to beat.

I joined Edinburgh off the back of playing against them for Scarlets and recognising just how much the team had improved in their physicality and discipline alone. It worked against some teams and it brought some respect, but it was inflexible and was snail paced to evolve. Against bigger sides that plan A was found out and there was no plan B to turn to. Edinburgh’s record in knockout games under Cockers was terrible.

It was no surprise that rumours of player unrest began to trickle out last season. Cockers had arguably lost the dressing room years before. Young players who had grown up dreaming of playing professional rugby faced a grim reality with Cockers. Some thrived under it; players that enjoyed the hard line approach. Some players need an arm around them at their lowest ebbs. That arm was never going to be forthcoming.

Darge has been reborn since his move to Glasgow
Darge has been reborn since his move to Glasgow
ALAN HARVEY/SNS GROUP
A few departed, disillusioned, with no plan ever to play rugby again. Promising players were made to feel peripheral. Rory Darge hardly got a look-in under Cockers and has been sensational since his move to Glasgow. Callum Hunter-Hill was another who was given little game time but he has since become a regular starter with Saracens. Rory Sutherland was languishing in the ranks of amateur rugby but 18 months ago. Gregor Townsend saw his potential, trusted him and empowered him to go and play. Now look where he is.

I actually feel very positive about Edinburgh’s prospects post-Cockerill. The club has some outstanding players — a back row of Hamish Watson, Jamie Ritchie and Bill Mata would be the envy of any club — and they will feel invigorated and energised by the appointment of a new coach. In their new ground they will become a fine team to watch.

Hopefully, some of the habits he instilled will remain, and the foundations he laid are solid; the players will continue to value internal discipline creating an environment where high standards are demanded, whilst always understanding that mistakes are part of the game.

Cockers insisted on high standards and professionalism and many of Edinburgh’s players will feel the benefit of playing under him for years to come.

This feels like a second chance for some players. Rugby careers are short and it is important to ensure you squeeze every drop of enjoyment out of it along the way. Of course there are hard spells, and drops in form, and teams struggle. But it’s still meant to be fun. And for too many years Edinburgh hasn’t been a fun place to work.

[Brendan]

Not sure if the SRU would go for him or if He wants to get back into coaching but what would be the opinion on Cheika taking up the role.

He would get the team playing 15 man rugby yet would probably keep the pack going ok. Good experince who needs a bit of a rebuild after Oz and knows what is needed to win. He also has coached in the league so knows what it's about.

Could have him mentor a younger man to take over after his three years.

He won the Champions Cup and Super Rugby while also helping to get Leinster to get a winning mentality. He also came close to winning the Challenge Cup reaching a final and semi with Stade.

[Dollar Bill]

Seem to want someone cuddly so maybe Mr Tumble is looking for a gig?

No less likely than Cheika methinks

[Hazel Sapling]

Alex Allan has managed to find a new club according to Wiki. Anyone heard of Hong Kong Scottish?

Seiuli is off to the Dragons. Should be a decent fit, think he will make a good second choice there.

[RDW]

TBH I think a lot of what what he says is probably true and explains a lot about what went on the last 18 months.

I'm not sure if the Cheika idea is a serious one but there's absolutely no chance - we can neither afford him plus his sites are set very much higher than Edinburgh!

[BigGee]

TBH I think a lot of what what he says is probably true and explains a lot about what went on the last 18 months.

I'm not sure if the Cheika idea is a serious one but there's absolutely no chance - we can neither afford him plus his sites are set very much higher than Edinburgh!

I wonder if the SRU won't be quite so keen on the big named coaches, who don't come cheap. Rennie and to a lesser extent Cockerill have been a mixed bag. Plenty of good stuff from them, but they have both left quite a bit of division in their wake and a lot of unhappy players.

I suspect we might continue with the grow your own approach for the next while. Blair looks ready for the step up and Dalziel may not be that far behind him and Murchie seems to be well thought of. Moving along a bit further, there may be other ex international players, like Laidlaw who may well fancy a move into coaching.

[RDW]

The new forwards coach would be an interesting one - if Blair is head coach we'll need a forwards coach. Roddy Grant is making a real name for himself in Ulster but seems pretty settled there.

Dalziel is Scotland forwards coach so would only move for the head coach role. Plus I'd rather he keeps going with his good work with our forwards!

[BigGee]

The new forwards coach would be an interesting one - if Blair is head coach we'll need a forwards coach. Roddy Grant is making a real name for himself in Ulster but seems pretty settled there.

Dalziel is Scotland forwards coach so would only move for the head coach role. Plus I'd rather he keeps going with his good work with our forwards!

Nel seems likely to move into the Edinburgh coaching set up, certainly for scrummaging and possibly into a general forwards coaching role.

[RDW]

A thought I've had on the Cockers situation - as much as we've had a few players leave we'ev also had some significant re-signings. Ritchie and Watson in particular signed a few months ago now.

That could point to a few things. Either they knew that they would last longer at Edinburgh than Cockers and that he was on his way out, or they had a better opinion on him that Barclay did. There's no secret that Barclay didn't have a good time at Edinburgh, particularly given Cockers apparently wanted to cancel the deal when he ruptured his achillies.

Basically, if things were that bad why would some of our biggest assets want to stay?

[EWT Spoons]

A thought I've had on the Cockers situation - as much as we've had a few players leave we'ev also had some significant re-signings. Ritchie and Watson in particular signed a few months ago now.

That could point to a few things. Either they knew that they would last longer at Edinburgh than Cockers and that he was on his way out, or they had a better opinion on him that Barclay did. There's no secret that Barclay didn't have a good time at Edinburgh, particularly given Cockers apparently wanted to cancel the deal when he ruptured his achillies.

Basically, if things were that bad why would some of our biggest assets want to stay?

In short = money.

Watson wanted away, but Edinburgh are paying him obscene numbers. Given the rumours of his contract, I'd put up with being shouted at a bit and generally not treated very well for that. He's the highest paid player, by a considerable distance, at the club...apparently

For Ritchie it's probably slightly different as we all rate him highly, but he's probably not rated high enough by other clubs to pay him more than he'd get with Edinburgh, or not enough to justify a move.

[BigGee]

Glasgow get La Rochelle and Exeter in the Champs cup next season!

No great expectation there then but hopefully we can give it a good lash without any pressure.

[Welly]

A thought I've had on the Cockers situation - as much as we've had a few players leave we'ev also had some significant re-signings. Ritchie and Watson in particular signed a few months ago now.

That could point to a few things. Either they knew that they would last longer at Edinburgh than Cockers and that he was on his way out, or they had a better opinion on him that Barclay did. There's no secret that Barclay didn't have a good time at Edinburgh, particularly given Cockers apparently wanted to cancel the deal when he ruptured his achillies.

Basically, if things were that bad why would some of our biggest assets want to stay?

In short = money.

Watson wanted away, but Edinburgh are paying him obscene numbers.  Given the rumours of his contract, I'd put up with being shouted at a bit and generally not treated very well for that.  He's the highest paid player, by a considerable distance, at the club...apparently

For Ritchie it's probably slightly different as we all rate him highly, but he's probably not rated high enough by other clubs to pay him more than he'd get with Edinburgh, or not enough to justify a move.

IDK I think Ritchie could've gotten good money elsewhere.
It's a tricky one, having seen Cockers as Tigers head coach for nearly 10 years, there are players who will go through walls for him.
Just because Barclay thought everything fell apart when he left doesn't mean he reflects the whole squad also.
Cockers is divisive, he admits that but the narley forwards that at winter will be grinding out results will be the ones who appreciate him the most.


Here's what I don't get about JB article. He acts like Edinburgh have gone down hill in the last couple of seasons.
It wasn't 12 months ago that Edinburgh missed out on the pro 14 final by 3 points that was literally in September.
This season you had 1 month pre season.
DVDM played 2 games in the pro 14
Watson played 4 games
Ritchie played 2 games
Berghan 5 games
Kinghorn 3 games
Graham 4 games
Which doesn't get mentioned by Barclay

Cockerill at Tigers lost the changing room from attack minded backs who wanted the club to play a more attack focused game and didn't really get the chance to ever really have a top backroom staff members that he could pick.
Tigers Board didn't want to spend money on a top coach so hire a coach the players liked.
Said coach got fired
Tigers promoted a really well liked Player to head coach
Tigers finished 11th twice
Tigers finally concede to pressure and spend some money (Also boot the people who was in charge of contracts etc)

History so far seems to be repeating itself.

[BigGee]

Bruce Flockhart officially leaves the warriors. He has remained on the books despite having a year away from the game with some mental health issues, from which he unfortunately does not seem to have picked up. He was a very promising player and this is a great shame.

He has been very open about it and interestingly, very complimentary about Dave Rennie, who he said took his issues very seriously and was a great help to him.

Just goes to show that every coach seems to be a mixed bag. For every player that falls out with the coach, another will think he is sliced bread!

I guess you can't please all the people all the time.

[TheMildlyFranticLlama]

Basically, if things were that bad why would some of our biggest assets want to stay?

Exactly this, this is why I have such a strong suspicion that Barclay's comments are clouded by his own bias and not something that can be taken as a true indication of the environment at Edinburgh without further corroboration.

Anyway, no news about a replacement for Cockers yet? If it's going to be an internal SRU appointment it would be something they could announce pretty quickly, no?

[TheMildlyFranticLlama]

Anyway, no news about a replacement for Cockers yet? If it's going to be an internal SRU appointment it would be something they could announce pretty quickly, no?

SRU literally just announced Blair as the head coach, quite pleased with that I think it's a good appointment personally

https://www.scottishrugby.org/news/mike-blair-appointed-edinburgh-rugby-head-coach

Just need to bin Hodge now

[BigGee]

Anyway, no news about a replacement for Cockers yet? If it's going to be an internal SRU appointment it would be something they could announce pretty quickly, no?

SRU literally just announced Blair as the head coach, quite pleased with that I think it's a good appointment personally

https://www.scottishrugby.org/news/mike-blair-appointed-edinburgh-rugby-head-coach

Just need to bin Hodge now

Or maybe Hodge might actually get a chance to play some backs moves now?

[TheMildlyFranticLlama]

Or maybe Hodge might actually get a chance to play some backs moves now?

I would be very against the blind faith approach of hoping that Hodge suddenly now shows some coaching ability. If he had anything about him he would've found a way to work with Cockers to make a mark on how the team plays, that he failed entirely to do so tells us what we need to know about him. Change definitely needed there!

[jimbopip]

Ok, two big stories.

Bruce Flockhart...a huge amount of potential and some very good performances in a Glasgow shirt: however, his own wellbeing is by far the most important thing. We can only thank him and wish him all the best in whatever he chooses to do next.

Mikey Blair shall henceforth be known as the Thane Of Cawdor. No more needs to be said.

[cakeordeath]

Not much I can say that will get through the swear filter. Cockers has his flaws, but he's by a distance the best coach we've had, and he has greatly improved the culture at the club.

This. There was a soft underbelly to Scottish rugby, and Cockers made good steps in resolving this, He had still quite a way to go. I don't actually blame him for some of the dross Edinburgh dished out this year, in my mind that ball is firmly in Hodges court. I really don't like to call for someone to lose their livelihood, but how he still have a coaching role at Edinburgh is beyond me. He strikes me as a pound shop toonie.

[EST]

I can see both sides of the Cockers debate, but tend to fall down on the side of it being the right time for him to move on.

When he came in you could see the passion he had for the job, he dragged the team up by the bootstraps kicking and screaming.  Contrast to last year and in almost every interview I saw or heard from him, he came across as really not that fussed about losing and making (probably somewhat justifiable) excuses - it was a very different vibe from when he first started.

Time will tell if Blair is a good appointment, but I think a fresh start and a new direction is welcomed.

[EST]

Bruce Flockhart officially leaves the warriors. He has remained on the books despite having a year away from the game with some mental health issues, from which he unfortunately does not seem to have picked up. He was a very promising player and this is a great shame.

He has been very open about it and interestingly, very complimentary about Dave Rennie, who he said took his issues very seriously and was a great help to him.

Just goes to show that every coach seems to be a mixed bag. For every player that falls out with the coach, another will think he is sliced bread!

I guess you can't please all the people all the time.

Very sorry to hear this, he looked a real prospect. Here's hoping he can stay well.

[tigertattie]

The more I read Barclay’s summary on things, the more I’m inclined to believe what he’s saying.

Hopefully Blair will take that hard nosed toughness that cockers installed and evolves Edinburgh in a more balanced and flexible team. Keep that hard underbelly but allow for variety when plan A isn’t working.

[funnyExiledScot]

I'm fine with the Blair appointment. It isn't an appointment of jaw dropping inspiration, but he's highly regarded and will clear sweat blood for the club to make things work.

Now I'd like a back room reshuffle, with Blair given free reign to pick his own people, rather than simply inheriting the current crop.

Hodge to Glasgow makes sense as a starter for 10...

[RDW]

I'm fine with the Blair appointment. It isn't an appointment of jaw dropping inspiration, but he's highly regarded and will clear sweat blood for the club to make things work.

Now I'd like a back room reshuffle, with Blair given free reign to pick his own people, rather than simply inheriting the current crop.

Hodge to Glasgow makes sense as a starter for 10...

Agree with all of this! Do we need a specific 'attack' coach with Blair now there? We've been without one for 7 years anyway.

What about forwards coach? Lawrie is still a bit too green for me particularly with a green head coach.

I like McRae as a defence coach - he can stay.

[George Carlin]

Can I just say on a thread where I won’t get sledged for saying it, I’m quite emotional to see a Lions test side with 4 Scottish starters. All I hope now is that they give a proper account of themselves and let the world see what they can do and why they were chosen.

I am so terribly bored out of my bejeezers with partisan, immediate screams that any player making a mistake should immediately be removed and replaced with one of the screamer’s countrymen. In particular I hope VdM has a great game because I’m so fed up with the dozen articles about him being defensively suspect. I hope he mashes Kolbe into the turf the first time he touches the ball.

The other thing I daren’t say is that Tom Curry’s hype train is deafeningly loud so I certainly would like to see the messiah status justified in this match.

[jimbopip]

Thanks for sharing GC.
Feeling sorry for Sutherland as he hasn't done a lot yet.
The other three are showing well. Price was in if Henshaw had passed.

[EST]

Can I just say on a thread where I won’t get sledged for saying it, I’m quite emotional to see a Lions test side with 4 Scottish starters. All I hope now is that they give a proper account of themselves and let the world see what they can do and why they were chosen.

I am so terribly bored out of my bejeezers with partisan, immediate screams that any player making a mistake should immediately be removed and replaced with one of the screamer’s countrymen. In particular I hope VdM has a great game because I’m so fed up with the dozen articles about him being defensively suspect. I hope he mashes Kolbe into the turf the first time he touches the ball.

The other thing I daren’t say is that Tom Curry’s hype train is deafeningly loud so I certainly would like to see the messiah status justified in this match.

I was really proud of how our lads performed. I always felt that our very, very best players over the last two decades or so would have acquitted themselves well if given the opportunity to play in a test, despite the general malaise Scottish Rugby has been in, and so it proved on the weekend.

It's been sadly predictable to see the majority of commentators and pundits calling for them to be replaced by (insert pundit's countryman), but I think they can all hold their heads high. I thought Price in particular played really well, some of the chat before the game was like he had never box kicked the ball before.

[BigGee]

I thought all the Scottish players played well, even Sutherland, who took a little while to settle (not really that surprising in his 1st Lions Test) had a pretty solid game and really did not do so much wrong and it would be harsh to have dropped him.

The other three starters played really well and barely put a foot wrong, which is what wins you tight games like these.

Lions selections, despite the facade of all being in it together, are always partisan. Particularly when you introduce Scottish players who are taking away spots from the more established Lions. Hopefully now we are back at the party, we will stay there and maybe won't be so looked down on in the future.

[jimbopip]

It seems Wynn Jones is still crocked so Sutherland will be in the 23 no matter what. I think he'll start again. Although he's more mobile than Mako so coming on against a tired pack could work well for him.

[Anglobraveheart]

Shame about Wyn Jones, but it gives others a chance. That's life.
There was talk in the press that SA may swap their starting front row. I dunno if that will make much difference on our chaps. There's some guff elsewhere about RS not being up to it, but he pretty much got stuck in for 60 mins and took the onslaught of the first half.
By the time BV came on for his 20 minute effort, the first thing he did was flop down like a flounder.
RS will settle better in the second game. He needs to start
I hope Finn is involved, as Farrell is just off. Turgid.
And we need Harris on at 13, as Elliot Daly disappeared after he got flattened.

[RDW]

So Rory Sutherland did a live Q&A last night - Hogg and Furlong came on asking him his thoughts on Cockerill leaving Edinburgh, and whether it was true that he was moving to coach Worcester!

He didn't reply, it is fair to say. I wonder if that's them just taking the piss or if there is anything behind it...

We obviously don't know the sequence of events here and the actual reasons for them leaving, but it would be quite ironic if the reason for them leaving was partly due to Cockers and he then followed them to Worcester!

[George Carlin]

Shame about Wyn Jones, but it gives others a chance. That's life.
There was talk in the press that SA may swap their starting front row. I dunno if that will make much difference on our chaps. There's some guff elsewhere about RS not being up to it, but he pretty much got stuck in for 60 mins and took the onslaught of the first half.
By the time BV came on for his 20 minute effort, the first thing he did was flop down like a flounder.
RS will settle better in the second game. He needs to start
I hope Finn is involved, as Farrell is just off. Turgid.
And we need Harris on at 13, as Elliot Daly disappeared after he got flattened.

Yes, I think that the fans from other nations have a lot of entitlement when it comes to expecting to see their nation's players in a starting 23. Displacing that has been the cause of a lot of angst on these boards.

4 years is a long time in rugby and quite a few of the players who did well against New Zealand in 2017 (eg Farrell, Murray, Faletau, Liam Williams) are simply not playing as well now. That's why form in the 6N this year mattered so much to Gatland.

[lostinwales]

Team is up on the other thread. No Russell. Vunipola and RS swap, as do Murray and Price. Harris in but H Watson replaced on the subs bench by Faletau.

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