Glasgow and Edinburgh Ongoing Banter Thread 26

[Hazel Sapling]

First topic message reminder :

A continuation on previous threads discussing the past, the present and the future of Scottish rugby. A dose a day, keeps optimism away

Halfway through a Covid season and not far from the Rainbow cups, both teams are on the precipice of missing out on the top tier in Europe next year. The Rainbow Cup is a well thought out idea of including sides from South Africa, the home to a new Covid variant that vaccines may not work on, with international travel involving several regions of Europe.

Glasgow Squad

LH: Kebble, Bhatti, Lambert
Hooker: F Brown, Turner, Stewart, Matthews,
TH: Z Fagerson, Berghan, Pieretto, McCallum, McQuillan
Locks: Cummings, R Gray, Harley, McDonald, Bain, Bean
Back Row: Wilson, Gordon, M Fagerson, Darge, Dempsey, Miller, G Brown

SH: Price, G Horne, Dobie, Kennedy
FH: Weir, Miotti, P Horne, Thompson
Centres: S Johnson, McDowall, Tuipulotu, Grigg, Fergusson
Back Three: McLean, Forbes, McKay, Cancelliere, Tagive, Steyn, O Smith


Edinburgh Squad

LH: Schoeman, Venter, Grahamslaw
Hooker: McInally, Cherry, McBurney, Harrison
TH: Nel, De Bruin, Atalifo, Williams
Locks: Gilchrist, Toolis, Young, Hodgson, Sykes, Phillips
Back Row: Mata, Ritchie, Watson, Bradbury, Crosbie, Haining, Boyle, Kunavula, Muncaster

SH: Pyrgos, Vellacott, Shiel
FH: VDW, Chamberlain, Savala
Centres: Lang, Taylor, Bennett, Dean, Johnstone, Venter, Currie, Hutchison
Back Three: Graham, Kinghorn, Hoyland, Blain, Bofelli, Moyano, Immelman, Owsley


Previous Thread
https://www.606v2.com/t69760-the-glasgow-and-edinburgh-general-chat-discussions-are-limited-to-6-people-before-10pm-to-prevent-the-spread-of-jimboish
https://www.606v2.com/t69555-glasgow-and-edinburgh-ongoing-banter-thread-24-covid-funtimes?highlight=banter
https://www.606v2.com/t69038-glasgow-and-edinburgh-banter-thread-no-23-new-season-new-thread?highlight=banter

[RDW]

Aye he's been a great servant for Scotland and Glasgow but in truth has been in rapid decline the last couple of years, which happens to wingers when they're on the wrong side of 30.

Some standout performances for Scotland over the years and he was completely deserving of his 2017 Lions callup. Finished top try scorer too!

[bsando]

https://www.glasgowwarriors.org/news/seymour-retires-from-professional-rugby

Link from Glasgow Warriors website

Yep Seymour was a joy to have on the wing and the Seymour, Maitland and Hogg back three combo served Scotland very well for a number of years. He'll be missed by Scottish fans and hope he has success off the pitch in the next chapter of his life.

[EST]

Not unexpected, but still a shame he wasn't able to get a proper send-off.

He was really consistently good for nearly a decade - a difficult thing to achieve as an outside back. I can't think of many weaknesses in his game during that period; never the biggest or the quickest, but more than made up for it by being a really rounded player who was skilled at every part of the game.

[jimbopip]

It would seem that MadMad Mata, Selkirk Pixie and Robbie Nairn are all out of contract this summer.
Considering the back three players we have signed/promoted there may only be one space on the roster.
Any guesses?

For me, on recent form we should keep the Selkirk Pixie.

On total Batshit I Was Doing It Before Finn Finnsanity it has to be MadMad.

Robbie Nairn has youth on his side and may be cheaper than the other two.

[Hazel Sapling]

Not sure there will even be one spot Jimbo. If there is one spot available, it has to go to L Jones. He is still a good SQ player and covers 15.

Nairn has failed to hit an open goal this season when he could have established himself. If he is kept by the SRU, the 7's squad, the Washington-based side or the Super Six would make more sense than Glasgow.

Mata certainly had a huge hand in bringing Glasgow to the top table. He is an icon of the club but his time has passed and I am not sure what role he could realistically play at the club as a player. The new Super Rugby sides in the Pacific Islands could definitely use him and there will be clubs that may want to take a flyer on him in England or France. One of the big mistakes was becoming a winger, he was much more effective as a non-traditional option at 9 even if his passing was suspect.

[funnyExiledScot]

Tommy S calls it a day and officially retires.

No great surprise really but what a career he has had with the Warriors and  Scotland. We will certainly miss him.

First of a few stalwarts to move on this season I imagine.

https://www.glasgowwarriors.org/news/seymour-retires-from-professional-rugby

100%. Seymour and Hogg in tandem was a top top class combination and Seymour a razor-sharp finisher.

A proper Glasgow and Scotland legend.

[EST]

Not sure there will even be one spot Jimbo. If there is one spot available, it has to go to L Jones. He is still a good SQ player and covers 15.

Nairn has failed to hit an open goal this season when he could have established himself. If he is kept by the SRU, the 7's squad, the Washington-based side or the Super Six would make more sense than Glasgow.

Mata certainly had a huge hand in bringing Glasgow to the top table. He is an icon of the club but his time has passed and I am not sure what role he could realistically play at the club as a player. The new Super Rugby sides in the Pacific Islands could definitely use him and there will be clubs that may want to take a flyer on him in England or France. One of the big mistakes was becoming a winger, he was much more effective as a non-traditional option at 9 even if his passing was suspect.

100%. The first iteration of Madmata was a joy to behold and he's shown some flashes in this second period, but he is well past his best now. Nairn, i'm afraid, just isn't good enough to be a pro, all the physical tools but every time i've seen him he has made a couple of really basic errors.

[jimbopip]

EST, Hazel, II fully agree that Lee Jones is the one who has put in the most consistent performances but he is almost as old as Tommy Seymour. As someone on here pointed out once wingers go past 30 then they're on the down slope.

[RDW]

Edinburgh sign another Saffer - 25 year old outside back Henry Immelman. 75 appearances for Montpellier so a good level of experience.

Looks a big physical player and filling the hole left by Duhan.

[bsando]

Yeah that’s a good replacement and from DVDM’s old club no less. Seems a good fit for Edinburgh and NH style rugby.

[BigGee]

Yeah that’s a good replacement and from DVDM’s old club no less. Seems a good fit for Edinburgh and NH style rugby.

He will be available all season long as well, so could end up being better value than VDM.

[RDW]

I still can't believe Duhan is going to Worcester of all clubs, who would be odds on to be relegated this season if not for the ring fencing. They've won 1 in 17 games in the league. I'm sure if he'd waited until after the 6N for a new club his value would have been significantly higher.

[Hazel Sapling]

Always at risk of injury if you wait. If Worcester have offered DVDM £300k+, it is unlikely to get much better for a winger.

Worcester are not a bad side though they could do with 2-3 more players in the front 5. They will be fighting it out with LI and Newcastle as well as someone unexpected .

Hopefully Immelman won't block out Blain. When is Sau's contract up?

[bsando]

He signed a two year deal two years ago so not sure if that was extended recently? He’s looked to have hit some better form so wouod be good to retain him.

[EST]

EST, Hazel, II fully agree that Lee Jones is the one who has put in the most consistent performances but he is almost as old as Tommy Seymour. As someone on here pointed out once wingers go past 30 then they're on the down slope.

Yeah, I can see a situation where none of them are retained - can't help but think that a bit of continuity would be good in the backfield though, I think Jones would be good for one more season. Just checked to see how old he is, only three day difference between Tennessee Tam and the Pixie.

[jimbopip]

Agree 100% that keeping Jones for continuity would be a good idea. I think he has become very reliable and dependable (in a good way, before FES jumps in) in his time at Scotstoun.

[bsando]

Lee Jones came on the scene as a light weight but very fast winger. I remember thinking he was only in the squad because Scotland had no depth. But he has the perfect work ethic, much like Harris and others. The biggest part of his game that impressed me was how he became so physical despite his size. He should be getting swept aside when going for tries in the corner but more often than not he hands off players and bundles over the line.

His first Scotland cap was in 2012 if I'm not mistaken and he could easily play for Scotland again despite his last being in 2017. Well worth another two year contract if you ask me.

[RDW]

Are we really talking about the same Lee Jones...?

Solid experienced squad player for Glasgow, should be nowhere near the Scotland team!

[George Carlin]

I agree - we seem to be losing it a little. I blame Covid.

The Selkirk Pixie is not the future of Scotland, nor was he ever really the present. At least Barry McGuigan has actually scored tries for Scotland that weren't consolation tries at the end of a proper podgering.

[Hazel Sapling]

If L Jones is to get another cap it would be during this summer if Gatland took DVDM and Maitland, and we suffered 2-4 injuries to our wings (Graham, Blain, McLean, Kinghorn, McGuigan) as well as L Jones being preferred to Hoyland, Tagive, Steyn and O Smith. Slim chance but it is a chance.

He is a decent squad player to have in the back pocket for Glasgow to cover for international break but at this point in his career, a year at a time is appropriate.

[bsando]

I just have that wonderful step and hop over a collision of Wallaby players to set-up Watson for his try in Aus ingrained in my memory

[BigGee]

A dose of realism from Mark Palmer in the Sunday Times.



Ten years ago, I was in charge of public relations for Glasgow Warriors. In the summer of 2011, we set about selling season tickets with nothing like a spring in our step. The team had just finished second bottom of the then Magners League, when an average crowd of under 2,000 came to watch at Firhill, the ground that was rented from Partick Thistle, and where the Sky Sports cameras were once locked out on the morning of a Heineken Cup match because nobody had a key to get in.

There were a few promising young players coming through, in Stuart Hogg, Duncan Weir and Richie Gray, but the new signings we had to spin off were of the solid but unspectacular variety — Troy Nathan, Tom Ryder, Mike Cusack and the 23-year-old Tommy Seymour, who had just been released by Ulster. The ticket office would circulate a daily update on membership sales. It was the cue for mass rejoicing if the number had shifted at all. All told, I think we ended up selling something like 750 season tickets.

A decade on, and when Glasgow are allowed fans inside Scotstoun, the small but atmospheric venue they have very much made their home since 2012, they just about always sell the place out at over 7,000 covers. They have also regularly shifted all available season tickets in an era in which the likes of Hogg, Finn Russell and Jonny Gray have been lynchpins of both the team and marketing. Glasgow have won the league, reached another two finals — including one where they played in front of more than 47,000 people at Celtic Park — and twice made the Champions Cup knockout stages.

Glasgow’s recent defeat by Benetton was the result of the worst display of what has been a tough season
Glasgow’s recent defeat by Benetton was the result of the worst display of what has been a tough season
FOTOSPORT/DANIELE RESINI
It is worth recognising the contrast between then and now for a couple of reasons. Firstly, to remind ourselves just how far the Warriors brand has come either side of the white line in the past 10 years, and secondly, to highlight the importance of the SRU not allowing a regression.

Last week’s Rainbow Cup thrashing at the hands of Benetton — a woeful performance and result by any measure — has prompted a backlash from supporters, some of whom have called for the sacking of Danny Wilson, the head coach who has had the unenviable task of trying to plot a steady course through this most difficult of seasons.

Wilson, who was only appointed last summer, is in no danger of being dismissed at this stage, and not just on account of the SRU’s famously glacial reaction speeds. The uniquely challenging circumstances of this season mean it would be grossly unfair to judge any head coach, let alone one fresh in the door, on its grim yet fairly predictable outcomes.

Wilson, let’s not forget, has been denied the presence of the vast majority of his best players — on the training ground as well as on the pitch — for huge periods of the campaign. Other experienced figures, like Seymour and Kyle Steyn, have been absent with long-term injuries. There have been Covid cancellations, Covid absentees, and weather-related postponements, all of which have thwarted any sense of rhythm.

That’s before acknowledging several years of poor recruitment prior to Wilson’s arrival, which meant he inherited a lopsided squad too dependent on the international players he rarely sees, and with insufficient insulation in his second string. Leading figures — Hogg, Russell, Gray — have departed and left a significant void. Wilson’s bid to put his own stamp on his squad was denied by an SRU recruitment freeze when the pandemic first struck. Only this summer will he be able to introduce new faces such as back Josh McKay, back-row Jack Dempsey, Scottish-qualified centre Sione Tuipuloto, Argentinian backs Sebastián Cancelliere and Domingo Miotti, and experienced Scotsmen Weir, Simon Berghan and Jamie Bhatti.

Glasgow, meanwhile, have been able to give meaningful opportunities to homegrown talents Ross Thompson, Rufus McLean, Jamie Dobie and Ollie Smith. The return of that quartet has also ensured the season will not be a competitive write-off.

There is regardless no doubt that the Warriors have underwhelmed, even when all the caveats are factored in. Wilson has sought to make them harder to beat without sacrificing that distinctive attacking verve, but instead, Glasgow have often appeared to be caught between two stools, with no real discernible style. Statistically and to the naked eye, both attack and defence deteriorated in the Pro14 this season, to the extent where there must be questions about the respective custodians of those areas, Jonny Bell and Kenny Murray. Will the SRU offer a sacrificial lamb to lower the heat on Wilson, who they promoted from Scotland forwards coach despite a lack of conspicuous success in that role?

Nobody worth listening to contends that Wilson must ape the all-out attacking game that was so successful under Gregor Townsend but then became much more loose than fast towards the end of Dave Rennie’s three years in charge. At present, it is simply not clear what Glasgow stand for or what they want to be.

If it is not yet time for a complete transformation, Wilson’s Warriors have a lot of growing up to do, and quickly. A strong end to this season and fast start to the next are essential if they are not to be left ruing how a decade of forward momentum came to a grinding halt.

[BigGee]

Probably worth noting for those that think DW is a waste of space, he is apparently on the shortlist for the current vacancy at Quins.

I don't think for a minute that he will be moving on, but he is still held in quite high regard in coaching circles.

[RDW]

Rumours of Rory Sutherland to Worcester (again)

[George Carlin]

Rumours of Rory Sutherland to Worcester (again)

[funnyExiledScot]

Rumours of Rory Sutherland to Worcester (again)

Dreadful if true. Bad enough that Duhan's agent shat the bed, but Sutherland really should be aiming higher. He should join the Scottish revolution at Exeter. He'd be perfect there.

[funnyExiledScot]

Edinburgh sign another Saffer - 25 year old outside back Henry Immelman. 75 appearances for Montpellier so a good level of experience.

Looks a big physical player and filling the hole left by Duhan.

I've watched the obligatory YouTube footage and this chap looks useful. I also hope that we can get a good run of games from George Taylor and Eroni Sau next season, all players with that extra physicality in the collision.

[EST]

Probably worth noting for those that think DW is a waste of space, he is apparently on the shortlist for the current vacancy at Quins.

I don't think for a minute that he will be moving on, but he is still held in quite high regard in coaching circles.

I definitely don't think he is a waste of space, only the most militant of the GW fans seem to be calling on him to go.

I think Mark Palmers article sums it up pretty well, he's been dealt a terrible hand but that notwithstanding the team perhaps isn't firing as it should be.

Overall the recruitment has been really positive with perhaps a couple more still to be announced, the arrival of Al Dickinson, Pete Murchie and the new S&C coach from Leinster are good steps forward in developing the coaching ticket and next season should see much less disruption - i'm cautiously optimistic that next season won't be the car crash this one has been, but no doubt Wilson will be under pressure to deliver.

[George Carlin]

Rumours of Rory Sutherland to Worcester (again)

Dreadful if true. Bad enough that Duhan's agent shat the bed, but Sutherland really should be aiming higher. He should join the Scottish revolution at Exeter. He'd be perfect there.

I'm assuming that all players out of contract (including Sutherland) will wait until the Lions squad has been announced before deciding how to present themselves to the job market. I would love Sutherland to tour but there are probably more fashionable alternatives than him.

Also, it reminds me that I am still half expecting a short book from Ryan Grant called How The Lions Ruined My Career.

[funnyExiledScot]

I'd be pleasantly surprised if Sutherland made it. A low slung front row of Porter, Cowan-Dickie and Sutherland could cause serious scrummaging issues for these Bok giants coming off the bench.

But...Wyn Jones will go (rightly), Mako will go (despite the Boks and almost every other decent scrummager having him on toast) and then I suspect one of Healy (rightly if fit) or Genge (another whose scrum technique can wobble).

As you say, more fashionable options.

If Worcester is the only option, Duhan and Sutherland should just stay put.

[Hazel Sapling]

Sutherland should make the Lions squad based on the last 2 years of performances. The problem with Scotland is we don't have the media that Wales and Ireland have that push their players forwards.

Trying to think of the ideal squad for Sutherland in England that can fit him under the cap then I remember that recent Scottish props have gone south and struggled for one reason or another (Welsh, Reid, Dell). Gloucester could be an interesting fit on paper but the off the field mess from last year does not suggest it is a great environment.

[funnyExiledScot]

He should go to France. He'd learn plenty in that uncompromising environment. Join Finn at Racing.

[EST]

Probably worth noting for those that think DW is a waste of space, he is apparently on the shortlist for the current vacancy at Quins.

I don't think for a minute that he will be moving on, but he is still held in quite high regard in coaching circles.

Wilson from the Herald today on the Quins move, not exactly a categorical denial - I wonder if he will be off after all?

“All I can say is that I am under contract with Glasgow and concentrating on the job in front of me, which is a long-term project that we’re all working towards and committed to,” stated Wilson. “That’s all I’ve got to say on it. It’s not often I’ll do that – I’m pretty straight – but that’s the situation and that’s all I’ve got to say on it.”

[BigGee]

Probably worth noting for those that think DW is a waste of space, he is apparently on the shortlist for the current vacancy at Quins.

I don't think for a minute that he will be moving on, but he is still held in quite high regard in coaching circles.

Wilson from the Herald today on the Quins move, not exactly a categorical denial - I wonder if he will be off after all?

“All I can say is that I am under contract with Glasgow and concentrating on the job in front of me, which is a long-term project that we’re all working towards and committed to,” stated Wilson. “That’s all I’ve got to say on it. It’s not often I’ll do that – I’m pretty straight – but that’s the situation and that’s all I’ve got to say on it.”

It would be very strange if Glasgow were to let him go now, unless they have someone else lined up for the job. As Quins, with bigger money and reputation, are struggling to find an established name, you can;t see how we would ever get one. Another grow your own coach might be the way to go with us, Dalziel and Blair are developing nicely and Murchie seems well thought of, all maybe a few years to soon to be a head coach though, but it will be interesting to see how Blair goes with Scotland this summer.

All the smart money is on Wilson staying, but you are right in that was not a categoric denial.

[EST]

Probably worth noting for those that think DW is a waste of space, he is apparently on the shortlist for the current vacancy at Quins.

I don't think for a minute that he will be moving on, but he is still held in quite high regard in coaching circles.

Wilson from the Herald today on the Quins move, not exactly a categorical denial - I wonder if he will be off after all?

“All I can say is that I am under contract with Glasgow and concentrating on the job in front of me, which is a long-term project that we’re all working towards and committed to,” stated Wilson. “That’s all I’ve got to say on it. It’s not often I’ll do that – I’m pretty straight – but that’s the situation and that’s all I’ve got to say on it.”

It would be very strange if Glasgow were to let him go now, unless they have someone else lined up for the job. As Quins, with bigger money and reputation, are struggling to find an established name, you can;t see how we would ever get one. Another grow your own coach might be the way to go with us, Dalziel and Blair are developing nicely and Murchie seems well thought of, all maybe a few years to soon to be a head coach though, but it will be interesting to see how Blair goes with Scotland this summer.

All the smart money is on Wilson staying, but you are right in that was not a categoric denial.

Absolutely, just assumed it was a journo needing to fill a few pages - but there would appear to be some substance to it.

[Hazel Sapling]

Agree with others that Wilson is on a hot seat next season and that may tempt him to jump ship. I fully expect him to stay and have a better season next year (i.e. return to Ulster/Munster level), but never say never.

[George Carlin]

Why on earth would Quins want Wilson? I'm just saying.

[funnyExiledScot]

Why on earth would Quins want Wilson? I'm just saying.

I can't see it. He needs to stick at Glasgow and be given a proper shot at turning things around. It's been an impossible season for many reasons, but at the heart of it has been injuries and the departure of key players without replacement. He hasn't become a bad coach overnight. He needs and deserves time.

[RDW]

8 Scots in the Lions squad. What a crazy world we live in!

[bsando]

Really happy for the players who got selected, some of those players really made a strong case for selection and it's nice to see that hard work has been rewarded.

Still a lot of rugby to play before the first test so who knows how many of those 8 players makes the starting XV.

[RDW]

You'd like to think the long wait for another test cap will be over with a decent representation this time. Hogg will be absolutely desperate to make a test after 2017.

[jimbopip]

8 Scots in the Lions squad. What a crazy world we live in!

Interestingly 5 of those players are backs. I think Toonie may have told gats that if he's backs coach then Gats has to trust him.

In the Lions thread Numbers predicted his Test XV and had 10-12 Farrell-Henshaw-Harris. The ball would never reach the back three. I was concerned that there would be three 10's going and Finn would be there as a token Scot; however it looks like there are two out and out 10's and Biggar may be in the driving seat but he will have to play out of his skin to stay there.

The likelihood of making the Test 23?

Sutherland and Xander are good enough to be on the bench at least.
Hamish should be the starting 7.
Aldi Price has a great chance of a bench spot, neither Murray nor Davies are light years ahead of him.
Finn would be many people's starting 10. He may miss out on a bench spot if it's a 6/2 split and Daly or Farrell as seen as covering more positions.
Harris is probably the best defensive 13 in the squad and Toonie really rates what he brings; I can see him in the Test 23.
Duhan is probably the least likely to be a Test player, mainly because he is woeful at defending. But then again, with Harris beside him
Hogg may just be the player of the tour.

[George Carlin]

8 Scots in the Lions squad. What a crazy world we live in!

Even stranger, Worcester have one Lion and potentially two....

[jimbopip]

8 Scots in the Lions squad. What a crazy world we live in!

Even stranger, Worcester have one Lion and potentially two....

5 Lions on show at Scotstoun for this Friday's Slaughter Of The Effeminates.

[funnyExiledScot]

Chris Harris is a Lion!! I guess us Scots can't really moan about under-representation ever again!!

Harris vs De Allende

[George Carlin]

Yes, the inevitable conclusion is that Toonie as backs coach was given a lot of rope to say whom he wanted and I suspect that's exactly what the echo chamber of other national press outlets are going to report (partisan decision making, jock jingoism, etc). Good thing that both Harris and VdM were in good form in the 6N and that's the part where including them is justifiable. I'm not sure that Price is justifiable for Scotland any more, never mind the Lions...

Given our paucity of representation in recent years (decades?), you would have to be an almighty tool as a member of the sports press to think that you can moan about there being more Scots than they may think appropriate. An almighty tool or under 30 with a poor grasp of rugby history, one of the two.

The real disputes are probably in terms of the forward pack through, which is bugger all to do with us Scots.

[funnyExiledScot]

I agree that Price is the luckiest of the Scots to tour, because the "form" justification doesn't really stick with him. He didn't have a bad 6 Nations, just patchy.

Don't think anyone can complain about the Duhan selection. Jonny May was terrible in the 6 Nations.

[Anglobraveheart]

Jonny May was terrible in the 6 Nations.

On that basis, Farrell should also be nowhere near the Lions, as he was terrible in so many ways.
I fail to see justification for either Farrell or Mako Vunipola. I raised this with some fellow coaches this evening, with the response that Farrell played well 4 years ago.
Maybe that is Gatland's justification also?

[funnyExiledScot]

Goal kicking, Finn Russell and the ability to play at 12. That's the Farrell justification. He's also a leader.

Agreed on Mako. I worry about him at the scrum. Probably helped Sutherland get on the plane.

[BigGee]

Goal kicking, Finn Russell and the ability to play at 12. That's the Farrell justification. He's also a leader.

Agreed on Mako. I worry about him at the scrum. Probably helped Sutherland get on the plane.

I think it is the other way around actually. Mako is only there because RS fitness is not a given and they can't take a chance on being a prop short.

They want to spend some time getting Mako fit in case he is needed!

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