LIV golf

Probably best for this to have its own thread...

Latest news is that 11 LIV players have sued the PGA tour. Here is a nice article on that https://golf.com/news/phil-mickelson-lawsuit-vs-pga-tour-revelations/?amp=1

Better stock up on popcorn, it looks like we will become privy to lots of juicy information which has been secret up to now.

Inco - Should be fun viewing for sure.

Still, I see these things as very straightforward: A former employee is suing his original employer to accommodate his new job - which, btw, is a direct competitor. Good luck with that.

It will be very interesting to see what the green jackets at Augusta do.

Shotrock wrote:Inco - Should be fun viewing for sure.

Still, I see these things as very straightforward: A former employee is suing his original employer to accommodate his new job - which, btw, is a direct competitor. Good luck with that.

It will be very interesting to see what the green jackets at Augusta do.

If you think any professional golfer is an employee of the PGA tour then you're off your rocker. PGA Tour just trying to maintain their monopoly on Pro golf and sh!ting themselves that they'll lose this case. PGA tour has been boring for years, they've got complacent thinking they would always maintain their monopoly and now, unless they get round the table and negotiate with LIV, I don't think they have a leg to stand on. Quite happy to previously play PGA tour events in Saudi as well.

The European Tour have even less of a case when trying to ban players as they've let players be members of their tour, and a rival tour (the PGA tour) for years, so there is no difference with them also playing the LIV tour.

And why would the green jackets at Augusta, or the organisers of the other 3 majors, care where players play the rest of the time? The majors are absolutely nothing to do with the PGA tour, which is absolutely 100% a good thing.

When you play on the PGA tour you sign a contract. I call it an employer contract. Semantics.

The tour may be boring to you, but the TV revenue, gate and endorsement money is very strong. Perhaps you can show me the massively declining numbers from this 'boring' tour?

Of course the ET can ban players. May not be the best move, but I would be curious to see what those contracts currently say.

If you don't think the Green Jackets/USGA/PGA are not looking at the LIV as competition you are nuts. It's competition they want to move aside. The majors have nothing to do with the PGA? How do you think so many qualify for these events? World ranking points (among other ways) from ranking point rich PGA events.

Listening to Davis Love on the stripe show podcast this week... he thinks if the LIV 11 are successful in their case and are allowed to play playoff events, there will be a player revolt.

DeChambeau apparently had already signed some sort of contract or agreement with LIV before he professed his commitment to the PGA Tour in February.

incontinentia wrote:Listening to Davis Love on the stripe show podcast this week... he thinks if the LIV 11 are successful in their case and are allowed to play playoff events, there will be a player revolt.

There will only be a player revolt because players are bitter they didn’t take the LIV money or weren’t offered it in the first place.

Wonder when Im and Kim will join LIV

In addition to the above, texts between Sergio and Shark have been made public. Sharky assures Garcia that the PGAT cannot ban him for a single day, let alone for life.

pedro wrote:

incontinentia wrote:Listening to Davis Love on the stripe show podcast this week... he thinks if the LIV 11 are successful in their case and are allowed to play playoff events, there will be a player revolt.

There will only be a player revolt because players are bitter they didn’t take the LIV money or weren’t offered it in the first place.

Yes indeed, a lot of top players were excited to join LIV, but declined due to the PGAT ban.

incontinentia wrote:In addition to the above, texts between Sergio and Shark have been made public. Sharky assures Garcia that the PGAT cannot ban him for a single day, let alone for life.

From a legal standpoint it’ll be interesting to see whether players are considered employees or independent contractors.

ralphjohn69 wrote:

Shotrock wrote:Inco - Should be fun viewing for sure.

Still, I see these things as very straightforward: A former employee is suing his original employer to accommodate his new job - which, btw, is a direct competitor. Good luck with that.

It will be very interesting to see what the green jackets at Augusta do.

If you think any professional golfer is an employee of the PGA tour then you're off your rocker.  PGA Tour just trying to maintain their monopoly on Pro golf and sh!ting themselves that they'll lose this case.  PGA tour has been boring for years, they've got complacent thinking they would always maintain their monopoly and now, unless they get round the table and negotiate with LIV, I don't think they have a leg to stand on.  Quite happy to previously play PGA tour events in Saudi as well.

The European Tour have even less of a case when trying to ban players as they've let players be members of their tour, and a rival tour (the PGA tour) for years, so there is no difference with them also playing the LIV tour.

And why would the green jackets at Augusta, or the organisers of the other 3 majors, care where players play the rest of the time?  The majors are absolutely nothing to do with the PGA tour, which is absolutely 100% a good thing.

The PGAT is player owned. So it is the players left on the PGAT that are trying to save it. Not some faceless corporate entity.

If they were actually employed it would be more straight forward to kick them out. But they’re not.
And which labour laws apply in PGAT events in Europe, Japan, Korea, Mexico?

The real elephant in the room is the OWGR. If they defacto can exclude LIV players from playing the majors, I think LIV would have a good anti trust case against them.

I'm quite sure the LIV guys are going to demand the PGA allow them back and their primary argument will be 'restraint of trade' -- which I'm sure they hope supersedes any existing employment agreement (ok independent contractor agreement). Still, a signed agreement.

The 54 hole competition is an entirely different matter. The PGA looks upon those tournaments (medal play) as events and not competitions. Will they get world ranking points?

And the biggest elephant in the room is will the US courts find the 15 tournament minimum rule enforceable? Add those 15 events to the 14 LIV events players must compete in and there's no way Phil/Dustin/Sergio/etc. will play that frequently in a given year.

New OWGR points system just out.

Minimum ranking points have been scrapped, except for the Majors AND The Players.

As the OWGR is the entry route for the Majors and with the new LIV anti trust lawsuit in mind, I think the OWGR could also end up being in trouble, by giving special status to the flagship event of a particular Tour. IMO it plays into the hands of LIV.

pedro wrote:New OWGR points system just out.

Minimum ranking points have been scrapped, except for the Majors AND The Players.

As the OWGR is the entry route for the Majors and with the new LIV anti trust lawsuit in mind, I think the OWGR could also end up being in trouble, by giving special status to the flagship event of a particular Tour. IMO it plays into the hands of LIV.

68.5 owgr points for the pga tour winner this week, while the euro tour winner gets 8!!!

So the LIV players who wanted to play the Fedex Cup lost out in court yesterday to the PGA Tour - and September 2023 is when the full LIV vs PGA tour trial date is set, which again isn't great for LIV golfers who aren't major exempt, as their OGWR will likely crater in that time.

The LIV lawyers let slip some interesting nuggets, in particular that money won in tournaments is "recouped against the LIV contracts". So maybe not quite the incentive to win the money eh...

Also the judge who has seen details of all the contracts for this case, said "These LIV contracts lock up these players in ways the PGA Tour never imagined. They are so restrictive."

Who'd have thought the government of Saudi Arabia weren't going to allow them to just have a jolly on their dime? I suspect for those that signed up, once this initial phase is over, some of those "restrictions" or obligations will kick in...and I suspect some of the dumber ones like a Talor Gooch probably don't even realise they were in the deal yet!

Still looks like Cameron Smith is going to join for the September event.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

The LIV lawyers let slip some interesting nuggets, in particular that  money won in tournaments is "recouped against the LIV contracts". So maybe not quite the incentive to win the money eh..

This makes me wonder whether Henrik's win in his first LIV event was staged. LIV is basically the golf equivalent of WWE wrestling so its quite probable.

Olly

The thing I keep thinking when more details come out about the Saudi league is how much control over their careers have those that signed up lost? They have traded a known path to success for potentially running their career at the beck and call of a Saudi prince.



And as you say the Saudi aren't just going to let them get up to whatever they want. There isn't the equivalent of the the PAC for the Saudi league. If you don't like how things are going the Saudis aren't going to listen to your sob story. Can you imagine the workload the 48 guys will have when a proper media platform is set up?

incontinentia wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

The LIV lawyers let slip some interesting nuggets, in particular that  money won in tournaments is "recouped against the LIV contracts". So maybe not quite the incentive to win the money eh..

This makes me wonder whether Henrik's win in his first LIV event was staged. LIV is basically the golf equivalent of WWE wrestling so its quite probable.

Would it even be possible to stage golf tournament outcome? What happens if he goes double, double on the back nine? Does everyone just happen to hit it into a bush?

McLaren wrote:Olly

The thing I keep thinking when more details come out about the Saudi league is how much control over their careers have those that signed up lost? They have traded a known path to success for potentially running their career at the beck and call of a Saudi prince.

And as you say the Saudi aren't just going to let them get up to whatever they want. There isn't the equivalent of the the PAC for the Saudi league. If you don't like how things are going the Saudis aren't going to listen to your sob story. Can you imagine the workload the 48 guys will have when a proper media platform is set up?

You only have to see what happened at the Saudi F1 event in Jeddah this year (with the attack on aramco at a nearby oil facility) where drivers/team principals wanted to call the event off for safety reasons, but despite being in unison and having meetings well into 2/3/4am in the evening, were basically forced/coerced into it by Saudi/F1 - and then the issue WWE had with some of their charter flights being held on the runway in Riyadh for hours on end because of a dispute with the Saudi Royal Family, to know that there will be some sort of similar event coming down the line for some of these golfers too.

You'd hope the majority are not stupid enough to realise this, hence the taking the money vs losing control conundrum...but do we think some like Bryson/Phil/Gooch truly know this...? I would be sceptical.

(I should also say, nothing wrong with folk taking the money knowing this - it makes sense for an awful lot of the older folk for 3/4 years of their contract!)

McLaren wrote:

incontinentia wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

The LIV lawyers let slip some interesting nuggets, in particular that  money won in tournaments is "recouped against the LIV contracts". So maybe not quite the incentive to win the money eh..

This makes me wonder whether Henrik's win in his first LIV event was staged. LIV is basically the golf equivalent of WWE wrestling so its quite probable.

Would it even be possible to stage golf tournament outcome? What happens if he goes double, double on the back nine? Does everyone just happen to hit it into a bush?

I imagine there could be some system of levers and pulleys to enable MBS to influence proceedings from his control tower.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

The LIV lawyers let slip some interesting nuggets, in particular that  money won in tournaments is "recouped against the LIV contracts". So maybe not quite the incentive to win the money eh..

This sounds too stupid to be true. Can only imagine a certain percentage is recouped so the incentive to win remains.

incontinentia wrote:

McLaren wrote:

incontinentia wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

The LIV lawyers let slip some interesting nuggets, in particular that  money won in tournaments is "recouped against the LIV contracts". So maybe not quite the incentive to win the money eh..

This makes me wonder whether Henrik's win in his first LIV event was staged. LIV is basically the golf equivalent of WWE wrestling so its quite probable.

Would it even be possible to stage golf tournament outcome? What happens if he goes double, double on the back nine? Does everyone just happen to hit it into a bush?

I imagine there could be some system of levers and pulleys to enable MBS to influence proceedings from his control tower.

Well, at least he’s used to decide who gets cut.

You know what. I would really like to hear kwini's take on this LIV golf stuff.

McLaren wrote:You know what. I would really like to hear kwini's take on this LIV golf stuff.

Kwini is a realist, he will know that the PGA Tour are just scared of losing their monopoly on world golf......

Shotrock wrote:When you play on the PGA tour you sign a contract. I call it an employer contract. Semantics.

The tour may be boring to you, but the TV revenue, gate and endorsement money is very strong. Perhaps you can show me the massively declining numbers from this 'boring' tour?

Of course the ET can ban players. May not be the best move, but I would be curious to see what those contracts currently say.

If you don't think the Green Jackets/USGA/PGA are not looking at the LIV as competition you are nuts. It's competition they want to move aside. The majors have nothing to do with the PGA? How do you think so many qualify for these events? World ranking points (among other ways) from ranking point rich PGA events.

They're not employees of the Tour.

It is boring, and even more so now that most of the interesting players have left; who really wants to tune in to see Tony Finau or JT Poston win each week?! These numbers will all decline as more of the box office names leave.

ET haven't got a leg to stand on, and they know it, precedent already set by all the big Euro players playing most of their golf away from the European (dp) Tour.

Majors want the best players, not just those loyal to the PGA Tour, fans will switch off in their droves from Majors if chunks of players are banned just because of what tour they play, or don't play, on.

ralphjohn

You are perfectly entitled to your opinion but I think you are overstating the strength of the LIV case against the PGA Tour.
Looking at the judgement handed down yesterday in the US Court, incidentally by the same Judge who will be dealing with the substantive case, there are a number of issues complained of by LIV members which are seemingly very similar to the contracts they have signed with LIV. The Judge has seen these contracts and made some pretty withering comments as regards the injunction case before her. Several of the public comments attributed to the complainants and/or the LIV Tour attorneys would be described as being "economical with the truth".

It looks like we will probably have to wait until 2025 for the main case to be decided. (the judge's diary is full for 2024).

More likely, I suspect, is some kind of deal, but I'm not holding my breath.

Well, the first shot went across the LIV bow. Not the PGA bow ... those LIV players who want to compete in this season's FedEx cup will not be able to.

I do think the strength of field for the Masters and PGA will be telling next year.

Richard Bland currently leading the DP World event in Northern Ireland. Bland has played in all three LIV events so far. Maybe that injunction regarding playing in the Scottish Open has stayed the DP World Tours' hand, or it covered more than that one event.

Edit:- Prince Drac (as known on here, Nosferatu on Twitter) has just posted that possible LIV defector Leishman is leading PGA Tour and Scott Vincent (another possible defector) leading on Asian Tour.

The full script/whatever it's called has been released from the hearing on Wednesday - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DaPkL4Glu-5vq8aSlBdb0XrQjRN6JMer/view

Further, TRO Plaintiffs’ contention that they will irreparably lose future sponsorship
opportunities and career status is undermined by TRO Plaintiffs’ evidence that LIV Golf offers a
refreshing new “extremely fan-friendly” business model that will lead to “an improved broadcast
output and entertainment experience” compared to the staid old golf world built by PGA TOUR.
See Khosla Decl., ECF No. 2-12 ¶¶ 11–13; see also Complaint, ECF No. 1 ¶¶ 49–57 (“Elite
Professional Golf Has Stagnated Under the PGA Tour’s Monopoly”). If LIV Golf is elite golf’s
future, what do TRO Plaintiffs care about the dust-collecting trophies of a bygone era?

Interesting read - and this paragraph does stand out to me at least. Seems the judge initially isn't looking favourably on LIV/LIV golfers case, wonder how they pivot for the full hearing in future years when presumably, they won't be arguing their tour is failing!

Apparently Tiger got mentioned in the Saudi legal papers for doing the PGATs dirty work. i.e when he had a go at the Saudi defectors during the Open.

https://twitter.com/JNucci23/status/1557752028721553415?s=20&t=_D07gmIydT3IaTMI5-mB3Q

Scheffler disses Cam Smith on the putting green.

Regardless of where this plays out in the courts, the ultimate verdict on the LIV/PGA coexistence will lie with the viewing (and paying) public.

Will LIV get a TV contract (or widely embraced streaming service) that allows them to broadcast live events to a large and interested audience?

Will there be a 'tipping point' where the better players are playing (and aspire to play) on the LIV tour?

Will the majors accommodate LIV events and find a solution for ranking points?

Will both tours reduce the minimum number of events needed to stay active in their respective tours?

One thing is pretty clear to me: The PGA knew they could never compete on a money basis, so they have been working on their legal arguments for months. And, while I like their legal defense chances, the viewing public will ultimate decide success for either (or both) tours.

I really wish Robo still posted here ... I suspect he has some great insights.

Shotrock wrote:I really wish Robo still posted here ... I suspect he has some great insights.

I follow him on Twitter Link HERE

A few LIV golfers playing the Asian Tour event - presumably to get OWGR points. Link HERE

I've found the Liv golf thing fascinating. More fascinating then most golf.

The court hearing was interesting. I've read it will likely have the knock on to the other hearing. But, you cant claim that the pga is a monopoly when you have agreed to sign up to another tour for massive fees.

I did see the better case is against the world rankings if it refuses to award points.

But, say Liv get the top 48 players. Is that it? Is it just a travelling 48. I'm interested to see how it evolves. I like the team idea.

I also can't see how the majors can not invite players from liv

If Cam Smith gets to #1 and goes to the Saudis, as expected, things are going to get a little tricky. It feels like there could be a shift in public opinion if the Saudis don't get more of what and they have the worlds best player. It seemed quite hard not to like Cam Smith based on his career so far, apparently it isn't that hard.

https://twitter.com/DJPie/status/1543644864755154944

This was a good thread on the OGWR and LIV - they currently don't meet many, if any of the OGWR requirements for world ranking points...and even if they do end up doing it, OGWR has a year "prove it" type period anyways. I don't see why the OGWR should suddenly tear up its rule book for LIV, other tours who've had to go through that process would be up in arms?

I don't really see the majors changing anything - at the moment they're all done via world rankings and past winners/top finishes etc... a lot of the LIV guys will qualify via that for a bit yet (Reed/Phil/DJ/Bryson/Brooks et al).

I also have less faith than Beninho in the LIV tournament and format "evolving" - the idea of teams on paper is good, but to date it's been executed horrendously in practice.

Cam Smith given 2 shot penalty for incorrect drop in yesterdays round. PGAT making their feelings known.

Olly

If Cam moving legitimizes the Saudi league in many players eyes the floodgates could open. OWGR points might be almost irrelevant at that point. Things would be ripped up and the pro golf world redesigned.

Cam Smith withdraws from BMW Championship citing hip discomfort. sounds pretty weak to me... do you reckon its in revenge for the 2 stroke penalty he got at the weekend, and as McLaren has suggested- was that penalty manufactured by PGAT officials in order to stop him winning the tournament?!?!
Conspiracy time on 606v2...

Given the PGAT's history of penalising players, a conspiracy is definitely possible.

McLaren wrote:Olly

If Cam moving legitimizes the Saudi league in many players eyes the floodgates could open. OWGR points might be almost irrelevant at that point. Things would be ripped up and the pro golf world redesigned.

Not entirely sure why Cam Smith would be the catalyst for legitimizing it...surely that was DJ moving to it back in the Spring? That seemed to get more of your Brooks/Bryson's interested...kind of think folks minds have been made up one way or another by now.

Unless LIV signs literally every top 50 players in the world, I really struggle to see the OGWR (well basically the majors who run it) changing much - basically all the players that matter to the majors (DJ/Brooks/Bryson/Phil, Cam when he goes et al) are already exempt into the majors via wins for a while yet.
It'll only start being an issue for them if a slew of huge names join LIV, who aren't qualified for the majors under the current system and thus their tournaments get harmed. At the moment, I don't think Augusta/USGA/The R&A are losing much sleep cos Talor Gooch/Ian Poulter/Jason Kokrak won't be playing their majors under the current system.

olly

If the #1 moves across (or at least a player on the cusp of #1) then it is no longer about has beens moving across it is the current elite.

If Greg can get 10 or so more players moving in the right direction in the top 50 signed up before the "winter break" then don't expect the PGAT to look like we are used to come the tournament of champions. If cam and a few others jump ship then the floodgates will open and the top 50 will be properly fractured. At that point what value does the OWGR even have?

And I think that is probably the strategy the Saudis will use. They know they need just enough top 50 players to break the system. When that happens they don't need to worry about any application to join the OWGR.

LIV latest: Woods is to hold a crisis meeting with other PGAT players at the BMW championship about how to deal with the LIV threat.

It’s about money. So who is Woods to tell players to reject multi million dollar offers?

I didnt think Tiger could go any higher in my estimation, but his refusal of the huge LIV payday while physically wrecked and in the deep winter of his career has been very heartening. I think even super realist would agree with this. Now he's helping to protect the integrity of the sport and leading the fightback against LIV, he deserves a lot of credit.

incontinentia wrote:LIV latest: Woods is to hold a crisis meeting with other PGAT players at the BMW championship about how to deal with the LIV threat.

Key points according to an interview and tweets from Alan Shipnuck:

- Not every player has been invited to the meeting, only a select few top players hand-picked by Tiger, highlighting the schism between top players and journeymen on the PGAT.
- One idea being floated is for PGA Tour players to boycott majors if LIV players are allowed to play, putting pressure on governing bodies to keep LIV players out. This would require big discipline and a united front from people who arent used to working together.
- Tiger appears to be acting as de facto Commissioner, and if a compromise is to be reached with LIV in future Monahan would have to go because he has refused to communicate with/vilified LIV up to now.

This is interesting. Basically it's 4 different organisations running the Majors, so good luck.

But where to draw the line? What if a Qatar backed Tour emerges, should you confront that as well? Or a Chinese?

IMO this is 95% about the PGAT desperately trying to keep their de-facto monopoly on golf and 5% about Saudi (despite it being a good excuse).

I do not question Tigers veneration for the PGAT, but he is not the future of the PGAT. Unless he has got some sort of mandate from the PGAT or the Major organisers to negotiate with potential defectors, why should players listen to him rather than taking the LIV money?