LIV golf

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Probably best for this to have its own thread...

Latest news is that 11 LIV players have sued the PGA tour. Here is a nice article on that https://golf.com/news/phil-mickelson-lawsuit-vs-pga-tour-revelations/?amp=1

Better stock up on popcorn, it looks like we will become privy to lots of juicy information which has been secret up to now.

I'm never wrong wrote:You also have to factor in their eligibility over time. Robopz tweeted about this HERE

I saw some parroting the Masters as a "win" for LIV (it wasn't a "win" for either tour, it's a major...but alas) - but even if we entertain that, I don't really see how it was, because nobody of their former major champions who have exemptions finished in the top 12 to get back next year. Even Koepka, if things carry on as seen, will have his final year of eligibility for the Masters from his 2019 major wins, expire after next years tournament.

Aww. Such a shame:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/golf/67088479

I'm not sure if I was as wealthy as Cam Smith I wouldn't care a jot about world ranking.
He has such an easy life why does he care about them? Richer than Croesus and plays about 10 tournaments a year.

Fair enough he's incredibly ugly, but world ranking points won't change that.

navyblueshorts wrote:Aww. Such a shame:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/golf/67088479

I cannot believe how stupid, even by LIV standards, the conversation they are having around not being awarded OGWR points is. Everyone and his dog who knows anything about the sport knew they wouldn't be granted them, because they don't even begin to conform to the rules that are in place. It's so dumb.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:Aww. Such a shame:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/golf/67088479

I cannot believe how stupid, even by LIV standards, the conversation they are having around not being awarded OGWR points is. Everyone and his dog who knows anything about the sport knew they wouldn't be granted them, because they don't even begin to conform to the rules that are in place. It's so dumb.

Yep...it would be like awarding Clubs UEFA co-efficient ranking points for domestic games and friendlies

I think the golf rankings are a bit of a mess anyway. I'd like to see it more like the tennis ones which seem a bit more representative of real time.

super_realist wrote:I think the golf rankings are a bit of a mess anyway. I'd like to see it more like the tennis ones which seem a bit more representative of real time.

I think there's issues with them yes. The assumption that because there are better players on the PGA tour, a win there is worth more than a win in Europe (or elsewhere). To an extent obviously that's true but the way the rankings interpret it means there is a perpetual self fulfilling prophecy going on. Putting aside the fact that top Europeans do gravitate to the PGATour (for the money) How come the much lower ranked European side punches so well above it's weight in Ryder Cups. I don't ever remember a Ryder Cup where the Europeans were collectively ranked higher than the Americans. Yes there's been times when the top 4-5 on each side are pretty even in terms of WR but when you get into the bottom half of the teams. the Americans always have that "apparent" strength in depth - only...it's not really is it? It's just that the bottom half of the American team, ranking wise, appear better on paper because they're playing on a more lucrative tour week in week out.

by the way does anyone disagree with Dawson's assertions that LIV is as near as damn it a closed shop and so not open to all pro golfers. Also the assertion that the format is too far removed from what other tours play week in week out and so you can really compare and dish out points on that basis

JAS wrote:

super_realist wrote:I think the golf rankings are a bit of a mess anyway. I'd like to see it more like the tennis ones which seem a bit more representative of real time.

I think there's issues with them yes. The assumption that because there are better players on the PGA tour, a win there is worth more than a win in Europe (or elsewhere). To an extent obviously that's true but the way the rankings interpret it means there is a perpetual self fulfilling prophecy going on. Putting aside the fact that top Europeans do gravitate to the PGATour (for the money) How come the much lower ranked European side punches so well above it's weight in Ryder Cups. I don't ever remember a Ryder Cup where the Europeans were collectively ranked higher than the Americans. Yes there's been times when the top 4-5 on each side are pretty even in terms of WR but when you get into the bottom half of the teams.  the Americans always have that "apparent" strength in depth - only...it's not really is it? It's just that the bottom half of the American team, ranking wise, appear better on paper because they're playing on a more lucrative tour week in week out.

Remember the rankings are mostly based on strokeplay, not matchplay. Americans usually have many more times the number of major winners too.
I think Europeans just play more matchplay. We have grown up playing it whereas Americans prefer strokeplay, and they usually do better in singles as well.

JAS wrote:by the way does anyone disagree with Dawson's assertions that LIV is as near as damn it a closed shop and so not open to all pro golfers. Also the assertion that the format is too far removed from what other tours play week in week out and so you can really compare and dish out points on that basis

Certainly a de facto closed shop, but we have some very small field events that carry ranking points so not entirely sure I agree 100% with Dawson.
I do think Liv could move to 72 holes and a bigger field of they wanted to make a case for it.

super_realist wrote:

JAS wrote:by the way does anyone disagree with Dawson's assertions that LIV is as near as damn it a closed shop and so not open to all pro golfers. Also the assertion that the format is too far removed from what other tours play week in week out and so you can really compare and dish out points on that basis

Certainly a de facto closed shop, but we have some very small field events that carry ranking points so not entirely sure I agree 100% with Dawson.
I do think Liv could move to 72 holes and a bigger field of they wanted to make a case for it.

Bit of a marketing bugger, that. They'd have to become LXXII - not sure that really works....!

Another problem with LIV is the team element. Players have admitted to lagging putts because they need a par for the team and do want to risk a bogey whereas, if they were playing individually, they would go for it and take the risk. That’s another reason given for not awarding OWRP. The whole thing is too manufactured.

LadyPutt wrote:Another problem with LIV is the team element. Players have admitted to lagging putts because they need a par for the team and do want to risk a bogey whereas, if they were playing individually, they would go for it and take the risk. That’s another reason given for not awarding OWRP. The whole thing is too manufactured.

The team element is beyond cringeworthy, not just the names but the whole expectation that any fan could have any affinity with any team.
Like Saudi Football, you can pump in as much money as you like, but I don't see it taking off in regards to spectators.

JAS wrote:

super_realist wrote:I think the golf rankings are a bit of a mess anyway. I'd like to see it more like the tennis ones which seem a bit more representative of real time.

I think there's issues with them yes. The assumption that because there are better players on the PGA tour, a win there is worth more than a win in Europe (or elsewhere). To an extent obviously that's true but the way the rankings interpret it means there is a perpetual self fulfilling prophecy going on. Putting aside the fact that top Europeans do gravitate to the PGATour (for the money) How come the much lower ranked European side punches so well above it's weight in Ryder Cups. I don't ever remember a Ryder Cup where the Europeans were collectively ranked higher than the Americans. Yes there's been times when the top 4-5 on each side are pretty even in terms of WR but when you get into the bottom half of the teams.  the Americans always have that "apparent" strength in depth - only...it's not really is it? It's just that the bottom half of the American team, ranking wise, appear better on paper because they're playing on a more lucrative tour week in week out.

Jas

The idea that the ET was undervalued in the OWGR system has been debunked. Strokes gained data shows the skills gap between players on the PGAT compared to the ET is actually greater than than the difference in OWGR points. The ET is actually subsidised rather than hard done by, even under new allocations.

McLaren wrote:

JAS wrote:

super_realist wrote:I think the golf rankings are a bit of a mess anyway. I'd like to see it more like the tennis ones which seem a bit more representative of real time.

I think there's issues with them yes. The assumption that because there are better players on the PGA tour, a win there is worth more than a win in Europe (or elsewhere). To an extent obviously that's true but the way the rankings interpret it means there is a perpetual self fulfilling prophecy going on. Putting aside the fact that top Europeans do gravitate to the PGATour (for the money) How come the much lower ranked European side punches so well above it's weight in Ryder Cups. I don't ever remember a Ryder Cup where the Europeans were collectively ranked higher than the Americans. Yes there's been times when the top 4-5 on each side are pretty even in terms of WR but when you get into the bottom half of the teams.  the Americans always have that "apparent" strength in depth - only...it's not really is it? It's just that the bottom half of the American team, ranking wise, appear better on paper because they're playing on a more lucrative tour week in week out.

Jas

The idea that the ET was undervalued in the OWGR system has been debunked. Strokes gained data shows the skills gap between players on the PGAT compared to the ET is actually greater than than the difference in OWGR points. The ET is actually subsidised rather than hard done by, even under new allocations.

Source, please? I wouldn't be surprised if the whole model was based on a flawed concept...

Navy

It was the basis for the owgr changes. Non PGAT points minimums were inflating points gained on tours other than the PGAT.

Following article is probably decent place to start.

https://golf.com/news/official-world-golf-ranking-just-changed-heres-why/?amp=1

Are strokes gained in America greater because it's a different style of golf on courses which are a bit more one dimensional and predominantly just drive and wedge courses?
Seems a bit more variety in European Tour stops (as well as worse weather and more variety of golf shot required)

All taken care of in strokes gained model.

McLaren wrote:Navy

It was the basis for the owgr changes. Non PGAT points minimums were inflating points gained on tours other than the PGAT.

Following article is probably decent place to start.

https://golf.com/news/official-world-golf-ranking-just-changed-heres-why/?amp=1

Cheers; appreciated. Will have a look. Just looking quickly at that article, the logic on which some of its based is simply flawed and makes assumptions that are hard to justify. Do you know if there's anywhere (I should probably look, but thought I'd ask first!) that gives the actual detail of the algorithm(s) used and the assumptions that're used re. the data etc?

McLaren wrote:All taken care of in strokes gained model.

And the actual model is detailed at....?

Owgr site, data golf and stuff written by Mark Broadie would probably be the best place to find answers to both questions.

Also if you want a more casual discussion there was an NLU podcast (s) that you discussed it.

McLaren wrote:Owgr site, data golf and stuff written by Mark Broadie would probably be the best place to find answers to both questions.

Also if you want a more casual discussion there was an NLU podcast (s) that you discussed it.

Ta, but I'm not going to go hunting for that - the issue doesn't bother me enough to warrant the effort. I was hoping you'd be able to list some links to make it easy for a lazy arse...

https://www.owgr.com/how-the-ranking-works

https://mygolfspy.com/news-opinion/what-is-strokes-gained/

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1765964#:~:text=Strokes%20gained%20is%20a%20simple,golfers%20on%20the%20PGA%20TOUR.

I see that Rory is trying to row back and line himself up for some pieces of silver somewhere down the line:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/golf/67870607

navyblueshorts wrote:I see that Rory is trying to row back and line himself up for some pieces of silver somewhere down the line:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/golf/67870607

Happy New Year to you Navy (and everyone else) I did wonder who was going to blink first :-p

Re Rory, I think that’s actually quite measured. Having aligned himself firmly with the PGAT and against LIV, can’t imagine how he felt when the announcement of negotiations came out.

Personally I think he lets himself get too involved in golf politics, possibly to the detriment of his own game. Kind of understandable to a point as whatever anyone might think of him he is a major figure in the sport.

He can see the ground shifting and is trying to position himself, what astute person wouldn’t do that? Nobody knows how much the ground will shift and where the dust will settle.

He's always got too involved in golf politics. He talks too much, goes off on a tangent and then gets involved in all sorts of conversations that he need not have done. Best to have stuck to letting his golf do the talking, there is no doubting his tremendous ability. Who would have thought when he won his fourth major in the PGA Championship in 2014, we would now be ten years down the line and he hasn't added to it. I am sure all the outside distractions have been a main cause.

If ever there had been a time to sit on the fence then this was it. Never wise to align yourself to one party, especially when you are oblivious to what they are up to behind your back, as so clearly demonstrated in this case.

Tend to agree with you both. He should have kept shtum.

I also saw that Viktor 'Dumb as Rocks' Hovland went off on one recently about the Tour organisation etc (see here). What a pillock. "We are the Tour" ? Seriously? All you bloody do is turn up at events (no doubt, for an appearance fee), organised by everyone else, by people who're actual businessmen/women, for prize money you didn't guarantee etc etc. And he thinks every decision made by them is also completely in their own self-interest? Tell you what, you self-centred nobody, why don't you organise it all? No? Thought not...

Viktor? In future, STFU. Better to have everyone think you're an idiot, than open your mouth and confirm it beyond all doubt.

navyblueshorts wrote:Tend to agree with you both. He should have kept shtum.

I also saw that Viktor 'Dumb as Rocks' Hovland went off on one recently about the Tour organisation etc (see here). What a pillock. "We are the Tour" ? Seriously? All you bloody do is turn up at events (no doubt, for an appearance fee), organised by everyone else, by people who're actual businessmen/women, for prize money you didn't guarantee etc etc. And he thinks every decision made by them is also completely in their own self-interest? Tell you what, you self-centred nobody, why don't you organise it all? No? Thought not...

Viktor? In future, STFU. Better to have everyone think you're an idiot, than open your mouth and confirm it beyond all doubt.

Starting to criticise the tour (biting the hand that feeds) is a sure sign that he's looking at a different hand? no?

Christ he's a talented guy but he's only been around for 5 minutes FFS

A very big backtrack by McIlroy with his recent comments. I think Rahm moving to LIV was huge, he is in my opinion the best player in the world and one of the few players I would go and pay to watch. Whatever people's opinion of LIV, they have some really big players now. Rahm and Koepka are the favourites to win most majors these days and Koepka proved that even leaving the PGA tour he still won a major this year and very nearly won the Masters too only for a brilliant final round by Rahm.

The sooner the PGA monopoly disappears the better, I find it staggering that 3 out of 4 majors happen in America every year (and the supposed 5th major being the Players Championship in Sawgrass too). You look at another individual sport like Tennis and you have the four slams split between Australia, France, England and USA. Even in their next biggest events the Masters series, they are split between countries right across Europe, USA, Canada and China. The top players in the world play year in year out across the continents including South America and Asia. In Golf, you basically have the PGA tour dominating in the US, about 3 events on European Tour that anyone cares about and the vast majority of European tour events of note are in the Middle East.

In my opinion, if golf wants to be a truly global sport, people across the world need to be able to see the worlds top players in action and I really think the major events should be hosted across the world as is the case with tennis but I get that historically this has never been the case but that doesnt mean it should always be. I remember in the 80s and 90s you would see the best players in the world regularly playing on European tour and it was an amazing spectacle. Those days are long gone, maybe the situation with LIV and the PGA losing clout we might end up seeing more of the best players coming to Europe in the years ahead. I say this very much as a neutral who rarely watches golf in recent years but enjoys to play.

slashermcguirk wrote:A very big backtrack by McIlroy with his recent comments. I think Rahm moving to LIV was huge, he is in my opinion the best player in the world and one of the few players I would go and pay to watch. Whatever people's opinion of LIV, they have some really big players now. Rahm and Koepka are the favourites to win most majors these days and Koepka proved that even leaving the PGA tour he still won a major this year and very nearly won the Masters too only for a brilliant final round by Rahm.

The sooner the PGA monopoly disappears the better, I find it staggering that 3 out of 4 majors happen in America every year (and the supposed 5th major being the Players Championship in Sawgrass too). You look at another individual sport like Tennis and you have the four slams split between Australia, France, England and USA. Even in their next biggest events the Masters series, they are split between countries right across Europe, USA, Canada and China. The top players in the world play year in year out across the continents including South America and Asia. In Golf, you basically have the PGA tour dominating in the US, about 3 events on European Tour that anyone cares about and the vast majority of European tour events of note are in the Middle East.

In my opinion, if golf wants to be a truly global sport, people across the world need to be able to see the worlds top players in action and I really think the major events should be hosted across the world as is the case with tennis but I get that historically this has never been the case but that doesnt mean it should always be. I remember in the 80s and 90s you would see the best players in the world regularly playing on European tour and it was an amazing spectacle. Those days are long gone, maybe the situation with LIV and the PGA losing clout we might end up seeing more of the best players coming to Europe in the years ahead. I say this very much as a neutral who rarely watches golf in recent years but enjoys to play.

Good post. Tend to agree with all of this. However, I do have a major problem w/ where the LIV money is coming from, the actual reasons for the Saudi investment (grow the game, my backside) in it and the confirmation of morals best consigned to a sewer from too many of the top pros.

I'll be focusing on playing and only rarely watching from now on. Ryder Cup, Masters, Open, but that's more or less it probably. TBH, 99% of the time, I think it's a poor TV product - putt, putt, drive (that cameras can't follow), putt, putt, advert, putt, putt, inane interview w/ just finished player, advert, putt, putt, Woods blowing his nose, advert, putt, putt, banal 'expert' talking nonsense in studio, advert, putt etc etc...

Re the whole Rory stance and how it has changed, this is quite informative in between the banter. All round it's a pretty good listen, quite amusing in places...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeYHPvwf9bY

JAS wrote:Re the whole Rory stance and how it has changed, this is quite informative in between the banter. All round it's a pretty good listen, quite amusing in places...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeYHPvwf9bY

That video confirms what me and Super thought about McIlroy getting Lowry picked for the Ryder Cup. He is his closest golfing mate, they play practice rounds together, they now live close together in Florida and their families mix.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/golf/2024/0109/1425665-mcilroy-sees-world-tour-as-dream-scenario-for-golf/

So basically McIlroy now moving towards exactly what I posted previously and what Norman was pushing for since 90s and a more global circuit with the top players playing all over the world. The mad thing is LIV could end up being what leads to golf having more of the biggest tournaments in other countries. I think it would make it far more interesting than pretty much all the biggest tournaments in the USA year in year out. So many great courses out there like Royal Melbourne that never see the best players

Awwww. Diddums. There, there, John. Just bathe in all those pieces of silver and STFU, why don't you?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/golf/68479599

navyblueshorts wrote:Awwww. Diddums. There, there, John. Just bathe in all those pieces of silver and STFU, why don't you?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/golf/68479599

LIV golfers - simultaneously call the OWGR redundant and pointless, yet want to be included every time it's brought up. Idiots.

Majors will invite the ones they want anyways (as has been seen by Niemann). And the Open/US Open are what they say on the tin...go to sectional qualifying and if you're as good as you think you are, you should have no issue qualifying ahead of Bob Smith from the local club and some DPWT regulars