If Manny and Floyd retired tomorrow!!

Who would rank higher in the alltime stakes....

Floyd top 10 already for me.....but i'm willing to hear counter arguments..

Pacquiao at 23
Mayweather at 24

Also have Manny top 20/30....

Flloyd is an ATG for me, and I would place him top 10, probably about 20 places above Manny - just my opinion of course

Probably Manny. Wins over Morales, Barrera, Marquez and Cotto. If Floyd retired tomorrow he would be a 'what if' guy.

Want more than that Ghosty..

Now d4 has gone we can have a civilised debate..

Floyd is unbeaten, ruled for ten years, has the higher talent threshold and I believe Marques and Morales put Manny behind him...

All opinions to the contrary welcome..

I agree, Manny has to beat Floyd to be ranked near him IMO and until Manny and Floyd fight (if they do) that aint gonna happen no matter who he beats.

Even if he fights a few more of his mates, Mosely etc

Both are just about top 20 for me as it stands. If they do finally fight each other before either or both are in a bath chair, then the winner would get a top 10 ranking from me. If they don't fight, it would serve a lot of people right if they were bracketed together in perpetuity; push me on the point then I might have Pacquiao one spot ahead for the sheer range of his golden spell, but it's a bit of a toss-up.

What if......

DelaHoya at 154, unbeaten Hatton, Mosley, Marquez etc.......4 at the time p4p top 10ers...

What if..don't think so.

Being unbeaten doesn't mean much when you consider Marciano, Calzaghe, Ottke and Marsh are all unbeaten too

Pacquiao for me has beaten the better fighters in Morales, Barrera, Marquez and Cotto compared to Hatton, Corrales, De La Hoya and Castillo

Alexis Arguello whom I have just above the pair is the marker I use for them, neither can claim to have his dominance over 3 weights nor do they hold a series of wins that compare

I would have Pacman higher personally, probably late teens with Floyd early twenties.

Pacman has had a few losses yes but I think he has fought the better fighters.

On talent alone Floyd would probably be around my top 5 but I just think there are too few names there.

Would look better if he had got to Cotto before Margarito did rather than retiring, Pacquiao at 147, Tszyu, Mosley earlier etc.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:What if......

DelaHoya at 154, unbeaten Hatton, Mosley, Marquez etc.......4 at the time p4p top 10ers...

What if..don't think so.

Oscar was too old and had been poor for a while - would also probably struggle for a top 30-40 slot for me.
Hatton was fighting above his best weight, unbeaten yes but a weight too far.
Mosley was done too late.
Marquez - two weights too far.

Marciano etc...didn't fight Floyd's level of competition and weren't at the top for over ten years....

4 top 10 current p4pers too...more than anyone since Leonard..

It's all well and good saying Hatton was out of his ideal weight, but at the time a few people fancied him as a genuine contender, but alas it was not to be, but he he didnt put up a bad fist of it - better effort than Mosely

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Marciano etc...didn't fight Floyd's level of competition and weren't at the top for over ten years....

4 top 10 current p4pers too...more than anyone since Leonard..

I wouldn't have Marciano anywhere near Floyd P4P.

I don't think De La Hoya was top ten at the time of the Mayweather fight, may be wrong but he's nowhere to be seen in the rankings a month or so later

Saying he beat 4 p4p lbers sounds impressive but one of them was an ageing Mosley and another was Marquez well out of his weight class

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Marciano etc...didn't fight Floyd's level of competition and weren't at the top for over ten years....

4 top 10 current p4pers too...more than anyone since Leonard..

You could argue that a win over Moore at heavyweight means just as much as a win over Marquez at Welterweight

Imperial Ghosty wrote:I don't think De La Hoya was top ten at the time of the Mayweather fight, may be wrong but he's nowhere to be seen in the rankings a month or so later

Saying he beat 4 p4p lbers sounds impressive but one of them was an ageing Mosley and another was Marquez well out of his weight class

I believe Corrales and Castillo was? Not sure about De La Hoya read somewhere he was 9 but that was off another forum.

Oscar was too old....

A good lawyer could rebutt by stating the same claim to 90% of Manny's best victories..

I wouldnt have PBF near top 10 at the moment, especially if the 4 wins you mentioned are his best wins? You could go through must ppls records and scrutinise them so I wont do that right now. But a mix of inactivity and a lack of elite opposition goes against Flyod. If we're going on talent alone then he's right up there.

Gun to head i'd have Manny slightly ahead of him but theres not much in it and a head to head would be the only real way of splitting them for me. If Manny fights like he did against Mosley then Flyods in for an easy night.

I used the 4 wins as examples of his elite company..not necessary his best.

Question for you Truss, where do rank Arguello with relation to Pacquiao and Mayweather, quick breakdown of Arguellos best wins

Arguello- Mancini, Watt, Ramirez, Edwards, Navarette, Castillo, Chacon, Limon, Escalera, Olivares and Legra

May not be many pound for pound fighters but his record at super featherweight is superb and better than anything Pacquiao or Mayweather achieved

I'd say Manny is slightly ahead due to the range of opponents, quality of opponents and a career defining win in beating Barrera 1st time out. Say what you like about that one, but Barrera was on a hot streak of results having recently beaten Morales and Hamed.

Both truly terrific fighters whose names get dragged through the dirt far more than they should by a lot of people, and both comfortably make it into my top 20 ATG's.

Is this the Barrera that lost twice to Junior Jones..

Or another one..

Is it the Marquez who lost to Norwood and John?

So i'm guessing Marcianos your no.1 heavy Truss?

joe louis is No 1 at heavy

Be sensible Paperbag......

I didn't bring Marciano up..I was rebutting a point about Marciano and Floyd..

Learn to read and stop being petulant.

Mayweather top 10? I'm a fan truss but that's being generous. His best wins have been corallles, castillo, oscar and hatton. Good but not atg top 10 stuff.

Pacquiao has morales, Marquez, Barrera, cotto as his best wins, plus hatton at 140.

It's close, but although I'd rate floyd the better fighter I'd say manny has the better record and has achieved slightly more, and on that basis I'd have him ahead.

Was just pointing out how simple your reasoning was. Its easy to scrutinise anyones record. You cant say fighter a is better than b because c beat b. Doesn't work like that and you know it. I think you throw out these little examples when you're too lazy to write anything else.

You're better than that big man!

I was rebutting a point.......

Greater longevity than Rocky, better opponents beaten than Rocky..

If that makes you think I regard Rocky as no 1..

then god help you..

So his unbeaten record is largely irrelevant then Truss

No Rockys the only heavy where I could use your reasoning to prove he's no.1

Ali - Didnt he lose to Berbick and Spinks?
Louis - Scmeling? Ah sure Rocky beat him too so that rules him out.

And so on... You cant belittle Pacquaio's win against Barrera because someone else beat him.

Pacquiao has the better record as it stands.

I think Mayweather is/was the better fighter.

Depends what people value more in terms of who ranks above who.

All opinions welcome..

Paccy also has more losses and has been soundly outboxed in Marquez 1..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:All opinions welcome..

Paccy also has more losses and has been soundly outboxed in Marquez 1..

Could be argued that PBF hasn't fought anyone as good as the Marquez that Pacman fought? A fat slow Marquez 2-3 weights outta his depth is a different matter. Flyod wins it on talent, Manny on legacy up to now and thats even discounting pointless wins like Oscar, Marg and Clottey.

Got a feeling that beating DelaHoya at 154 is much more revered than any Marquez 10-1-1- loss..

Think Oscar will be more fondly remembered than juan Marquez....

Could also be argued that using asomeone your Man "lost" to as a reason to make him better than an other guy is scraping the barrel..

Oscar at the time of the Floyd fight was at the end of his career and probably not even the best 154lber

Marquez was top 5 p4p when he fought Pac

Name only means so much, otherwise Leon Spinks win over Ali would be better than most

I'll remember Marquez more fondly but I think you're right and I'll be in the minority.

Barrera, Morales, Marquez and Cotto rank ahead of Mayweathers best wins for me. Not a lot in it and I think by the end of their careers PBF will be ranked higher. Pacs last few opponents have been disappointing.

Mayweathers multiple retirements do him no good. Only fought 4 times in 4 years. He could have bulked up (his legacy) and sealed it in that time.. 4 times in 4 years, such a shame for such a quality fighter.

Pacquiao has the slightly better resume because of the era of wins over JMM, Morales, Barrera to go with excellent achievements at higher weights i.e. Hatton and Cotto were both excellent wins. I think that during the period where Pacquiao fought these Mexican greats was one in which he pushed himself to take highly risky fights in a way that Floyd rarely has. However since then his fights have mostly had an asterisk against them i.e. catch weight, Floyd leftover, old opponent. This has certainly taken off some of the lustre. I'm always left with the impression that Floyd does not have the resume that his talent could allow. Fair enough he's all about risk/reward and making money - but there's got to be a bit more risk-taking warrior spirit in there. For me Manny showed that in the early part of his rise to greatness (not so now - I've lost a great deal of respect for him due to his opponent choices and stipulations). Floyd has the greater talent, but hasn't taken the necessary risks and hard fights to be in the upper echelons of the ATG lists. Both would be around 20-30 on my list - depends whether you rate on perception of talent or purely on record (even then their records are reasonably close). A defining fight between the two of them would do wonders for the winner's ATG status.

Go away Junky...

i've already used the argument that Floyd is the only guy since Leonard with 4 current p4p guys on his record...

Well De La Hoya was p4p at the time of the Mayweather was he?

Hatton, Cotto, Morales, Barrera and Marquez were though which makes it 5 for Pacquiao

He lost to Marquez......10-1-1

Mayweather lost to Castillo first time round on my card but my opinion doesn't matter officially

BS......Not a single publication gave Manny more than two rounds against Marquez..

No comparison whatsoever...

Are you sure about that Truss because it sounds like a bare faced lie to me

The comparison is clear, Mayweather got the nod over Castillo when he shouldn't have while Pacquiao got a draw when he could have lost

You have Manny beating Marquez?????

Mayweather is unbeaten we don't know his limitations.....

Paccy is beaten we know his...

I had Marquez winning the fight 113-112 but what you've made up is that no one gave Pacquiao more than 2 rounds when the HBO team all had him winning the fight, Lederman scored it 115-110 to Pacquiao I believe.

Mayweather is officially unbeaten just like officially Pacquiao has yet to lose to Marquez

Pacquiao, has beat the better and in better style imo, if they fight then we'll see once and for all, being unbeaten means little. Being a great fighter which they both are does mean something, but Manny's the better at this point imo and would win if they fought.