If Manny and Floyd retired tomorrow!!

First topic message reminder :

Who would rank higher in the alltime stakes....

Floyd top 10 already for me.....but i'm willing to hear counter arguments..

for me, mayweather probably slightly higher. Think pac has the better resume of fighting top fighters in their primes, but then he didn't win them all. Mayweather, castillo 1 (with injury excuses etc) aside, has barely been in a close fight.

It is very close between the two and I see like Manos does, Mayweather for me is up there in elite company alongside Robinson, Leonard, Pep, Hearns, Charles and Tunney for pure boxing ability, his ability to make some very good boxers look so ordinary is a gift.

Pacquiao on the other hand is what you would call a more exciting thrilling fighter to watch in the same way of Duran, Chavez, Chacon, Hagler, Jones and the like which appeals more to the casual fan, would say he has a slightly better record but not much in it.

Mayweather will be favoured by the fans of style and ability
Pacquiao will be favoured by the fans of excitement and knockouts

Scottrf wrote:Probably Manny. Wins over Morales, Barrera, Marquez and Cotto. If Floyd retired tomorrow he would be a 'what if' guy.

I'd probably agree. Although Floyd's career over the last 2 yearshas improved rapidly with 2 wins over the 3rd best ww in the world (if he beats Ortiz).

Boxtthis wrote:Pacquiao has the slightly better resume because of the era of wins over JMM, Morales, Barrera to go with excellent achievements at higher weights i.e. Hatton and Cotto were both excellent wins. I think that during the period where Pacquiao fought these Mexican greats was one in which he pushed himself to take highly risky fights in a way that Floyd rarely has. However since then his fights have mostly had an asterisk against them i.e. catch weight, Floyd leftover, old opponent. This has certainly taken off some of the lustre. I'm always left with the impression that Floyd does not have the resume that his talent could allow. Fair enough he's all about risk/reward and making money - but there's got to be a bit more risk-taking warrior spirit in there. For me Manny showed that in the early part of his rise to greatness (not so now - I've lost a great deal of respect for him due to his opponent choices and stipulations). Floyd has the greater talent, but hasn't taken the necessary risks and hard fights to be in the upper echelons of the ATG lists. Both would be around 20-30 on my list - depends whether you rate on perception of talent or purely on record (even then their records are reasonably close). A defining fight between the two of them would do wonders for the winner's ATG status.

That's pretty much how I see it. I'll also add though that Mayweather is in contention for being the best of all time in one weight class which is something Manny does not have. Mayweather for me was really special at Super Featherweight and I can only see Arguello being above him there whereas Manny for all his weight jumping I don't think will be top 5 in many of the divisions he's been in.

Some interesting opinions.....Sometimes wonder if Floydy wasn't American and cocky he'd be more highly thought of...

People seem reluctant to do anything but knock greats like Oscar, Hoppo, Holy, Jones jr and this guy on here..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Some interesting opinions.....Sometimes wonder if Floydy wasn't American and cocky he'd be more highly thought of...

People seem reluctant to do anything but knock greats like Oscar, Hoppo, Holy, Jones jr and this guy on here..

Nah, nobody knocks his talent, myself included and i love Americans with experience of going there, like many others, America is bashed in other walks of life unfairly, but Mayweather's vile rants towards MP, other fighters are the sort of thing that make him hated. Not his nationality

Evening Truss, wish I'd got in on this a bit earlier.

Mayweather certainly the more talented fighter in my eyes, and would win if they were to ever meet. However, whichever way I look at it, I have to have Pacquiao higher in terms of accomplishments, which counts for more than pure ability does. I think Mayweather has, to a certain extent, wasted some of his career over the last few years, whereas Pacquiao has consistently taken risks and tested himself more regularly. I'd say that his first win over Barrera is better than anything on Mayweather's resume, and the Cotto win is comparable to the best names of Mayweather's ledger, too.

While I don't put nearly as much stock in the eight 'world titles' as some do, it's still an incredible feat that of the eight 'classic' weight divisions, Pacquiao has won belts in half of them, and he's alone in doing so. In particular, his March 2008-November 2009 form (five fights in four different weights, consistently moving up and down) of Marquez, Diaz, De la Hoya, Hatton and Cotto really blows any other run by Mayweather out of the water.

Pacquiao somewhere around thirty for me, Mayweather a couple of places behind.

Quite surprised by that Chris, I'd have them only a couple of places apart (and in the same order as you) but more like 18-20. Do you think you might change your views in the years following their retirement? Providing nothing disastrous happens for either in the meantime, of course, or is your 30ish rank something that you can see yourself sticking with if they were not to fight each other.

How can these guys be 30 and further from the top......

come on...

Fists of Fury wrote:Quite surprised by that Chris, I'd have them only a couple of places apart (and in the same order as you) but more like 18-20. Do you think you might change your views in the years following their retirement? Providing nothing disastrous happens for either in the meantime, of course, or is your 30ish rank something that you can see yourself sticking with if they were not to fight each other.

Obviously, it becomes easier to properly evaluate a fighter once they've hung them up, so a few years down the line I might change my view slightly. Don't get me wrong; if the fight between them happens, whoever wins it will rocket right up in to my top twenty. But it's such a massive hole on both of their CVs if it doesn't, the type of hole that most of the fighters I have ahead of them don't have. Neither have unified a division, either, and until they fight I can't conclusively say which of them is the best of the era, so no higher than around the thirty mark for me. But that's just how I see it.

Love to see who chris has between 15 and 30 fisty....

Manny ranks higher for me and easily too.


Accomplishments count for more than ability, and ultimately if they had met when Manny was riding the crest of a wave directly post Hatton(who very sensibly called time on his boxing career today,) then Manny would have annihilated him imo, and team Mayweather knew it imo. Not only is he protecting his '0,' but protecting a china chin. Manny has the better resume and wants to take on the best. Mayweather wouldn't go near Cotto and Margarito, and waesled the Pacman fight. I've only been following Mayweather since Hatton too, and for me no comparison, Manny ranks way higher. It seems to me Mayweather fears certain fighters and that's a stain on his resume imo.

China chin? Oh dear.

Following him all the way since Hatton? Massive fan then.

Yeah it'd be interesting Truss, I'm not sure I could name 30 that deserve to be ahead of them, but I suppose the point of this is that each person has their own view, as there is nothing set in stone.

For whoever referred to FMJ as china chin, I refer you to round 2 of the Mosley fight.

I would say Mayweather has a pretty good chin, i can't remember the last time he was tagged like Mosley did, he was hurt, but well in control, Mosley punched himself out in that round.

Mayweather puts a spanner in the works of one of the biggest grossing fights in boxing history..


If they had met directly post Hatton, then we wouldn't be having this debate imo. Just my opinion. No offense..

Herman Frotchlinger wrote:Mayweather puts a spanner in the works of one of the biggest grossing fights in boxing history..


If they had met directly post Hatton, then we wouldn't be having this debate imo. Just my opinion. No offense..

I agree, wasn't impressed with Manny last time out but i don't think it was all his fault, looking forward to seeing Mayweather fight Ortiz and then we have Pacquiao against Marquez, think we'll know a bit more on the potential outcome of a matchup between the two after that.

I also happen to think that Manny at that time beats Floyd, however that's no reason to put Floyd down. He proved his chin against Moseley, would have knocked out an ox, that shot.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Love to see who chris has between 15 and 30 fisty....

I'll give a few examples of men who sit between fifteen and thirty in my eyes, and who are superior to both Mayweather and Pacquiao in terms of legacy and achievements as it stands right now.

Barney Ross (c. fifteenth / sixteenth). Eighty-odd fights and only four defeats, in an era where that classic crop between 135 lb and 147 lb were meeting with incredible regularity. Number one Light-Welterweight of them all in my eyes, borderline top ten Welterweight, won the Lightweight title, too. Had the edge of McLarnin, Canzoneri and plenty of other greats.

Sandy Saddler (c. nineteenth / twentieth). Easily a top two Featherweight; going 3-1 against an undisputed legend like Pep speaks for itself. Virtually unbeatable on the big occasion - was still champion at 126 lb when he was forced to retire, added the Super-Featherweight title, beat the likes of Elorde, scored over one hundred knockouts.

Julio Cesar Chavez (c. twentieth). Top three all-time at 130 lb (along with Mayweather and Arguello), top three of all time at 140 lb (along with Ross, Canzoneri / Pryor). In between completed a WBA / WBC double at Lightweight, absolutely belting the living daylights out of Rosario, an absolute beast at the weight. Wins over Taylor, Lockridge, R. Mayweather, La Porte, Camacho, Haugen, Randall (albeit controversially), Castillo, Ramirez etc speaks for itself.

Could go on, but off to bed now.

Massive fan then.



Ambivalent mate. Don't give him much thought in truth.


Just feel he needs to prove he's as good as he and his fans think he is. I mean people were still asking questions of Hopkins until Pavlik. Now he's getting in all-time top thirty lists.

On what grounds do you assume my belief is not objective? Why do you believe I am motivated by hate on this? I don't recall saying anythin personal about Floyd. Ever.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Some interesting opinions.....Sometimes wonder if Floydy wasn't American and cocky he'd be more highly thought of...

People seem reluctant to do anything but knock greats like Oscar, Hoppo, Holy, Jones jr and this guy on here..

What a pile of poo.

Most people would rate Louis / Ali as the best two heavyweights, where were they from? Ali was never considered cocky was he?

Robinson is widely regarded as the best boxer ever, where is he from?

Could it possibly be that some of the guys you have mentioned are great boxers but over-rated by some?

Oscar in his day was a great boxer to watch and one of my favourites growing up but I would say he is over-rated. Hopkins I rate highly but find his style of boxing very hard on the eye. Holyfield is a great who went on to acomplish great things. RJJ had amazing talent but also has as many questions over who he didn't fight as who he did.

Id probably have Manny just above FMJ and i mean just. They have both fought good opponents. Im only putting him above due to higher fight count.

Higher fight count???

Lost more fights......

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Don't comment on my articles if you're going to be rude..That's all you are doing typing s**t on all of them....Not interested in the opinions of d****ds..

Robinson isn''t from the modern era...

Jog on...

Excuse me precious.

You made comments I debated them, you said we all hate American boxers, I showed you that wasn't the case, with examples to back up my opinion.

I'm interested in debate and enjoy your comments, I rarely agree with them which is why I find them so interesting. I guess some people are more open to others opinions.

Now you stated that we don't rate the boxers you mentioned because they are American, I thought that was a load of rubbish so said so and gave my reasons why. Don't see where I have been rude and as for your abuse back, I can handle that, after all it is often said that the abuse we project onto others is the deep feelings we have for ourselves.

Where is this hostility coming from....

Life is too short....My advice.. if you can't make an argument more calmly..don't make one at all...

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Where is this hostility coming from....

Life is too short....My advice.. if you can't make an argument more calmly..don't make one at all...

I am fully calm and zen like, regarding the hostility I would say it came from you. I am a big enough man though and can empathise enough to know that sometimes text can be taken in the wrong way.

As I mentioned I find you opinions fascinating and your articles worthy of debate, rarely do I agree with them and that is why I tend to comment.

At no point have I ever aimed any abuse at you personally and I wouldn't do so, if you feel I have feel free to message me and I will explain the context of my comments.

He may have lost more but Manny has fought 17 more fights than FMJ.

As i said i have him ahead... Just.

Only my opinion.

Mayweather above Mannny.

Okay everything is fine.....

Think that Floyd's talent, his unbeaten record and longevity all play for him......

Hatton was unbeaten, DelaHoya was bigger at 154 and still dangerous.....

and I just think he belongs higher...

Herman Frotchlinger wrote:Mayweather puts a spanner in the works of one of the biggest grossing fights in boxing history..


If they had met directly post Hatton, then we wouldn't be having this debate imo. Just my opinion. No offense..

No Floyd Mayweather didn't...Floyd Mayweather agreed to ALL THE DEMANDS team Pacquiao made, signed the contract Pacquiao ducked the fight and walked away.

Floyd Mayweather beats him at any stage of Pacquiao's career...Looks good fighting Floyd Mayweather leftovers.

Also Barrera was owned twice by Jones...Corrales a much better win undefeated and Floyd Mayweather was the underdog.

Cant believe some people still get fooled by Bob Arum's bullsh!t, he knows once Mayweather and Pacquiao meet it is the end for his cash cow.

Manny was made for a Starling type fighter than can counter with quality shots and deflect his blows...

Don't think Manny is that skilled being a southpaw helps him....

He's like Chavez in a way..good boxer, very durable and can fight all night..

Floyd wins for me...Manny would have his moments early though..

It's a different question, and I would give a different answer, PBF, if asked which of the two fighters I think would win against each other, rather than which of the two I would currently place above each other in a historical context.

I've always thought that in a head-to-head, Manny is made for Floyd, assuming both to be somewhere near their best. However, if they don't fight while they're around their prime, that will never have been proved, and I regard Manny's CV as very slightly superior to Floyd's as things stand.

You don't take into account Marquez and morales then Captain???

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Manny was made for a Starling type fighter than can counter with quality shots and deflect his blows...

Don't think Manny is that skilled being a southpaw helps him....

He's like Chavez in a way..good boxer, very durable and can fight all night..

Floyd wins for me...Manny would have his moments early though..

For once I agree with you!!

Manny would get frustrated and taken out of his gameplan. For me the only way Manny wins this fight is if Floyds reflexes have gone.

Otherwise as a fan of Manny (and Floyd for his ability, just prefer Manny of the two) this would be painful to watch and I think Manny struggles to win a round.

Hatton won rounds early because Mayweather likes to find it what he is in with....

Starling is the more painful night for Manny (should he be motivated, which a la Honey, Breland 1 I'm sure he would be)...

I take them into account, but believe that in the round, Manny's ambition has been more in proportion with his talent than Floyd's. I think, strangely enough, that we have not seen the best of Floyd, and perhaps, we never will. You have suggested that we do not know what his limitations are, and I think that this is very true, largely because, especially in the latter stages of his career, he has chosen not to exert himself sufficiently to test them. Up to and including 135, Floyd's CV is much better. Since then, the comparison entirely favours Manny, the more so since he is operating so far above his original weight classes.

Manny seems to be feeding on too many of Floyd's stiffs...

I can't accept all these catchweight wins....I think it's cheating.

Sure Cotto is a good name but goalpost changing sullies the victories somewhat for me..

A lot of shot opponents on Manny's cv..

Great for sure but being outboxed by Marquez is something I'll always hold against him..

opinion are opinions..

captain carrantuohil wrote:I take them into account, but believe that in the round, Manny's ambition has been more in proportion with his talent than Floyd's. I think, strangely enough, that we have not seen the best of Floyd, and perhaps, we never will. You have suggested that we do not know what his limitations are, and I think that this is very true, largely because, especially in the latter stages of his career, he has chosen not to exert himself sufficiently to test them. Up to and including 135, Floyd's CV is much better. Since then, the comparison entirely favours Manny, the more so since he is operating so far above his original weight classes.

I probably would have said the opposite to be honest. 135 and below Pacquiao holds wins over the big 3 Mexicans and is 5-1-1 against MAB, Morales and Marquez. This trumps Mayweather for me.

Above 135 Pacquiao has been more active but far more selective in his choices. You could say hes naturaly not as big as Floyd which makes them better but Mayweather took on the fresher and more rated versions of Hatton, Mosely and De la Hoya (and now Ortiz) compared to Pacquiaos more scavenging tactics where many of wins come with some kind of asterix. Other than perhaps Cotto, I dont think Pacquaio has much on Mayweather at 140 and above.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Go away Junky...

i've already used the argument that Floyd is the only guy since Leonard with 4 current p4p guys on his record...

You're argument is rubbish though.

Oscar was nowhere near top 10 p4p when he beat Floyd.

Here are the 154lb rankings for the 00s -

http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_Ring_Magazine%27s_Annual_Ratings:_Junior_Middleweight--2000s

Oscar is 7th in 2006 and 3rd in 2007 (the year he fought Floyd).

Here are the p4p rankings for the 00s -

http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_Ring_Magazine%27s_Annual_Ratings:_Pound_For_Pound--2000s

Oscar exits the top 10 after losing to Hopkins in 04 and doesn't re-enter them again.

It was a good win against Oscar, moving up against a decent opponent, but don't make him out to be a p4p calibre opponent when he wasn't.

My argument is my argument......I think yours is rubbish and my Dad is better than your Dad........

He beat Oscar at 154..didn't make him drain to 147 like other fighters have...

Oscar was the bigger fighter and still highly considered..

Still a top p4per.........as was the unbeaten Hatton and Mosley.....

Marquez aside when has he ever relied on catchweight??

wow_junky wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Go away Junky...

i've already used the argument that Floyd is the only guy since Leonard with 4 current p4p guys on his record...

You're argument is rubbish though.

Oscar was nowhere near top 10 p4p when he beat Floyd.

Here are the 154lb rankings for the 00s -

http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_Ring_Magazine%27s_Annual_Ratings:_Junior_Middleweight--2000s

Oscar is 7th in 2006 and 3rd in 2007 (the year he fought Floyd).

Here are the p4p rankings for the 00s -

http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_Ring_Magazine%27s_Annual_Ratings:_Pound_For_Pound--2000s

Oscar exits the top 10 after losing to Hopkins in 04 and doesn't re-enter them again.

It was a good win against Oscar, moving up against a decent opponent, but don't make him out to be a p4p calibre opponent when he wasn't.

Beat Corrales, Marquez, Mosley and Hatton when they are in the top 10 so I make that 4 top 10 p4ps thanks for proving truss right...Also Castillo enters the top 10 after losing to Floyd Mayweather so your just enhancing the legacy thanks.

manos de piedra wrote:

captain carrantuohil wrote:I take them into account, but believe that in the round, Manny's ambition has been more in proportion with his talent than Floyd's. I think, strangely enough, that we have not seen the best of Floyd, and perhaps, we never will. You have suggested that we do not know what his limitations are, and I think that this is very true, largely because, especially in the latter stages of his career, he has chosen not to exert himself sufficiently to test them. Up to and including 135, Floyd's CV is much better. Since then, the comparison entirely favours Manny, the more so since he is operating so far above his original weight classes.

I probably would have said the opposite to be honest. 135 and below Pacquiao holds wins over the big 3 Mexicans and is 5-1-1 against MAB, Morales and Marquez. This trumps Mayweather for me.

Above 135 Pacquiao has been more active but far more selective in his choices. You could say hes naturaly not as big as Floyd which makes them better but Mayweather took on the fresher and more rated versions of Hatton, Mosely and De la Hoya (and now Ortiz) compared to Pacquiaos more scavenging tactics where many of wins come with some kind of asterix. Other than perhaps Cotto, I dont think Pacquaio has much on Mayweather at 140 and above.

Agree, above 140lb Mayweather has the greater depth, although he has been at welterweight for 4 years longer! Pac holds 2 of the top 3 wins between the pair of them above 140lb though, I'd rank them something like this;

1. Cotto
2. Hatton (Floyd)
3. Hatton (Pac)
4. Oscar (Floyd)
5. Judah
6. Mosely (Floyd)
7. Ortiz
8. Clottey

The main reason I feel that Floyd's record below 135 is so good is what he achieved as a super-feather, Manos. To me, only Arguello is his peer in this division, one which Floyd absolutely dominated, seeing off good challenger after good challenger. Manny fought the best, and came out well in credit, but I don't think that it matches Floyd's iron-fisted rule at 130. Manny didn't really fight that much at 135, although I accept that Floyd didn't exactly set the world alight at the weight either. For me, Floyd has just been too idle at 140/147, on the other hand, to warrant a place above Manny at that stage of their careers.

The genius of PBF wrote:

wow_junky wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Go away Junky...

i've already used the argument that Floyd is the only guy since Leonard with 4 current p4p guys on his record...

You're argument is rubbish though.

Oscar was nowhere near top 10 p4p when he beat Floyd.

Here are the 154lb rankings for the 00s -

http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_Ring_Magazine%27s_Annual_Ratings:_Junior_Middleweight--2000s

Oscar is 7th in 2006 and 3rd in 2007 (the year he fought Floyd).

Here are the p4p rankings for the 00s -

http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_Ring_Magazine%27s_Annual_Ratings:_Pound_For_Pound--2000s

Oscar exits the top 10 after losing to Hopkins in 04 and doesn't re-enter them again.

It was a good win against Oscar, moving up against a decent opponent, but don't make him out to be a p4p calibre opponent when he wasn't.

Beat Corrales, Marquez, Mosley and Hatton when they are in the top 10 so I make that 4 top 10 p4ps thanks for proving truss right...Also Castillo enters the top 10 after losing to Floyd Mayweather so your just enhancing the legacy thanks.

Judah was still top 10 I think when they fought, so it's technically 5. Pac still has more p4p wins though (Barrera x 2, Marquez, Hatton, Cotto, Morales).

Agreed Manos also add the catchweight stuff to the pot..

Also add that those Mexican legends were on the wane....

Also add names like Junior Jones to the mix..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:My argument is my argument......I think yours is rubbish and my Dad is better than your Dad........

He beat Oscar at 154..didn't make him drain to 147 like other fighters have...

Oscar was the bigger fighter and still highly considered..

Still a top p4per.........as was the unbeaten Hatton and Mosley.....

Marquez aside when has he ever relied on catchweight??

So Pac should have gone from 135lb to 154lb to fight Oscar?

Oscar shouldn't have gone to 147 to fight Paccy if he didn't have it in him..

Oscar couldn't make 147 and hadn't for a while...

Like Curry losing to mccallum and trying to drain....

Oscar looked like an extra from schindlers list..

No 147...no fight for Oscar..

captain carrantuohil wrote:The main reason I feel that Floyd's record below 135 is so good is what he achieved as a super-feather, Manos. To me, only Arguello is his peer in this division, one which Floyd absolutely dominated, seeing off good challenger after good challenger. Manny fought the best, and came out well in credit, but I don't think that it matches Floyd's iron-fisted rule at 130. Manny didn't really fight that much at 135, although I accept that Floyd didn't exactly set the world alight at the weight either. For me, Floyd has just been too idle at 140/147, on the other hand, to warrant a place above Manny at that stage of their careers.

Lightweight cetainly Mayweather has got it but would definately have to go with Pacquiao at superfeather myself. Perhaps not as dominant as Mayweather performance wise but holding wins over Morales x 2, Barrera x 2 and Marquez as well as credible contenders like Solis and Larrios means he definately took care of business at the weight. Mayweathers only real top drawer win at superfeather was Corrales for me, although it was admittadly a master class.

Lightweight Pacquaio only has the average Diaz so Mayweathers longetivity and wins there far outstrip him.

Above that I dont think theres much in it but the fact that half of Mannys opponents have been Floyd leftovers combined with shady weight stipulations and timing means I prefer Floyds.

Mayweather takes on guys when their stock and ratings are high whereas Pacquiao is almost the opposite.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Oscar shouldn't have gone to 147 to fight Paccy if he didn't have it in him..

Oscar couldn't make 147 and hadn't for a while...

Like Curry losing to mccallum and trying to drain....

Oscar looked like an extra from schindlers list..

No 147...no fight for Oscar..

Yeah, Curry got sparked by Mike because he was weight drained!! I've heard it all now.

Oscar offered Pac the fight at 147lb because he though it would be easy pickings, you can't blame Pac for taking it.

I meant Curry going back to welter after being sparked...

My apologies..