Martin Johnson's selections.

I was actually looking for some SA rugby news to share with you guys, but then this article caught my eye.
Martin Corry is not too happy with Martin Johnson's squad selections.

Here is a link.

http://www.supersport.com/rugby/international/news/110715/Tighten_eligibility_rules_Corry


Please don't get all England bashing, try to be a little mature on this beautiful friday.

I don't really disagree with what Corry said - the article was pretty poor though, since it failed to clarify that most of the 13 in the squad don't qualify through a single grandparent or just having lived here for 3 years.

I think pretty much everyone on here have agreed that the rules need tightening which is all Corry says. Idiot journalist then opts to try and make is sound more sensational.

Martin Corry mentions Thomas Waldrom that's it.

I am surprised there is no widespread media criticism of the woeful choices in the centre and lack of depth at no 8.

This whole foreign issue isn't important. It's the fact these "foreigners" aren't the best in England in their position. Possibly Botha is but not much more than the likes of Attwood or Borthwick who missed out.

Are Hape and Flutey really better than Allen and Barritt? No

Is Waldrom a better pick than Narraway,Crane and Dowson? No

Is Fourie a better pick than Johnson,Fearns,Saull,Dowson (again),Armitage? No

Manu isn't strictly English but he's the best choice at outside centre and no one would begrudge him a spot.

When Flutey was picked in 2009 at inside centre he was the best option, 2 years later he should be nowhere near the squad. He has spent the last two years either being injured or involved in two badly performing clubs.

Fourie is the most overrated flanker in the league. Top 10 for most missed tackles. Can't get signed by a club above 10th place. Got destroyed by his fellow countryman in the Autumn. Part of a relegated Leeds side.

Waldrom has had one season in the AP. Not seen as good enough to start in the most important matches - HC quarter final and AP final.

Hape - should be re named Hapless. Got outfoxed by Wales in first 6 nations match and got torn to shreds by Ireland. An average season in the AP. Bath fans are pleased to see the back of him.

The selection of Botha disappointed me more than the selection of Waldrom. Waldrom at least has a tenuous link to this country where as Botha has merely followed the money. Add to that the frankly average and rather up your jumper performances in the Saxons and you have to wonder how he's made the team, he doesn't fit in with the way England play and really doesn't offer more than we have already. The only benefit of it is that if he goes he might weaken Sarries though I doubt it.

Hape and Flutey are quite useless but we all knew they'd make it. Just hope Leicester boy Manu gets in the squad and offers us some midfield go forward.

Agree whole heartedly on the Fourie point.

Sam you have got to have some players from the AP champions in the England squad. I would rather have Barritt and Goode in the England squad than Botha but still...

Nice to see a player being rewarded for winning a trophy.

Botha has been part of the best lineout in the AP. He is an AP winner and started the AP final unlike 3 of the other Leicester boys in the England squad - Tuilagi,Cole and Waldrom. He looked pretty decent in the final to me.

Botha has been playing in England for at least 5 years. Had plied his trade at Bedford Blues for 3 years. He didn't just swan over from NZ for the cash. He has also been one of the best locks in the league for 2 years, not just one year.

We all knew Waldrom,Fourie,Flutey and Hape would make it but it doesn't make it right.

If not having Botha in the squad meant neither were Waldrom,Flutey,Hape or Fourie I would be very pleased. Botha deserves to be there more than those guys in my opinion anyway.

"Rules that allowed England rugby manager Martin Johnson to fill almost a third of his World Cup training squad with foreign players are wrong, former captain Martin Corry said on Friday."

You see, when I say that, I get 400 posts calling me a racist, decrying the mercenary Kiwis, and simultaneously trying to claim they're all English really anyway.

Top marks Martin for coming out with some sense!

We now have more kiwis in the squad than the AB's have in theirs...

Surely we should just go straight to the 'pacific islands' and cut out the middle man?

TheGreyGhost wrote:"Rules that allowed England rugby manager Martin Johnson to fill almost a third of his World Cup training squad with foreign players are wrong, former captain Martin Corry said on Friday."

You see, when I say that, I get 400 posts calling me a racist, decrying the mercenary Kiwis, and simultaneously trying to claim they're all English really anyway.

Top marks Martin for coming out with some sense!

Except he didn't say that, did he?
The idiot journalist did to try and get attention.

Ovalball - pick up your knuckles, they're scuffing again.

Snoopster...he did say that. "I think the rules are wrong." you can't get a more direct quote on that one. Sorry, there is no wriggle room there.

Thegreyghost you are a racist but that's not the main point.

This so called article is just media hype. I would take it firmly with a pinch of salt. It is not gospel.

Almost a third are foreign players? What are you on about?

Don't you live in England greyghost. Why do you enjoy biting the mouth that feeds you?

beshocked wrote: Botha has been part of the best lineout in the AP. He is an AP winner and started the AP final unlike 3 of the other Leicester boys in the England squad - Tuilagi,Cole and Waldrom. He looked pretty decent in the final to me.

To be fair, Manu would have started if he'd not been suspended so it is a bit unfair to group him in there - he wasn't missing through not being first choice. And in the case of Cole, even though he didn't start he's still the best tighthead available to England... I'm sure Castro would be picked ahead of him though if he was english qualified

Agree with you about Botha - he bothers me a lot less than Hape, Flutey and Waldrom, since he's at least worked his way up through the league system to some extent rather than joined at the top.

It really should read, "A non-natational born player can qualify for the national side if a parent or grandparent was born in the nation, or if they complete 36 consecutive months of residency."

VERY, VERY, VERY poor journalism. I would love to seewhere in the IRB rules on player qualification where it only applies to England. And TGG stop making things up. Why don't you concentrate on New Zealand instead of obsessing over England ?

Sam you have got to have some players from the AP champions in the England squad

Why do you? That's a pointless comment. If English players from other teams fit the method in which England are playing better than those of the champions than why should the player from the successful club get automatic selection? There are players from Sarries I would like to see in the England squad but Botha certainly isn't one of them. It's not an attack on Sarries I just think he among a few other England selections are just dead wood and although, valuable to their club side are not really adding anything to the national team. Now if we were to look at Sarries players who warrant call ups then Barritt would be an immeadiate replacement for Hape in my view (followed swiftly by Allen for Flutey), not sure on Goode as I though Brown looked more confortable for the Saxons.

beshocked wrote:Thegreyghost you are a racist but that's not the main point.

This so called article is just media hype. I would take it firmly with a pinch of salt. It is not gospel.

Almost a third are foreign players? What are you on about?

Don't you live in England greyghost. Why do you enjoy biting the mouth that feeds you?

England doesn't feed me. And criticism of English institutions isn't racism, it's just criticism.

Yes I know snoopster it is true but it was a sly little dig at Manu. I genuinely believe if he hadn't been so unbelievably foolish he could have given you that cutting edge you badly needed.

Manu and Cole deserve their spots in the England squad - I am not denying that.

I really don't mind if Botha is picked or not but if you are going to pick the likes of Waldrom,Fourie etc he deserves to be picked too.

I am more worried about full back - Mike Brown,Alex Goode or even Abendanon instead of Armitage. Also centres should have been Allen and Barritt instead of Flutey and Hape.

Barritt has an English mother.

Greyghost you live in England no? Why would you criticise somewhere that you voluntarily moved to and work in? You are a mad man.

biltongbek wrote:IPlease don't get all England bashing, try to be a little mature on this beautiful friday.

I admire your optimism for thinking there was a chance of that happening with greyghost on the site

I'm not domiciled in England for erm, reasons. This surely paves the way for a bit of critique in the same way that Waldrom qualifies for England.


Besides it's easier to criticise the place you live in, than places you don't. Ask any ex-pat Englander living on the North Shore.

Does that 13 include Simon Shaw being born in Kenya? He's pretty damn English if you ask me.

Hartley has an english parent and has been here since he was 13/14/15 depending on where you read. So he's got a good right to play for England.

I do have issues with the genuine foreigners like Botha...etc when we have youngsters like Kitchener / Attwood etc etc

I accept we need to put the strongest team out...but in the name of development id rather have a few iffy performances than a team full of foreigners

beshocked wrote:Yes I know snoopster it is true but it was a sly little dig at Manu. I genuinely believe if he hadn't been so unbelievably foolish he could have given you that cutting edge you badly needed.

Manu and Cole deserve their spots in the England squad - I am not denying that.

I really don't mind if Botha is picked or not but if you are going to pick the likes of Waldrom,Fourie etc he deserves to be picked too.

I am more worried about full back - Mike Brown,Alex Goode or even Abendanon instead of Armitage. Also centres should have been Allen and Barritt instead of Flutey and Hape.

I'm not sure Manu not being there was what tipped the balance, it would have given Tigers more chance though. Now though I just hope it was a good leasson for him so he doesn't do something stupid like that again.

Agreed about full back - if there was just one change to the squad then I'd like to have seen Goode go because with such a lack of creativity at centre it would have been really useful to have a back up to Foden who can help the fly half out if he plays and take some of the pressure there. Plus it is useful to have a good kicking option aside from the fly half. Ideally I think pretty much everyone agrees that Allen and Barritt should be there in place of Hape and Flutey and most that Goode or Brown would have been a better call than Armitage

Thegreyghost I just want to get to the heart of why you dislike England. Is it the weather? The women? The men? The culture? Or is it simply the English rugby side you reserve your anger for? It's good to talk. Maybe we can help you out.

I can imagine Greyghost working in a walkabout pub in London. Good excuse to watch the rugby and have a pint permanently within reach whilst having yet another rant about the England rugby team to customers.

TheGreyGhost wrote:I'm not domiciled in England for erm, reasons. This surely paves the way for a bit of critique in the same way that Waldrom qualifies for England.


Besides it's easier to criticise the place you live in, than places you don't. Ask any ex-pat Englander living on the North Shore.

I dont know the Welsh find plenty of time to critisize England too even when they stayy their side of the dyke (and no i dont mean Ruth Madock).

The issue here is should players be selected purely on merit, or on how English they are.
The side issue thats come from that is haveJohnsons selections a bias toward SH raised players ( and that would include guys like Wood) because of his perception that the rugby culture in New Zealand and South Africa breeds a tougher attitude and more professional mentality than that here. Whilst many people want England to err on the side of discrimnation in favour of the likes of Crane because hes properly English. Johsnson appears to favour the likes of Waldrom (who Crane keeps out of the Tigers side) because hes part of the winning New Zealand rugby culture, not the English one. Perhaps personal experience funnels into that.

I'm a Scot living in London and I moan about this country all the time, but my rants are usually not of a nationalistic nature, more targeted at the crumbling infrastructure and that fact that the inflation applicable to a pint of lager in London appears to be at least quadruple the inflation applicable to my salary!

FES, I'm not sure it's any cheaper to drink in Edinburgh and it serves you right for drinking lager

Hiring foreign players stretching the qualification laws to the max is what scotland and Wales did in the late nineties, it caused the IRB to change, to tighten the laws. As a Welshman i saw what Graham Henry was doing as a backward step for the progress of young welsh players.

What is happening in the England team is not dissimilar. It is legal but no different in its effect on the progress of young English players.

Which is why it surprises me that so many englishman on this forum are so comfortable with the current trends in selection.

It is good that Corry supports Narraway on this.

maestegmafia wrote:Hiring foreign players stretching the qualification laws to the max is what scotland and Wales did in the late nineties, it caused the IRB to change, to tighten the laws. As a Welshman i saw what Graham Henry was doing as a backward step for the progress of young welsh players.

What is happening in the England team is not dissimilar. It is legal but no different in its effect on the progress of young English players.

Which is why it surprises me that so many englishman on this forum are so comfortable with the current trends in selection.

It is good that Corry supports Narraway on this.

It's completely different. The Welsh and Scottish actively went out to bring in players with possibly qualification with the point of playing for the international side.

England are just playing players who legally qualify through actions completely unrelated to the RFU. They're selecting people who have immigrated and qualified. I expect MJ to select the players who will make the best team. I would have no probably whatsoever with him selecting an entire team out of 3 year residency player.

It would cause me great concern with problems within the system but the problem would not be with the selector. I've said before I would like the grandparent rule removed and residency made up to 5 years but this would have little impact on the squad. Waldrum wouldn't be qualified and Flutey and Hape wouldn't have qualified when they played (although Hape has lived in England for much longer than 3 years it wasn't down as his continuous permanent address). That's it.

funnyExiledScot wrote:I'm a Scot living in London and I moan about this country all the time, but my rants are usually not of a nationalistic nature, more targeted at the crumbling infrastructure and that fact that the inflation applicable to a pint of lager in London appears to be at least quadruple the inflation applicable to my salary!

Look at the positives, unlke most Scottish alcholics in London .....you have a job

HammerofThunor wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Hiring foreign players stretching the qualification laws to the max is what scotland and Wales did in the late nineties, it caused the IRB to change, to tighten the laws. As a Welshman i saw what Graham Henry was doing as a backward step for the progress of young welsh players.

What is happening in the England team is not dissimilar. It is legal but no different in its effect on the progress of young English players.

Which is why it surprises me that so many englishman on this forum are so comfortable with the current trends in selection.

It is good that Corry supports Narraway on this.

It's completely different. The Welsh and Scottish actively went out to bring in players with possibly qualification with the point of playing for the international side.

England are just playing players who legally qualify through actions completely unrelated to the RFU. They're selecting people who have immigrated and qualified. I expect MJ to select the players who will make the best team. I would have no probably whatsoever with him selecting an entire team out of 3 year residency player.

It would cause me great concern with problems within the system but the problem would not be with the selector. I've said before I would like the grandparent rule removed and residency made up to 5 years but this would have little impact on the squad. Waldrum wouldn't be qualified and Flutey and Hape wouldn't have qualified when they played (although Hape has lived in England for much longer than 3 years it wasn't down as his continuous permanent address). That's it.

As I said the rules were different and Wales and Scotland did advertise for players. I wasn't happy about it at all, neither were many people I know in Wales at the time.

There's nothing stopping teams doing it now. That, however, is not what the RFU are doing.

maestegmafia wrote:Hiring foreign players stretching the qualification laws to the max is what scotland and Wales did in the late nineties.

No it's not, it's completely different. Scotland and Wales broke the laws, England haven't. Let's not forget Wales have also had "foreign" players qualify through residency of 3 years.

HammerofThunor wrote:There's nothing stopping teams doing it now. That, however, is not what the RFU are doing.

Unlike the Scotts who actively recruit dual qualified age group England players, givieng them contracts at the regional clubs on the undertanding they will play for Scotland as seniors.

Gatland "tapping up" Ben Morgan is somewhere between the two.



Still misses the point of why Johnsons being critisized though.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:There's nothing stopping teams doing it now. That, however, is not what the RFU are doing.

Unlike the Scotts who actively recruit dual qualified age group England players, givieng them contracts at the regional clubs on the undertanding they will play for Scotland as seniors.

Gatland "tapping up" Ben Morgan is somewhere between the two.



Still misses the point of why Johnsons being critisized though.

Tim Visser springs to mind as well, who actually became eligble to play for England on the day he signed for Edinburgh.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:There's nothing stopping teams doing it now. That, however, is not what the RFU are doing.

Unlike the Scotts who actively recruit dual qualified age group England players, givieng them contracts at the regional clubs on the undertanding they will play for Scotland as seniors.

Gatland "tapping up" Ben Morgan is somewhere between the two.



Still misses the point of why Johnsons being critisized though.

Johnson is being criticised here by English fans who think there are players better than the non English born squad members, like Waldron, fourie, hape, flutey and so on.

Johnson is being criticised elsewhere for selecting players from the southern hemisphere over English ones.

Oh look its just the nature of things. Evolution and the way things are shared around over time.
England came out here 300 years ago and shared with us their language culture education and knowledge.
The our pacific neighbours were able to enhance our country with multiculturism and shared our love of rugby.
Now we go full circle and are able to share with mother england, the country with all its riches, the only thing it doesnt have.

Rugby players!

And we're happy to do that given the help theyve given us over the years.

And graciously left us with the union jack for our flag and the really worthwhile Monarchy. Like a girlfriend with herpes, it's just a relationship that keeps giving.

Wow - a couple of whinging Poms. Welcome home fellas.

just a dig pj...my hangover'll be gone soon!

Just saw it on the news. Really odd road to go down...

Dig away Taylorman, I know where you're coming from and none ever taken.

Sorry to hear about the hangover, the best thing for a hangover is drinking heavily the night before, so I've heard.

What have you seen on the news?

Share please.

TheGreyGhost wrote:And graciously left us with the union jack for our flag and the really worthwhile Monarchy. Like a girlfriend with herpes, it's just a relationship that keeps giving.

Incidentally, it's the Union Flag, Union Jack is a term that has been popularised by the ignorant and is only pertinent when used by the Royal Navy, as a foreign mercenary though you're quite excused so no worries.

Actually I didn't type Union Jack, I typed Union Jack, I guess the anti-sweating auto-changer on 606v2 kicked in.

Interesting to hear that even Brits consider the Navy to be ignorant though.

The RN is a very small minority TGG, "the ignorant" that are guilty of the popularisation of the term come from without, i.e. the lubbers.

Can't say I'm surprised that you're putting words into someone else's mouth though, it's not the first time is it?

it is ridiculous that england choose that many players from outside the u.k when they have the largest player pool in the world, and still use foreign players, people like manu tuilagi i can understand having lived here at a young age and can almost agree on hartley having coming up through the ages and never showing any signs of wanting to play for anyone else. its people like waldrom and botha for me who shouldnt be in the squad, just cos they are not good enough to get into their respective nations teams doesnt mean they should use other means to play internationally

And all those players are eligible to play for England.

Martin Johnson is going about constructing the strongest England-qualified squad he thinks he can in a typically unemotional, single minded way. Don't blame him or anyone else for doing so in line with the nonsenses in the rules made by others.

Both Martins are right. Johnson for constructing the strongest eligible squad he is entitled to, Corry for pointing out the folly of the rules which allow Johnson to do so.

The only people anyone should be getting narky with are the idiots who came up with the current eligibility rules which make a mockery of national allegiance by any sensible definition of the term.

PS: if players choose to play for England because they can't make the national side of their country of origin, surely that shouldn't be a problem for their country of origin as the inference to be drawn surely is that they have other players available in the same position whom they consider better & stronger. So their team should be stronger.

To my mind, the real problem would come if a player chose another country for whatever reason when he would otherwise have been first choice for his country of origin.

The Royal Navy don't use the term Union jack either. The Jack is the pole/ staff at the bow of a warship which the union flag is tied onto when entering/exiting and berthed in Ports.

I should know, I put the bloody thing up enough times!

The inclusion of New Zealand-born Thomas Waldrom prompted back-rower Luke Narraway to issue a message on his Twitter page (@lukenarraway) that appeared to take issue with Waldrom's eligibility through his English grandmother.

"Good luck to Thomas the Tank and his English nan #notbittermuch" wrote Narraway.

Perhaps if you were a better player Luke, Waldrom's grandmother wouldn't have been an issue.

If the players qualify, they qualify. Although it doesn't say much for your age group transition.

maestegmafia wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:There's nothing stopping teams doing it now. That, however, is not what the RFU are doing.

Unlike the Scotts who actively recruit dual qualified age group England players, givieng them contracts at the regional clubs on the undertanding they will play for Scotland as seniors.

Gatland "tapping up" Ben Morgan is somewhere between the two.



Still misses the point of why Johnsons being critisized though.

Johnson is being criticised here by English fans who think there are players better than the non English born squad members, like Waldron, fourie, hape, flutey and so on.

Johnson is being criticised elsewhere for selecting players from the southern hemisphere over English ones.

Spot on Maestegmafia.

The problem I have with Martin Johnson is that he is picking foreign players who are older/worse than English,younger better options available.

When Flutey was first picked in 2009 I didn't mind as he was the best option at 12 at the time. Since then our depth at inside centre has improved, Flutey in comparison has done nothing for the last 2 years to deserve his England spot. I have already criticised the other foreign picks by MJ.

It's not just foreign players. I don't feel Sheridan,Payne,Shaw,Armitage etc have done enough recently to deserve squad spots. Arguably Sheridan but he lives on former glory in my opinion.

You pick the best available but MJ is not doing that!

I already said who I would replace all these players with

Fourie with Saull- a South African journeyman who can't get into a strong club vs an AP winner

Armitage with Goode or Brown - a FB who has gone from hero to zero vs the two form full backs in the AP - both have won silverware.

Payne with Marler - a journeyman prop vs an Amlin challenge cup winner

Hape with Barritt - a Kiwi journeyman who got skinned by Wales and destroyed by Ireland vs the best defensive inside centre in the AP.

Flutey with Allen - a Kiwi journeyman who has been either injured or plying his trade for two clubs performing very badly for two years vs the inside centre that makes the Leicester side tick in attack.

Shaw with Attwood or Borthwick - an old warrior who will be 38 in September, probably can't last a full 80 match vs the best lineout man in the AP/AP winning captain or English young gun.


Yes I know I am biased but the AP winners need more representation in my opinion.

Beshocked that's a tad harsh on Shaw. He may have been born in Kenya but he really is English through and through. He was sent to an independent British school in Madrid for his education. His parents clearly wanted him to have British roots despite them living in Kenya at that time. Plus he gets through more work in a game than Borthwick will in two and isn't likely to cop a silly dismissal or citing unlike Attwood.

As for the Marler vs Payne debate that is moot. Neither is good enough to go to the RWC and neither will. It will be four of the five of Stevens, Cole, Sheridan, Corbisiero and Doran-Jones.

Agree on the rest even if I don't rate Saull quite as highly as you do.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Beshocked that's a tad harsh on Shaw. He may have been born in Kenya but he really is English through and through. He was sent to an independent British school in Madrid for his education. His parents clearly wanted him to have British roots despite them living in Kenya at that time. Plus he gets through more work in a game than Borthwick will in two and isn't likely to cop a silly dismissal or citing unlike Attwood.

Agreed.

I think it is a bit Harsh when people are citing players along these lines, and there is a defining difference in my mind between players like Shaw and Corbisero or even in other countries like O'Gara, George North, Jon Davies or Heaslip compared to Fourie, Flutey, Hape and Vainikolo etc who would have spent all their childhood supporting the Nation of their birth but now pledge themselves to a rival.