Wales 19 - 9 England : Post Match Discussion.

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James Hook scored the crucial try as Wales beat England in a pulsating if error-strewn World Cup warm-up clash at Cardiff's Millennium Stadium.

Wales, who lost Gavin Henson to injury, led 6-3 after two Rhys Priestland penalties but Toby Flood levelled it.

England dominated either side of half-time but failed to unlock Wales' defence, only managing another penalty.

Wales picked themselves up to score with Hook's try just before the hour and he landed two penalties to seal it.

England failed to score a try for the first time in 14 Tests to leave manager Martin Johnson with plenty to ponder ahead of their final warm-up match against Ireland in Dublin on 27 August.

Wales head coach Warren Gatland had told his team they had to win if they hoped to be considered serious contenders for the forthcoming World Cup, and they duly ended a three-match losing streak ahead of Argentina's visit to Cardiff next Saturday.

Gatland proud of Wales win
The hosts began strongly, George North taking an innovative kick-off on the right flank to set up a first-minute penalty for Priestland.

But England replied in kind as Flood's restart fell to Nick Easter and this time Wales got on the wrong side of referee Alain Rolland for the England fly-half to level.

Jamie Roberts was a knock-on away from a sensational try from Lloyd Burns' long line-out throw as the venom with which Wales started continued unabated.

Priestland's second penalty was the reward after 10 minutes, but when Wales' early fury abated, England's forward power began to take its toll.

In a display reminiscent of Johnson's heyday as captain, England's driving line-outs and close-quarter aggression were the foundation of a territorial dominance that spanned the game's two middle quarters.

An impressive series of scrums close to the Welsh line had the hosts in all sorts of trouble and on the brink of conceding a penalty try.

But just as that moment approached, England's pack lost control of the ball and when Richard Wigglesworth launched the backline attack, Henson was equal to the challenge.

He brought down Shontayne Hape and the ball spilled into grateful Welsh hands. But after an impressive opening half-hour, Henson was forced off by injury.

England wing Matt Banahan - who came into the starting line-up after Chris Ashton failed a fitness test - looked set to score in the right corner after 13 minutes but Shane Williams brought down the towering wing and Hook stripped him of the ball as he attempted to touch down.

Johnson frustrated by England errors
Flood levelled after Wales went off their feet at a ruck and for the rest of the opening period the hosts were forced to defend.

They did so admirably even if England showed a lack of invention and cutting edge in the Welsh 22.

Flood sent Mike Tindall through a hole in midfield on a 40-metre run, but Wales again thwarted the threat close to their own line when Hape was scragged, leaving England increasingly frustrated.

The hosts reshuffled their back division at the break, Aled Brew coming on at wing, Priestland departing and Williams switching to full-back.

Roberts was sin-binned within moments of the restart for not releasing the tackler, further disrupting their back division, and Flood put England ahead for the first time.

As the contest wore on the fitness advantage Wales skipper Sam Warburton and Roberts had claimed over their opponents seemed to be true.

The hosts' attacking style drew England back and forth across the field and as the gaps appeared Wales edged closer and closer to the try-line.

Just before the hour Hook evaded Dan Cole, James Haskell and Danny Care to touch down and reclaim the lead, converting his own try.

The Perpignan-bound player added a penalty after 68 minutes and despite Wales losing scrum-half Mike Phillips to the sin-bin with nine minutes left, England could still not take advantage.

Hook landed another penalty from halfway in the final minute to send the Welsh fans home delirious, and England away with much to contemplate.

Wales: Hook, North, Roberts, Henson, Shane Williams, Priestland, Phillips; James, Burns, Mitchell, Charteris, AW Jones, Lydiate, Warburton (capt), Faletau. Replacements: Bennett (for Burns, 53), Bevington (for James, James for Mitchell, 77), Turnbull, Tipuric, Knoyle, Scott Williams (for Henson, 32), Brew (for Priestland, 41).

Yellow card: Roberts (41), Phillips (71)

England: Foden, Banahan, Tindall (capt), Hape, Cueto; Flood, Wigglesworth; Corbisiero, Thompson, Cole; Deacon, Lawes; Wood, Fourie, Easter.

Replacements: Mears (for Thompson, 59), Stevens (for Corbisiero, 59), Palmer (for Deacon, 68), Haskell (for Fourie, 50), Care (for Wigglesworth, 30), Hodgson (for Flood, 68), Armitage (for Tindall, 59, Tindall back on 74).

Referee: A Rolland (Ire)

Attendance: 73,000

If we'd had the ability to score and made a few stupid errors in try scoring positions then I'd say we threw it away. As it is, we had absolutely no attacking threat in the backs at all. Wales did defend well, but the lack of variety from flood et al was really shocking.

Saying we threw it away in this case is basically saying "if we had a better team we could have won". A few errors didn't cost us this game. Not having good back play did.

Seagultaff- you have to release the talked player first though. I think that was what was penalised.

England tried some backline moves but they were so easy to read. Your dummy running was fooling no one. I imagine what angered Martin Johnson the most was that no one had the sense to change things when they weren't working. It's as if England were following Wales's example of the recent past (hopefully behind us now): if Plan A isn't working, keep trying it until it does.

RubyGuby wrote:

EnglishReign wrote:England did throw it away though. Dominating possession enough to go for the lineout, rather than 3 points. Any team with an ounce of attacking threat would've stuck 40 on Wales if they'd been as dominant as England were.

I said it at the end of the last game and I'll say it again; for a big lad, Banahan is completely ineffective. England have work to do, but if Wales let anyone else dominate them like that they will get slaughtered.

That's what frustrates other nations - Actually you didn't throw it away, you just lacked the creativity to break down a strong defence - This taking penalties myth that most of you are peddling is embarrassing - Wales didn't go for penaltys or drop goals last week but those are the choices you make. Any decent leader might have said after 50 minutes, lets take what's on offer 'cos we aint gonna score a try. Tindall using it as a sort of "we could have scored if we wanted to" just wreaks of arrogance and a bad losing demeanour. If you had gone for the points maybe Wales would have upped the anti and scored more trys. Maybe maybe, if only if only. Just take it and move on. You were beaten by a better team who stifled you when you had the ball. Defences often win games. This was a case in hand.

And 20 minutes with 14 men and you never looked like scoring. That's great defence as well as poor back play

Yeah, I acknowledge that we lacked the creativity, I'm saying we should've taken a hint and gone for 3 points when we realised we couldn't score. It's a shame we didn't have a natural finisher on instead on Banahan. Sharples, Strettle, JSD, even Monye would've buried the oppurtunities.

The Welsh are no angels btw, you also frustrate other nations with your assumption that Wales are now the better team after finally winning one game against England this year. You're all as bad as the English media you so hate. Let's see what happens in September

If's and maybe again, those players would bring more creativity to England and Adam, Gethin and Rees would be more than a handful for any pack. There is very little between these teams, an 8 point win in the 6 nations is hardly a hammering yet there's this underlying assumption that you are close to the finished article, Ireland, S Africa and Scotland would suggest otherwise and this realism should do you more good than harm

I haven't seen one welsh poster suggesting we are the better team and contrary to that many welsh posters are damning and critical of yesterdays performance -

There is very little between these sides - sorry if that hurts.

RubyGuby wrote:If's and maybe again, those players would bring more creativity to England and Adam, Gethin and Rees would be more than a handful for any pack. There is very little between these teams, an 8 point win in the 6 nations is hardly a hammering yet there's this underlying assumption that you are close to the finished article, Ireland, S Africa and Scotland would suggest otherwise and this realism should do you more good than harm

I haven't seen one welsh poster suggesting we are the better team and contrary to that many welsh posters are damning and critical of yesterdays performance -

There is very little between these sides - sorry if that hurts.

As I said, we'll see next month when both sides are at full strength. If you turn out to be correct, yes it will hurt

Let's be honest. Both teams were abysmal. (your back row and our front row aside)

That's a bit too simplistic. Our set pieces were pretty ropey, but we defended well when you had the ball - again, it's not our fault you didn't make better use of the ball you had - and we made the most of our (only?) visit to your 22 in the second half.

But it wasn't the greatest game of rugby I've ever seen.

tomathy wrote:
Saying we threw it away in this case is basically saying "if we had a better team we could have won". A few errors didn't cost us this game. Not having good back play did.

I have to say that I think Englands problem isn't so much the backplay but their inability to generate quick ball at the breakdown. It was the same against Ireland and Scotland in the 6N. They don't commit enough numbers and they aren't aggressive enough. I think their backrow is very average and to me Easter and Haskell are not international class players and this is going to continue to be an achilles heel against the better sides.

I think there a plenty of positives for England though. Their set piece is excellent and if Wilkinson had of been playing Wales may well have been kicked out of the game. That said if Jones and Jenkins had of been playing then England might not have had as much scrum dominance.

I think if Wales are injury free then they can be a serious threat in the WC. To be honest from an Irish perspective I'd rather face SA than Wales in the QF right now.

Yes it was simplistic but, whilst Wales do have the win to take away, I don't think either coach will have been very happy with that. Johnson will be worrying about quite how little we created. Gatland will be worrying about what will happen if they give that much possession and territory to a good attacking side.

You were the best side on the day, but I think neither side is up to much as it stands.

tomathy, there's changes to be made in the pack. Such as hooker and tighthead, perhaps 2nd row or perhaps not. Then there's Ryan Jones to come back in who's probably the best lineout jumper. I think it will be a case of problem solved then as long as the back-row and backs keep doing what they do.

Roddersm

I agree our back row is a real problem. I like Easter but you may be right that he doesn't hit rucks hard enough. Haskell never makes the impact that you feel he can. Runs well in space but doesn't really carry well in the tight. I'd love to see Robshaw but it looks like it won't happen until at least the six nations. Quins' win away at munster was founded on how aggressive they were around the fringes, and Robshaw and Fa'asavalu were at the heart of that.

That said, we've seen over the years that England's problems are a bit deeper than selection, and I think that our backs were just clueless yesterday. There's an element of chicken and egg to getting quick ball. It's easier to hit tucks hard when your going forward. It's easier to go forwards when your hitting the rucks hard and getting quick ball.

England's attack was poor, but Wales were awesome in defence. It wasn't just a case of England blowing chances, wales' cover was excellent and so was the amount of times Wales turned England over. The back row and charteris were awesome in defence.

luckless_pedestrian wrote:

manofgwent wrote:Nottins. Malpas in Newport? If so. That's where I grew up.

Same here!

The track is still there I believe. Would mostly be playing football in the multi-use games facility though right next to the park. Never been a regular at the Glad, just attended a few birthday parties there over the years; now one of many places to have shut down. I'm not sure of the Woodlands mog, do you mean the Firs? Also, I grew up in Bettws just over the 'border' up until 6 years old I was an Underwood boy.

right reading all this i shall attempt to give a neutral view.

england did dominate and should have taken points when they were offered.
wales' defence was excellent however the fact england seemed lost in attack did help (i believe if that was any other top 10 team playing wales, then wales wouldnt have won)

wales were poor at the set piece but Bennet steadied the ship, however scrums were a bit dodgey and a different ref may have penalised england or given a penalty try.

wales dominated the rucks and the defence from lydiate, warbs etc was immense

2 yellow cards were harsh (roberts the most so)

wales had 1 real attack and scored from it.


this is all hinsight so in all honesty the only thing that matters is the final score.

19-9

manofgwent wrote:Taff. Love phil. He used to play for the port!

The words slick and professional will never again appear in a sentence including the name Phil Steele!

Watching the replay of the game I noticed some of the England pack simply look over weight, Cole looks as if he has a sack of spuds strapped to his waist, the open side flanker looked like a pudding, Thomson has always been fat (he played very well until he was subbed). Is this the reason England blow up in the second half in the two games i.e., a combination of fatties and old players (Shaw and Thomson)!

glamorganalun wrote:Watching the replay of the game I noticed some of the England pack simply look over weight, Cole looks as if he has a sack of spuds strapped to his waist, the open side flanker looked like a pudding, Thomson has always been fat (he played very well until he was subbed). Is this the reason England blow up in the second half in the two games i.e., a combination of fatties and old players (Shaw and Thomson)!

Shaw wasn't even on the bench, so how he affected the game is unclear.

Agree about Cole looking overweight, but he played very well so difficult to pinpoint any blame on him.

I have to say I went to the game and although both teams were poor I enjoyed it good atmos pre, during and after the game.

My favourite bit was when the announcer asked people to stand for the national anthems only for the welsh fans around me to sit down again once God Save the Queen started, rather pathetic really! It just made me sing even louder and the welsh fans near me weren’t too impressed when I sang the Welsh one too (proper words) when asked by them why I sang both I told the truth, I’m a rugby fan first and have respect for both teams as I’m also a Lions fan every four years, they didn’t really have an answer to that.


But it did start me wondering as to why they showed a complete lack of respect towards the anthems and the game of rugby in general?

Maybe if the Prince of England was welsh you might have some understanding of the welsh antipathy towards royalty and your national anthem, until then I wouldn't go there on these subjects. Wales aren't even represented on the Union Jack - These things run deep within the welsh psyche so don't try and trivialise these things and try to be the big one.

BATH, whilst I agree England/Britains anthem should have been shown respect, don't expect us to sing it. We sing our own National Anthem at rugby and other sporting events and that's how it is.

BATH_BTGOG wrote:I have to say I went to the game and although both teams were poor I enjoyed it good atmos pre, during and after the game.

My favourite bit was when the announcer asked people to stand for the national anthems only for the welsh fans around me to sit down again once God Save the Queen started, rather pathetic really! It just made me sing even louder and the welsh fans near me weren’t too impressed when I sang the Welsh one too (proper words) when asked by them why I sang both I told the truth, I’m a rugby fan first and have respect for both teams as I’m also a Lions fan every four years, they didn’t really have an answer to that.


But it did start me wondering as to why they showed a complete lack of respect towards the anthems and the game of rugby in general?

I'm actually suprised to hear this, it's not unusual on Lions tours to see Welsh boys singing God save the Queen. I remember Scott Quinell singing it vividly. normally it's only the Scottish and Irish who get píssy over the anthem.
the Welsh generally like the English far more than the French or other Celts, but on Wales V England rugby days, the Welsh get a little over excited and nationalistic, but it normally disappears after the game, one way or the other.

Many welsh fans have had similar experiences at Twickenham and this side of the bridge - Lets leave it there as it's not for 606

As you just said you allegedly talked it over with the fans concerned so why bring it on here?

People can be funny over national anthems, regardless of their nationality. I wouldn't say that this was a particular Welsh problem, it happens everywhere. It may not be nice to see at rugby but it's up to us as individuals to handle it maturely and just do things our own way (which you seemed to do Bath - my Dad always sings both of the anthems too )

With regards to the game itself (to get back on topic), I was away yesterday so missed it so have just seen the highlights. Whilst being very happy with the Welsh defensive display (I was v happy with Warbs and Lydiate), I am still very concerned by how little posession we had. Yes, it was great to get the win (and oh how we needed it!), but that is a major issue that needs addressing asap. We won't do well in the RWC if we keep getting such little posession.

rugbydreamer wrote:People can be funny over national anthems, regardless of their nationality. I wouldn't say that this was a particular Welsh problem, it happens everywhere. It may not be nice to see at rugby but it's up to us as individuals to handle it maturely and just do things our own way (which you seemed to do Bath - my Dad always sings both of the anthems too )

With regards to the game itself (to get back on topic), I was away yesterday so missed it so have just seen the highlights. Whilst being very happy with the Welsh defensive display (I was v happy with Warbs and Lydiate), I am still very concerned by how little posession we had. Yes, it was great to get the win (and oh how we needed it!), but that is a major issue that needs addressing asap. We won't do well in the RWC if we keep getting such little posession.

Quite right, remember even the Irish have loyalists

Wales lost every where but on the score board,with that amount of posession ,20 minutes playing 14 men it was embarassing.
Charlie Hodgeson looked sharp when he came on but too late.
Even in there present state the Boks would have had 30 points,great display by Wales defensively.MJ mustbetearing his hair out.
Hook kicked too penalties,BUT a man in the bin,leading,79th minute,PENALTY Wales.WHAT does he do contacts his coach before slotting the goal.
What are they ROBOTS,its a no brainer any school boy,would take the kick to run down the clock ? what.

Contacts his coach is running down the clock in my book.

Hodgson Looked sharp!!, Wales lost everywhere apart from the score board? What game were you watching?

What struck me in both games is how Wales have clearly been the better team in the last half hour of both matches.

Undoubtably we are the fitter side with some English players particularly the front and back rows looking rather flabby compared to their Welsh counterparts.

Clearly the work in Spala paid dividends in these two matches and our extra fitness allowed us to bully England at the breakdown and turn the ball over on many occasions.

Clearly Wales are not good enough to win the World Cup but neither are England and they do not look fit enough either.

Hey emack, I can think of some occassions where New Zealand have won on the scoreboard too...

I only saw highlights,a massive defensive effort by Wales.
Hodgeson came on for last twelve minutes and tried to get England
going.
England dominated the Scrums,it was a very good win for Wales.
So can I nottins Jones but NOT very many since 1996.,31 to be precise and only 6 of them were to NH sides.
The robots comment surely the men on the field should be able to decide for themselves,not like some over coached puppets.
THAT applies to many sides but that was just an example,over the last two games very little between the sides.

emack2 wrote:Wales lost every where but on the score board.

so how did wales win if they lost everywhere?

wales dominated the break down, the only thing wales did wrong was that they were weak at the set pieces apart from that wales took their chances-one time in the opp 22 and 1 try. compared to england 0 tries from god knows how ever many times they were in the welsh 22.


oh and about the anthem debate thing, i for one dont sing the british anthem as i feel that as a welshman i have no recognition of being part of britain with no representation on the flag, therefore i dont sing it (also as its englands anthem, not being anti english but i only sing my national anthem and the fact that england and britains anthem is the same annoys me) however i will always stand for every anthem as that is just respect and those people obviously got carried away with the whole rivalry thing or were just not very respectful people

It's a funny old game. Wales were better in defence, attack and at the breakdown. Engand were better (by a mile) at the set-piece.

Oh, and there's no flippin' way I'd sing the 'British' national anthem.

BATH_BTGOG wrote:
My favourite bit was when the announcer asked people to stand for the national anthems only for the welsh fans around me to sit down again once God Save the Queen started, rather pathetic really! It just made me sing even louder and the welsh fans near me weren’t too impressed when I sang the Welsh one too (proper words) when asked by them why I sang both I told the truth, I’m a rugby fan first and have respect for both teams as I’m also a Lions fan every four years, they didn’t really have an answer to that.

But it did start me wondering as to why they showed a complete lack of respect towards the anthems and the game of rugby in general?

Because they have no respect. I've been on a couple of Lions Tours and have sung the Australian and NZ National Anthems and still do, even at home. It's hilarious that most NZ fans don't attempt to sing the Maori version of their anthem. I also sing Flower of Scotland when they play England, even though some Scottish fans boo during GSTQ.

nottins wrote:
Because they are Welsh, with no respect.

bit far mate, lets not tarnish every welshman/woman with the same brush
we are all individuals and there are bound to be some people who have no respect, but that is the same for every country so please dont say things like that as i find it very disrespectful.

Well said welshy, but unfortunately nottins is still smarting from this defeat and on top of that is still paying back the loan he took out to go watch England win the sevens world cup in 2008; the one Wales won. So now we see him drinking wine and grinding an axe via a rugby debate forum.

welshy824 wrote:

nottins wrote:
Because they are Welsh, with no respect.

bit far mate, lets not paint every welshman/woman with the same brush
we are all individuals and there are bound to be some people who have no respect, but that is the same for every country so please dont say things like that as i find it very disrespectful.

I didn't paint a picture of every Welsh person.

Those that sat down during the English anthem were the ones who had no respect, NOT every Welshman/woman. And I will say as i find, if you find that "disrespectful", that's up to you. I find it disrespectful that Welsh "rugby supporters" disrespect GSTQ.

nottins complained about the comment already.

nottins wrote:

BATH_BTGOG wrote:
My favourite bit was when the announcer asked people to stand for the national anthems only for the welsh fans around me to sit down again once God Save the Queen started, rather pathetic really! It just made me sing even louder and the welsh fans near me weren’t too impressed when I sang the Welsh one too (proper words) when asked by them why I sang both I told the truth, I’m a rugby fan first and have respect for both teams as I’m also a Lions fan every four years, they didn’t really have an answer to that.

But it did start me wondering as to why they showed a complete lack of respect towards the anthems and the game of rugby in general?

Because they are Welsh, with no respect. I've been on a couple of Lions Tours and have sung the Australian and NZ National Anthems and still do, even at home. It's hilarious that most NZ fans don't attempt to sing the Maori version of their anthem. I also sing Flower of Scotland when they play England, even though some Scottish fans boo during GSTQ.

Hey nottins, good to see you - hope you enjoyed the game as much as I did.

BATH - can't see the problem with people not signing your anthem?

when asked by them why I sang both I told the truth, I’m a rugby fan first and have respect for both teams as I’m also a Lions fan every four years, they didn’t really have an answer to that

Sounds a bit elitist mate!

Sometimes I'll have a bit of a singalong with other teams anthems, if I like them - Ireland, Scotland, France and South Africa spring to mind.

Cymroglan wrote:As you just said you allegedly talked it over with the fans concerned so why bring it on here?

to discuss as it's a discussion board.

EDIT: Sorry i replied before reading the rest of the thread. Just ignore this post!

Kiwireddevil wrote:
All, cut out the country-wide generalisations, and the individual name calling.

sorry kiwi,

anyway back on track-
who do the welsh supporters now feel is the best backline after seeing both matches
and same question but towards the english fans.

and neutrals views aswell

Draigoch wrote:It's a funny old game. Wales were better in defence, attack and at the breakdown. Engand were better (by a mile) at the set-piece.

Oh, and there's no flippin' way I'd sing the 'British' national anthem.

I'm the same, i wouldn't sing anyone else's national anthem, but i would stand out of respect.

Oh, I stand as well - no problem with showing respect, I think that's very important.

The best backline...um..

09 Phillips
10 Hook
11 Williams
12 Davies
13 Roberts
14 North
15 Byrne*

*Depending on how he plays.

We often hear from people that they had a problem at one stadium or another but for some strange reason it tends to be the same people all the time.
I have followed rugby for many years and I have never had any problems in any of the stadiums all I have had is brilliant banter and thats probably down to the fact that I go there to have a good time.,

Cymroglan. 100 % agree. In general it's great.

The one thing I've seen/heard that really winds me up is the idiots that seem to yell BOKKE BOKKE during the minutes silence.

That's only happened once Draigoch (2008). I don't think Davies has really put his hand up for a starting spot in the team to face SA yet, seems to be quiet and average for Wales and can throw some wayward passes in the heat of the moment. To everyone saying Roberts is a better 13, he played most of yesterdays game at 12, didn't he?

Actually it happened in 2010 as well. Thing is, who else do we play?

I think Scott is a bit inexperienced for SA, would you move Hook to 12 and Jones/Priestland at 10?

I've seen the Jones and Hook combo and not been impressed. So to get the backline moving and flowing like it already has been I'd go with Priestland, Hook, Roberts. Scott is likely to be on the plane with Henson's injury. He's a bit in-experienced but very, strong fast and especially confident.