Leinster to investigate racism claims

http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2011/0827/mujati.html

Leinster are holding a "full internal investigation" after Northampton prop Brian Mujati claimed he was the subject of racist remarks during last night's pre-season friendly at Donnybrook.

Mujati, 26, made the allegations on Twitter this morning. He later removed the postings, in which he claimed the remarks had come from Leinster prop Heinke van der Merwe and lock Steven Sykes.
Press Association Sport understands that Van der Merwe and Sykes deny the allegations.

The only comment that Leinster would make was in a statement which said: "Following allegations made by a Northampton Saints player this morning via his personal Twitter account, Leinster Rugby are holding a full internal investigation.

"The managements of both teams are in close communication and hopefully the matter will be resolved as soon as possible.

"No further comment will be made at this time until that resolution has been reached."

Zimbabwe-born Mujati, who has won 12 caps for South Africa, was clearly upset when he posted on the social networking site.
A Northampton spokesman told Press Association Sport:

"The club takes any allegations like this very seriously. We will be talking to the player concerned about it and contacting Leinster.
We will not make any further comment at this time."

The Rugby Football Union have confirmed that because the alleged incident took place on Irish soil it falls outside of their jurisdiction.

The IRFU have said they are in touch with Leinster and Northampton on the matter.

Amazing this would happen at a rugby match, to be honest. I hope it's a misunderstanding.

http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/newsroom/8329.php

"Following the allegations made by a Northampton Saints player in the aftermath of Friday night's friendly between Leinster Rugby and Northampton Saints, Leinster Rugby acknowledge that there was an exchange during the match between two Leinster players which was misinterpreted...

It was regrettable that any offence was caused. Both clubs have agreed that the matter is now closed and will now focus on preparing for their respective league campaigns."

Very hard to tell if this is a whitewash or a genuine misunderstanding.

Clearly Brian Mujati wasn't too happy about it, and this seems to verify his claims. So I suppose they claim it wasn't intended to be taken in the way it was, and we won't ever really know whether they are telling the truth or not.

http://www.rugby365.com/news/2778464.htm

Ireland's Sunday Independent newspaper said Van der Merwe and Sykes, who deny racist abuse, were expected to claim they use the word 'bobbejaan' as a trigger call at the scrum in order to gee up the pack and that it comes from their time playing in South Africa. The word translates as baboon

Well there you go. Can pretty much understand why Mujati might take exception if the opposing loosehead is shouting the word 'baboon' before every scrum. Was that choice of word used specifically to try and get in his head? I guess we'll never know. If it was, it worked. But was rather nastier than sledging should be.

Unless they said Brian you are a baboon there is nothing much they can do is there ?
The use of the word baboon is not offensive unless it was directly aimed at him and how would you prove that unless they called him by name.

Yeah, nothing can be done really. Will be interesting to see how it goes down should these two sides cross paths again this season.

This whole thing is disturbing.

Apart from the obvious distaste that anyone should suffer racial abuse on a rugby pitch it also throws up some other confusing questions for me.

When it comes down to it , it should not be any more or less acceptable to call any one a baboon regardless of the colour of their skin and yet the one man who felt it was aimed at him was black. Whilst I can understand that this may be because that word has been used as a term of abuse to him in the past, it seems racist in itself to see it as abusive only to the man with black skin.

I'm not sure if I have explained my confusion very well but I will reiterate that I am absolutely opposed to anyone being judged by the colour of their skin.

Well, I don't think so mrsp. The comparison of people with black skin to primates (therefore being subhuman) goes back to the slave trade. It has a very specific context which is what Mujati is presumably reacting to, a context which is not really applicable when applied to people of other ethnicities.

His personal history will doubtless have made him a lot more sensitive to this. In terms of the rows over 'quotas' and 'transformation' in SA Rugby- well, his selection over the very much in form BJ Botha at a time when he was clearly not ready for international rugby and subsequent under-performance made him a central figure in that debate and there were plenty of people lining up to knock him in RSA. Especially after all the stuff about his Dad benefiting from the eviction of white farmers in Zimbabwe came out.

I wouldn't say it's the first time Brian Mujati has been on the receiving end of this kind of thing, in short. This is a very South African problem that has somehow found it's way into an Irish context.

Is Mujati oversensitive as a result? Maybe. Did Sykes and Van Der Merwe use this to try and wind him up? Could be.

Seems to have been brushed under the carpet with the agreement of both clubs. Gotta feel for Mujati.

Following the allegations made by a Northampton Saints player in the aftermath of Friday night's friendly between Leinster Rugby and Northampton Saints, Leinster Rugby acknowledge that there was an exchange during the match between two Leinster players which was misinterpreted

What a stinking crock of horse Poopie.

The Leinster pack use Afrikaans to gee themselves up? And people believe this? Does it get Jamie Hagan frothing at the mouth? Does Devin Toner suddenly grown two inches in height? Does Shane Jennings suddenly have a mental image of comely maidens dancing at the entrance to the diamond mine?

Anyone who believes that is believing what they want to believe.

At best it wasn't directly said to Mujati, but was said loudly enough to get under his skin. If it got under his skin it was for one reason only, because it's racist.

Sykes and VdM can leave Leinster as far as I'm concerned. Their convenient story isn't good enough.

They haven't always to be fair Greybeard. That said, the fact that they incorporated the Afrikaans word for baboon into their scrum calls just before the visit of Mujati's side must be coincidence. Right? Right?

I don't like it. Really unpleasant story. But as Cymro says, they'll get away with it now. Unless you've got eye-witnesses who can confirm that they directed the term specifically at Mujati, nothing can be done.

greybeard wrote:

Following the allegations made by a Northampton Saints player in the aftermath of Friday night's friendly between Leinster Rugby and Northampton Saints, Leinster Rugby acknowledge that there was an exchange during the match between two Leinster players which was misinterpreted

The Leinster pack use Afrikaans to gee themselves up?

Nobody said it was used to gee them up, it was used as a trigger call.

I find it plausible that it would be so. With VDM the more experienced of the props and Sykes locking the tighthead side they are both crucial parts of the scrum.

If this was a court case there would have to be no reasonable doubt to convict these boys, there is in my mind.

"If this was a court case there would have to be no reasonable doubt to convict these boys, there is in my mind."


True, but it's one of those ones you know they did it, Why use the word Baboon in a callout , if not to try and offend and wind up a player (don't know why they even felt it nessary to start sleding in a friendly?).

POC or Cullen or anyone else for that matter won't shout Baboon as a call, it was choosen specially, and it was choosen to offend in a racist way, no doubt about it, it may not have been directed at a player but everyone knows, why and for who the line out call was choosen.

Leinster and Northampton are prob happy to put the matter behind them, as one can't prove it sufficiently and the other doesnt want assiocated with racism, but I hope Leinster internally come down very very hard on these players, they have damaged the Leinster name and brand and it reflects badly on the province.

babbon sounds a strange trigger call to me !

I don't know any of the people involved but does seem like something was said. Only the guys who did or didn't say it know what happended so time to forget it and move on imo

Mickado wrote:If this was a court case there would have to be no reasonable doubt to convict these boys, there is in my mind.

Aye, just like there was doubt in the OJ case.

greybeard wrote:

Mickado wrote:If this was a court case there would have to be no reasonable doubt to convict these boys, there is in my mind.

Aye, just like there was doubt in the OJ case.

If the glove dont fit....acquit

I’m not defending anyone here. But with the information we have there’s not much to go on.
We can all make inferences till the cows come home, but without the facts we’re just speculating.

Mickado wrote:Nobody said it was used to gee them up, it was used as a trigger call.

The quote from the report above specifically used the term 'gee up'

I know what you mean about reasonable doubt and burden of proof and all that. There is nothing concrete it seems. But VdM and Sykes have damaged Leinster as far as I'm concerned. Their excuse is an insult to the intelligence of every Leinster and Irish rugby fan. And if the rest of the pack knew what the word meant then they need to have a long hard look at themselves as well.

Of course in a RWC year with both men desperately needed Leinster look to have successfully swept this under the carpet. That's even more shameful.

If the word was not used to 'gee up', then any word in the dictionary could be used then, right? Why 'baboon' and not 'candle', or 'pillow' or 'windowsill' ????!. Seems too much of a coincidence to me. Also, unless you're a completely stupid human being you'd surely think 'hang on a minute, couldn't that word cause offence to someone? Perhaps we should change it for something else'.

Looks like Leinster investigation has found them innocent.
See the irish times web page

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2011/0829/1224303145388.html

Leinster's investigation clears duo of racism allegations

RUGBY: LEINSTER will not be taking any disciplinary action against any of their players after completing an internal investigation into allegations of racism which were made by Northampton prop Brian Mujati after Friday night’s game between the two teams, stating that “there was an exchange during the match between two Leinster players which was misinterpreted”.

Mujati had tweeted on Saturday that Leinster’s prop Heinke van der Meuwe and his fellow South African secondrow Steven Sykes “were calling me a baboon during the scrums last night. Racism is still alive and things don’t change.”

Leinster’s statement concluded: “It was regrettable that any offence was caused. Both clubs have agreed that the matter is now closed . . .”

The Minster of State for Tourism and Sport Michael Ring has awarded a special grant of €424,000 to enable Connacht Rugby to finish vital refurbishment works at its Galway Stadium and bring it up to Heineken Cup standard.

AlynDavies wrote:http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2011/0829/1224303145388.html

Leinster's investigation clears duo of racism allegations

RUGBY: LEINSTER will not be taking any disciplinary action against any of their players after completing an internal investigation into allegations of racism which were made by Northampton prop Brian Mujati after Friday night’s game between the two teams, stating that “there was an exchange during the match between two Leinster players which was misinterpreted”.

Mujati had tweeted on Saturday that Leinster’s prop Heinke van der Meuwe and his fellow South African secondrow Steven Sykes “were calling me a baboon during the scrums last night. Racism is still alive and things don’t change.”

Leinster’s statement concluded: “It was regrettable that any offence was caused. Both clubs have agreed that the matter is now closed . . .”

That is brand new information

Notch wrote:That is brand new information

No need to be sarcastic mate
Pete said there was a article on this incident on the Irish Times website so I added it here so people wouldn't have to go hunting for it.

Thanks Alyn I'm more interested in the Connacht snippet at the end,hope they can make some decent alterations.

Thomond wrote:Thanks Alyn I'm more interested in the Connacht snippet at the end,hope they can make some decent alterations.

Sign... more English tax payers money, going into Irish rugby!
Losing last week was a plot! If you beat England every year, they might catch on and stop the loan!

Alyn,be reasonable. Irish politicians aren't that smart.

What nonsense. Of course it was used to wind him up, its completely disgusting. They have damaged Leinsters reputation.
Hope Mujati shoves you guys backwards like he did in the final...

That will be the game where Saints were crushed by Leinster.

I am sure Leinster will take a repeat any day.

geoff998rugby wrote:That will be the game where Saints were crushed by Leinster.

I am sure Leinster will take a repeat any day.

+1

flankertye wrote:What nonsense. Of course it was used to wind him up, its completely disgusting. They have damaged Leinsters reputation.
Hope Mujati shoves you guys backwards like he did in the final...

Have to echo these sentiments. I'd always want to see an Irish side beat an English side, but if Van Der Merwe and Mujait cross paths again this season I know who I'll be wanting to win that individual battle.

And Mujati was yellowcarded?

Did anyone read his twitter feed? He says that he's in Dublin, but hasn't met Bono or the Corrs or seen anyone drunk on Guinness or met a leprachaun. But that's not racist. Because you can say stuff like that about white people. Of course.

I think you'd have to be incredibly over-sensitive to take offence at that Mick. Certainly I had read that the night before his comments and just had a chuckle to myself.

I didn’t take offense to it.
I just thought it was ironic that he had been posting that before the game.

Yeah, slightly ironic but really... I wouldn't take offence to it. If he posted some comment about 'feicin muck savage paddys' it would slightly more comparable.

I think it'd dangerous to play the "Why can't we be ignorant, too?" game.

Mujatis comments about Bono and the Corrs, well that's not offensive. His comments about people being drunk in the streets has more to do with lazy stereotyping rather than any form of bigotry. That's not a good "you can say that about white people" argument because it's not comparable.

Yes bigotted ignorance can be perpetrated by anyone, regardless of colour. Had he said "Looking forward to smashing a bunch of thick paddies" then I'd agree he had stepped out of line, but he didn't.

So can we start a discussion on what 3 syllable word Leinster should use in their scrums? Im - O - Tep, Im - O - Tep. No idea where I remember this from but would love it to be the chant in the scrum and a chant by the crowd at the same time. Anything is better than 'Heave!' that sounds like someone is having a difficult experience in a toilet.

Out of curiosity. In the game against Melbourne, was the same word being used in the scrum. Sykes and VDM both involved there. Considering it is all Saffa's involved here I find it quite strange, especially with the well document struggles in their native land (to put it mildly). I would have thought all involved would be far more aware about the ramifications than an idiot like me!

Thomond wrote:Alyn,be reasonable. Irish politicians aren't that smart.

Neither are the English ones, so were covered both ways!

I didn't say they were comparible. I was just making an observation.

Mickado is right actually, white people don't tend to play the race card.

Thomond wrote:Mickado is right actually, white people don't tend to play the race card.

Not many white people have had to endure the same hardships because they were seen as sub-human.

greybeard wrote:Not many white people have had to endure the same hardships because they were seen as sub-human.

You've never had to live next door to England... have you?

Thomond wrote:Mickado is right actually, white people don't tend to play the race card.

Not too sure about that. I remember reading a league of the most/least racist. Some of the Eastern European countries were well up there - Greece was one of the worst. England & Republic of Ireland were well down the league of most racist etc.

I'm disappointed with Leinster and how they are handling this. Those two guys should know the connotations of using that expression - it seems underhand as well - they didn't want the rest of the pack to know what the word meant. Great players like Nacewa will think twice about coming to Leinster in the future if they think that kind of stuff is brushed under the carpet. I seem to remember Marcus Horan saying that one of the most upsetting things about being accused of making racist comments was the effect it would have on his team mates like Jim Williams and why he and Munster went all out to disprove the claim (which they did).

greybeard wrote:

Thomond wrote:Mickado is right actually, white people don't tend to play the race card.

Not many white people have had to endure the same hardships because they were seen as sub-human.

We Irish were seen as sub-human by the English. That's was their reasoning as to why we weren't able to run our own country as they didn't believe we were capable of doing it.

...and we frequently play the race card

MBTGOG wrote:

greybeard wrote:

Thomond wrote:Mickado is right actually, white people don't tend to play the race card.

Not many white people have had to endure the same hardships because they were seen as sub-human.

We Irish were seen as sub-human by the English. That's was their reasoning as to why we weren't able to run our own country as they didn't believe we were capable of doing it.

Thats the PR bit - it is more to do with colonisation. England wanted Ireland's natural resources (land to produce food) to feed their industrialised revolution. Well worth having a look at how the Irish were depicted around the mid-1840s.

We're still depicted as being a bit thick, drunk, potatoes, funny accent, etc. but most Irish couldn't give a hoot what people think of them now. It takes a generation or two to get to that stage though.

Comedians have to be very careful these days, There used to be a program in the 70s called Love thy Neighbour some of the things said in it would have the race relations board sweating like a north sea kipper catchers wellie.
When that program was on we thought nothing of it it was just pure fun and both gave as good as they got.
These days though people are taking the race card a bit far there is a massive difference between segregation and using inappropriate words.
I think we are doing more harm than good by highlighting anything and everything that has to do with racial issues doogooders also need to get off their high horse and try living in the real world.
I'm not racist in any shape or form and I'm not the best at conveying my thoughts in type.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_gN7zlpnz8

thebandwagonsociety wrote:So can we start a discussion on what 3 syllable word Leinster should use in their scrums? Im - O - Tep, Im - O - Tep. No idea where I remember this from but would love it to be the chant in the scrum and a chant by the crowd at the same time. Anything is better than 'Heave!' that sounds like someone is having a difficult experience in a toilet.

Could always stick with "in, 2, 3! Drive 2,3!"

I don't think comedians have to be careful at all. No-one is going to go out and report a comedian for making a joke. The only care you have to take is you're funny and don't get it horribly wrong like Michael Richards. Then you're f***ed.

Direct racial abuse is rather different.

In fairness, he does look a wee bit like a baboon tho. Phook im, if he cant take a joke. All white Saffers are insufferable dicks. Even they know that. Leo Cullen looks like Plug from the Bash St Kids. Tomais O Leary looks like a rat. Brian Moore is an ugly basterd. Who gives a phook? Look around ye. The World is falling apart around ye and ye lot are speculating trying to bring down Leinster's name. Pathetic. Example, I hope 1F gets done for being a street thug. How do ye like dem apples?

Get a Life will ye? Get some perpsective.

Doesn't sound like Leinster need any help! Seriously, this has not reflected well on them at all. But life goes on.

Nah, but seriously if Ferris beat that guy up he should go to jail. We're just going to have to wait to see. Doesn't seem too serious though.

Some issues are bigger than rugby, I don't think who you support should really come into it.