Why Wales dont win world cups but England do

First topic message reminder :

The last 24 hours of the rugby world cup has summed up to me why Wales can't win world cups but England can. Today Wales played a off form South African side which was hit with injury mid game. Wale had all the possesion and territory yet struggled to create a try scoring opportunity. Where was this 'Welsh Way' which is meant to be full of attacking running rugby? Wales oftern hark on about tghe fact that if they get 50/50 possesion they will win. Well Wales at 60& of the possesion and still looked blunt in attack.
On the other hand England played very poorly yet got the win which has pretty much booked their place in the 1/4 final. Even if they loose to Scotland chances are they will finish 2nd. However England will almost certainly top their group. Wales are now in trouble, a loss to Samoe or Fiji could signal the end of their world cup.
What would people prefer a scappy uninspired WIN or a gallant loss? Id chhose what England did every time

Enforcer wrote:I was only responding to your request as I actually looked out of interest!!

Fair enough. Now you can see why I asked the question as I don't believe it's a true statement, until proven otherwise.

With respect,only one match has been played by most protagonists,ALL have had wake up calls.
On the strength of todays display,i`d say SA have cause to fear Fiji,and Samoa more than Wales,A disputed penalty decision cost them the match.
How many games have England,based at Dunedin,because it seems death to goal kickers at present.
Every team Rumania and Georgia included ,will be at least trying to keep the score down.
Argentina,at least expect there Captain to be fit for next round,there is a very.Real possibility Argentina beat Scotland,on Saturdays form may well beat England.Bonus points wins against other sides will be vital.
I t is a very real possibility[unlikely,but possible]far from winning the Group.
England would crash out at the pool stage,certainly it is more likely Wales will go through on current form.

When one reads the comment;
'Why wales don't win World Cups but England do"
Does it not suggest that England have won quite a few World Cups?

aucklandlaurie wrote: When one reads the comment;
'Why wales don't win World Cups but England do"
Does it not suggest that England have won quite a few World Cups?

No.

nottins wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote: When one reads the comment;
'Why wales don't win World Cups but England do"
Does it not suggest that England have won quite a few World Cups?

No.

Seems it to me Laurie...it just looked unfinished...i.e- Why wales don't win World Cups but England do...win world cups.

As this doesn't make sense does it?:

"Why wales don't win World Cups but England do...win world cup."

Odd...

Perhaps if they win this one they'll be able to complete the sentence correctly using the plural but then they could have done that in 91 and 07 as well... sooo. Ah but...

what if Wales were to win this world cup...then we really would have ourselves a conundrum?
I mean it would then be something like...

"Why wales do win World Cup but England do...win world cup..."...
hmm...no that wouldnt work either...

Perhaps it should be..."Why Wales won this world cup but England don't win world cups"

A little bit better. Glad we sorted that one out...nothing like a good, thought provoking post ...

I thought the poster was saying or rather trying to say, is that in tough games that both England and Wales had this week end was, that England have the way to tough it out and Wales dont.

When I get a chance I'll list the players that went North Nottins - By the way, they only picked the best as well

I think the point about the players going north wasn't so much the loss of personel but the knock on effect that it had. Most of the players we lost went north in the 80's but we lost their influence on younger players coming through as well as the actual playin staff. Players like:

Terry Holmes
John Devereux
Jiffy
Robert Ackerman
Stuart Evans
Dai Young
Adrian Hadley
Gary Pearce
Paul Moriarty
Scott Quinnel
Alan Bateman
Scott Gibbs

There are plenty more but just that list is basically a massive chunk of top talent taken away from Welsh rugby which slowed the progress.

Had it not been for the archaic WRU at the time we might have held on to these players and still been competative into the 90's. as it was we lost all of our most influential talent and had to rely on players who would never have got a look in otherise. You only have to look at the results to see. Previous to 1988 Wales and England were fairly even and then after that it's all dominated by England. Yes England were massively improved but Wales had also had it's guts ripped out.
Let's not forget that these players weren't even allowed in the stadia to watch games quite often so they had no influence. It's bound to have a knock on effect

These are the internationals of the top of my head who went North - There are some others so will look later

1 – Dai Young, Glyn Shaw
2
3 – Stuart Evans, Mike Griffiths
4
5
6 – Roland Phillips
7 – Paul Moriarty, Richard Webster
8 – Scott Quinnell, Mark Jones
9 – T Holmes, Dai Bishop, Jonathan Griffiths, Kevin Ellis,
10 – Jonathan Davies, Gary Pearce,
11 – Robert Ackerman, John Bevan
12 – Scott Gibbs, Iestyn Harris
13 – Allan Bateman, Steve Ford
14 – Adrian Hadley, John Deveraux
15 - Clive Griffiths

Most of those were the guts taken out of the Wales side from 1988-2000 - Thank god for professionalism I guess

majesticimperialman wrote:I thought the poster was saying or rather trying to say, is that in tough games that both England and Wales had this week end was, that England have the way to tough it out and Wales dont.

If both sides were plying somebody higher than them in the world rankings then maybe there would have been some merit in the argument or if Wales had recently lost to Argentina.

Cymroglan wrote:I would have taken England's group over ours but then again tough games prepare you for the next stage.

cheer up, I'm sure you'll beat Fiji!

cabbagesandbrussels wrote:

Cymroglan wrote:I would have taken England's group over ours but then again tough games prepare you for the next stage.

cheer up, I'm sure you'll beat Fiji!

Its Samoa Im worried about

At least it wont be 100F this time and wingnut running in the wrong directon.

...just thought I ought to say that having seen a much wider range of Welsh posts, I think I was a bit harsh yesterday. There is much more realism about the result than I had initially perceived and I certainly gave Alfie's comments more weight than I should have done.

chuckle. Now you know how the Scots feel!

Fair enough, can I now advise all posters to revert to using the "o" when referring to Cowshot and to remove all references to the "i". In addition, how refreshing for a poster to come back on and say "I might have been wrong" or words to that affect. Well done mate, we are all highly charged and passionate about our teams and we're all entitled to our opinions - The sign of the top man is that on reflection when things have calmed down he can look at things in a more informed manner and perhaps modify what he has written

RubyGuby wrote:These are the internationals of the top of my head who went North - There are some others so will look later

1 – Dai Young, Glyn Shaw
2
3 – Stuart Evans, Mike Griffiths
4
5
6 – Roland Phillips
7 – Paul Moriarty, Richard Webster
8 – Scott Quinnell, Mark Jones
9 – T Holmes, Dai Bishop, Jonathan Griffiths, Kevin Ellis,
10 – Jonathan Davies, Gary Pearce,
11 – Robert Ackerman, John Bevan
12 – Scott Gibbs, Iestyn Harris
13 – Allan Bateman, Steve Ford
14 – Adrian Hadley, John Deveraux
15 - Clive Griffiths

Most of those were the guts taken out of the Wales side from 1988-2000 - Thank god for professionalism I guess

Your original comment was

Wales went on to "enjoy" the worse 15 years in their history between 1990 and 2005 in which we lost over 40 of our best players to Rugby League

You've now listed 24 players over a 12 year in period of time starting 7 years before you originally stated. So, you changed the goalposts somewhat. Of those 24 players, how many came back to play rugby after 1995 ?

Alfie was talking rot. Who would be happier a team was battered for 80mins and still managed a win or a team that had the upper hand for 80mins and let it slip through their fingers at the end? I know which I'd prefer to be.

Arguably we've been missing our best rugby players between 1895 and 1995 so we beat you on that
[Realistically most of the best English players around 1895 were from up north and played league after the split]

Nottins, a number came back in the twilight of their careers, as an example Jonathan Davis returned more or less a shadow of the player that left. Are you not getting this. In Davis, Gibbs and Bateman there was a world class midfield that could have been there for a decade, it was lost along with many other players. Only now are we beginning to get back to close to where we were. Just look at the principle and try not to get bogges down in the stats. The biggest loss out of all those players was Stuart Evans IMO who we lost when he was about 21 an absolute monster of a prop who would have gone on to become a legend in the same vein as the Ponty front row.

you would think 100 years would be long enough to recover from that though...

HammerofThunor wrote:Alfie was talking rot. Who would be happier a team was battered for 80mins and still managed a win or a team that had the upper hand for 80mins and let it slip through their fingers at the end? I know which I'd prefer to be.

Arguably we've been missing our best rugby players between 1895 and 1995 so we beat you on that
[Realistically most of the best English players around 1895 were from up north and played league after the split]

Thunor - you left out the New Zealanders, Saffers and South Sea Islanders you also missed over that period - The cricket team are leading by example now

Bill Beaumont said in his book I think it was his autobiography one that Wales were hit hard when players moved over to league.

you would think 100 years would be long enough to recover from that though...

Hey, this is England you're talking about. We've only just noticed!

As a Wales fan, I'd have taken a scrappy, boring win over a glorious defeat against SA, any day!

Many England fans worried and unhappy with the good form a young Welsh side are starting to show, poor guys.

RuckingFlanker86 wrote:Many England fans worried and unhappy with the good form a young Welsh side are starting to show, poor guys.

Yes you shown so mutch good form and the fact that you are indeed FITTER than the England lads.

But just to mind you your young form side LOST and Englands boring team WON.

majesticimperialman wrote:

RuckingFlanker86 wrote:Many England fans worried and unhappy with the good form a young Welsh side are starting to show, poor guys.

Yes you shown so mutch good form and the fact that you are indeed FITTER than the England lads.

But just to mind you your young form side LOST and Englands boring team WON.

Put it into perspective old fruit. two very different levels of competition

Many England fans worried and unhappy with the good form a young Welsh side are starting to show, poor guys.

Worried? Yes.

Unhappy? Some, no doubt; others can see the bigger picture and know that a strong Welsh side is good for 6N Rugby.

The catch is I know only too well the verbal shelling that will open up across the Severn when Wales do well. I know it spurs us on to bigger and better things, but it's a terrible price we innocent English supporters pay.

Put it into perspective old fruit. two very different levels of competition.
mckay1402

You can only play what is in front of you.

In front of England, Argentina=Win for England.

In front of Wales, South Africa=Win for South Africa.

majesticimperialman wrote:
Put it into perspective old fruit. two very different levels of competition.
mckay1402

You can only play what is in front of you.

In front of England, Argentina=Win for England.

In front of Wales, South Africa=Win for South Africa.

Last time England played SA = emphatic loss by a much larger margin.
Last time Wales played Argie = emphatic win by a much larger margin.

Get the perspective now? Note the first one, it would have been the same on the weekend had our opposition been switched around.

Last time England played SA = emphatic loss by a much larger margin.
Last time Wales played Argie = emphatic win by a much larger margin.

Get the perspective now? Note the first one, it would have been the same on the weekend had our opposition been switched around.

(my bold)

But it never happened...

The way I see it is both sides had the expected result, but Wales played very well and England played badly (some of that was down to excellent Argentinean play; some was entirely our fault).

So what? England often start badly in World Cups. It was appalling to watch - I was in the kitchen for much of the game - but we clawed the victory out somehow. I doubted we would with 20 to go, it was that bad, but we did.

Heck, I don't often predict, but even I'd gone on record here as saying I thought England would win but wouldn't be surprised if was with only half our game functioning. I was overoptimistic on the amount of our game functioning but the point is: bad as the performance was, we were NOT surprised by it, and we WON.

We'll only really know which the better side is when we play eachother again. I reckon we're not far apart either way at present Gods, this place will go ballistic if it's in this WC!

nottins_jones

We are not talking about what happend the last time England played South Africa, or the last time Wales played Argentina.(stop living in the past)

We are talking about this week end that as just past.

This is the here and now.

Cowshot, a meeting between the two in the world cup is certainly possible!

majesticimperialman wrote:nottins_jones

We are not talking about what happend the last time England played South Africa, or the last time Wales played Argentina.(stop living in the past)

We are talking about this week end that as just past.

This is the here and now.

So the weekend is in the past. So why do you talk about the past, then in your next comment tell me not to talk about the past, then go on to talk about the past again? Rugby isn't for you madge. Perhaps watching it is, but when it comes to discussing it with other fans, I don't think so.

Plural?

When did England win their second world cup?

Anyway, I thought it was because England never have to play with incompetent English refs, but Wales do.

A bit slow today Ghost?

by HammerofThunor Yesterday at 6:03 pm

Cups plural? We only did it once.

TheGreyGhost wrote:Plural?

When did England win their second world cup?

Anyway, I thought it was because England never have to play with incompetent English refs, but Wales do.

England get the NZ/SA equivalent to even the equation up though - I guess the difference is England still manage to win games despite the SH incompetence.

nottins_jones wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:
Put it into perspective old fruit. two very different levels of competition.
mckay1402

You can only play what is in front of you.

In front of England, Argentina=Win for England.

In front of Wales, South Africa=Win for South Africa.

Last time England played SA = emphatic loss by a much larger margin.
Last time Wales played Argie = emphatic win by a much larger margin.

Get the perspective now? Note the first one, it would have been the same on the weekend had our opposition been switched around.

Strange logic there nottins_jones when you could well be out of the world cup in less than a week. Still, you can still use past results as a moral victory old fruit.

nottins_jones wrote:
So the weekend is in the past. So why do you talk about the past, then in your next comment tell me not to talk about the past, then go on to talk about the past again? Rugby isn't for you madge. Perhaps watching it is, but when it comes to discussing it with other fans, I don't think so.

The "current" is the weekend just gone, where Wales lost and England won. It is NOT some game played over 8 months ago.

I did a spot of geocaching on the weekend, that was the past. I sure do regret how i wasted my time in the past.

I personally think it might be good for the world cup and for both Wales and england if they could meet in this RWC. That way we can at last give the bragging rights to one of the two nations.

LDCPete wrote:nottin and nottins_jones

I give you fair warning now, you have both had warnings from the admin team about getting involved in bickering with each other. If you decide you want to do so here and now, you are fully aware of what the consequences will be.

OOOOOOooooh hark at her.

You'll never take me alive copper!

Run Forest, run

PJHolybloke wrote:

LDCPete wrote:nottin and nottins_jones

I give you fair warning now, you have both had warnings from the admin team about getting involved in bickering with each other. If you decide you want to do so here and now, you are fully aware of what the consequences will be.

OOOOOOooooh hark at her.

You'll never take me alive copper!

That's no problem, dead will do!

LDCPete wrote:

PJHolybloke wrote:

LDCPete wrote:nottin and nottins_jones

I give you fair warning now, you have both had warnings from the admin team about getting involved in bickering with each other. If you decide you want to do so here and now, you are fully aware of what the consequences will be.

OOOOOOooooh hark at her.

You'll never take me alive copper!

That's no problem, dead will do!

Sorry, why am I being included in this ? I asked why a game over 8 months ago is classed as the present. I didn't make an off topic comment so why do I get a warning ?

Because you're naughty!!

nottins wrote:Sorry, why am I being included in this ? I asked why a game over 8 months ago is classed as the present. I didn't make an off topic comment so why do I get a warning ?

Pssssst oi nottins, psssssst. I'd negotiate if I were you.

You ain't seen me though, right?

PJ - Dudley?

(sorry - off topic I know).

you made another funny,

I suppose it is the relief of winning the weekend?

LDCPete wrote:

PJHolybloke wrote:

LDCPete wrote:nottin and nottins_jones

I give you fair warning now, you have both had warnings from the admin team about getting involved in bickering with each other. If you decide you want to do so here and now, you are fully aware of what the consequences will be.

OOOOOOooooh hark at her.

You'll never take me alive copper!

That's no problem, dead will do!

Learner Detective Constable Pete