Why Wales dont win world cups but England do

First topic message reminder :

The last 24 hours of the rugby world cup has summed up to me why Wales can't win world cups but England can. Today Wales played a off form South African side which was hit with injury mid game. Wale had all the possesion and territory yet struggled to create a try scoring opportunity. Where was this 'Welsh Way' which is meant to be full of attacking running rugby? Wales oftern hark on about tghe fact that if they get 50/50 possesion they will win. Well Wales at 60& of the possesion and still looked blunt in attack.
On the other hand England played very poorly yet got the win which has pretty much booked their place in the 1/4 final. Even if they loose to Scotland chances are they will finish 2nd. However England will almost certainly top their group. Wales are now in trouble, a loss to Samoe or Fiji could signal the end of their world cup.
What would people prefer a scappy uninspired WIN or a gallant loss? Id chhose what England did every time

Who on earth said that!? If someone did it can only have been 1 poster and not expressed by the majority

Actually, thinking about it, it was Alfie. With Pienaar giving him a funny look out of the corner of his eye...

And there have certainly been a few posters on here busily accentuating the positives...

ah, dear Alfie....

well of course we're going to focus on the positives. We'll all still be otherwise!

In all honesty my response to the question would be that since our semi-final appearance in 1987 Wales went on to "enjoy" the worse 15 years in their history between 1990 and 2005 in which we lost over 40 of our best players to Rugby League and struggled come to terms with professionalism. Only over the past few years have we begun to get back to a level we used to enjoy. Instead of having a backline of Roberts Jones, Jonathan Davies, Gibbs, Bateman, Hadley and Deveraux throughout the 90's we had 2nd and 3rd rate players and we just couldn't compete. Dai Young, Stuart Evans, Paul Moriarty, Scott Quinell, the list goes on. Its taken us a while to be able to compete again, however we are gradually getting there and a couple of Grand Slams and some good young players coming through suggest we will be able to compete again in the future. They are the main reasons for our RWC performances from the past.

Does the op mean that possibly Wales need to learn to close games out , whereas England know how to and win even playing poorly .

Wales were very good today and deserved to win , had they got the drop goal at the end they could of closed the game out , maybe they need a bit of a harder mental edge to make sure they take those chances , don't get me wrong England would of been blown of the park by SA today but were they ahead I don't think they would of let the lead slip .
England were very very lucky but watching the game I didn't think they would lose but I was worried for Wales after they took the lead and never felt they could hold on to it

Cowshot,

It's because we are a lovely nation who don't wan't to kick our players when they are down.
But I don't think that England were the best juxtapositional example to use with regards to mental strength in sport, your great RWC record in indeed an exception to the general sporting rule if we are to be brutally honest. If there is anyone in world rugby then it's SA or Aus. This Welshman sees no rivalry or pride in besting the fine folk across the Severn, or any misery in a loss, that pretty much has the odds of a coin toss, and a win against you see me with nothing more than a few empty wry smiles until the next 50-50 encounter, there are bigger fish to fry. I am only interested in SA, NZ & Aus when it comes to the true measurement of rugby quality. We came up short today. If we played every game like that then the record books statisticians will have to look up some new material. But yet again not today. Overwhelming emotion stated once more, anger.

So England win world cups because they can play poorly but still beat a team ranked lower than them.
Wales can't win world cups because they can play well but still lost to a higer ranked team than them.
Right. Good arguement.

So it's all about Gareth Thomas ? voicing his own personal opinion.

As I stated before in the past Welsh players would have been happy with a narrow loss against a Southern Hemisphere side and Gareth Thomas would have been one of them
He no longer is part of the Welsh squad so his opinion counts for nothing and GT has not always seen eye to eye with the WRU.

As for Gatland pointing out the positives and also the negatives what else did you expect him to say? he made it clear enough that he was disappointed in the loss.

If you have a point to make then thats great I enjoy a good debate but at least base your argument using quotes from current players and management rather than ex players who no longer have a clue what's going on in the Welsh camp.

Ok, ok, Welsh supporters are a level headed bunch who have never greeted a false dawn and sent their team off with wild overoptimism.

I have never seen Welsh supporters confidently predicting wins over SH opposition SIX MONTHS before the game, and by the day of the game telling SH supporters, sadly and with great kindness, that their team has no chance whatever. And then losing. EVERY time.

Don't worry Cowshot, they'll learn from it and lets hope they get to play England soon so we can test out your premise. Except we know how that would go because we saw it a few weeks ago

If you are trying to imply that I have said we'll beat SA because our attitude is better I'll thank you not to because I haven't. I wasn't having a go at anyone, and if you are just going to twist my words there is no point trying to discuss anything with you.

As I stated before in the past Welsh players would have been happy with a narrow loss against a Southern Hemisphere side and Gareth Thomas would have been one of them
He no longer is part of the Welsh squad so his opinion counts for nothing and GT has not always seen eye to eye with the WRU.

Ok. Can you then understand how I would believe that since the Wales team have been happy with this sort of result in the past, and have 100+ cap ex players saying they should be happier than the Saffers, and have posters saying how proud they were, I might believe that this was an accurate reflection of Welsh opinion?

Cowshot - didn't England do a lap of honour after losing to the All Blacks last season - People on here are getting hysterical over nothing and in all honesty I get the impression that some non welsh posters are just a little jealous of this performance, otherwise why post. Why are the Irish posters just congratulating Wales on a decent performance. What's this really all about eh?

Oh dear .... A few hours ago a daft post trying to drum up a Welsh v England spat that should have beeen buried has now got 50 plus posts and succeeded.

There is no good argument here and Cowshot, you should go back over the Welsh posts since the game and perhaps you'll realise that none of us are more satisfied with performance over a win. I am pleased with the performance but also gutted that we weren't good enough to win the game. Please try to understand.

Cowshot wrote:



If you are trying to imply that I have said we'll beat SA because our attitude is better I'll thank you not to because I haven't. I wasn't having a go at anyone, and if you are just going to twist my words there is no point trying to discuss anything with you.

No I wasn't implying that I was just suggesting that Wales are better than England. That seems to be the point of your argument so lets just get to it. Wales are better than England

But I don't think that England were the best juxtapositional example to use with regards to mental strength in sport, your great RWC record in indeed an exception to the general sporting rule if we are to be brutally honest.

Well, to be fair to me I came into this to defend the OP who made a reasonable point but looked like getting mugged and perhaps I'd have compared directly with the White Orcs who WERE very self critical and win-focussed.

England's problem then was no forward planning and since then has largely been to expect too much too soon while the senior admin has been playing self indulgent ego puff games with the organisation of a national sport and team. If we ever CAN get organised we're very dangerous.

(Reads next half dozen or so posts.)

Oh Lord. I surrender.

Welsh Rugby is known for its realistic self appraisal and any attempt to suggest otherwise is just wrong. It has no bearing whatever on their not winning a World Cup

In referring to Cowshot, I make an honest mistake and type an "I" instead of an "O" and get moderated. After all, the letters are next to each other on the keyboard

ha offload, you know what you did!

In referring to Cowshot, I make an honest mistake and type an "I" instead of an "O" and get moderated. After all, the letters are next to each other on the keyboard

Try Bullshot instead. I'll get the point!

Oh, and for the record, I'd say England and Wales are pretty nip and tuck at the moment. One plays very well one day and badly the next; so does the other.

Apologies Cowshot,

My intention was not to 'mug'.

If you ever get organised you are indeed dangerous and you have shown far more examples of good organisation in recent decades than us.

Peace.

Cowshot wrote:

In referring to Cowshot, I make an honest mistake and type an "I" instead of an "O" and get moderated. After all, the letters are next to each other on the keyboard

Try Bullshot instead. I'll get the point!

LOL keep that sense of humour cowshOt !!

Rugby dreamer- you're a hard marker.

Looks like a lot of coaches take positives form defeats - just found this one from a recent 10 point defeat -


Martin Johnson keen to extract the positives from Wales defeat Premium Article !
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Having had time to analyse the game, Johnson believes there were plenty of encouraging signs as the red rose gear up for their World Cup opener against Argentina in less than four weeks' time.

"I was disappointed," he said. When we looked at the tape we expected to find some positives and there were.






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ADGRPID:|SERVTYPE:Published Date: 17 August 2011
By Bruce Cunningham

that's my job offload, that's my job

RubyGuby wrote:Cowshot - didn't England do a lap of honour after losing to the All Blacks last season

No.

Didn't Wales players do massive over the top, undignified celebrations after beating England a few weeks ago ? The previous week, didn't the England players congratulate the Welsh players on their performace and were dignified in victory ?

nottins wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:Cowshot - didn't England do a lap of honour after losing to the All Blacks last season

No.

Didn't Wales players do massive over the top, undignified celebrations after beating England a few weeks ago ? The previous week, didn't the England players congratulate the Welsh players on their performace and were dignified in victory ?

No - they said if they'd taken their kicks they would have won easily

RubyGuby wrote:In all honesty my response to the question would be that since our semi-final appearance in 1987 Wales went on to "enjoy" the worse 15 years in their history between 1990 and 2005 in which we lost over 40 of our best players to Rugby League and struggled come to terms with professionalism.

Are you seriously saying that Wales lost players to RL from 1995 to 2005 ? I'm sure I've heard Wales fans bang on about those games against England and NZ in RWC 2003 ?

oh here we go.....

RubyGuby wrote:

nottins wrote:

Didn't Wales players do massive over the top, undignified celebrations after beating England a few weeks ago ? The previous week, didn't the England players congratulate the Welsh players on their performace and were dignified in victory ?

No - they said if they'd taken their kicks they would have won easily

Really ? Which England players said that ?

Your Captain Mike Tindall

You must have forgotten about the lap of honour - here's a copy of seabiscuits thread to enlighten you - Good night

Re: South Africa Wales - match thread
by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Today at 22:20


viewtothegym wrote:
851 South African caps on that field today and Wales have the second youngest team in the tournament,

I think some people need to pull their heads out of their bum and give Gatland some respect he has brought Wales kicking and screaming into the modern pro physical game,

Well done Wales and a big well done to Priestland he really come of age today.

That does sound a bit like the time England did a victory lap of the ground after losing to NZ by a smaller than usual margin

Looks like a lot of coaches take positives form defeats - just found this one from a recent 10 point defeat -


Martin Johnson keen to extract the positives from Wales defeat Premium Article !
Your account has been frozen. For your available options click the below button.

Having had time to analyse the game, Johnson believes there were plenty of encouraging signs as the red rose gear up for their World Cup opener against Argentina in less than four weeks' time.

"I was disappointed," he said. When we looked at the tape we expected to find some positives and there were.

Yesindeedy, all coaches look for positives in defeat. They can always be found. It's just that it feels to me that there has been, at least in the past, a tendency for this search for positives to obscure some of the negatives, such as: losing the game.

Then you get a much capped ex player and some at least posts here seeming to fall into the same old trap of seeing ONLY the positives and perhaps you can see why I was clapping my hand to my forehead and saying, "Not again!" as much about the reaction I saw as the game itself?

chuckle. One of the problems with these sites is that there is so much
Anglo-Welsh wumming that attempts to be serious, especially in wum-prone areas, are often misinterpreted. (On both sides, I might add)

nottins wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:Cowshot - didn't England do a lap of honour after losing to the All Blacks last season

No.

Didn't Wales players do massive over the top, undignified celebrations after beating England a few weeks ago ? The previous week, didn't the England players congratulate the Welsh players on their performace and were dignified in victory ?

Just when this thread was about to die of natural causes a Nottins pops up bearing a witty gift. Thank you.

rugbydreamer wrote:oh here we go.....

Not sure what you mean, I'm just questioning which Welsh rugby players actually went to play RL after rugby went 'open'. Allan Bateman, Scott Gibbs, Scott Quinell and Iestyn Harris all returned to play for Wales at rugby long before 2005. and not long after 1995. So it's not a valid excuse to say that Wales lost loads of players to RL between 1990 and 2005.

I think it was more the point that the coming and going of players between league and union was disruptive and added to how slow Wales took to the professional era, which goes a long way to explain why for large periods of time Wales haven't always been competitive. But whatever, I'm sure you'll see what you want to.

We lost a lot of talent to league, not just the big names that came back to union.

RubyGuby wrote:Your Captain Mike Tindall

Any proof that these players (note the plural, which is what you claimed) actually said that ?

RubyGuby wrote:You must have forgotten about the lap of honour - here's a copy of seabiscuits thread to enlighten you - Good night

Re: South Africa Wales - match thread
by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Today at 22:20


viewtothegym wrote:
851 South African caps on that field today and Wales have the second youngest team in the tournament,

I think some people need to pull their heads out of their bum and give Gatland some respect he has brought Wales kicking and screaming into the modern pro physical game,

Well done Wales and a big well done to Priestland he really come of age today.

That does sound a bit like the time England did a victory lap of the ground after losing to NZ by a smaller than usual margin

You haven't answered the question, so here it is again: Which game, a couple of years ago, did England do a "victory lap of the ground after losing to NZ by a smaller than usual margin" ?

rugbydreamer wrote:I think it was more the point that the coming and going of players between league and union was disruptive and added to how slow Wales took to the professional era, which goes a long way to explain why for large periods of time Wales haven't always been competitive. But whatever, I'm sure you'll see what you want to.

We lost a lot of talent to league, not just the big names that came back to union.

Name 40 Welsh international players that went to RL between 1990 and 2005.

I'm going to reiterate.

Oh, here we go again......

removed

Why haven't the mods warned this user about his personal insult ?

KRD - Because a general cut-out-the-bickering warning was issued instead.

This site is going the way of 606 just the same nonsense all the time.

Who has he insulted ? I'm from North Wales and I took it as a bit of light hearted humour

nottins wrote:

offload wrote:

Just when this thread was about to die of natural causes a northern monkey pops up bearing a witty gift. Thank you.

Why haven't the mods warned this user about his personal insult ?

Perhaps they look at posting history and realise that a few moments of naughty behaviour are insignificant compared to the the years of inflammatory crap you have contributed.

Thank you Cymroglan. I was of course referring to you with deserved affection.
LOL

Can someone provide the list of the 40 Welsh international player lost to RL between 1990 and 2005 ? Dreamer ? RubyGuby ? Anyone ?

Surely if someone makes a claim like that, someone is entitled to ask for the evidence ?

Ldcpete
Appologies.

Not tins is a valuable contributor to this board and I should be more tolerant of his prejudice.

Offload, you had already responded to LDC, why did you feel the need to respond yet again? (Rhetorical question)
Please keep all future comments on topic.

Nottins, I wasn't involved in the conversation but just had a quick look, there doesn't appear to be a complete list that is easy to find online! Perhaps someone else will be able to help.

Enforcer,
Rhetorical or not. I read LDC's post and made one response.

Apologies, I can see that you both posted at the same time. Regardless, going forward please can we stick to rugby talk rather than other posters

Thanks, been a long day. Goodnight.

Enforcer wrote:
Nottins, I wasn't involved in the conversation but just had a quick look, there doesn't appear to be a complete list that is easy to find online! Perhaps someone else will be able to help.

I know you weren't and didn't ask you to comment, I think you've jumped in a bit late I just feel that I'm being threatened with a ban for making an on topic comment asking for someone to back up their earlier comments about those 40 players.

I was only responding to your request as I actually looked out of interest!!