Wilkinson has to go

Just thinking back over the pool games. Flood had a slight drop in form at the back end of the 6N, enough for Johnno to revert to type and bring back Wilko. Wilko was there to do a job, get the scoreboard ticking in tight games. But his percentages have been among the worst (surely only Contepomi is worse in the stats???), and he hasn't got the back 3 in the game. How far does his form have to drop to get Flood back?

Did you watch Scrum V last night by any chance?

I think we should play Flood against France and see how we're doing after 60mins, But the French hate Wilko he can hurt them, I just wish someone would tell him to relax and play his normal game, did he always used to drag his foot before kicking as he seems to do this now?

Apart from his missed kicks...what did Johnny actually do wrong?

He was everywhere on Sat....tackling, running etc. The game was a tough rough mess.

Granted Flood is slightly more creative...

Geordiefalcon Wilkinson was tactically very poor. He had a very negative mindset. It is fine to pick him if he is reliable - e.g. nails his kicks but he didn't.

He went for shots at goal when it was well out of his range. He should have kicked for the corner. The English lineout is strong enough to retain possession most of the time.

His failed drop goal attempt was foolish - England were in the ascendancy in attack, if we kept it up we could have scored.

England should have played with more confidence, if they had I believed we would have won more comfortably.

You are correct the game was a mess. There was no control from England and the halfbacks must take responsibility.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Apart from his missed kicks...what did Johnny actually do wrong?

He was everywhere on Sat....tackling, running etc. The game was a tough rough mess.

Granted Flood is slightly more creative...

The problem with his selection is that it tends to set Englands stall out, they seemed intent on the idea that it was goign to be a tight game and they had to keep the scoreboard ticking even when pressurting the Scottish 22 was a better option. They got their wish, and had a tight contest which didnt suit them as teh team with the inferior pack but superior backs.
Engfland are at their best when they show intent, they can score tries when they..try. Yes you have to mix it up but I feel that with Wilko they go too far toward assuming the game will be tight without trying to put the big scores down and blow good chances to do that. When his kicking percentage is poor too you have to question his inclussion, it puts the team under massive stress which adds to the error count.
When they come up against teams capable of scoring ( they shipped 1 try so far) they will need more than a couple of drop gioals. England dont have a pack they can hide behind this time. They do have a number of backs who can run in tries though.

But yes other aspects of his game were good.

Can't fault JW for getting round the park and he did a lot of very good work in defence. But I do think he made one too many poor choices in the match, his kicking was very poor also and I think this combined to give him a bad mindset, and therefore bad gameplan.

Enter Toby Flood (as yes I'm a Tigers fan so this may be construed as being a little one eyed) and the attitude of the backline, the attacking options that started to open up and the flatter play seemed to come onto the pitch with him. In 10 minutes Toby marshalled England into doing what JW had not for the majority of the game.

I think TF should start against France.

"He went for shots at goal when it was well out of his range. He should have kicked for the corner. The English lineout is strong enough to retain possession most of the time."

But Beshocked...surely this is Moodys responsibility as Captain to control this. I said on sat after the game...he should have stopped Johnny taking the risky kicks...but he didnt.

Geordiefalcon don't worry I wouldn't pick Moody either.

My backrow would be Croft,Wood and Haskell.

Wilkinson has to be blamed for that too though.

Peter seabiscuit it's strange isnt it? England having an underpowered pack and having to rely on their backs.

Agree Metal Tiger. Flood has to start vs France but who would partner him at scrum half?

Yeah i agree that Johnny is at fault also as he knew he was missing the difficult kicks, so should not have taken them...but he's not the captain. The bottom line is Moody IS captain and makes the decisions.

Thats the back row i would go with aswell.

Thing is if you arent taking those kicks and you are going for a more expansive gameplan then Flood is the chap for the job.
The mere sleection of JW generaly sets Englands stall out ...they are expecting a tight game and play for one rather than looking to blow the inferior opposition away they make the game hard for themsleves.

In fairness, we can allow him a couple of bad games after being almost immaculate in the last umpteen years...

Pretty windy as well at the weekend, can't have been easy for kicking.

"In fairness, we can allow him a couple of bad games after being almost immaculate in the last umpteen years..."

Well, to a point....but your only as good as your last game....not room for sentiment in rugby

Fists of Fury wrote:In fairness, we can allow him a couple of bad games after being almost immaculate in the last umpteen years...

Pretty windy as well at the weekend, can't have been easy for kicking.

He hasnt been. Since 2003 hes only had breif spells of being good, some of Englands most inspid performances (ignoring B team tours to the SH) have been with Wilkinson at the helm. Thats why he got dropped for Flood in the first place.
Yep cant have been easy for kicking, so why keep looking for the DGs and long penalties? Why not look to release the backs more? Englands whole game plan was based on a fear of scotland, the ssame mistake they made in the 2010 draw ( wilko at FH) and the 2008 loss ( wilko at fly half)

Personally I thought Wilkinson looked good against Scotland. His place kicking was poor, but not his fault. If you notice, his rate suddenly got better in the second half. It's all to do with kicking toward one end of Eden Park when the NE is blowing. He was putting it up too high and getting blown one way then the other.

He needed to look at Patterson, and Weepu in Wellington, who both drilled it flat.

Another poor Wilkinson performance stands out I believe it was 2008 against the Scots at Murrayfield. Quite possibly one of the most boring games of rugby I have seen. Trust me I have seen a lot of boring matches.

If all the kicks had gone over I am sure this debate wouldnt be happening but yes England should have gone for the percentages at times - hold onto the ball and make Scotland work in defense.

The DG he did get was an absolute beauty, and it was probably the right decision. The one he didnt get was when England were looking much more threatening. Why not try a couple of phases even if you just go back to the DG if things stall. Whats the worse that could happen - its not like Scotland had the pace to be able to take an interception and run the length of the pitcj.

"Trust me I have seen a lot of boring matches"

Thats because your a sarries and England fan.....but i can beat that...im a falcons fan

The DG he got was excellent. But the two he missed were the wrong calls at the time.

Johnnys on fire - leave him alone

TheGreyGhost wrote:Personally I thought Wilkinson looked good against Scotland. His place kicking was poor, but not his fault. If you notice, his rate suddenly got better in the second half. It's all to do with kicking toward one end of Eden Park when the NE is blowing. He was putting it up too high and getting blown one way then the other.

He needed to look at Patterson, and Weepu in Wellington, who both drilled it flat.

You dont think they got the ball changed at half time that helped?

Lostinwales we can speculate all we want. Doesn't change what actually happened. If Wilkinson was kicking reliably we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Geordiefalcon you beat me there!

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

TheGreyGhost wrote:Personally I thought Wilkinson looked good against Scotland. His place kicking was poor, but not his fault. If you notice, his rate suddenly got better in the second half. It's all to do with kicking toward one end of Eden Park when the NE is blowing. He was putting it up too high and getting blown one way then the other.

He needed to look at Patterson, and Weepu in Wellington, who both drilled it flat.

You dont think they got the ball changed at half time that helped?

I agree that Flood has to start with Wilko on the bench. All the comments about wrong kicking options are valid but we don't know where the impetus for those long range attempts came from. The whole approach was too timid and that meant England was always going to rely on him to put points on even when there were better options. MJ should have seen quite early on that Scotland were there to be attacked but didn't make the call. JW and Flood play better when they come on as subs but Flood has to step up now and accept he is 1st choice and manage the game from the outset not because Wilko is off his game but because he is actually the better player. Time to get out of the shadow of his friend and mentor.

Ashton's tactical kicking was better than Wilko's against Scotland. Admittedly, kicking aside he did well. Good running and defensive work but some poor decision making.

Start with Flood, bring Wilko on for the last 20. He's only three penalties away from once again overtaking Dan Carter's record.

wilko can still make one hell of an impact last 20- so yeah id agree with that.

and we are not scotland- just kick for corners every opportunity and stop going for drop goals

I agree the England mindset is 'Its going to be a tight game' and Jonny ensures it is with his conservative 10 man rugby sprinkled with a few missed kicks. England should trust their attack more and play a bit wider especially in the first half. NZ tend to blow teams away with a 15 minute 3 try spell in the first half and then its game over.

If I was MJ I'd start Flood against France. Getting around the park, running well etc is all well and good but what has come of it anyway? Against their toughest opponents yet (Argentina and Scotland) England have managed only a try each, which would effectively hint against good running.

Anyway the kicker's duty first and foremost is to actually kick his goals, that which Wilkinson hasn't been doing.

Toby Flood was Englands number fh untill he had one bad game and then Wilkinson stepped and put England on the winning streak.

Against the French Flood as to start, question is will Wilkinson be fit enough to be on the bench?

If Wilkinson is not going to be playing or on the bench and with Armatage give a one patch ban, who will be the replacement 10?

Personally, I would put Flood in at FH and Wilko at Centre in place of Tindall.

I don't think that Wilkinson's head is in the right place at the moment.
The problem with the ball is in his own mind and I don't think he has got over it.

hang on here guys-this thread and the majority of the posts in it are about JW's kicking -do us fans really want to see games decided on the boot?-I know they sometimes are but when that happens its usually BORING

ah forgot

to be honest, i think after the world cup, he will prob retire from international rugby, especially as he is playing abroad now, and there is that rule coming into place, also think flood is better prospect for the future

You know, I think there must be something amiss with Wilkinson at the moment. No one practises like he does. And he must be practising these same kicks in training on a regular basis. If he was not nailing them on the practise pitch, then I am sure MJ wouldn't play him in the matches. So there must be something not quite right.

On the other hand, in all other aspects of the game, he played pretty well. He ran well, passed well, his tactical kicking was excellent and his defense was typically good. So, this is very strange.

All that said, I would still start Flood against France, though I am not a Flood fan.

I bet the match would look quite a bit different if:
- England stops with all those penalties at the breakdown.
- The England front row s not pushed around as they were by Scotland.

to all you saes guys-I will admit that JW has been stalwart at 10 for you-match winner extrordinaire-but isnt it time he was pensioned off? -he has tackled well in this WC but vision and flair?

I would start with Youngs and Flood, but I wouldn't be scared to make an early substitution or two. Wiggelsworth and Wilkinson on the bench.

If Youngs and Flood tear it up like they did at the front end of the Six Nations, good. We'll take France to pieces and we can bring them off after 60 minutes to rest them. Wilko can kick to corners to pen France in and tackle everything that moves until it doesn't. Brilliant.

If Youngs and Flood have a game like the GS match in Dublin (or Youngs' performance last week) I wouldn't be averse to making a switch in the first 25-30 minutes or so. It may result in a change of game plan and a hard fought, slower paced game, but if Plan A hasn't worked then we should immediately turn to Plan B.

If we then get to the semi-final, we go with whatever plan got us there. If Youngs and Flood tore it up, give them the shirts again. If Wigglesworth and Wilkinson bailed them out, then give them the starting spots. If both plans failed then we don't deserve to be in the semi-final, and will rightfully be on the plane home.

As I said matey, I thought he was fine outside of the kicking woes. I do think Flood should start, for a number of reasons. But having Jonny on the bench ready to come in is needed. if Jonny didn't have the kicking duties, I don't think anyone would be screaming he needs to go.

Interestingly, MJs plan for the Scotland match was to have Wilko at 10 and Flood at 12 once Tindall went off. If Jonny didn't get hurt, thats how the match would have ended. I wonder who would have taken those last kicks.

robbo277 wrote:I would start with Youngs and Flood, but I wouldn't be scared to make an early substitution or two. Wiggelsworth and Wilkinson on the bench.

If Youngs and Flood tear it up like they did at the front end of the Six Nations, good. We'll take France to pieces and we can bring them off after 60 minutes to rest them. Wilko can kick to corners to pen France in and tackle everything that moves until it doesn't. Brilliant.

If Youngs and Flood have a game like the GS match in Dublin (or Youngs' performance last week) I wouldn't be averse to making a switch in the first 25-30 minutes or so. It may result in a change of game plan and a hard fought, slower paced game, but if Plan A hasn't worked then we should immediately turn to Plan B.

If we then get to the semi-final, we go with whatever plan got us there. If Youngs and Flood tore it up, give them the shirts again. If Wigglesworth and Wilkinson bailed them out, then give them the starting spots. If both plans failed then we don't deserve to be in the semi-final, and will rightfully be on the plane home.

Now that's what I am talking about. Absolutely agree (ergo you must be brilliant!).