Better Than Wilkinson?

With England now heir apparent for the 2015 World Cup, being the form northern hemisphere team and only side to have consistently beaten SH opposition and the All Blacks; and given that winning world cups at home is a mere formality; and the likelihood of a Lions victory with Owen Farrell at the helm... Then should these two likelihood a play out; leaving Farrell with both a Lions series win and World Cup to his name, would he then be seen as a better fly half than Wilkinson?

I dont think Farrell is any wheare near as good as Wilkinson. Wilkinson did not have so many off days under pressure that Farrell has had.

Farrell (COULD be as good as Wilkinson in time) but at the moment NO. he is not.

Freddie Burns might be as good if not better than Wilkinson, again in time. But like Farrell as a lot too learn before he can be classed in the same mould.

Wilkinson has won WORLD payer of year. He was widely recognised as th best player in world and one of the greatest fly halves to have played the game.The big 3 of Australia, South Africa and the all blacks were petrified of him as he marshalled England to 14 CONSECUTIVE wins against them. I would be surprised if any playe in the northern hemisphere within the next 20 years got close to wilko.

GloriousEmpire wrote:With England now heir apparent for the 2015 World Cup, being the form northern hemisphere team and only side to have consistently beaten SH opposition and the All Blacks; and given that winning world cups at home is a mere formality; and the likelihood of a Lions victory with Owen Farrell at the helm... Then should these two likelihood a play out; leaving Farrell with both a Lions series win and World Cup to his name, would he then be seen as a better fly half than Wilkinson?

wow mate, you are making some wild assumptions there.

Heir apparent to the RWC throne?
Consistently beating SH opponents?
Consistency suggests a 75% win ratio, theirs are 3 wins and a draw out of 18 matches in the last 5 years.
Owen Farrell at the helm? Do you have inside info?
Lions are going to win? Thanks for saving spoiling the result, now I don't have to watch it.

Biltong wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:With England now heir apparent for the 2015 World Cup, being the form northern hemisphere team and only side to have consistently beaten SH opposition and the All Blacks; and given that winning world cups at home is a mere formality; and the likelihood of a Lions victory with Owen Farrell at the helm... Then should these two likelihood a play out; leaving Farrell with both a Lions series win and World Cup to his name, would he then be seen as a better fly half than Wilkinson?

wow mate, you are making some wild assumptions there.

Heir apparent to the RWC throne?
Consistently beating SH opponents?
Consistency suggests a 75% win ratio, theirs are 3 wins and a draw out of 18 matches in the last 5 years.
Owen Farrell at the helm? Do you have inside info?
Lions are going to win? Thanks for saving spoiling the result, now I don't have to watch it.

You do know who the OP is, don't you?

No.
If England are going to win the WC,then either Farrell needs to improve his passing or England need to pick Burns.
And Wilko may yet add a Lions winners medal to his trophy cabinet.

Griff wrote:

Guys, we are not permitted to accuse people of being ghosts.

How about the ghost's alter-ego then-Dog?

By your logic... given Stephen Donald has played and kicked the winning penalty in the RWC final, by definition he is a better player then Dan Carter who has achieved neither.

Also, Mike Tindall has a RWC winners medal... Brian O'Driscoll hasn't.

Wilkinson good player but not the god that the English press makes him out to be . if Dan carter was English he be a knight by now .

if Dan carter was English he be a knight by now ..

if we sidestep the issue about how much influence the English press has over the honours list, surely DC has as much chance as JW to get a knighthood - it's available to all commonwealth members isn't it?

I bet if the NZ Prime Minister had a quiet word DC would get something - however, its usually the gaffers and Generals/Admirals that get the Knighthoods, the plebs and front line soldies get lesser value trinkets.

(Got to keep us in our place you know)

rugby is not a game of individuals regardless... its a team sport. Had Dan Carter, Jonny Wilkinson or Richie McCaw been Italian or Canadian it wouldn't have mattered how good they were, they wouldn't have won an silverware or received any personal awards for performance either i.e. IRB player of the year.

Great or average.... he was part of a very special team and a vital part in that. As time goes on and the feat is not repeated people will slowly realise how unique it was.

In 50 years time I very much doubt they number of countries who have won the RWC will include anyone else who hasn't won it already.... even with all their conveyor belt talent, seeing France putting in back to back performances to win a RWC looks unlikely.

Agree with FA, Johnny boy was a standout player, it isn't about whether you liked him or not, it isn't about wanting to highlight his perceived weaknesses, he meant a lot to England when he played for them and during his career he was rarely challenged by any other player for his position.

It was about what he was great or good at.

He was a great player.

Biltong wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:With England now heir apparent for the 2015 World Cup, being the form northern hemisphere team and only side to have consistently beaten SH opposition and the All Blacks; and given that winning world cups at home is a mere formality; and the likelihood of a Lions victory with Owen Farrell at the helm... Then should these two likelihood a play out; leaving Farrell with both a Lions series win and World Cup to his name, would he then be seen as a better fly half than Wilkinson?

wow mate, you are making some wild assumptions there.

Heir apparent to the RWC throne?
Consistently beating SH opponents?
Consistency suggests a 75% win ratio, theirs are 3 wins and a draw out of 18 matches in the last 5 years.
Owen Farrell at the helm? Do you have inside info?
Lions are going to win? Thanks for saving spoiling the result, now I don't have to watch it.

It's just our old fave GGhost taking the pish. You know he scours the broadsheets, scoffing at any England rugby related article. However, if Farrell has a good lions tour and if Burns gets better, they'll both do well for England leading up to and including the next WC.

I far hope Burns is at 10 than Farrell come 2015...infact come the next Ai's....

jimmyinthewell68 wrote: if Dan carter was English he be a knight by now .

2 rugby Britons have been knighted - Sir Ian and Sir Clive
7 rugby NZers have been knighted.

We give knighthoods a lot more freely to our rugby stars

If England had the record of the All Blacks I think they would have given out more mind.

dallym wrote:

jimmyinthewell68 wrote: if Dan carter was English he be a knight by now .

2 rugby Britons have been knighted - Sir Ian and Sir Clive
7 rugby NZers have been knighted.

We give knighthoods a lot more freely to our rugby stars

Yep. And Richie McCaw turned one down last year too. Though I'm pretty sure we haven't knighted any soccer team managers by way of contrast

Knighting a guy when still playing is madness, I'm sure he would have accepted it once retired. He would have got nothing but grief from his fellow professionals. I could imagine the boks polishing their studs with the anticipation of them meeting an official member of the British colonial establishment.

fa0019 wrote:Knighting a guy when still playing is madness, I'm sure he would have accepted it once retired. He would have got nothing but grief from his fellow professionals. I could imagine the boks polishing their studs with the anticipation of them meeting an official member of the British colonial establishment.

That's about what McCaw said. A bit different from cricket - on his final tour of England scoreboards found room to put "Sir Richard Hadlee" up instead of just "Hadlee"

No lions Series victory in 4 attempts speaks volumes. I think Farell will be recognised as a true legend and eclipse Wilkinsons standing when England claim the trophy in 2015. Much has been made of wilkinson "winning everything" but his retisence to have another crack speaks volumes to me of a defeated personality who has given up hope - I think Farrell has shown he is mentally stronger than that! Just my opinion.

Are you using glue?

Biltong, don't bite his obvious Farrell bait.
This has 'WUM' printed through it like seaside rock.

If Farrell plays a big part in the test series Australia might as well nail down the current trophy in their cabinet.

fa0019 wrote:If Farrell plays a big part in the test series Australia might as well nail down the current trophy in their cabinet.

Why? Farrell is a good player. What are his weaknesses?

gregortree wrote:Biltong, don't bite his obvious Farrell bait.
This has 'WUM' printed through it like seaside rock.

Mate there isn't much else to comment on, so I have to make a comment here and there just to alleviate my withdrawal symptoms.

Delusion is running wild on V2 at the moment.

Australia will score points... one thing they are good at is converting opportunities.

Where will the Lions score points from if Farrell plays for instance? He can't run a backline, and his England side looked toothless try wise for much of the 6N.

In terms of taking his kicks... will that be enough for the lions? Can the Lions win from just Farrell kicking 5/6 penalties for 2 out of 3 matches?

and even then can we rely on him? The only match I've seen him actually composed under pressure was in Dublin this year... the rest of the time he's faltered (MS, Port Elizabeth etc) or had someone else pulling the strings.

Farrell has a good England team around him with the ability to score.... just doesn't happen. You won't score off a garry owen.... not with Beale or Folau at 15... more likely AUS will score off them themselves.

fa0019 wrote:Australia will score points... one thing they are good at is converting opportunities.

Where will the Lions score points from if Farrell plays for instance? He can't run a backline, and his England side looked toothless try wise for much of the 6N.

In terms of taking his kicks... will that be enough for the lions? Can the Lions win from just Farrell kicking 5/6 penalties for 2 out of 3 matches?

and even then can we rely on him? The only match I've seen him actually composed under pressure was in Dublin this year... the rest of the time he's faltered (MS, Port Elizabeth etc) or had someone else pulling the strings.

Farrell has a good England team around him with the ability to score.... just doesn't happen. You won't score off a garry owen.... not with Beale or Folau at 15... more likely AUS will score off them themselves.

The jury is out on Farrell but I dont think its fair to say he cant run a backline just because the England backs as always are dreadful most of the time. Lets not forget though Farrell was instrumental in England's recent annilation of New Zealand and he has done enough in other matches to have earned respect. He may not be the finished article but Im confident he will play his part well whatever that may be.



Garryowen is one word. Its a town in Munster. Sorry to be pedantic.

GloriousEmpire wrote:No lions Series victory in 4 attempts speaks volumes. I think Farell will be recognised as a true legend and eclipse Wilkinsons standing when England claim the trophy in 2015. Much has been made of wilkinson "winning everything" but his retisence to have another crack speaks volumes to me of a defeated personality who has given up hope - I think Farrell has shown he is mentally stronger than that! Just my opinion.

Will it be his breathtaking pace and running ability ball in hand....or will it be his mesmerising passing...?

If Farrell proves to be instrumental in the winning of the Lions Series and does the same in the 2015 RWC then yes he may very well be as good/better than Wilkinson.

However he has done neither at the time of writing.

fa0019 wrote:Knighting a guy when still playing is madness.

Be fun to see The Queen or Prince Charles chasing him round Twickers waving that sword though.

Thats the thing, he's not going to suddenly blow us away with some Stephen Larkham inspired game management. He may be able to contribute, keep the game close etc but to win 2 out 3 would be near impossible with Farrell at the helm. What the lions need is a sure thing... not a maybe.

I watched the 1st Test v Australia from 2001 last night and it was amazing how confident and assured Wilkinson. He was only 20 years old heading out on that Lions Tour but just seemed so calm and mature in everything he did.

Biltong wrote:Agree with FA, Johnny boy was a standout player, it isn't about whether you liked him or not, it isn't about wanting to highlight his perceived weaknesses, he meant a lot to England when he played for them and during his career he was rarely challenged by any other player for his position.

It was about what he was great or good at.

He was a great player.

well said!

JW was a far more complete player though in 01 then Farrell is now... he'd been to a RWC, was 3 season into his career, had already had success in the SH etc. Expecting him to do the same is unlikely.

The 01 side was also the best lions squad I've seen in terms of talent (well from the mid 80s onwards... 83 and before was before my time). The Lions don't have that sort of calibre this time around.

Sexton is good enough to do a job with the right blend of players. You don't need to be the very very best at pivot but you need to be amongst them to win these types of series.

The form northern hemisphere team

fa0019 wrote:JW was a far more complete player though in 01 then Farrell is now... he'd been to a RWC, was 3 season into his career, had already had success in the SH etc. Expecting him to do the same is unlikely.

The 01 side was also the best lions squad I've seen in terms of talent (well from the mid 80s onwards... 83 and before was before my time). The Lions don't have that sort of calibre this time around.

Sexton is good enough to do a job with the right blend of players. You don't need to be the very very best at pivot but you need to be amongst them to win these types of series.

Firstly I think its would be more relevant to point out than England are more unlikely to win series now than in '01 so it isnt really fair to conclude that Wilko is a much better player then than Farrell is now because he is unlikely to experience a series win.

However, back then Wilko was a ferocious tackler, had great hands and a great kicker and could even sniff out a gap (rugby wise). He almost had it all but really he was only at his peak for a very short time and hasnt been that good in a long long time.

Farrell offers more than Wilko does now IMO.

Yes but also...as i keep pointing out, JW actually did have a good running game and creativity...look at his early years with England (and Falcons), some of his running and breaks were cracking...far more than Farrell can do...it just seemed that as the team grew he seemed to sit back as the controller, allowing Greenwood, Robinson etc etc to do all the flair stuff...

I hope Farrell does come good...but i just see Burns as a far better player player...who will get a backline moving, whilst also possessing the ability to run and make breaks himself.

I assume you meant to say the Lions less unlikely to win then in 01 right? I agree.

Farrell's (or Sexton's) job on paper is a tougher assignment then those who left on the plane in 01.
Injuries, how the group gets together may change this however as we've seen in the past.

fa0019 wrote:I assume you meant to say the Lions less unlikely to win then in 01 right? I agree.

Farrell's (or Sexton's) job on paper is a tougher assignment then those who left on the plane in 01.
Injuries, how the group gets together may change this however as we've seen in the past.

No. You had said that going into the '01 series wilko had already tasted success down under. I think England had won a few matches in the SH. I dont subscribe to the belief that the '01 squad is much better than the squad now. The best players in the '01 squad were probably better than the best players in this squad now maybe but overall the quality is around the same or maybe only slightly behind the '01 squad.

the wallaby squad isnt as good clearly though than the side that were world champions in '01.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yes but also...as i keep pointing out, JW actually did have a good running game and creativity...look at his early years with England (and Falcons), some of his running and breaks were cracking...far more than Farrell can do...it just seemed that as the team grew he seemed to sit back as the controller, allowing Greenwood, Robinson etc etc to do all the flair stuff...

I hope Farrell does come good...but i just see Burns as a far better player player...who will get a backline moving, whilst also possessing the ability to run and make breaks himself.

He did alright, no doubt about it but it didnt last very long.

I was going to post after the BBs game that surely nobody could think so after a poor showing. But then I caught the T14 final Nd there's not much to pick between them !

GunsGerms wrote:No. You had said that going into the '01 series wilko had already tasted success down under. I think England had won a few matches in the SH.

In 2001, England had only the one win against South Africa in 2000 away from home. We had beaten Australia and the Boks at Twickenham but we didn't tour against the Big 3 again until 2003.

Lets just hit the nail on the head after watching both 10s on Saturday grows balls and drops them both only good thing farrell did good was take a punch like a man, all sexton did was a good pass for AWJ try.

But for the people pinning their hopes on farrell to take Wilkinson place running the English back line then more fool you.
England won't win the WC and id be shocked if they win a 6 nations

England have been in 2 of the 3 finals where the WCup has been held in the NH, betterd only by Oz who have won 2 and SA 1 so theyve a very good chance of repeating that effort or winning it... but not for any of the dribble reasons in this post.

And theyd better find a better 10, or a better Farrell, than Farrell, to do so.

So far Farrell is comparable to Wilkinson in one area alone - goal-kicking. A prime Wilkinson, aside from the boot, could also tackle, run and generally orchestrate the backs in a world class manner. Farrell has yet to demonstrate that he can match these attributes, although being as young as he is I won't try to conclude on his abilities as of yet.

As for the achievement factor... will Stephen Donald go down as a superior player to Dan Carter? After all he did kick what ultimately turned out to be the WC-winning points (and might I emphasise that the irony continues to tickle me even to this day)!

Even today Wilkinson continues to complement teams he plays for. Thus far the opposite is arguable in Farrell's case, teams he plays for complement him.

Knowsit17 wrote:So far Farrell is comparable to Wilkinson in one area alone - goal-kicking. A prime Wilkinson, aside from the boot, could also tackle, run and generally orchestrate the backs in a world class manner. Farrell has yet to demonstrate that he can match these attributes, although being as young as he is I won't try to conclude on his abilities as of yet.

As for the achievement factor... will Stephen Donald go down as a superior player to Dan Carter? After all he did kick what ultimately turned out to be the WC-winning points (and might I emphasise that the irony continues to tickle me even to this day)!

Even today Wilkinson continues to complement teams he plays for. Thus far the opposite is arguable in Farrell's case, teams he plays for complement him.

In terms of world cups? Absolutely...DC has been AWOL twice on the biggest stage. I pin no hopes on DC carrying us in 2015 if he kept breaking down in his prime during the latter stages of the tournament.

GloriousEmpire wrote:With England now heir apparent for the 2015 World Cup, being the form northern hemisphere team and only side to have consistently beaten SH opposition and the All Blacks; and given that winning world cups at home is a mere formality; and the likelihood of a Lions victory with Owen Farrell at the helm... Then should these two likelihood a play out; leaving Farrell with both a Lions series win and World Cup to his name, would he then be seen as a better fly half than Wilkinson?

being the form northern hemisphere team... Remind me what was the final score against the last NH side England played.... Yep, that makes England the form NH side ...