Thoughts on last night's results?

First off I will point out that I wasn't able to catch the fights last night, but nonetheless after catching the results I'm interested in what peoples thoughts are on a couple of things.

Firstly, how does Martinez's stoppage of the previously undefeated Dzinziruk affect his standing in the pound-for-pound rankings? His opponent had been fancied by some to give Maravilla a stern test, and had some fans and pundits stating their belief that Martinez couldn't take Dzinziruk lightly. True, Dzinziruk was moving up from 154, but as Martinez himself is no career middleweight I don't think that should be particularly relevant. Instead of being pushed to the wire though, Martinez dropped his opponent several times on the way to the stoppage.

Secondly, is Cotto genuinely on the up-and-up since his loss to a Filipino fighter whose name escapes me, or is he being matched carefully by uncle Bob in order to validate a rematch to the aforementioned one-sided loss, among other possible match-ups? Since embarking on his second comeback Cotto has first beaten Yuri Foreman, who last night lost his second consecutive fight and was considered to be a weak champion prior to his loss to Cotto-he'd not fought anyone at the top level, and with a low KO percentage was (rightly so) not expected to trouble Cotto unduly.

Last night's fight against Mayorga was somewhat hyped as can be expected, and the hype was added to by Mayorga's carnival antics, but if we look past the melodrama Mayorga's record going into the fight was average at best. He'd gone 3-3 in his last six fights, having lost against the better names and having fought only six times in as many years. Add to these factors Mayorga's age and we have an opponent Cotto was expected to beat.

My question is this: is Cotto genuinely back in the saddle and returned from the brink, or is he merely damaged goods being carefully packaged in order to fool the less discerning members of the public? Personally I feel it's a case of the latter, as Mr Arum continues to fleece the fans still more, but what do you think?

Thoughts on last nights result?

Well i didn't get laid, had way too many and now don't know where i am.. Other than that though cracking night.

As for the boxing, Cotto hasn't proved much as Mayorga hasn't had a meaningful win (let alone active fight) for god knows how long.

Foreman got smashed, which gives an indication of where Cotto is as he was still able to land against him on one knee.

Martinez seems to be getting better and better, really want to see him go north to 168... and let the fun and games begin

Another great win for Martinez. There's a strong arguement to make him p4p no2 IMO. Dzinzurek was a good opponent and the toughest available, Sergio even gave up his title to fight him rather than the easy mandatory option. This guy is really in hus prime now. The only problem he has is the lack of quality at 160lb. There's been talk of him fighting manny or pbf but realistically he's too big for either and would have to put himself at a weight disadvantage to make a fight with them. There's good fights available at 168lb, but that depends if he's able to carry his skills and power up to the weight well enough. If he can I'd like to see him face Bute - who IMO is overrated, and the S6 winner in what would be a mega fight.

As for Cotto, I still believe his best days are gone. Foreman and a faded mayorga are easy opponents and I get the feeling he is being well matched by Arum in order to soften the fans up for either manny 2 or margarito 2. A fight with marg I could accept. A fight with manny would be yet another joke in what is turning into a run of poor, in-house matchmaking in mannys career.

I'm a big Cotto fan but I'll keep it real. He looks a bit small at the weight! Mayorga looked a lot bigger (and stronger) than him.

As for his performance, I think Cotto did very well. He was bouncing on his feet and boxing on his toes. He chose to plant his feet at the right times. He was moving his head to slip Mayorga's wild shots which were coming at surprising speeds - he showed good defensive skills. And his punch resistance looks good - he absorbed a few big shots from Mayorga.

I don't think it's the same Cotto who beat Mosley - he was in his absolute prime then - but he's not far off. Cotto still has a few good wins left in him and I'd tip him to beat Margarito in a rematch to seal what I think has been a great career.

If it's any consolation coxy I wound up in a place which makes Phoenix Nights look like Ibiza, although given THAT I was fine with not getting laid.

It'd certainly be interesting to see if Martinez could make an impression at 168, or whether he'd find, like Abraham seems to have done, that he's not quite big enough for the weight.

Cotto I fear is simply another source of revenue for Arum, and will be sacrificed as soon as the time is right. Seems that's becoming par for the course for Top Rank guys...

The hypocrisy of some British fans makes me sick.

I'm still a little bit torn on Cotto. I wouldn't say he's totally past it, but I think that many in his team (and perhaps, very quietly, maybe even himself) are glad that he's found a division (Light-Middleweight) which isn't exactly brimming with talent in which to rebuild after the Pacquiao hammering he received. Mayorga is a name these days, not a lot more, and to be honest it's hard to gauge too much from this win as Cotto, in my eyes, was always expected to close the show inside the distance against him. A good win for Cotto, one which keeps him in the reckoning for a top fifteen pound for pound spot, but I'm reluctant to say he's back to his former glory.

As for Martinez, well once again he's surprised me. I thought he'd win, but it's how he won that has once again impressed. Dzinziruk isn't a marquees name but from what I've seen of him he was a fairly tricky customer who gave away very little - and last night Martinez made him look like a journeyman. Going in to last night I felt it was impossible to have Martinez outside of a top four pound for pound list, and I'm sure most will agree that is exactly where he stays on this Sunday morning.

**a division (Light-Middleweight) which isn't exactly brimming with talent

With guys like Sergio Martinez, Angulo, Cintron, Martirosyan, Alvarez, Bundrage, Margarito .....

Go back to school.

Sam gets very touchy about Miguel, so be careful what you say lads...

hitmansam

You're clutching at straws, LMW isn't brimming with serious world class operators.

154/160 are weak compared to the divisions around it, how many of those fighters are near the pound for pound lists?

LWW - Khan, Bradley
WW - Pacman, FMJ, Berto
LMW - Nobody
MW - Martinez
SMW - Take your pick

And Martinez is a middleweight now, so please don't class him as a LMW when his last 2 fights have been north of the division.

So hang on a second Khan is world class but Alvarez isn't!?
And Berto? Are you serious?
Martinez can fight at 154 and in called-out Cotto for a fight at 154lbs in presser after the fight.

Sam, please tell me you're not comparing Alvarez to Khan? How many top 5 LMWs has he faced? Has Khan faced a top 5 LWW? Yes, he has - please give it a rest on that matter unless you fancy showing yourself up - the two aren't comparable.

And yeah, the same stands for Berto - He's rated in a stacked division, please stop with how LMW is stacked because it's one of the weakest divisions around.

And as i said before i didn't see the presser, please provide me with a link to the article you've read so i can have a look myself. And Cotto would get anhialated by Martinez, no doubt you'll disagree but i'd suggest you put the fanboy element aside and look at it in black and white - he'd get murdered.

From what I've have seen of him, Alvarez is nothing special.

Looks as if hitmansam is the Southpaw_20 of 606v2; aka, a clown with a chip on his shoulder who embarrasses himself with alarming regularity.

cox, you're right on that one. He did KO Baldomir but I'm not sure he was ranked top-10. But in terms of world class, Alvarez is a better fighter than Khan - hands down.

Berto's ranked in stacked division? And who in the division has he actually beat? He's fighting a jr.welter in his next fight.

Listen mate, I'm a Cotto fan but I'll keep it real. I wouldn't want to see Cotto fight Martinez because it's a very tough fight. I'd rather see Cotto rematch Margarito and retire. Cotto has had his share of tough fights.

But don't say he'd get murdered. These guys put their lives on the line for a (1) your entertainment, and (2) a living. Show some respect.

Martinez looked exceptional. I expected him to win but the manner of the victory was very impressive.
I would now have him at No.2 P4P due to his recent performances and Mayweather's inactivity.
Personally, I don't think he should move up to 168.
Instead, I would like to see him fight Pirog who imo is a extremely legitimate and dangerous threat at that weight.
Martinez-Pirog could easily turn out to be the FOTY.
If not Pirog, Martinez should attempt to force a fight with Sturm (unlikely, I know).

I'm not convinced how effective Miguel Cotto is at 154. He did appear somewhat small against Mayorga. I think he should concentrate on avenging the Margarito loss and than consider hanging up his gloves. He's had a great career and there is little else for him to achieve.

Classy Chris

Martinez needs an opponent - and I agree with Sugar-boy - I reckon that Bute is an excellent next option. There's Pirog and Jacobs around the weight - but they're both novices and I wouldn't bother.

On another note - please keep it civil lads - I ache from training and I'm making weight - so I'll be grumpy when moderating today.

Khans beaten 3 top 10 ranked guys in his division whereas Alvarez has yet to even face one.

J BENSON
good to see someone talking sense

hitmansam wrote:Classy Chris

Delicious irony.

So what? At this stage, does beating Kotelnik and going life and death with Maidana prove he's actually a better operator than Alvarez?

88chris05: Going in to last night I felt it was impossible to have Martinez outside of a top four pound for pound list, and I'm sure most will agree that is exactly where he stays on this Sunday morning.
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To be honest chris I'm struggling to find an arguement to keep mayweather at no2 at the moment. His court case has been postponed yet again - now put back to April. Will we even see him in a ring again, nevermind this year? Taking him out of the equation I'd have to have a top ten looking something like:

Pacquiao
Martinez
Donaire
Marquez
Wladimir
Wongjongkam
Bradley
Juanma
Hopkins
Froch/John

Think Cotto would get a beat down against Martinez, they are operating at different levels right now.

Give over Hitmansam.... Boxers dont put their lives on the line for our entertainment, they do it for money, much in the same way F1 drivers do it for money..

As for Cotto, he is damaged good IMO. Arum is pulling his usual tricks and I would be surprised to see a rematch with Manny, career suicide if you ask me.

And comparing Alvarez to Khan is laughable, and I hate Khan.

hitmansam wrote:So what? At this stage, does beating Kotelnik and going life and death with Maidana prove he's actually a better operator than Alvarez?

100% it does. Alvarez almost lost it to Cotto's brother who is a household name only in the Cotto household.

Alvarez I'd put below Khan but given he's even younger than Khan there's plenty of time for change. He really hasn't faced anyone at the top level though, and beating a WW for the vacant LMW belt is a fine example of that.

Sam, I hope you weren't referring to me in your earlier comment about British fans.

hitmansam wrote:So what? At this stage, does beating Kotelnik and going life and death with Maidana prove he's actually a better operator than Alvarez?

Well, actually - yes.

I rate Alvarez - he's a great prospect. However - thus far - Khan has beaten Kotelnik (champ, who promptly beat/went life and death with the hugely rated Alexander) and Khan then beat Maidana - top 5 LWW.

Alvarez has beaten big bro' Cotto, a fat Baldomir and an old N'dou. He's coming along nicely but to say he should be ranked above Khan is ludicrous.

Cool. It's all about opinions! Have a nice day everyone.
Over & out.

azania wrote:

hitmansam wrote:So what? At this stage, does beating Kotelnik and going life and death with Maidana prove he's actually a better operator than Alvarez?

100% it does. Alvarez almost lost it to Cotto's brother who is a household name only in the Cotto household.

Nicely put. Wasn't he blown up in weight too?

BALTIMORA wrote:Alvarez I'd put below Khan but given he's even younger than Khan there's plenty of time for change. He really hasn't faced anyone at the top level though, and beating a WW for the vacant LMW belt is a fine example of that.

Sam, I hope you weren't referring to me in your earlier comment about British fans.

And a very poor WW in world terms. An operator just below euro level imo. Totally meaningless beating him at a weight he is unatural to.

hitmansam wrote:Cool. It's all about opinions! Have a nice day everyone.
Over & out.

Nevermind. Opinions are like rear-ends. We all have one.

If Cotto fights Angulo, Alvarez or Martinez - he's not exactly taking the easy route. Moving up and winning a LMW title against a lineal champ and a defence is a decent recent showing. Thought Cotto boxed impressively last night, he used the right tactics. adapted to his opponent and was spot on. He's not particularly old and could compete in more top fights imo. Cotto has taken on Margarito, Pacquiao and a host of other champs over the last few years, he doesn't need to be fighting Manny Pacquiao's every week.

Didn't really see a great deal in Dzinziruk. He's good at what he does, which ultimately isn't that much. Useful and tricky, but a fighter with the all round boxing skills of Martinez shouldn't really struggle with him. Still good performance by Martinez, he continues to go from strength to strength.

Martinez should stop calling out the lighter weights and concentrate on his own division.

If he feel they are no more challenges at middle then move up, if he really does want to fight someone at the lighter weights then move down.

Impressive victory by Martinez, I still have him at no.3 on my list but it very close.

D4thincarnation wrote:Martinez should stop calling out the lighter weights and concentrate on his own division.

If he feel they are no more challenges at middle then move up, if he really does want to fight someone at the lighter weights then move down.

Impressive victory by Martinez, I still have him at no.3 on my list but it very close.

Not sure - Hagler got away with calling out the fab 4 for years whilst never moving up to face Spinks @ LHW.

Besides - Martinez offers something for both Mayweather and Pacquiao. If they want to be "the greatest" as they have been nicknamed - then beating Martinez goes a long way to validating their claim. Beating Mosley/Berto/Marquez/Cotto just wouldn't be as good a win.

In addition - its a win/win situation for both men (ok, Floyd has an "0" to protect) - but if they win - then they are amazing, if they lose, Martinez was huge. There's money in the fight as well.

Course - they won't take it, as Martinez is a beast at MW - but we can dream nonetheless

D4thincarnation wrote:Martinez should stop calling out the lighter weights and concentrate on his own division.

If he feel they are no more challenges at middle then move up, if he really does want to fight someone at the lighter weights then move down.

Impressive victory by Martinez, I still have him at no.3 on my list but it very close.

I agree that he should stop calling out smaller guys. Likewise smaller guys should stop making weight stipulations. To be the best you have to beat the best at the best's weight. Dont you agree?

Maybe Mayweather can make that weight of 154lbs, but Pacquiao can get near it.

Pacquiao weighed 98lbs for his first pro fight only a couple of years ago he was campaigning at 130lbs.

Now he is expecting to move to 160lbs, it should not happen Martinez could have a 2 stone advantage in the ring and the health risks attached to that make the fight not viable.

I don't give Hagler too much credit for beating Duran, Hearns was a good fight and he got beat by SRL, Hagler would have a lot more credit if he would have moved up and faced Spinks

Hopkins also took on the smaller guys and should have too much credit for those fights either. I rate his win over Tarver and even Pavlik and Winky instead of the natural welter he beat at middle.

hitmansam wrote:So hang on a second Khan is world class but Alvarez isn't!?
And Berto? Are you serious?
Martinez can fight at 154 and in called-out Cotto for a fight at 154lbs in presser after the fight.

haha, i think someone needs to take their own advice and go back to school.

D4 sorry to rain on your parade, but manny has fought at 154 and is classed as a 154 champion. Martinez will come down to 154 as he is a big light middle and a smaller middle. They just don't want anything to do with him. Roach is running his mouth of at martinez and can't back it up. So if you're saying that he can't fight martinez thats fine but then we can also say that manny's 154 (150) title is a paper belt right?

Manny weighed in at 144lbs for that fight, 10lbs off the light-middle limit.
And he gave away 17lbs in the ring that is dangerous amount of weight to give away.

Roach has said the fight could be made at 150lbs catchweight but Martinez might struggle with that.

They are just too far apart in natural size and it is a fight that should not happen.

But D4, light middle is 154 and martinez can make that weight. I'm fine with manny not fighting him but to say Martinez is calling out smaller fighters in laughable. He is a small middleweight and manny has fought in his division, nothing wrong there!

Martinez might be able to make the weight but Manny clearly can't get to 154lbs.

He fought for the light-middleweight title but he weighed in at 144lbs and it clear from that welter is his limit.

Martinez has said himself that Pacquiao is too small, but his promoter are pushing this fight for the money.

I agree, but if he is a genuine 154 champion he should be able to fight 154 contenders, after all the belt he won was sergio's old title.

D4thincarnation wrote:Martinez might be able to make the weight but Manny clearly can't get to 154lbs.

He fought for the light-middleweight title but he weighed in at 144lbs and it clear from that welter is his limit.

Martinez has said himself that Pacquiao is too small, but his promoter are pushing this fight for the money.

A dehydrated boxer is at greater risk as the brain is mainly composed of water. 24 hours is not enough to replenish all the water loss regardless of the amount of gatorade you drink. asking Martinez to boil down to 150 is asking a boxerto put his life at risk. As you know, boxers fight for money. Manny brings in huge $$$$$. Roach is being a dangerous idiot. Maybe he took too many punches whn active.

He has vacated the belt and said he can't fight at light-middle.

Boxing is a dangerous sport, if Pacquiao is going to give away a 2 stone advantage away in the ring he could very well suffer a serious injury in the ring.

D4thincarnation wrote:He has vacated the belt and said he can't fight at light-middle.

Boxing is a dangerous sport, if Pacquiao is going to give away a 2 stone advantage away in the ring he could very well suffer a serious injury in the ring.

Asking a boxer to enter the ring dehydrated is more dangerous yet Pac/Roach have no qualms with that. It takes more than 24 hours to recover from dehydration.

So you do agree its a paper title, I agree manny is too small.

Shouldnt have fought for a light middleweight title then

It just goes to prove that manny can't be legitimately viewed as a lmw champion. Just a paper champ, won at a catchweight against an unranked opponent then vacated within 100 days without defending. When the chance if fighting a class guy at 154 comes up his fan boys claim he is too small, yet they still want him to be recignised as a champ at the weight. Can't have it both ways.

I happen to think Martinez is too big for manny, but I also recognise that his lmw title was a joke. Others can't admit that.

Floyd has fought at full 154 before, although his ring weight was only 149. But he's bulked up a bit since then. Him vs maravilla at 154 would be highly interesting, but I hear his case has now been put back to April, so the chances if seeing him fight this year are decreasing.

It is the WBC title, it not a paper title, he is rightfully a world champ at light-middle.

But he has not dominated the division and clean up.

Mayweather only beat a part time Oscar at light-middle, RJJ only beat Ruiz at Heavyweight, if Manny title is just a paper title as you say then you will find they are a lot of paper champ around.

Obviously Manny has been a much better champion at welter and other weights than light-middle but he is a champion in both.

D4thincarnation wrote:It is the WBC title, it not a paper title, he is rightfully a world champ at light-middle.

But he has not dominated the division and clean up.

Mayweather only beat a part time Oscar at light-middle, RJJ only beat Ruiz at Heavyweight, if Manny title is just a paper title as you say then you will find they are a lot of paper champ around.

Obviously Manny has been a much better champion at welter and other weights than light-middle but he is a champion in both.

Where was Oscar ranked at LMW and was there any weight stipulations? How many fights did Marg have at LMW before he was gifted a title shot and forced to enter that fight dangerously below the legit weight.

Please answer the questions asked and not those you hoped was asked.