What's Cockerill's hidden agenda?

Richard Cockerill claims Andy Farrell's England coaching role could conflict with his job at Saracens.

Farrell, the Saracens first-team coach, will support England interim coach Stuart Lancaster in the Six Nations.

He is set to work with players such as Chris Ashton, who has been linked with a move to Saracens when his contract with Northampton expires next summer.

"Clearly there's a conflict there," said Cockerill, the director of rugby at Leicester.

"Chris Ashton gets to work with the Saracens head coach for eight weeks. The clubs weren't consulted about that.

"We don't know the parameters of what he [Farrell] is doing or not doing."

Cockerill insists he has "no problem" with Farrell's coaching credentials, but is keen for the game's governing bodies to clear up any misunderstanding over his role.

"He's a quality coach; a really good bloke - [I have] no issues with any of that," Cockerill added.

"Premier Rugby and the Rugby [Football] Union need to at least clarify the situation on what Farrell does."

Cockerill has also confirmed that Tigers have agreed terms with England international Dan Cole.

"The detail of it's done but it just have to be signed off by both parties legally," he said.

"We produced Dan, he's come through our academy, he's a local boy and we have to keep those players and we've done utmost to do that.

"He's happy with that, we're happy with that and hopefully we can get that signed off very soon."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/16187351.stm

OK, I'm no lover of the Saffacens, but that's just me.

What compelled Cockers to have such an open dig at Farrell?

It would appear that he decided to throw a few mischievous grenades into the room and you picked one up Portnoy

Cockerill has also confirmed that Tigers have agreed terms with England international Dan Cole.

Most important quote in the article.

I do actually see an advantage for saffercens here though. Farrell will gain an in depth knowledge of other clubs England players over time and will no doubt use this at club level.

I could well understand other Prem coaches feeling uncomfortable with this.

Why is Farrell being allowed to coach a club and England when Edwards was prevented from doing the same?

I didn't think coaches could be involved with a club and the international side. That was the claim when Edwards went to Wales anyway. I remember at the time it was generally agreed that it was a good thing (which I still think is good idea). However with Farrell, just for the 6 nations, it's probably ok. The RFU do need to keep an eye on things.

"He's a quality coach; a really good bloke - [I have] no issues with any of that," Cockerill added.

"Clearly there's a conflict there,"

Sounds like the opening rounds of an RFU vs PRL battle to me. The RFU have given Farrell and hence Saracens full access (by appointing him as a coach) to every English player in the AP and their clubs. Now I doubt Farrell will do anything under hand but at the same time he is going to pick up other teams structures and learn all about other teams players strengths and weaknesses. He can't unlearn that when he is back at Sarries facing these teams in the league. It could well be a tactical advantage.

Its more than that. The clubs arent allowed to make approaches to contracted players at the moment under, yet its already been all over the papers that Saracens are "tapping up" Ashton.

I think Cockers is concerned about that practise spreading, and Farrell having direct access to and infleunce over his players.

There could too be a problem with coaches still contracted to clubs bringing information from players back to use against them in the league.

HammerofThunor wrote:I didn't think coaches could be involved with a club and the international side. That was the claim when Edwards went to Wales anyway. I remember at the time it was generally agreed that it was a good thing (which I still think is good idea). However with Farrell, just for the 6 nations, it's probably ok. The RFU do need to keep an eye on things.

At the time the RFU had an agreement to not tap up any contracted coaches. I think they chucked that out after losing out on Edwards the first time.

Can't say I am complaining. I am not a big fan of Cockerill but I suppose he has a point. Farrell will get some handy knowledge. For all we know others could have done it in the past too....

Though I think he's worried that the RFU are no longer showing their normal preferal treatment of Leicester. Are Saracens the new club favourite of the RFU? Ha! I doubt it.

I don't think he has to fear on that count though - Rowntree is still there (on merit I should add) and Jeff Blackett is still there too.

Why can Tiger fans not spell properly? The name is SARACENS. Just repeat it a few times Portnoy and Tigerleghorn. It might take a while to sink in though......


Yes I saw Cole re-signed for you. Hardly surprising is it? Good for Leicester though. Not so good for Bath though. They would have wanted to add another Tiger to the ranks. Especially with their frontrow problems.

beshocked wrote:

Yes I saw Cole re-signed for you. Hardly surprising is it? Good for Leicester though. Not so good for Bath though. They would have wanted to add another Tiger to the ranks. Especially with their frontrow problems.

Pity for Bath they didnt have a part time England coach to chat him up ......

Peter seabiscuit wheeler pot calling the kettle black! A Leicester fan talking to me about England bias. Ha ha! Sorry I just have to laugh.

I didnt say anything about bias, I made a crack about part time coaches being abel to use their position to poach other clubs players.

You have tour riduclous pet conspiracy theories, Ill have mine.

We'll see who whinging about selection bias when Saracens All England backs division gets selected en masse and turned into abysmall players overnight.

beshocked wrote:
Why can Tiger fans not spell properly? The name is SARACENS. Just repeat it a few times Portnoy and Tigerleghorn. It might take a while to sink in though......

I am just ignorant, beshocked.

How many Saffer-born players are in the first team squad at LSA? about eight or nine (more(?)?
From Stevens through to the Namibian-born but out and out Bulls player Jacques Burger.

http://www.saracens.com/news/first-team-squad/

The Sarries' website air-brushes out their Saffer roots and I notice that there is a similar tendency on wiki to do the same - fudging the playing careers.

beshocked noted in his his esteemed list of Sarries' Jeff losses to the RWC John Smit who had played an amazing zilch games for the club.

Amazingly The Saracens have a number of other overseas players, but there seems to no corresponding clustering around any other nation.

But then they are 50% owned by Saffers.

The website also handily offers latest tweets from associated cohorts

like




15 Dec 2011 - 07:37

You know the flight from SA has arrived when a massive man walks out in a bulls rugby jersey bursting at the seams, beautiful!!!


Follow John Smit on twitter






SAFFERCENS!

tigerleghorn wrote:I do actually see an advantage for saffercens here though. Farrell will gain an in depth knowledge of other clubs England players over time and will no doubt use this at club level.

Fortunately he's too thick to be able to take advantage of that knowledge.

Peter seabiscuit wheeler well it makes a refreshing change not to see a Leicester dominated England management.The likes of Martin Johnson,Wells and Rowntree have had plenty of time to pass on information onto Leicester.

Andy Farrell was picked because he is a top coach. Has worked with Stuart Lancaster before etc.

We'll see. I actually think this interim management team will be competent. Remember this is only temporary management.

I would bring in Mallett and his team simply then there would be no accusation of club bias.

Portnoy admitting you are ignorant does show that partly you are not. All of us are ignorant in some way.

Yes about 8 or 9. Your point is?

I have met Jacques Burger. He is definitely a proud Namibian.

How is the Saracens website and wiki fudging it out?

You mean just like Thomas Waldrom and Manu Tuilagi being labelled as English on the Leicester wiki page? Pot calling the kettle black springs to mind yet again.

I know in your archaic world you have everyone playing in the country they were born...oh wait evidently that doesn't work for Jacques Burger does it? Despite being born in Namibia, being probably the most well known Namibian you label him as a South African.

I counted Smit because as he was at the rugby world cup he was not able to play for Saracens in the league . Hardly rocket science is it?

Yes, do try to spell properly, its SAFFACENS, not SAFFERCENS.

You know it, we know it.

SAFFACENS.

Time For Trumpton wrote:

tigerleghorn wrote:I do actually see an advantage for saffercens here though. Farrell will gain an in depth knowledge of other clubs England players over time and will no doubt use this at club level.

Fortunately he's too thick to be able to take advantage of that knowledge.

Yes Time for Trumpton because of course you know Farrell intimately. You know how intelligent he is. Is he too thick because he's a Northern lad? An uncouth barbarian from Wigan?

Not like your well oiled self from Leicester, your upper class accent and well behaved poodle following you in tow as you get into your limo.

You are very amusing. Farrell is so thick that he has managed to forge an incredibly successful rugby league career, crossed codes and played international rugby for England in union (not a huge success but much better than any of the armchair pundits on here including myself could do) and has now started a successful coaching career helping Saracens to their 1st ever AP title, helping coach the England saxons and now been picked for a part time England coach job.

Not bad for a thicko is it?

Apparently its feeding time at the zoo.

And you don't have to be too fussy what you feed the animals either, they'll bite on it regardless of what it is...

By the way peter seabiscuit wheeler please tell me if you find some of my comments offensive. I will tone it down. My intention is not to insult you or others. We simply have differing views.

You are right though. If Farrell does start showing bias then I am going to get it in the neck on these forums. What goes around comes around.

By the way I am moderate compared to some Saracens fans! You should go on our unofficial forums!

beshocked wrote:By the way peter seabiscuit wheeler please tell me if you find some of my comments offensive. I will tone it down. My intention is not to insult you or others. We simply have differing views.

You are right though. If Farrell does start showing bias then I am going to get it in the neck on these forums. What goes around comes around.

By the way I am moderate compared to some Saracens fans! You should go on our unofficial forums!

No problems from me BS, and same for me back. We agree to disagree on many points ...unlike some Im not here to bait you and I get the same vibe back frome you. A little jousting here and there and the occassional cheeky pot shot is fine, I think we can all see where the line is.

Strangely, I would have though the advantage was the other way around - players from other AP clubs will see how AF likes players to operate, they'll get an understanding of how he likes the game to be played, the patterns he likes to run and the strenghts and weaknesses in the defensive lines he likes to apply.

I don't believe players show up for international duty to walk up to the coaching staff and go "well this is the way we do it at our club". All Farrell will learn is players attitude towards training and their willingness to learn new things - this will give Saracens an advantage when it comes to recruitment but not when it comes to playing different teams. Remember, he's only going to see players individually - not their whole club unit.
Cockerill should really be focusing on ASM!!!

Exactly PSW.

Red Right that's a really good point. Never thought about that. To be fair though I would expect a lot of coaching analysis on the Saracens patterns already! Lot of logic to what you say though.

I am a bit nervous about the Ashton situation though. I don't want anyone accusing Saracens of tapping up. I would have kept this under wraps till January when he is allowed to legally talk to others.

beshocked wrote:

1. Portnoy admitting you are ignorant does show that partly you are not. All of us are ignorant in some way.

2. Yes about 8 or 9. Your point is?

3. I have met Jacques Burger. He is definitely a proud Namibian.

4. How is the Saracens website and wiki fudging it out?

5. You mean just like Thomas Waldrom and Manu Tuilagi being labelled as English on the Leicester wiki page? Pot calling the kettle black springs to mind yet again.

6. I know in your archaic world you have everyone playing in the country they were born...oh wait evidently that doesn't work for Jacques Burger does it? Despite being born in Namibia, being probably the most well known Namibian you label him as a South African.

7. I counted Smit because as he was at the rugby world cup he was not able to play for Saracens in the league . Hardly rocket science is it?

beshocked, Forgive me for annotating numerically your response,

1. "Portnoy admitting you are ignorant does show that partly you are not. All of us are ignorant in some way."

Neither of us is ignorant - as well we know. But I don't try to interpret reality. I have a history of being totally against Tigers' policy (e.g. when Dean Richards was sacked and the succession of foreign coaches who hadn't a clue about the English game)

2. Yes about 8 or 9. Your point is?

It's obvious. The Saracens' model has been for some years to create a 'London'-based SA-biased side with the madman Venter through to the transfer of a European fixture to Cape Town.

3. I have met Jacques Burger. He is definitely a proud Namibian.

And also a reknowned Bull - that's the Saffer connection.

4. How is the Saracens website and wiki fudging it out?

Well the SA playing history is air-brushed. On the Saracens site it's obvious. On Wiki you have generall only the birth dates and playing history to go on. And there are so many lost years in there.

5. You mean just like Thomas Waldrom and Manu Tuilagi being labelled as English on the Leicester wiki page? Pot calling the kettle black springs to mind yet again.

Manu's personal wiki entry starts "Tuilagi played junior rugby at Hinckley RFC from U14..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manu_Tuilagi

Waldrom's starts "Waldrom made his Wellington Lions provincial debut in 2001 against Otago."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Waldrom#Club_career

The Tigers' wiki shows only national flags.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leicester_Tigers#Current_squad
And as Tom has never (and I hope never will) represented England, his nationality will revert to NZ.

6. I know in your archaic world you have everyone playing in the country they were born...oh wait evidently that doesn't work for Jacques Burger does it? Despite being born in Namibia, being probably the most well known Namibian you label him as a South African.

Nope. I named him as a successful (and may I say very talented) Bull. Great player who shone in the Saffer league.

7. I counted Smit because as he was at the rugby world cup he was not able to play for Saracens in the league . Hardly rocket science is it?[/quote]

Stangely when I counted up the Tigers' losses to the RWC at the start of the season, I rated him as 1/2 a loss.

Manipulate it as you will. You are wrong.

As home crowd attendance will testify.

Back to the actual cut and thrust of the article though...

I think it's just Cockeril stirring things up and maybe trying to take some of the spotlight off this weekends crunch game against ASM. I wouldn't worry about Farrels conflict of interests. It's no real different to a coach coaching say the Lions then going back to his club. Or if Brian Smith went back to LI.

As to tapping up players for contracts, I get the feeling a lot of this is hot air created by bored journos.

Portnoy.

1.Agree
2.Barnet Copthall, strong English academy. The London SA experiment will fail.

3.Burger played for a South African club? What's your point? He isn't South African though. He's a very good player like many of the South Africans are.

4.I haven't looked into it in detail but so? Wouldn't you expect Saracens to embrace the so called South African heritage instead of covering it up? If you want you can fill in the blanks. I don't think anyone will stop you.

5. Manu Tuilagi's life begins at 13? My point is there is details missing from everyone.

6.It's your emphasis on out and out Bulls player. I am sure he sees himself as an out and out Saracens player now.

7.Why does Smit count as half? No manipulation. He was missing. If you don't include him then you can't include numerous players from other clubs which is just silly.

What has home crowd attendance got to do with anything?

Yes we all know Leicester is the most popular club in the AP and Saracens' average attendance is poor. Your point is?

As already explained numerous times the Saracens management are working on a solution - Barnet Copthall.

TBH,

Cockerill was asked a question by a journo and he answered with his usual candour.

The likes of Martin Johnson,Wells and Rowntree have had plenty of time to pass on information onto Leicester.

None of them are contracted to the club or have any day to day involvement with the club. Before you argue the 'old pals' link I'll point out that Sarries have Gustard and Saints have West and Dusty Hare all of whom would fall into the old mates category. Rowntree and Johnson have never coached at Tigers and it's been over a decade since Wells did, Ford has a more recent connection to Sarries then those do to Tigers.

Sam it's only a suggestion. I have no evidence to suggest they did pass on information.

It's Cockerill who is the suspicious one.

Agree with Yappysnap. Farrell Sr doesn't seem the type who would use subterfuge.

I think Cockerill just wants some media attention.

beshocked wrote:By the way peter seabiscuit wheeler please tell me if you find some of my comments offensive. I will tone it down. My intention is not to insult you or others. We simply have differing views.

You are right though. If Farrell does start showing bias then I am going to get it in the neck on these forums. What goes around comes around.

By the way I am moderate compared to some Saracens fans! You should go on our unofficial forums!

Please tone it down.

I'm not sure which is worse, your anti Leicester or the others anti Saracens.

To be fair its pretty much one way traffic from my lot on here. Compared to Holly Wilaboobie he hasnt even come close to wumming

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:To be fair its pretty much one way traffic from my lot on here. Compared to Holly Wilaboobie he hasnt even come close to wumming

Now I want a new smiley - the "Holly Willaboobie" - I leave it to your imagination how it may look.

Oh come on Nathan it's a little banter. I will try and tone it down though cant promise it. I love Leicester really. If I didn't why would I post about you guys so much. Most of the Leicester fans on 606 v2 are very knowledgeable.

You should be flattered, not hurt by my attention.

There is a lot of love and hate about every side.

I hope you beat Clermont on the weekend. Cockerill please focus on that.

I think Cockerill just wants some media attention

Doubtful. Not his style. Normally he keeps out of the public eye and encourages (demands) his players do the same.

Agree with Yappysnap. Farrell Sr doesn't seem the type who would use subterfuge

Doesn't have to be subterfuge. You work closely with people and you learn things about them. May well be little tell tale things they do as the wind up for a long pass or they favour a step off one foot more than the other etc. Stuff that would be overlooked normally will be highlighted as they work closely. Now when he goes back to Sarries and that player is playing against him will he pretend he never knew any of those little details? They can make a difference in a close game.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

I think Cockerill just wants some media attention

Doubtful. Not his style. Normally he keeps out of the public eye and encourages (demands) his players do the same.

Agree with Yappysnap. Farrell Sr doesn't seem the type who would use subterfuge

Doesn't have to be subterfuge. You work closely with people and you learn things about them. May well be little tell tale things they do as the wind up for a long pass or they favour a step off one foot more than the other etc. Stuff that would be overlooked normally will be highlighted as they work closely. Now when he goes back to Sarries and that player is playing against him will he pretend he never knew any of those little details? They can make a difference in a close game.

As Red Right says the players will learn about how Andy Farrell operates too.

No comment need about keeping out of the public eye and encouraging players to do the same. Let's just say he has not been overly successful in that regard!

Hi all, nice job all of you on calming each other down when things were threatening to get heated. for all

While we're on the subject of agendas, there was an interesting article in yesterday's Times discussing the Sarries owner's global season idea. Have to admit from a southern hemisphere perspective it had me seething, having a global club season running April-October and internationals December-March would imply playing test matches in January in SA and Australia - not fun for the players in the slightest! Playing club games in Southern France or Italy in August would also be tough - and the potential spectators would all be on holiday

I am thinking of sending Cockerill a little tin foil hat for Christmas!

It is interesting that after a sustained period of success, at the first sign of a little wobble this year, Cockers is lining up the excuses already.

So far, we have had missing World Cup players, injuries (including blaming the England management for Ben Youngs being injured) and now that Saracens will get to know about how other teams play by coaching with England.

No mention of poor training or tactical mistakes. I suspect that if Tigers do win a trophy this season, which is still very very possible, then all of these things that have affected their campaign so far will be forgotten.

Let's just say he has not been overly successful in that regard!
.

When was the last time a Leicester play got into trouble whilst at their club? There was the Manu incident in NZ but he was dragged into Cockerill's office on his return. Otherwise the off field incidents involving Tigers players are very small.

As Red Right says the players will learn about how Andy Farrell operates too.

Good coaches have more than one strategy and adapt their methods to the overall game plan (which will be up to Lancaster) and to the players available. Farrell is backs coach at Sarries who last season played absolutely zero expansive off of set piece ball yet this season where he is still backs coach the ball is moved with regularity off of set piece ball. A passing play maker was acquired and so he's changed the way the backs operate. He'll do the same for England. The players can't change who they are or their strengths and weaknesses though.

Well Sam not too long ago in a certain derby there were problems which went on. Very true though. No Leicester player did get into trouble.

Yes in regards to off field incidents there hasn't been too much in regards to Leicester.

Cockerill has history of speaking his mind.

And Venter has a history of speaking out of his mind.

speaking out of his mind? what does that even mean? Sorry Portnoy you'll need to explain.

LondonTiger wrote:TBH,

Cockerill was asked a question by a journo and he answered with his usual candour.

Well Sam not too long ago in a certain derby there were problems which went on. Very true though. No Leicester player did get into trouble.

On field passion I have no problem with. The boys are pumped up for it, the atmosphere is electric and it kicks off. Happens.

Cockerill has history of speaking his mind..

Yeah he won't hold back. It's an interesting point and got us all talking. The Journo who asked the question must be delighted with his quote.

On field passion like punches? We obviously have a different viewpoint on punches! Punches should be a straight red in my opinion and a minimum 4 week ban.

I can imagine your opinion at the recent Leicester-Saints derby: "Punching is all good but if you pull someone's hair...flog then hang the guy...."

to be fair, the hairpulling was the cause of the punching.

cause and reaction.

you dont see 2 props arguing then start pulling eachothers hair, its not quite queensbury rules is it.

but understand what you're saying beshocked, you're more likely to cause damage with punching ergo surely that should be deemed worse by the ref/citing panels.

on the original topic, dont think Cockerill really had an agenda, he even bigged up Farrell as a human being and as a coach.

its like when Gatland gets peoples backs up, its often the straight-talking answer to a mischeivious reporters question thats had spin put on it and quoted particularly mischeiviously.

that reporters done his job well.

On field passion like punches? We obviously have a different viewpoint on punches! Punches should be a straight red in my opinion and a minimum 4 week ban.

Depends entirely on the context. Passion can cloud the judgement and the red mist may descend under provocation. Not wise but does happen. Will no doubt happen again.

Comfort I think Ashton deserved his ban. Maybe not that long but the silly boy denied wrong doing I believe.

True it is the context. You know what I mean. You could say passion clouds judgement or red mist under provocation in regards to murder too. It doesn't mean it's ok.

"Sorry boss I punched the guy a few times because he pulled my mate's hair! Also I have to apologise to the little ESPN boy who I almost punched in the head. Sorry mate it was an accident."

Also I have to apologise to the little ESPN boy who I almost punched in the head

No one got close to punching the ball boy. Poor guy nearly got crushed against the hoardings though. The Crumbie supporters were looking after him and he seemed ok. Hope the Tigers match day team got him some free stuff by way of an apology though.

Ozzy3213 wrote:I am thinking of sending Cockerill a little tin foil hat for Christmas!

It is interesting that after a sustained period of success, at the first sign of a little wobble this year, Cockers is lining up the excuses already.

So far, we have had missing World Cup players, injuries (including blaming the England management for Ben Youngs being injured) and now that Saracens will get to know about how other teams play by coaching with England.

No mention of poor training or tactical mistakes. I suspect that if Tigers do win a trophy this season, which is still very very possible, then all of these things that have affected their campaign so far will be forgotten.

Agree entirely here, i'm just waiting for the next one after a poor HC campaign.

I think we learn alot more about a teams character (be that the players or coaches or clubs) in defeat then in victory.

Cockeril has come out numerous times stating he's learning on the job and wasn't ready for this season. I just wish he'd leave it at that sometimes.