Hartley a liability again!

Watching the Saints v Scarlets game at the weekend its clear that Hartley's discipline is still very poor to put it mildly. On the bright side he didn't actually resort to thuggery but his constant penalty count was embarrassing. He clearly can't help himself and was made to look like a stupid schoolboy by the ref. Lancaster should look long and hard at this most recent performance and ask himself does he really want this penalty machine running out for England. I say not.

The area that concerns me with hartley was that he was expected to be a mobile dynamic ball carrying hooker (hes got the physicality)...and yet he just doesnt seem to be doing it....

I always thought of him as a spoilt bully who lashes out if things aren;t going his way. He seems more at home flushing first years heads down the toilet than leading England's rugby team - you've got much better figureheads surely ?

I agree in part with your assessment of Hartley. He looked petulant and below par on the weekend, as you say he has all the attributes to be a really good hooker, but just seems to have lost the drive to get there. I got the impression it was going that way for him a while ago, that's why Mallinder made him Captain at Saints to bring him on a bit, maybe it's just fizzled out now?

The question I would ask is who else? Joe Gray looks too lightweight for my liking. Rob Webber has the park work but without any semblance of a brain or ability to throw correctly. Jamie George will be great, but needs a couple of seasons starting yet, and possibly needs to move on from Sarries to do that? And... Lee Mears, I think we all agree his time past a few seasons ago. Then who...?

Chjw

Agree with much of that, except I think Jamie George is in a very good place to learn with Sarries at the moment, and he does get some game time. I understand Brits contract is up for renewal and there are sure to be some big money offers, and Smit is a great guy to pick the brains of (heck, RWC winning captains are not a common phenomenon) but perhaps is someone you can now get and stay in front of with regard to the starting line-up.

I agree he seems to have stagnated in terms of progress but is still the best option available to England at the moment. He is strong in the scrum and his throwing is up there with the best in the premiership (Saints have the most successful line out this season). It disappointing he seems to have gone backwards in terms of carrying but he continues to put himself about in terms of hitting rucks and tackling. He does need to really work on his discipline though because before long he is going to start seeing the colour yellow on a regular basis unless he wises up.

He didn't play the ref well at the weekend. Rolland kept shouting ruck meaning (in his eyes anyway) that no-one could challenge for the ball unless the Scarlets 9 had either passed or run around the fringes. Hartley didn't seem to learn this though and continuously got pinged, which was plain stupid on his part. A few times he didn't come through the middle and was rightly pulled up for it (it's a fine line).

I feel he needs a break to try and help rediscover his best form. Last year Saints were challenging in the both the AP and HC until the final weeks and so played a lot of high pressure games towards the end of the season. They didn't have much squad depth to enable him to rest, plus he is captain (I'm guessing he is on the park more minutes than nearly every other hooker in the AP) so he played a lot of games. He then more or less went straight into training with England for thw WC before coming back to the premiership and carrying on again. Before this he had a decent 6N in 2010 and was rightly first choice hooker during the AI's when England started to show some form.I hope he is given the summer off to get a proper break from the game and maybe improve his fitness. He certainly has the attributes to be a top hooker but needs to play with his head a little more if he is to realise his full potential.

If he concentrated on his own game rather than waste so much energy trying to wind the opposition up he would then become a far better player for his club and country.

Cymroglan wrote:If he concentrated on his own game rather than waste so much energy trying to wind the opposition up he would then become a far better player for his club and country.

Very true but in fairness to him he has so far played with decent discipline when playing for England - his petulance seems to be more evident when playing for the Saints.

People on the old 606 were telling you how crap he was for ages. He likes to think of himself as a flat track bully but cowers into his shell when another forward squares up to him. The boys from the Blues taught him a thing or two about keeping his fat yap shut. Funny that when he is the centre of attention i:e; Wales vs England in Cardiff, he is disciplined and plays okay.

Well...who are the options...they're potential..but i dont think they're quite ready...

George: Looking like a good'un...but still developing...but learning with top guys in Smit and Brits....
Gray is someone i also thinks looks a little lightweight...
Hartley looks decidedly out of form...but will start.
Lindsay at Wasps...a big unit...but throwing is a work in progress...
Webber...struggled with throw ins...

Did Mullan play hooker? A big scrummaging guy good around the park?

Hartley does seem to be one of those players who needs an attitude adjustment. It seems to be more that he's easily wound up than anything more fundamental, and I guess playing for England will ease the pressure in that regard.

Which said, I was surprised that Gray didn't get an EPS call up (but maybe the plan is to bring him in as injury cover for Mears). He's not the traditional shape for a hooker, but he's a decent lineout thrower and plays like a back row in the loose. In a more heavyweight pack I think he would be fine at international level, but England's current pack isn't likely to be the eight headed monster of yore. We shall just have to see what happens.

Have you noticed....many of the current players are "with a bigger pack they would be great...ie Croft, Gray etc...but we dont have a big pack...and aint going to in the immediate future...until the likes of Marler gets his scrummaging boots on...Attwood, Garvey etc really make the spots theirs...

The guy is a prat.I would love England to persevere with him.There must be an English hooker better than Hartley,surely?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well...who are the options...they're potential..but i dont think they're quite ready...

George: Looking like a good'un...but still developing...but learning with top guys in Smit and Brits....
Gray is someone i also thinks looks a little lightweight...
Hartley looks decidedly out of form...but will start.
Lindsay at Wasps...a big unit...but throwing is a work in progress...
Webber...struggled with throw ins...

Did Mullan play hooker? A big scrummaging guy good around the park?

Think Mullen did play either prop or hooker when he first came onto the scene but hasn't played 2 for a long time now. He would need a couple of seasons playing purely as a hooker before being considered for England plus for me he's not too far behind Corbisiero for being the starting loose head (I would have him joint second with Wood and in front of Marler personally).

That's a fair assessment of the Hookers GF although I would put Paice in there as a maybe, although he is another who's aim when throwing can go awol. Think you are being generous with Lindsey saying his throwing is a work in progress as on the 3 occasions I've seen him his throwing has been dire. Webber can certainly get the yips when throwing as well. For me the two primary roles the hooker MUST do competently above all else if throw straight and to his targets, and scrumage. If they can't do that then they shouldn't be considered otherwise your team will be murdered at nearly all re-starts and other teams will just kick to the corners all game adding to the pressure the hooker is under.

I actually don't think that Hartley is playing as badly as some make out. May not be carrying as much as he should but still working hard in the loose and being solid in the scrum and lineout. It's just that he is doing this whilst being a prat and distracting from any good he is doing. Cut the stupidity out and start carrying again and England will have a decent operator once again.

Would love to see Alan Quinlan play againt him. He is a guy who is easily wound up and smart teams will take advantage of that.

It's nonsense like this that makes him appear childish young Gareth Davies does not react in any shape or form.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtN-enPWYTY

On ability alone Hartley is probably the best hooker in the home nations. His basics are excellent and he puts himself about. Agreed his carrying isn't going great but it'll come.

This talk of him being a poor hooker is nonsense, he's disliked by the opposition and as an England fan I kinda like that. He's streets ahead of any other hooker in England and this moment also.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:On ability alone Hartley is probably the best hooker in the home nations. His basics are excellent and he puts himself about. Agreed his carrying isn't going great but it'll come.

This talk of him being a poor hooker is nonsense, he's disliked by the opposition and as an England fan I kinda like that. He's streets ahead of any other hooker in England and this moment also.

Disagree, Ford best hooker in the 6 Nations, closely followed by Rees

I think Ford is pretty average myself, Id have Best, Hartley and Rees well ahead.

Sgt, Hartley is probably the worst in the home nations. I don't see what his strengths are to be honest. It is certainly not leadership, unless you count constantly popping up the scrums as a quality?

*sigh* Don't we get this every year regarding DH? Although he does sometimes come across like a hothead at the saints, he does seem to reel it in playing for England. Gatland tried to wind him up last year and had on his grid after a faultless game by the lad.

His strengths are his basics, that's what he should be judged on. He is an excellent scrummager (part of one of the best scrummaging units in the NH) and his lineout is outstanding (Saints one of if not the best lineout in the AP).

I can see why people dislike him as he's niggly but he is a very good hooker. If you can't see this I guess we look for different attributes from our 2.

DH maybe mouthy (aren't all hookers), but when was the last time you saw him get carded for it, he does have trouble "understanding" the ref, (don't all kiwis, it is just when you get ablack shirt you get away with it ). He winds the opposition up and gets them carded, as the Welsh well know; he rarely gets carded himself for violent conduct

Breadvan wrote:*sigh* Don't we get this every year regarding DH? Although he does sometimes come across like a hothead at the saints, he does seem to reel it in playing for England. Gatland tried to wind him up last year and had on his grid after a faultless game by the lad.

Spot on bread, we (Welsh) will go on about in the days leading up the match but like you said he proved Gatland wrong last year big style.

Yes I agree he seems the kind of player that if you can 'get' at him early on then a few penalties could come your way but it didn't work like that for us last year.

Don't forget we have our own 'liability' in Phillips to a degree who has similar temprement if things not going his way, in Phillips case he seems to want to take on the world as opposed to concentrating on his own game.

I agree with one of the above comments, stating that Hartley does indeed play a lot better when he is the centre of attention. I think his best game for England was against Wales in the 6N last year, when Gatland started raging the psychological warfare on Hartley, regarding his line out ability. Fair play to Hartley, he rose above it and played seriously well. Since then though, he's been pretty average, and his physicality with ball in hand has been well below what it should be for a guy his size. Less of the petulance as well please.

A lot of people have mentioned Ford on here, and I've heard he's playing well this season, but don't get a chance to see much of the Rabo any more. What's improved within his game? I know he used to be criticised for his line outs, but his work around the park was always good...

Did the re-emergence of Thompson knock Hartley maybe. I suppose he was 'top dog' until Tommo made his comeback.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote: He winds the opposition up and gets them carded, as the Welsh well know; he rarely gets carded himself for violent conduct

Why would we know, what welshman did he get carded?

He was the player that AW Jones tripped up, but the card wasn't a direct result of Hartley, rather AWJ not thinking

I watched the Northampton game at the weekend and thought Hartley acted like a complete idiot, and several of the penalties he gave away were completely daft. The sort of silly penalties that plagued England during the Martin Johnson tenure.

Hartley can be a firecracker of a hooker when he's on his game, and England sorely need that, but he was a hindrence to the Saints at the weekend rather than a help, and his captaincy was poor. Dowson to me seems the more natural leader in the side.

He's still the England number one on merit, but at the moment he isn't setting the bar very high for Gray, George and Webber. He needs to just focus entirely on playing, and ignore the off the ball nonsense. I can understand why Malinder made him captain, obviously hoping the responsibility would help both the man and his game mature (much needed). But I don't think it's really working, and he certainly isn't good at dealing with referees.

In terms of the Lions, I'd have Rees, Best and Ford ahead of him (in no particular order).

justified sinner wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:On ability alone Hartley is probably the best hooker in the home nations. His basics are excellent and he puts himself about. Agreed his carrying isn't going great but it'll come.

This talk of him being a poor hooker is nonsense, he's disliked by the opposition and as an England fan I kinda like that. He's streets ahead of any other hooker in England and this moment also.

Disagree, Ford best hooker in the 6 Nations, closely followed by Rees

Best was the best hooker in the World Cup

bluestonevedder wrote:He was the player that AW Jones tripped up, but the card wasn't a direct result of Hartley, rather AWJ not thinking

What a petulant act

englandglory4ever wrote:Watching the Saints v Scarlets game at the weekend its clear that Hartley's discipline is still very poor to put it mildly. On the bright side he didn't actually resort to thuggery but his constant penalty count was embarrassing. He clearly can't help himself and was made to look like a stupid schoolboy by the ref. Lancaster should look long and hard at this most recent performance and ask himself does he really want this penalty machine running out for England. I say not.

I heard him being vaunted as a captain on another thead. I was looking for the facepalm icon. But he was right up the list, along with flood (again facepalm). Lancaster's selection worries me in terms of identifying a suitable captain. I think Borthwick should be in their for his experience in that capacity.

miteyironpaw wrote:I think Borthwick should be in their for his experience in that capacity.

For me Hartley is the best hooker in the home nations for the basics. Great scrummager and his lineout throwing is rock solid. Discipline issues seem to come up when hes not playing at his best but hasnt been an issue for England yet so cant see the problem. On current form he would be behind Best and Ford at the moment but if all were on form he would be the best of the bunch. Needs a bit of break to be honest as hes played an awful lot of rugby. Might get it now as young Haywood at Saints is coming on nicely and should see more and more game time

funnyExiledScot wrote:

miteyironpaw wrote:I think Borthwick should be in their for his experience in that capacity.

I saw this after i'd already enacted the motion.

Don't get me wrong, as i've said above Hartley has all the attributes to be a really good hooker; and has at times looked like the real deal. His scrummaging does seem solid, but I think you could put Little Mears between Tongahuia and Mujati and he'd look a great scrummager.

His throwing has seemed very reliable in recent times too, so on those fronts I don't think he could be denigrated. It's his intermittent work around the park that I find a problem. England want a great hooker, someone in the mould of Fitzpatrick, Du Plessis, Smit (in his day) etc... The question has to be asked is he, or does he have the potential to be such a great hooker? I have great doubts about that, particularly with his varying commitment to the cause.

As miteyironpaw has pointed out on another thread, England need to be setting their sights on the best in order to be the best and that should be the primary focus.

Morgannwg,

I was thinking of a game a couple of years ago, HC game I think, he provoked his opposite number into trying to punch him, just laughed at the punch and did not retaliate in any way, the hooker was binned.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Morgannwg,

I was thinking of a game a couple of years ago, HC game I think, he provoked his opposite number into trying to punch him, just laughed at the punch and did not retaliate in any way, the hooker was binned.

What a legend.

It really doesn't matter how good a hooker he is. If he keeps giving the other side 3 or 6 points every game then he ain't worth a light.

englandglory4ever wrote:It really doesn't matter how good a hooker he is. If he keeps giving the other side 3 or 6 points every game then he ain't worth a light.

funnyExiledScot wrote:I watched the Northampton game at the weekend and thought Hartley acted like a complete idiot, and several of the penalties he gave away were completely daft.

Several of them? He gave 2 penalties away. One of them stopping Scarlets getting quick ball inside Saints' 22.

Johnson is often heralded in his England captaincy and it was far from unusual for him to be penalised a couple of times a game.

Regarding giving away a kickable penalty, its validity very much depends on what it prevents and whether you get carded or not.

Saints had a bad start not adjusting to Rolland's pettiness after May's stupidity, but they improved after that opening quarter and ended the match on less penalties than Scarlets.

In that match Rolland spent a hell of a lot of time telling saints number two to get his hands off the ball. Was surprised the yellow didn't come out in the last 2o mins once.

maestegmafia wrote:In that match Rolland spent a hell of a lot of time telling saints number two to get his hands off the ball. Was surprised the yellow didn't come out in the last 2o mins once.

Well, if Rolland said that as often as you claim and yet only penalised Hartley twice, then he must have done a good job of keeping Rolland on his side.

The miracle was that Shingler was penalised 4 times and wasn't carded.

stlowe wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:In that match Rolland spent a hell of a lot of time telling saints number two to get his hands off the ball. Was surprised the yellow didn't come out in the last 2o mins once.

Well, if Rolland said that as often as you claim and yet only penalised Hartley twice, then he must have done a good job of keeping Rolland on his side.

The miracle was that Shingler was penalised 4 times and wasn't carded.

I agree.

Shingler was playing a very precarious game. After the first ten minutes of one yellow card and a few threats Rolland did bugger all. Not a good refining display.

Hartley was worse than Shingler as was that young flanker saints have, Callum Clarke.

They all played the referee well. But I don't think that is something to be applauded. 90% of what they were doing was absolutely unnecessary. There is no point in misbehaving just because you can.

maestegmafia.

the point of pushing the breakdown as hartley and clarke do is to slow the ball and negate any momentum gained by the opposition, its not just offending for the sake of it as you point out.

i would judge hartley more on the number of counter rucks made by saints in the second half, resulting in 6 straight turnovers alone, rather than two penalties conceded. Mallinder's game plan involves high emphasis on counter rucking to disrupt the oppositions ball, and uses hooker, six/seven and thirteen to do so. Thats why you will usually see hartley, wood/clarke and pisi give the majority of the penalties away at the breakdown.

true hartley still needs to refine his game, he sometimes disrupts too much and gives the penalty away as was seen twice on sat, but it certainly doesnt make him a bad hooker, especially taking into account his other attributes and is imo the best england has at the moment.

Hartly is a penalty machine and he will have been well sused out by the opposition and refs by now

You watch his penalty count in the 6 n - I bet its high and I bet he gets pinged for popping up and has to stop doing it.

I a more than happy for england to play him - I thin he is worth 6 pts to the opposition in territory and kickable penalties per game

stupid immature and arrogant - a nasty mix

ford is paying really well for his club this year - really showing what he can do.

It's interesting the things people claim about Hartley.

Looking back at his stats for last year's 6N, he started every game for England and gave a total of 1 penalty away the whole tournament.

He's been playing international rugby since 2008 and has 34 caps. He's been playing European & Premiership rugby since 2004. If everything people have been saying about him is true, surely the opposition and refs would have sussed it out a while ago.

All hookers wind up the opposition, I think we all know that and don't tend to have a problem with it really.
What forward hasn't slowed the ball down when the opposition looks like they could score? He's not alone there either is he. Don't get me wrong I was screaming at him and the ref last week - due to me being a Scarlets fan - but some of the things mentioned are ridiculous ifanyone thinks he's alone in this.


I can't understand how he doesn't get constantly pinged for popping up in the scrum. It seems he does this every other scrum but rarely gets penalised.
As for some suggesting he's the best hooker in the NH they must be related to him or something. At the moment if I were picking a B&I lions team it would be Best to start with the replacement being Rees or Ford. Dylan ' jack in the box ' Hartley wouldn't have a look in.

TJ wrote:Hartly is a penalty machine and he will have been well sused out by the opposition and refs by now

You watch his penalty count in the 6 n - I bet its high and I bet he gets pinged for popping up and has to stop doing it.

I a more than happy for england to play him - I thin he is worth 6 pts to the opposition in territory and kickable penalties per game

stupid immature and arrogant - a nasty mix

ford is paying really well for his club this year - really showing what he can do.

Well balanced and factual to the bitter end. Are you a Scot by any chance?

Lets see how we go in the 6n....i hope Hartley is as irritating to the opposition players and fans in that, as he obviously has been to them in the HC.....

Well balanced and factual to the bitter end. Are you a Scot by any chance?

love it Yappy....