Hartley a liability again!

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Watching the Saints v Scarlets game at the weekend its clear that Hartley's discipline is still very poor to put it mildly. On the bright side he didn't actually resort to thuggery but his constant penalty count was embarrassing. He clearly can't help himself and was made to look like a stupid schoolboy by the ref. Lancaster should look long and hard at this most recent performance and ask himself does he really want this penalty machine running out for England. I say not.

stlowe wrote:It's interesting the things people claim about Hartley.

Looking back at his stats for last year's 6N, he started every game for England and gave a total of 1 penalty away the whole tournament.

He's been playing international rugby since 2008 and has 34 caps. He's been playing European & Premiership rugby since 2004. If everything people have been saying about him is true, surely the opposition and refs would have sussed it out a while ago.

We had this argument about Moody too pre world cup, even after the stats showing he conceeded less penalties per test than other England and world flankers.
As for repuattions read the article on ESPN, apparently when Bakkies went for his citeing the commissionar refussed to beleive him when he said it was only his second one then asked him if he hit his children.

He does huff and puff a lot, but so long as its calculated I really dont see a problem with it for England. They have allowed themselves to be bullied a few times by dirty teams, if the oppsotion want a war then you have to have players who can make it uncomfortable for them back. The trick is ensureing its done under control, not as a reaction or simply givcing away penalties by being sloppy and paniced.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Well balanced and factual to the bitter end. Are you a Scot by any chance?

love it Yappy....

Aren't Geordies pretty much Sweaties anyway ?

munkian wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Well balanced and factual to the bitter end. Are you a Scot by any chance?

love it Yappy....

Aren't Geordies pretty much Sweaties anyway ?

Tynesides an independant nation permanently at war with civilisation, and Sunderland.

Well said Peter

In actual fact we have often been labled by southern folk....as Scots with our heads bashed in...well maybe so....but im myself am not a Scot...

One to look out for - Chris Brooker at Quins. He looks like Nick Easter's little brother (not a massive compliment i know...) and rotates with Joe Grey at the moment. He could be one who develops into the finished article.

bendog - Really? Chris Brooker? Grey certainly has been in great form, and Brooker has been performing reasonaly well - but not sure he is an international. Lets see how he does with the Saxons first.

I think Hartley is there for now...and i think the challengers will come from the likes of Lindsay, Youngs and George....

Hartley is the incumbent, and I think he's there on merit.

Only mentioning Brooker because I think he is just as good as Grey, who is viewed (by some anyway) as a challenger. I think Jaime George is more likely to become the player England want though.

Then again - I'm a biased Quins fan who will big-up any of our players when given half the chance!

Jamie George will hopefully continue to grow and develop the way he's been tipped to. I saw Sarries have taken to putting him at 16 now with Smit at 17 when Brits last played. Quite encouraging from a young man of such potential.

Interesting that if we are looking to keep our hooker on the larger side...

As listed on their websites (which i appreciate arent always accurate)

Lindsay - 6'2 , 17st 5
George - 6', 17st 2
Hartley - 6'1, 17.4

I prefer the hooker like the props to be big lads...and powerful in the scrum...

I remember seeing Lindsay at the end of last season for Wasps - a massive player, and when he's got the ball in his hands you think the next John Smit has emerged. Then you see him throw, and even from the comfort of your living room you want to duck. Worse than Webber, and that's saying something.

Interestingly, Lindsay used to be even heavier. Around 20st when he first came on the scene I think. But his throwing is shocking.

Yeah his throwing is poor...he used to be a back...who transfered to the pack so his ball carrying should be good.

Centre I believe, same as Tom Youngs for Tigers.

If Lindsay improved his throwing, he could be an excellent hooker, sort of similar to Bismarck Du Plessis with that great, mobile and physical game. Let's hope he learns to throw!

Yes lets hope he learns to throw!! ha.


Interesting that Tom Youngs is listed as 5'9 and 16st...reminds me of a Lee Mears size.

Yeh I guess they are quite similar, although the limited action Tom has seen this season so far, he's been really physical, more than Mears is. Shame he's injured at the moment, but hopefully will be back soon

Hawkins has looked pretty good when i've seen him play.

funnyExiledScot wrote:I remember seeing Lindsay at the end of last season for Wasps - a massive player, and when he's got the ball in his hands you think the next John Smit has emerged. Then you see him throw, and even from the comfort of your living room you want to duck. Worse than Webber, and that's saying something.

Chjw131 wrote:Hawkins has looked pretty good when i've seen him play.

I thought that as well, although the Tigers always seem to pick Chuter before him unless Chuter is not 100% fit (like the Ulster game). Stuart Barnes said he would have picked Hawkins in the EPS before the squad was announced (although that's not saying much as he does come out with some grade A tripe from time to time).

Agreed B91212, Barnes does an excellent impression, at times of one of those 'crapping Santas' you get at Christmas. Once he starts a stream of arse gravy he doesn't seem to be able to stop.

In the Hawkins instance though I would tend to agree with him. Particularly seeing as we're short on available talent there at the moment. I'm not saying he's a world beater but perhaps more dependable than Webber?

Ok how about a wild suggestion....put Lindsay in the EPS to play...but have another member of the team who can, throw in whilst Lindsay improves it...

On the Rugby Club a while ago, Greenwood was saying that SCW tried other players at throwing-in at the line out, and found that Mike Catt was the best of anyone by a country mile and genuinely wanted to use him at match time!

I have never understood why it has to be the hooker.

Back in the day I used to throw in as a winger.

I don't see how some of these pro's struggle, i'm a scrum half and have no problem doing it. I assume they do actually practice the throwing in side of a lineout in training?

When I watch certain teams in recent history play, I've sometimes wondered if they actually practiced anything in training.