Lions squad for Australia

Rather than select XVs for the Lion's tests which will change according to form, injuries and gameplan, who do you think will travel with the Lions in 2013

I'd say:
Props- Jenkins, Jones, Murray(not one tour match is on a Sunday), Healy, Corbisiero, Ross
Hooker- Ford, Best, Rees
Second Row - Gray, Hamilton, O'Connell, Ferris(can cover Back row), Charteris, Lawes,
Blindside Flanker - O'Brien, Brown, Lydiate
Openside - Barclay, Rennie, Warburton
No.8 - Denton, Faletau, Heaslip
Scrum half- Blair, Phillips, Murray, Youngs
Fly Half- Flood, Priestland, Sexton
Wing - Visser, Ashton, Cuthbert, North, Bowe, Evans
Centre- Roberts,Farrell, Tuilagi, Davies, O'Driscoll, Barret
Full Back - Foden, Kearney,Halfpenny, Hogg (All can cover various positions e.g Hogg- Centre, Foden, Halfpenny, and Kearney - Wing)

Leaving a squad of 47 with:
English: 9
Irish: 12
Scottish: 12
Welsh- 14

In my opinion it is a well balanced squad with the most equal amount of players from different nations for a while. Perhaps it's too big and through bias I presume I have perhaps overestimated the abilities of a few Scottish players.

If on form these could be in with a shout: Beattie, AW Jones, Hartley, Cusiter, Care, Weir, Laidlaw, Bradley Davies, Ian Evans, Jacobsen, Robshaw, Wood, Croft, Cole, Strettle and probably more which I can't remember

It's austailia.. Last one was SA

Selecting a squad with some purple specs on? Murray won't go, I doubt Ross will either. Dan Cole will go, but not so sure about Corbisiero.

Not too sure about props tbh, just selected on who's been playing in 6n

I think if you were to have a back row player who can give good back up at lock you would pick Croft ahead of Ferris surely? But I would have ferris in the squad anyway instead of Brown. I would also have Cole instead of Ross and Brown,Robshaw or Wood instead of Barclay, maybe even Haskell depends on form next year .

That's a massive squad, and they are going to Australia, not South Africa.

The squad will be more like 37. I always think of it as a matchday 22 plus a spare XV.

Props (5): Cole, A Jones, Ross, Jenkins and Healy.

Hooker (3): Ford, Rees and Best.

Second row (5): Gray, Lawes, POC, Davies and Charteris.

Backrow (7): Ferris, SOB, Lydiate, Warburton, Rennie, Heaslip and Falatau.

Scrum half (3): Phillips, Youngs and Murray.

Fly half (3): Priestland, Sexton and Hook.

Centres (5): Roberts, JD2, Barritt, Tuilagi and Joseph.

Wings (4): Bowe, North, Ashton and Halfpenny.

Fullback (2): Kearney and Foden.

20 forwards, 17 backs.

There's my crystal ball effort.

FES

I pressed quote on your post so that I could just easily show any changes rather than making people read through the whole thing again, but I barely disagreed with any. I'd be surprised if Hook went, and Joseph will struggle to get international recognition with Tuilagi around, but other than that I really like it.

The really interesting one I think is whether they'll be able to make a Roberts/Tuilagi partnership work. If so, then I think they could completely overpower Australia.

I included Barclay because when he is on form he is sensational, back in 2010 many pundits were tipping him to captain the tour; it looks like he is leaving Glasgow and hopefully he will go to a top class English or French side, same with Johnnie Beattie, Leicester look a bit bare in the openside department and as for JB I think somewhere like Wasps or Quins might be suitable, I don't think he suits the current Glasgow way of playing he was on fire in the days of the Evans brothers, Stortoni, Cusiter at his best, the killer B's, Kellock and Gray when they played expansively, if he can find a club who plays open and adventurous rugby like Quins he may well make the tour...

There is probagly going to be a few selecting Lawes. I don't see why, there is better 6's in England nevermind England and Wales and Ireland and Scotland...

I pick Lawes at lock, not at 6. He wouldn't get near the side as a backrow player.

Similarly Croft, he's a 6 and not a lock. If he's to go it's because he should be considered better at 6 than Ferris and Lydiate. His performances at the moment don't get him ahead of those 2.

thomh wrote:FES

I pressed quote on your post so that I could just easily show any changes rather than making people read through the whole thing again, but I barely disagreed with any. I'd be surprised if Hook went, and Joseph will struggle to get international recognition with Tuilagi around, but other than that I really like it.

I'm picking Joseph as my wildcard - he also could cover the wing slot as well. There's usually a player on the tour without much international experience, and from what I've seen this season Joseph is my pick. A really good balanced runner.

I agree on Hook, he's really a personal choice. Could make a case for quite a few options as backup to Priestland and Sexton.

I don't think he'd get near there as a lock either. Massively overated player. I'd rather take a pair of bruisers like O'Connell and Palmer. There could be 4 options from Wales putting their hands up, although I don't see all 4 of them making the cut. Unless Gatland is coach of course .

123456789 wrote:I included Barclay because when he is on form he is sensational, back in 2010 many pundits were tipping him to captain the tour; it looks like he is leaving Glasgow and hopefully he will go to a top class English or French side, same with Johnnie Beattie, Leicester look a bit bare in the openside department and as for JB I think somewhere like Wasps or Quins might be suitable,

I don't remember anyone saying he could captain the tour (willing to be proven wrong on that) and the back row is ridiculously competitive this time.

Quins wouldn't be a good fit. We have Robshaw, Wallace, Skinner and Fa'savalu, who's a proven top class international openside (though plays 6 for us), all signed until 2014 I think.

Morgannwg wrote:I don't think he'd get near there as a lock either. Massively overated player. I'd rather take a pair of bruisers like O'Connell and Palmer. There could be 4 options from Wales putting their hands up, although I don't see all 4 of them making the cut. Unless Gatland is coach of course .

He had a poor world cup after missing a lot of the training camp with a knee injury, but before that he was outstanding for England and Northampton in the HC. Not sure on the Palmer comment either - who is a similar type of player I think. I agree that Lawes would rightly be behind Gray in terms of that type of lock at this point though.

I think France is a likely destination for Barclay, although I can see a number of English sides looking closely at Beattie.

Northampton, Wasps and Gloucester could use a big destructive ball carrier at 8, one who has delivered at international level and needs a career revival. He'll also likely be available during the international window (given Denton's storming performances at 8 and competition from Vernon and McInally (and Brown)).

I think Barclay will move to France, and Beattie to England.

Morgannwg wrote:I don't think he'd get near there as a lock either. Massively overated player. I'd rather take a pair of bruisers like O'Connell and Palmer. There could be 4 options from Wales putting their hands up, although I don't see all 4 of them making the cut. Unless Gatland is coach of course .

It's obviously a matter of opinion. As you can see from my selection, I've got plenty muscle at lock. I rate Lawes highly, and I think his mobility and athleticism at lock (without sacrificing power) would be ideally suited to match the Australians. He wouldn't make my starting XV though, I'd have him on the bench behind the massive yet workaholic combination of Charteris and Gray.

I meant Beattie would be good for Quins not Barclay, Easter is slow and although Guest is good I think Beattie could really add something, he has a skillful element to him which would suit Quins + I really want to see a Scot in the Quins team! I doubt it though because O'Shea loves Easter.

Stuart Barnes or Stephen Jones said it about Barclay in Rugbyworld after the 2010 6N. And others elsewhere whom I can't remember.

123456789 wrote:Rather than select XVs for the Lion's tests which will change according to form, injuries and gameplan, who do you think will travel with the Lions in 2013

I'd say:
Props- Jenkins, Jones, Murray(not one tour match is on a Sunday), Healy, Corbisiero, Ross
Hooker- Ford, Best, Rees
Second Row - Gray, Hamilton, O'Connell, Ferris(can cover Back row), Charteris, Lawes,
Blindside Flanker - O'Brien, Brown, Lydiate
Openside - Barclay, Rennie, Warburton
No.8 - Denton, Faletau, Heaslip
Scrum half- Blair, Phillips, Murray, Youngs
Fly Half- Flood, Priestland, Sexton
Wing - Visser, Ashton, Cuthbert, North, Bowe, Evans
Centre- Roberts,Farrell, Tuilagi, Davies, O'Driscoll, Barret
Full Back - Foden, Kearney,Halfpenny, Hogg (All can cover various positions e.g Hogg- Centre, Foden, Halfpenny, and Kearney - Wing)

Leaving a squad of 47 with:
English: 9
Irish: 12
Scottish: 12
Welsh- 14

In my opinion it is a well balanced squad with the most equal amount of players from different nations for a while. Perhaps it's too big and through bias I presume I have perhaps overestimated the abilities of a few Scottish players.

If on form these could be in with a shout: Beattie, AW Jones, Hartley, Cusiter, Care, Weir, Laidlaw, Bradley Davies, Ian Evans, Jacobsen, Robshaw, Wood, Croft, Cole, Strettle and probably more which I can't remember

12 Scots ? realy?

Id have to agree with Denton , Grey and possibly Ford . But for the life of me i cant understand any other scotish picks , especially the Scottish Backs. Since when in recent years has any scottish Back-line played a open fast attacking game ?

All this talk about Visser he hasn't even played an international game Or been involved in any International set-up.

Greenwood hadn't played internationally in 97, Earls hadn't in 09, Ollie Smith hadn't in 05, as I said I am biased towards Scottish players and Rennie has been the standout 7 so far this 6n, on form Barclay is superb, Hogg ripped apart Wales at points on Sunday and give him a year at international level and he could be immense. The squad won't be this big and I got carried away obviously I might possibly be slightly biased towards Scots

123456789 wrote:Greenwood hadn't played internationally in 97, Earls hadn't in 09, Ollie Smith hadn't in 05, as I said I am biased towards Scottish players and Rennie has been the standout 7 so far this 6n, on form Barclay is superb, Hogg ripped apart Wales at points on Sunday and give him a year at international level and he could be immense. The squad won't be this big and I got carried away obviously I might possibly be slightly biased towards Scots

We are all entitled to our biases hahaand fair play , hadn't realised that Earls was uncapped in 09 i thought he was one of the stand out players

47 is miles too big. They only took 37 last time and that was against the most physical side in world rugby.

Visser may be a try scoring machine but defensively he's not too clever, he's going to need a lot of work on that aspect of his game before he can even count on a Scotland place. As a result, can't see him figuring for the Lions next year.

I think Visser will definitely feature. Gatland is the coach I would bet my right nut and he likes big physical and fit backs. Visser ticks all boxes.

Barring injury I can't look beyond Visser and North as wingers.

Ian Madigan - Dark horse

09 Mike Phillips
10 Ian Madigan
11 Tim Visser
12 Jonathan Davies
13 Manu Tuilagi
14 George North
15 Leigh Halfpenny

Stag that's some backline, but can we get the ball to play with and stop them scoring?

If it is true like so many on here keep saying, that Gatland will be in charge of the next lions tour, then their is no way will he take 47. 37 Maybe, and i would bet that most of the team will be Welsh players.

Never mind if they are on form or not.

That's a huge jump stag. Personally I'd go Murray priestland north Roberts Tuilagi Bowe Kearney. I'm happy to be quoted on this in 15 months time.

Also 47 players are you sure it's that many.

Foden, Kearney
Cuthbert, North, Bowe, Halfpenny
Roberts, Davies, Barrit, Turner Hall
Priestland, Sexton, Hook
Phillips, Murray, Care

Jenkins, Healy, Stevens
Best, Rees, Bennett,
Ross, Jones, James
AWJ, Gray, Davies, POC
Ryan Jones, Ferris, Lydiate
Faletau, Heaslip, O Brien
Warburton, Wood.

WillyGilly wrote:
Also 47 players are you sure it's that many.

No it isn't. 123456789 suggested a 47 player squad and others have disagreed with that squad size (although in fairness 123456789 did say initially that it might be too big). It was 37 last time.

Majestic, good point on form. Do you, like me, think that the last 2 Lions squads and teams have been spoiled by coaches picking favourites from their own countries squad rather than form players?

Who did Sir Ian pick that you wouldn't?

Justified Sinner - 2005 yes.

2001 = No
2009 = No

I don't expect 2013 will be any different. Some people will claim coaches are picking favourites.

justified sinner wrote:Majestic, good point on form. Do you, like me, think that the last 2 Lions squads and teams have been spoiled by coaches picking favourites from their own countries squad rather than form players?

2005 I can agree with it was just an RWC 03 reunion for the english but 09 I think was a genuinely good squad the only problem I had with it was the lack of Armitage at the time as he was playing very well.

Ian McGeechan's book Lion Man is an interesting read about how to build a winning Lions squad. He points out some of the mistakes the likes of Sir Clive Woodward have made on recent tours, including taking too big a squad and therefore failing to create a close knit group of players. McGeechan admits to sometimes not taking certain players who would expect to be picked because of their potential to disrupt the squad harmony and not behave as Lions should.

Cough*delon Atmitage*cough

I wasn't just thinking about Armitage.....

Cough*cipriani*cough

WillyGilly wrote:Cough*delon Atmitage*cough

But yet he picks Andy Powell? Not exactly a reliable lad

He's reliable when you get post drinking munches and the hotel bar is closed...

I will probably be on my own on this one but as this is a one off tour and not building towards a RWC then I would consider some older players possibly playing in France....Sheridan! He has currently played only 2 games since returning from injury, but if he returns to anything like his top form then he would in with a good shout. Whilst he was yellow carded on Sat he apparently kept Mujati quiet which is a good effort so early in his comeback.

It's worth pointing out that the 2009 tour eventually included 45 players (counting those called up as replacement for others), so I wounldn't say a list of 47 players is completely ridiculous!

My 37 man provisional squad (broadly ranked in order of preference for the test squad):
Hooker:
Ross Ford SCO
Matthew Rees WAL
Rory Best IRE

Prop:
Cian Healy IRE
Adam Jones WAL
Gethin Jenkins WAL
Dan Cole ENG
Alex Corbisiero ENG

Lock:
Richie Gray SCO
Luke Charteris WAL
Courtney Lawes ENG
Paul O'Connell IRE
Alun Wyn Jones WAL

Flanker:
Stephen Ferris IRE
Ross Rennie SCO
Kelly Brown SCO
Sam Warburton WAL
Sean O'Brien IRE

Number 8:
Jamie Heaslip IRE
David Denton SCO

Scrum-half:
Conor Murray IRE
Ben Youngs ENG
Mike Phillips WAL

Fly-half:
Jonathan Sexton IRE
Rhys Priestland WAL

Centre:
Jonathan Davies WAL
Jamie Roberts WAL
Keith Earls IRE
Manu Tuilagi ENG
Max Evans SCO

Wing:
George North WAL
Tim Visser SCO
Tommy Bowe IRE
Chris Ashton ENG

Fullback:
Lee Halfpenny WAL
Ben Foden ENG
Stuart Hogg SCO

Plus a few reserves in case of injury:
Dylan Hartley ENG
Euan Murray SCO
Bradley Davies WAL
Toby Faletau WAL
Greig Laidlaw SCO
Toby Flood ENG
Brad Barrett ENG
Alex Cuthbert WAL
Rob Kearney IRE

IanBru wrote:It's worth pointing out that the 2009 tour eventually included 45 players (counting those called up as replacement for others), so I wounldn't say a list of 47 players is completely ridiculous!

I don't think that follows. An international side probably has 40 players in their squad at some point during the six nations. That doesn't mean it would be sensible to just pick a 40 man squad to begin with. If the squad was over 40 then it would be extremely difficult to build up squad unity and play the combinations together enough in that short space of time.

MacKnocked-on

I'm a fan of McGeechan and went to a number of the lions tour matches in 09 but personally I think he got the tour just as wrong as SCW did in 05.

SCW may get a pounding for his tour in 05 but he is the only European coach to take a NH side to the top of the game and was unbeaten home and away to 3N sides for 3 years... anyone else done that??? I don't even think Graham Henry can make such boasts.
As much as he had the players, he was responsible for much of the great things ENG did and he should get the credit.

Anyhow 09 was a failure in many ways... he had talent, was facing a inferior side to that of 05 IMO and made some awful picks and strategies. The tests were very close yet they were lost well before kick off in hindsight.

The lions were meant to face an inferior scrum but they got utterly destroyed. They chose Lee Mears to face a bok front row... Lee Mears, a player who has has never shined in a ENG jersey and is at best a club player... against historically the best scrummaging nation in the world.
They faced a hooker playing prop who is now laughed at for his medicore record in the position and Beast has never ever been a dominating scrummager bar that one game.

They chose players like Andy Powell, yet tried to make a point about not selecting disruptive players... if I recall they even had James Haskell and Danny Cipriani as official replacements in waiting... sort of destroys his point.

Ryan Jones, Keith Earls, Luke Fitzgerald, Lee Mears, Andy Powell and even Monye over Armitage... none of the those players should have travelled.

Personally I think NZ in 05 was always going to be tough... the 03 world cup side was in a death spiral due to injuries to key players and the other sides didn't have enough talent to mount a serious challenge to what was one of the sides of the decade.

In 09 on paper, the lions were the better side, the opposition was coached by a jester yet they were the ones who managed to win the series... the 3rd test was not taken seriously by the boks whatever anyone says... the fact that they started with Kirchner, Olivier & Ndugane (3 of the worst backs in bok history) says it all.

I like the idea of the OP, but Basically this seems to be pick everyone from all countries then drop the worst player in each positioon.

Fa0019,

Yea the Boks of 2009 were rubbish. I think the way that they only lost 1 game in the entire Trinations was apalling. It was utterly dreadful the way the Bulls won the Super 14 final by a whopping 61-17. Imagine winning a Heineken Cup final with that scoreline!

No way were the Boks poor. The Bulls walked the Super 14, the Boks easily won the Trinations leaving NZ and Aus for dust and they beat the Lions who I thought played excellent rugby.

You dont get lucky on so many counts.

thomh wrote:

IanBru wrote:It's worth pointing out that the 2009 tour eventually included 45 players (counting those called up as replacement for others), so I wouldn't say a list of 47 players is completely ridiculous!

I don't think that follows. An international side probably has 40 players in their squad at some point during the six nations. That doesn't mean it would be sensible to just pick a 40 man squad to begin with. If the squad was over 40 then it would be extremely difficult to build up squad unity and play the combinations together enough in that short space of time.

I get what you're saying - I suppose there's a difference between naming 40-odd players who could go on the tour (with the players in excess of 37 being the ones you'd expect to fill in for the inevitable injuries), and actually sending a squad of 47.

red_stag

The boks weren't a bad side in 09 bt they were far from spectacular and certainly inferior to the 05 ABs.
The boks may have won the 3N in 09 but both NZ and AUS had key injuries throughout the tournament... if I recall both McCaw & Carter hardly featured.

That same team went to the NH 1 month later and lost 4 out of 5 games (the sole win coming against Italy if I recall).

Other than that 3 month period PDV record was very poor.... SA came last in every other 3N he competed in and his NH autumn tours were near Rudi Straeuli disasters, not to mention their most recent RWC performances. If anything I thought SA in 09 were rather fortuitous that they suffered few if any injuries and their opposition were not so lucky. If all other sides had fielded their bext XV I'm sure history would have been rather different.... perhaps more like the years immediately before and after.

Don't get me wrong, the first 2 tests were classic rugby... but some of the tactical errors both in strategy and selection were terrible and IMO cost the series.
What I was stating was that McGeechan shouldn't be immune to criticism as good as the rugby that was sometimes played and that SCW sometimes gets an unfair bashing. Personally I feel that in 09 more than any series since 97... it was a series they really should have won and in my opinion, threw away.

Disruptive is different from being an idiot. Henson is disruptive. Powell is just an idiot. No problem with Powell going.

2009 On form Armitage should have gone, probably instead of Byrne but good as he was at that moment I cant imagine he would have done better than Keaney. Monye did well overall - there are always issues but he did score tries and I will remember that tackle he made on the prop for a long time.

The boks in 09 were by some distance the best team in the world. They had a great team and the lions did well to compete. The first two tests were what the sport was all about I thought.

As someone who was ambivalent to the concept of the lions after 05 I felt the SA leg rejuvenated it. It had everything. To compare it to the debacle that was 05 is idiotic.

With regards to the 2009 tour, Sir Ian Mcgeechan was the overall "BOSS" of the tour, but the rest of the Coaches was all from Wales, Gatland, Howley, Shaun Edwards. who picked mainly welsh players regardless of form, Shane Williams for one, now dont get me wrong normaly i would of said that Shane Williams should be in the squad, but in all honesty he was so out of form by the time the tour came/was names around he should never have gone. And dont get me started on those 2 trys he scored, My nan could have scored those trys using her zimmer frame to out run the oppo.

Who ever is in charge of the tour i do hope that they have an unbaised opinion on What players are chosen, and only pick the players that are on form, and not because that particualar player happens to play his rugby in the country that coach is from.

Props: A.Jones, Gethin Jenkins (Wales), Healy (Ireland), Cole (England, Murray (Scotland)
Hookers: Best (Ireland), Rees (Wales), Ford (Scotland)
Second Row: AWJ, Charteris, Davies (Wales), POC, DOC (Ireland), Gray (Scotland), Palmer (England)
Back row: SOB, Ferris, Heaslip (Ireland), Faletau, Lydiate, Warbs (Wales), Denton (Scotland)
Scrum Half: Phillips (Wales), Murray (Ireland), Blair (Scotland)
Fly Half: Sexton (Ireland), Preistland (Wales), Flood (England)
Wings: North, Cuthbert (Wales), Ashton (England), Bowe (Ireland)
Centres: Roberts, JD2 (Wales), O'driscoll (Ireland), Barritt (England)
Full Backs: 1/2p (Wales), Foden (England), Kearney (Ireland)

Wales: 16
England: 5
Scotland: 5
Ireland: 12

Based on Six nations so far that's the team i'd take. England and Scotland have the least quality players IMO, so 5 is not unreasonable at all. Wales high number is justified because you cannot say the ones i've named are extrodinary, like picking Hook or Peel, that would be biased. I supporse you could argue against Davies but he was our first choice lock before he got injured and allowed Charteris a chance. Ireland also have exceptional players and they linked well with the welsh boys in SA. Scotland haven't any backs I would take. Hogg has played one game and looked decent, doesn't warrant a spot with the Lions just yet. Visser hasn't played an international game I believe so I don't believe he could force his way into the team.