O'Connell & Murray out for rest of 6N

First topic message reminder :

Just announced that Paul O'Connell and Conor Murray are both out for the rest of the 6N.

POC - Damage to his medial collateral ligament and is out for 3 -6 weeks.

Murray - Bruising to his knee joint and is out for 3 - 4 weeks.

By the way the Ulster HC Semi is 5 weeks away.

It's official.

Tommy's coming home!!!!

Cheered me up no end that has!

He has signed? Thats a good signing for Ulster

eirebilly wrote:Ok he is what 32 now? People keep calling for BOD to comeback.

Right now, i feel that Paddy would do a better job than Dorce at 12.

Well said Billy, and from a Munsterman as well

Come the 6N Rava, i am an Irishman first and a Munsterman second.

I dont really mind what province they are from as long as they are the best for Ireland and to me, Paddy would and should walk into the side ahead of Dorce.

Rava wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Ok he is what 32 now? People keep calling for BOD to comeback.

Right now, i feel that Paddy would do a better job than Dorce at 12.

Well said Billy, and from a Munsterman as well

I'd say it's right easy (some might suggest it's even a duty) for a Munsterman to magnanimously suggest a Leinster man should give way to an Ulster man!

If i had longer arms i would be giving you a clip behing the ear Fly

SecretFly wrote:

Rava wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Ok he is what 32 now? People keep calling for BOD to comeback.

Right now, i feel that Paddy would do a better job than Dorce at 12.

Well said Billy, and from a Munsterman as well

I'd say it's right easy (some might suggest it's even a duty) for a Munsterman to magnanimously suggest a Leinster man should give way to an Ulster man!

The province the player is from is irrelevant. Unless it's clear a provincial combo really does work better due to familiarity. For example the Irish lineout once ran like a well oiled machine with Flannery, POC, DOC and Hayes moving seamlessly from red to green jersey.

However I thought that in 2009 the Lions Roberts/O'Driscoll combo was a far better partnership than the Irish D'arcy/O'Driscoll combo, despite the fact that the former had never played together and the latter were partners for a decade.

And the best performances of our backrow were in 2009 with Ferris (Ulster), Wallace (Munster), Heaslip (Leinster) all on form and working well together.

Feckless Rogue wrote:However I thought that in 2009 the Lions Roberts/O'Driscoll combo was a far better partnership than the Irish D'arcy/O'Driscoll combo, despite the fact that the former had never played together and the latter were partners for a decade.

The genesis of the present Welsh gameplan emerged from observations of that Roberts/O'Driscoll combo. Pity we don't have a coaching set up that could have seen the same potential for Ireland.

I hope TOL doesn't start but I probably would have brought him in ahead of Marshall. Boss should be ahead of TOL though. Murray was having a decent 6N, he is getting decent protection, Reddan seems to be gettign to rucks quicker and getting far better ball, Murray needs to whip the pack into shape. Stringer was the best at that. POC is a massive blow. Our lineout was a shambles at the weekend. Not all the blame lays with Rory, the lifting wasn't brilliant and the timing could have been better. We should have tried 6 a few times aswell.

I cant see TOL starting. It will be Redden. I agree in relation to Boss should have got the nod over TOL. Christ Id have Stringer over TOL.
I think our lineout will suffer greatly without POC and its not as if the Scots have a weak lineout.

According to B Fanning Best is a doubt now with a rib injury...................................................................

Jesus wept, it gets worse.

skippy wrote:I cant see TOL starting. It will be Redden. I agree in relation to Boss should have got the nod over TOL. Christ Id have Stringer over TOL.
I think our lineout will suffer greatly without POC and its not as if the Scots have a weak lineout.

+1

For sure. They have a major advantage over us there. Specially if Rory is out. Worrying times. But Cronin and Court have been great for us when given their chance. They reacted strongly and took their chance. Now is their time to steak a claim. Kidney has to fully utilise the whole squad, from the start, with 3 games in-row and with 2 tough ones to come. Cant keep battering the same XV out there in such a short space of time. Will miss POC and Murray bad. But also time for Reddan to get his No 1 spot back. And for Ryan to be the New POC. I know one is a tightead, the other a loosehead lock, but to me, that should be an inter-chagengeable skill at this level.

P.S. If we start TOL, Im grabbin me hat and coat for this 6-N and look forward to the HC QF's.

TOL will not start Gibbo.

I am slightly happy that Reddan gets to start, maybe now he can works some magic with Sexton.

eirebilly wrote:TOL will not start Gibbo.

I am slightly happy that Reddan gets to start, maybe now he can works some magic with Sexton.

I'd hope the two of those boys would keep whatever they might like to do in the privacy of their own home and just play the game! Not to be too pedantic about it...............

SecretFly wrote:

eirebilly wrote:TOL will not start Gibbo.

I am slightly happy that Reddan gets to start, maybe now he can works some magic with Sexton.

I'd hope the two of those boys would keep whatever they might like to do in the privacy of their own home and just play the game! Not to be too pedantic about it...............

Fly, you are a deviant sir. You relate alot of comments back to sex.

I like that

I think it's a given that Reddan will start on Saturday and alot of people are going to be perplexed as to why he won't play as well as when he comes on halfway through the 2nd half.

I'll bet that the ball he produces won't be anything as fast as the ball he produced against Italy, at the begining of the match anyway.

Did anyone notice that the speed of Reddans delivery when he came on against France wasn't noticeably faster than what Murray was producing??

And take away that speed of pass and your left with a potentially inferior scrumhalf in my opinion.

Murray will be missed.

Blame it on the Carry On movies I watched as a kid.

You couldn't get a line off...........................em............................. you couldn't say a thing in those movies without it having a double-entendre Ooh Err meaning.

i do not think this TOL will start.

i presumed most people figured i was on a wind up a few pages back when i said i met gerry thornley buying falafel on my lunch break and he confirmed to me in person o leary will start : )))).

we are such drama queens.

MunsterMac wrote:I think it's a given that Reddan will start on Saturday and alot of people are going to be perplexed as to why he won't play as well as when he comes on halfway through the 2nd half.

I'll bet that the ball he produces won't be anything as fast as the ball he produced against Italy, at the begining of the match anyway.

Did anyone notice that the speed of Reddans delivery when he came on against France wasn't noticeably faster than what Murray was producing??

And take away that speed of pass and your left with a potentially inferior scrumhalf in my opinion.

Murray will be missed.

Correct all round except in the sense that you suggest how Murray plays and how Redden plays is based on their own instincts. I say I wouldn't really blame Murray for his alleged shortfalls any more than I'd blame Redden for not being able to sustain constant speed for two halves. Murray was told his job was to soften up in his first half against Italy. Redden was part of a containment plan against the French when he came on. I wouldn't blame either - I'd say they were/are getting specific orders.

Secretfly.

Don't get me wrong. I've always said that the way Murray plays for Ireland (slow delivery, hanging around at the base of rucks gently caressing the ball an inch this way, an inch the other with his studs etc) is more to do with the instructions he gets than his own inadequacies.

My point is that there was a silly knee-jerk reaction to the performance of both SHs after the Italy match with it boiling down to Murray is holding back the Irish backline while Reddan gets it moving and therefore should start.

It’s nowhere near as simple as that I’m afraid and as I said I think Murray is going to be huge loss for the remainder of the 6N.

Murray is a big loss, there is no denying that at all. He has played very well. His distribution may not be as quick as Reddan's but he is definitely better in the defence.

MunsterMac wrote:
My point is that there was a silly knee-jerk reaction to the performance of both SHs after the Italy match with it boiling down to Murray is holding back the Irish backline while Reddan gets it moving and therefore should start.

It’s nowhere near as simple as that I’m afraid and as I said I think Murray is going to be huge loss for the remainder of the 6N.

I was critical of the gameplan (such as I felt it was) for the Italy game. I said I think it gives too much credit to Italy to suggest you need an entire 1st half to 'break them down' - the orders from above. I also said at the time that I wouldn't be too quick to lay blame at the hands of Murray. His role seemed to be to slide the ball over and back at a canter speed so that the Irish forwards could do their impact work and feel for weaknesses that might be exploited in the second half..and also to let all Italians know they're in a hard hitting game (softening them up)

I agree too that Murray is a loss. Because from here on in we really will need a big, defence capable scrumhalf to contain Scotland and England. If Redden is the scrumhalf, wisdom would suggest we change the gameplan (especially at home) and go for a high tempo, much looser gameplan to exploit Redden's more speedy delivery and less resiliant defence.

Was Reddan not first choice scrum half a while back?

Actually O'Leary was more our stable scrumhalf a while back. Redden was always a coming in or going out kind of guy.

Boss is more a halfway house between Murray and Redden (Leinster use him mostly for away games - where defending is emphasised more than attack)

Reddan has really only been first choice due to the misfortune of others.

TOL was first choice until he picked up that injury before the Lions tour and since he came back his form has been poor.

And just when Reddan looked like he was finally getting his chance Murray appeared out of nowhere for the WC.

murray is a loss POC is a big loss, some perspective here gents. murray is marginally ahead of reddan but reddan can certainly do a job in the next two games. he also has a good relationship with Sexton.

only reason we need a tough tackling big scrum half is we are the only team in the 6 nations whose game plan involves not having the ball and effectively hitting teams on the counter attack

we must impose ourselves on scotland and attack from the off. if we show them too much respect and hand them the ball to play with they could surprise us. we have failed to convert two leads to wins so far.

laidlaw though an improvement on previous scots fly halves is weak in defence. we need to be sending runners down his throat (ferris,sob etc). then quick ball and spin it. reddan may well be more suitable.

dublin_dave wrote:murray is a loss POC is a big loss, some perspective here gents. murray is marginally ahead of reddan but reddan can certainly do a job in the next two games. he also has a good relationship with Sexton.

only reason we need a tough tackling big scrum half is we are the only team in the 6 nations whose game plan involves not having the ball and effectively hitting teams on the counter attack

we must impose ourselves on scotland and attack from the off. if we show them too much respect and hand them the ball to play with they could surprise us. we have failed to convert two leads to wins so far.

laidlaw though an improvement on previous scots fly halves is weak in defence. we need to be sending runners down his throat (ferris,sob etc). then quick ball and spin it. reddan may well be more suitable.

Scotland is also another game in yet another Ireland crusade this season. The 6N championship is gone. But there is still a real and important imperative for Ireland to keep working on - and that is returning Lansdowne to the 'home' venus it once was.

We need to show visiting teams that things will be much more ruthless in Ireland's home patch than they might encounter elsewhere. The Irish team have a marker to lay down. Lansdowne must again be a place visiting teams fear to come to. And that means that if we can bring about a win against Scotland then a win is not enough. We have to try to make Scotland suffer... we have to try to make it a tough, tough day for them. The imperative is to score and score as highly as we can within the 80 minutes.

That's not saying we have a right to win or that we will win, but if we have the quality to win then this Stadium we call home should not be satisfied with just a win - but a message to all comers that we are reclaiming it.

SecretFly wrote:

dublin_dave wrote:murray is a loss POC is a big loss, some perspective here gents. murray is marginally ahead of reddan but reddan can certainly do a job in the next two games. he also has a good relationship with Sexton.

only reason we need a tough tackling big scrum half is we are the only team in the 6 nations whose game plan involves not having the ball and effectively hitting teams on the counter attack

we must impose ourselves on scotland and attack from the off. if we show them too much respect and hand them the ball to play with they could surprise us. we have failed to convert two leads to wins so far.

laidlaw though an improvement on previous scots fly halves is weak in defence. we need to be sending runners down his throat (ferris,sob etc). then quick ball and spin it. reddan may well be more suitable.

Scotland is also another game in yet another Ireland crusade this season. The 6N championship is gone. But there is still a real and important imperative for Ireland to keep working on - and that is returning Lansdowne to the 'home' venus it once was.

We need to show visiting teams that things will be much more ruthless in Ireland's home patch than they might encounter elsewhere. The Irish team have a marker to lay down. Lansdowne must again be a place visiting teams fear to come to. And that means that if we can bring about a win against Scotland then a win is not enough. We have to try to make Scotland suffer... we have to try to make it a tough, tough day for them. The imperative is to score and score as highly as we can within the 80 minutes.

That's not saying we have a right to win or that we will win, but if we have the quality to win then this Stadium we call home should not be satisfied with just a win - but a message to all comers that we are reclaiming it.

I often wonder about this. The four provinces home grounds have been the grave yard of many a great team, Tigers and Quinns this year for example. No club team likes coming to Ireland because they know its going to be a hard day at the office. Dose this indirectly point at the players commitment to the green shirt (Not that I doubt their commitment its just an observation) or is it the fans that big international games attract not creating a hostile environment. Teams should be nervous coming to Lansdowne but with our current win ratio that is unlikely.

skippy wrote:
I often wonder about this. The four provinces home grounds have been the grave yard of many a great team, Tigers and Quinns this year for example. No club team likes coming to Ireland because they know its going to be a hard day at the office. Dose this indirectly point at the players commitment to the green shirt (Not that I doubt their commitment its just an observation) or is it the fans that big international games attract not creating a hostile environment. Teams should be nervous coming to Lansdowne but with our current win ratio that is unlikely.

That's why the method of winning at home from here on in really is very important. We started with Italy (some might say the easiest one) but we have to have it as an objective for all games in Lansdowne. The method of the win, both to make a point and to get the casual Irish fans familiar with a game played with ruthless intensity so that they can more readily become familiar with being in the mood to roar.

A win against Scotland in Lansdowne by five or six points won't be doing anything to regain that Stadium as our genuine Home ground.

Ach, i am starting to get confident. Ireland will crunch Scotland by 20

When the new Lansdowne opened, we talked about making it a fortress.

But we've only won 4 games out of ten there. Three of the wins were over Italy, Samoa and a depleted Argentina. The win over England when they won the Championship has been the only notable performance against a decent side. In 10 games in our new stadium.

In our short time here we've already lost to South Africa, New Zealand, Wales, England and France twice.

Scotland make their first visit next week and will want to add to their win in Croke Park. I doubt they'll be very intimidated by fortress Lansdowne to be honest. Especially since the crowd goes completely silent when Ireland aren't winning.

What happened to the old Landsdowne roar?

Feckless Rogue wrote:When the new Lansdowne opened, we talked about making it a fortress.

But we've only won 4 games out of ten there. Three of the wins were over Italy, Samoa and a depleted Argentina. The win over England when they won the Championship has been the only notable performance against a decent side. In 10 games in our new stadium.

In our short time here we've already lost to South Africa, New Zealand, Wales, England and France twice.

Scotland make their first visit next week and will want to add to their win in Croke Park. I doubt they'll be very intimidated by fortress Lansdowne to be honest. Especially since the crowd goes completely silent when Ireland aren't winning.

What happened to the old Landsdowne roar?

That's my point. It's a tough ask, but the only ones to turn around the lack of atmosphere at Lansdowne is the players and the game they play. The crowd won't or can't help until they see the effort. If effort and conviction at home goes up the gears again then you'll have the right mood develop at Lansdowne again. If a side can be dissected and left bleeding on the field - then that's the attitude a home game should bring. Put the boot in and make the visiting team suffer.

eirebilly wrote:Ach, i am starting to get confident. Ireland will crunch Scotland by 20

I've made a note of that billy

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Ach, i am starting to get confident. Ireland will crunch Scotland by 20

I've made a note of that billy

You are not allowed to remind people of predictions made when they are living in a fantsy world...

Not cool AsBo