John Beattie - Irish Provinces a step ahead of the rest.

by Artful_Dodger Mon 30 Apr - 16:06

First topic message reminder :

John Beattie says that other countries should learn from Ireland's success at provincial level.

He points to the provinces being ahead when it comes grass roots rugby, foreign signings, the correct number of teams (4) and coaching. He also takes about an 'X Factor' in Irish rugby which he describes as "a strength in depth and a coaching pool of talent that is multi-national and highly paid."

I agree with him on a lot of these points, grass roots rugby in Ireland has rocketed in the past 10 years, in term of the number of schools that play it and the number of fans there are now. Foreign signings, we are definitely leading the way, granted the French clubs buy some brilliant players as well, but the Scottish, English and Welsh teams don't seem to sign the same calibre of player very often, they seem more likely to buy a larger number of good players instead of a small number of brilliant players. We have what he calls a 'handy number of teams' and with regard to coaching we have top coaches not just at the provinces but at other top clubs as well (Bradley at Edinburgh, O'Shea at Harlequins, McCall at Saracens etc.)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/johnbeattie/2012/04/irish_lead_the_way_thanks_to_s.html

by LordDowlais Tue 1 May - 19:25

Feckless Rogue wrote:But why didn't world class All Black, Jerry Collins, drag Osreys to the HC final, the way you think Brad Thorn has clearly dragged 19 average Irishmen to the final? Hmmm. It just doesn't add up does it?

You really think Jerry Collins was world class ? He was yellow carded more time than he was on the field, and was just a big bully. He was one that truly did not live up to his reputation. thumbsup

Also at the time, there were to many big time Charlies at the Ospreys, but I do think they are building something special there now. thumbsup

by **rodders** Tue 1 May - 19:26

LordDowlais wrote:They have lost to the Ospreys home and away this year rodders.

When I said everyday.... I meant weekdays only ...... Whistle

by LordDowlais Tue 1 May - 19:30

Also, I do not think Brad Thorn dragged your team to final, I am going to say this one last time in order to prevent my head blowing up, I fully acknowledge the world class Irish players at Leinster and the other provinces, but all you lot want to ignore the fact that the NIQ player truly do make a difference. A difference between winning and loosing tight games where margines are to close to get a fag paper between them. They galvanise the provinces in a way the Irish players cannot galvanise the national side.

by LordDowlais Tue 1 May - 19:31

rodders wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:They have lost to the Ospreys home and away this year rodders.

When I said everyday.... I meant weekdays only ......

good repost. clap

by asoreleftshoulder Tue 1 May - 20:00

LordDowlais wrote:Also, I do not think Brad Thorn dragged your team to final, I am going to say this one last time in order to prevent my head blowing up, I fully acknowledge the world class Irish players at Leinster and the other provinces, but all you lot want to ignore the fact that the NIQ player truly do make a difference. A difference between winning and loosing tight games where margines are to close to get a fag paper between them. They galvanise the provinces in a way the Irish players cannot galvanise the national side.

Can't agree with you,if the national side was attempting to play a similar gameplan to Leinster or Ulster then maybe you'd have something but when Ireland play against any team in the top 8 our main attacking weapon is the garryowen,it's also plan B.The Irish national team doesn't use quick ruck ball it prefers to slow things down and set up pods for one out passes which get little or no gorund,the ball carrying of O'Brien,Ferris,Heaslip,Healy and Best is wasted as they never get to run at a defense that isn't set.Our backs pass the ball straight out to the wing with little or no changing of angles or use of preplanned moves.

If we were trying and failing to do the things the provincial teams are doing then I would agree it was because the players aren't up to it but until our management change the gameplan I can only conclude that they are the major problem.

by Feckless Rogue Tue 1 May - 20:11

For me it's beyond doubt that the Irish management is the problem. Like I said before, if you put POC, Bowe and Best in the Leinster team would they suddenly start playing like Ireland do? No.

by Guest Tue 1 May - 20:38

Who cares? Doesn't take a genius to tell you why irish rugby is doing well, Ulster score sheet the other day tells you the full story.
Leave them to it, only hurting themselves in the long run.

by **rodders** Tue 1 May - 20:46

I'm not sure the 30 odd Irish players who'll be running out in Twickenham on May 19th would agree with you view Wink

by Artful_Dodger Tue 1 May - 22:11

viewtothegym wrote:Who cares? Doesn't take a genius to tell you why irish rugby is doing well, Ulster score sheet the other day tells you the full story.
Leave them to it, only hurting themselves in the long run.

Oooof, one of the sorest posts I've read on here which is some going.

by **profitius** Tue 1 May - 23:33

viewtothegym wrote:Who cares? Doesn't take a genius to tell you why irish rugby is doing well, Ulster score sheet the other day tells you the full story.
Leave them to it, only hurting themselves in the long run.

I don't get it?

by HammerofThunor Tue 1 May - 23:54

profitius wrote:
viewtothegym wrote:Who cares? Doesn't take a genius to tell you why irish rugby is doing well, Ulster score sheet the other day tells you the full story.
Leave them to it, only hurting themselves in the long run.

I don't get it?

He's making the point that all the Ulster points were scored by South Africans. After all, everyone who knows nothing about rugby knows that the point scorer is the most important and rugby isn't much of a team sport.

by mankiaow Wed 2 May - 3:37

HammerofThunor wrote:
profitius wrote:
viewtothegym wrote:Who cares? Doesn't take a genius to tell you why irish rugby is doing well, Ulster score sheet the other day tells you the full story.
Leave them to it, only hurting themselves in the long run.

I don't get it?

He's making the point that all the Ulster points were scored by South Africans. After all, everyone who knows nothing about rugby knows that the point scorer is the most important and rugby isn't much of a team sport.

That's actually a fair point, but only the the context of Ulster, who, with respect, have only come good recently. Stating that it is, in the main, the case for Irish rugby is an over-generalisation and shows a lack of knowledge of the game in Ireland.

In response to the question of whether other teams should follow the Irish provinces example, the answer is undeniably yes. The reality is that teams cannot rely on indigenous players alone when the laws allow teams to employ foreigners to bolster their squads. While this is not the ideal situation for the short term good, in the medium to long term it makes complete sense.

On the one hand you can say that bringing in foreigners deprives native players of first team, top class game time but on the other, you can achieve success in the short term while allowing the experience these players bring to rub off on those younger up-and-coming players. Add to this the increase in popularity that success brings and the resulting income which can be used to develop the game, and retain top class native players within the set-up. Ulster will look to achieve success first and gradually develop a player base comprising local or Irish based players. This, in time, is in the interests of the game as a whole on the island. Munster, and lately, Leinster have shown the way in this regard. Ulster have duly followed and look where they are now.

So at the end of the day, random opinions as to why there are two Irish teams at the pinnacle of the European club game count for nothing. The provinces have a clear plan as to where they want to be in the future and if a few foreigners are required to achieve some short term success, while at the same time making an invaluable contribution to the development of the game here, then so be it.

If other unions and their clubs can't see that, it's their loss. Maybe you have some other formula for success. But so far, there is scant evidence of it.

by **Notch** Wed 2 May - 5:54

Indeed Thunor! Laugh

Here's a stat- 16 of Ulsters points came from the scrum and 6 out of 8 of our forwards were Irish...

To be honest, Ulsters presence in the Heineken Cup final is a surprising bonus. We've made a number of high profile signings to a) make us competitive with Europes top teams (this has been a massive success so far) and b) develop homegrown players. Ulster have a few top class homegrown stars- Best, Ferris, Wallace, Trimble etc.- but not enough to build a truly top class side of almost all Academy products ala Leinster or Toulouse. Hence b)- by bringing in world class players and raising the level Ulster are competing at, we hope they can influence our younger players.

Ruan Pienaar is partnered by 20 year-old outhalf Paddy Jackson; very much a case of learning from the best for the young 10. Adam Macklin and Declan Fitzpatrick got a chance to shine at tighthead in the absence of John Afoa- their scrummaging has improved notably under his mentorship. Johann Muller- our tighthead lock and lineout general- is fulfilling a double brief as Club Captain and Forwards Coach. For all of the high-profile signings, coaching masterclasses and one-to-one sessions with Academy players are part of their contract.

I find criticism of Ulsters recruitment policy amusing. Other teams in the Pro12 are also recruiting foreign players in similar numbers, but they are not good enough to either achieve short-term success or leave a long-term legacy. Hence the lack of spiteful comments from fans of other teams about Cardiff Blues managing to land Andi Kyriacou for next season, or Ospreys acquisition of Chauncey O'Toole earlier this year...

The current regime has stated their ambition is to put Ulster at the very pinnacle of European rugby; where Toulouse, Munster, Leinster and Leicester Tigers have ventured before. But they didn't expect us to reach the Heineken Cup final so soon. You see the real fruit of Ulsters overseas recruitment policy is yet to fully ripen; it isn't the players we have now, it's the guys who will come into the team over the next two or three years. It's the steady improvement in the quality of coaches we have and the depth of our squad getting better and better. It's not the fact we're in the final; it's the fact that the young lads in the team are going to start getting used to playing in these kind of games, and that hard-edged winning Saffer mentality is rubbing off on them...

I think Leinster are favourites to win this year. They are where we are trying to get to, where we want to be in three to five years. But we should deliver another Final in that timescale and I'm confident we will add to our success in 1999 in the not too distant future.

by LordDowlais Wed 2 May - 7:33

O.k so you are all blaming poor old Declan Kidney for the failings of the national side. Rolling Eyes

This is the man who won you your first grand slam in a bazzilion years. He did this with the same players that Eddie O'Sullivan had as well. Does Declan Kidney tell his players to make stupid decisions, does he tell his players to drop the ball, does he tell them to give away penalty's. Perhaps what people on here need to realise, is the fact that there are certain levels at which you play at. Firstly, you have to play at a higher level when representing your province/region/club, then you have to play at a higher level when playing in the HC, then you have to play to a higher level again when you step up to international grade. Perhaps "SOME" of the Irish players cannot complete the step up to international level like some of the Irish posters on here think they should. At the end of the day, you can only take a horse to water. thumbsup

by SecretFly Wed 2 May - 7:50

Question One for Mr Dowlais:

Would you, Lord, - would you have Declan Kidney as your head coach for Wales based on his overseeing of what Ireland do at International level (on a technical level)? And no, don't tell me you wouldn't have him because you already have the best International coach in Europe. That would be humourous to an extent but not when I can pre-empt it. Wink

So don't make a sweeping statement, just answer that question firstly and honestly. If you didn't have Gatland would your next port of call be Declan Kidney?

As for the higher and higher and higher theory (sounds like a Disco song BTW)...as far as that theory goes,
ONE: ask that of the lordly and stately Welsh internationals who seem to miss a beat on the HC bit of 'higher'
TWO: tell that to the many journalists (from all countries) who actually feel the HC (at it's highest level) is now of a much higher standard and intensity than the usual fare at International 6N level. And why the hell wouldn't it be when you think about it, given that there are WC winners sprinkled throughout the sides that compete at the highest level in HC. No, I'm afraid you have to be more inense and prepared to break your bones in HC (if you want to win it) than in the phone-in performances of many players from different countries at 6N level.

I don't like that but I do acknowledge it

by LordDowlais Wed 2 May - 8:28

If Declan Kidney was available when we had Gareth Jenkins in charge I would have taken him within a heartbeat after watching what he was doing with Munster. But instead we had another ex Ireland head coach who you deemed not good enough with all your world class players. As for the higher and higher statement we have about twenty players who can step up at international level, and the rest are good players who get lifted by them. If you divide that twenty up you get 5 per region, sadly the other players they have with them at the regions are either too young or just not good enough, this is why we fail at the HC. Perhaps you have hit the nail on the head with your last statement about the HC being at a higher level than international level. When did club/region/province rugby ever be at a higher standard than the pinnacle that is international rugby, if this is your outlook in Ireland then your national side will never be as good as you think it should be. thumbsup

by mankiaow Wed 2 May - 8:39

LordDowlais wrote:O.k so you are all blaming poor old Declan Kidney for the failings of the national side. This is the man who won you your first grand slam in a bazzilion years. He did this with the same players that Eddie O'Sullivan had as well. Does Declan Kidney tell his players to make stupid decisions, does he tell his players to drop the ball, does he tell them to give away penalty's. Perhaps what people on here need to realise, is the fact that there are certain levels at which you play at. Firstly, you have to play at a higher level when representing your province/region/club, then you have to play at a higher level when playing in the HC, then you have to play to a higher level again when you step up to international grade. Perhaps "SOME" of the Irish players cannot complete the step up to international level like some of the Irish posters on here think they should. At the end of the day, you can only take a horse to water.

You must stay up all night thinking up these WUMs.

What a Crock!

by LordDowlais Wed 2 May - 8:48

Why is this a WUM ? Just becuase I do not agree with your vast knowledge of rugby does not mean I am trying to wind you up. Perhaps it is the fact that you are so blinkkered into thinking that your Irish players are actually better than what they are.

by **rodders** Wed 2 May - 8:50

LordDowlais wrote:If Declan Kidney was available when we had Gareth Jenkins in charge I would have taken him within a heartbeat after watching what he was doing with Munster.

I suspect Kidneys defense orientated gameplan wouldn't go down to well with the Welsh public. I'd also bet that George North, Warburton, Davies etc. wouldn't get a look in...Wales would be selecting Garth Thomas for his 200th cap, playing Ryan Jones at openside and wheeling Tom Shanklin out on one leg.....

clap

Great post Notch.

by LordDowlais Wed 2 May - 8:55

rodders wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:If Declan Kidney was available when we had Gareth Jenkins in charge I would have taken him within a heartbeat after watching what he was doing with Munster.

I suspect Kidneys defense orientated gameplan wouldn't go down to well with the Welsh public. I'd also bet that George North, Warburton, Davies etc. wouldn't get a look in...Wales would be selecting Garth Thomas for his 200th cap, playing Ryan Jones at openside and wheeling Tom Shanklin out on one leg.....

Great post Notch.

O.k then, if you get your way and Declan Kidney gets the spansh archer, then who do you think can take these world beaters on to the next level. Who ever it is had better do it or you will all be calling for his head on the chopping block.

by Mickado Wed 2 May - 9:03

Some posters claim that Irish provincial success is a result of the quality of rugby in our league being low.

Maybe Welsh international success is a result of their regions being dire…?
Or maybe their regions are dire because they’re poorly coached and don’t recruit well and their national coach is very very good.

by **rodders** Wed 2 May - 9:06

Lord its not just Kidney...its the IRFU and their conservative approach to selection coupled with Kidneys negative approach to tactics.

For example D'arcy has just been given a 2 year IRFU contract which basically guarantees him Ireland selection for another 2 seasons, despite being 32 and clearly past his prime.

The NIQs are a red herring because even if Irish players are getting selected for their provinces they are still unlikely to get selected for Ireland.

Ireland is not on an even playing field at National level because of the short sighted approach of the IRFU and that, along with the political and provincial divisions within Ireland, is why the National team is playing so poorly relative to the provinces imo.

by mankiaow Wed 2 May - 9:11

LordDowlais wrote:Why is this a WUM ? Just becuase I do not agree with your vast knowledge of rugby does not mean I am trying to wind you up. Perhaps it is the fact that you are so blinkkered into thinking that your Irish players are actually better than what they are.

I don't think I have a 'vast knowledge of rugby' whatever that is. But I'm pretty sure I know more about Irish rugby than you do.

It's a WUM because you are deliberately trying to wind up Irish supporters.

And you are shaky ground when takling about overating one's own players.

by geoff998rugby Wed 2 May - 9:22

viewtothegym wrote:Who cares? Doesn't take a genius to tell you why irish rugby is doing well, Ulster score sheet the other day tells you the full story.
Leave them to it, only hurting themselves in the long run.

Spoken by someone who knows nothing about Ulster rugby.

The NIQ players are there to help develop an exciting crops of youngsters who are coming through Ulster rugby. The intent is that as their contracts end the local players will developed sufficiently to take over the mantel of the NIQ. The exxperience of the NIQ players is making our local lads better players - as they themselves acknowledge.
As far as Afoa and Muller are concerned that is happening. Pienaer is the one player who is irreplaceable.
You do know that these are the only 3 players signed up for next year who have played for another country dont you ?

To take a look at the score a different way 19 of the points came from a dominant scrum. Alos 6 front row forwards selected were Irish.

Against Leinster 15 players will be Ulster born and bred, 3 Irish through other means and 5 NIQ - not too shabby

by geoff998rugby Wed 2 May - 9:24

If we have a level playing field, with respect to the impact of Non nationals playing, the facts are simple.

Best side in Europe with non Nationals - Leinster
Best side in Europe without any non Nationals - Leinster

by geoff998rugby Wed 2 May - 9:28

LordDowlais wrote:
rodders wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:If Declan Kidney was available when we had Gareth Jenkins in charge I would have taken him within a heartbeat after watching what he was doing with Munster.

I suspect Kidneys defense orientated gameplan wouldn't go down to well with the Welsh public. I'd also bet that George North, Warburton, Davies etc. wouldn't get a look in...Wales would be selecting Garth Thomas for his 200th cap, playing Ryan Jones at openside and wheeling Tom Shanklin out on one leg.....

Great post Notch.

O.k then, if you get your way and Declan Kidney gets the spansh archer, then who do you think can take these world beaters on to the next level. Who ever it is had better do it or you will all be calling for his head on the chopping block.

If Kidney had taken over Wales you would not have all these youngsters playing.

Dont put words in Irish supporters mouths we are not claing we are 'world beaters' merely that we should be playing a lot better than we are.
Anyone who watches Irish rugby closely knows that

by LordDowlais Wed 2 May - 9:44

I am walking away from this, you are all blinkered, the lot of you. You got rid of Gatland, you got rid of Eddie O'Sullivan, now you want to get rid of Declan Kidney, the three head coaches mentioned above all had more or less the same players, it could be argued that the previous two had the better batch with the forwards you had and the likes of O'Driscoll being younger, but it is not the players it is everyone else's fault. I wonder what any of those coaches could do with better players, oh wait......................... only joking, please dont tar and feather me.

by geoff998rugby Wed 2 May - 9:50

Cheerio cheerio ............

by **rodders** Wed 2 May - 9:53

Dowlis they did not have more or less the same players....what the feic are you on about?

Declan Kidney has a far worse W/L ratio than EOS. He's down to about 50% after two disasterous seasons.

How many coaches have Wales had in the same period (2000-2012)?

by HammerofThunor Wed 2 May - 9:54

geoff998rugby wrote:
viewtothegym wrote:Who cares? Doesn't take a genius to tell you why irish rugby is doing well, Ulster score sheet the other day tells you the full story.
Leave them to it, only hurting themselves in the long run.

Spoken by someone who knows nothing about ~~Ulster~~ rugby.

Or at least is pretending not to know anything to WUM

by SecretFly Wed 2 May - 10:04

Lord, you DO remember the Six Nations?

You DO remember that Gatland and Wales won it?

You do remember that they got the Slam? Five games from five. Impressive.....

...............when you think of all the bunk they had to grind through to get it. France, England, Ireland, and Scotland. Dross. A bunch of good coaches with bad players. Pathetic stuff altogether.

And you claim greatness because of that?

Now remember the other bit about the Six Nations. Ireland's hopeless players (coached by an oppressed genius) managed to score more tries than the Slammers and score more gaming points than the Slammers. Highest try score in the competition, highest points score in the competition. No hopers dragged through by a demented genius.

I prefer see that tally, and subsequent HC performances as more an omenous sign of just what these players could do if they found the skill and dexterity they are so lacking right now if they dispensed with the more-sinned-against-than-sinning genius coach and picked just a normal human one. Wink

by LordDowlais Wed 2 May - 10:09

Aaaaargh, I cannot walk away. steam

So what you are saying secretfly is when Ireland did well, like when you tonked Italy, it was the players using there skill and dexterity, but when they were loosing,like against England it was the coaches fault. Whistle

by Standulstermen Wed 2 May - 10:13

We have been quite fortunate with Italy. Usually they are up for games against us but certainly in the 6nations it coincided with their worst performance. I'm not getting into a massive debate but a blind man and a galloping horse can see that at the top level Ireland has issues with coaching and also an inherently conservative approach (d'arcys renewal being a perfect example)

by SecretFly Wed 2 May - 10:35

LordDowlais wrote:Aaaaargh, I cannot walk away. So what you are saying secretfly is when Ireland did well, like when you tonked Italy, it was the players using there skill and dexterity, but when they were loosing,like against England it was the coaches fault.

No Lord, you misread and over-read appallingly often, sir Wink

What I said was what I said. The terrible lads with the fiddle-fuddle hand-to-eye co-ordination, and the mucky wellies feet, and the begorrah/begash hoofing of the ball, and the becripes and bethehokey breakdown nonsense, and the spud-dirt slippy fingers...them lads there with the tortured and afflicted genius coach that you'd only love to be with yis there in Wales, THEM lads, the very same pack of eejits - scored more tries than any team in the Six nations this year, and the most points; and a good few handfuls of them are in the HC final, and some of them might very well be in the Pro12 final.

I'm saying it shouldn't be bloody well allowed that a bunch of muck-rakers should abuse a gifted coach so much, laugh at all his insightful instructions and still end up doing more of what rugby is meant to do than most players in Europe, either at International or club level - that is to entertain with tries, points and winning. Wink

by Guest Wed 2 May - 10:58

I do love the word knowledge especially when it gets thrown around by people clearly still yet to hit puberty,
It's not rocket science on why irish rugby has done well in Europe but the one eyed prefer to see it otherwise.

by SecretFly Wed 2 May - 11:07

viewtothegym wrote:I do love the word knowledge especially when it gets thrown around by people clearly still yet to hit puberty,
It's not rocket science on why irish rugby has done well in Europe but the one eyed prefer to see it otherwise.

Enlighten the afflicted, View...Oh please do. I know I've heard it all before but I do so love hearing it all again. It's Nacewa, isn't it! He's the Holy Grail. I have an altar devoted to him and I'm lighting the scented candle as you speak for my morning service.

by Mickado Wed 2 May - 11:22

SecretFly wrote:
viewtothegym wrote:I do love the word knowledge especially when it gets thrown around by people clearly still yet to hit puberty,
It's not rocket science on why irish rugby has done well in Europe but the one eyed prefer to see it otherwise.

Enlighten the afflicted, View...Oh please do. I know I've heard it all before but I do so love hearing it all again. It's Nacewa, isn't it! He's the Holy Grail. I have an altar devoted to him and I'm lighting the scented candle as you speak for my morning service.

Just because that's true for some of us doesn't mean that.... ah screw it, who am i kidding. It's all about Isa. He's the reason that Munster won the cup twice as well.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 2 May - 11:29

Lads, come on now, it was Rocky first time, Wagga second, and it'll be Isa's turn this year - pls get it right, my alter alteration business is relying upon you

by LordDowlais Wed 2 May - 11:29

Mickado wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
viewtothegym wrote:I do love the word knowledge especially when it gets thrown around by people clearly still yet to hit puberty,
It's not rocket science on why irish rugby has done well in Europe but the one eyed prefer to see it otherwise.

Enlighten the afflicted, View...Oh please do. I know I've heard it all before but I do so love hearing it all again. It's Nacewa, isn't it! He's the Holy Grail. I have an altar devoted to him and I'm lighting the scented candle as you speak for my morning service.

Just because that's true for some of us doesn't mean that.... ah screw it, who am i kidding. It's all about Isa. He's the reason that Munster won the cup twice as well.

Nah, the reason why you won the HC was because of Declan Kidney. The coach who won you your first grand slam in over half a century and you now want his head in a noose. Rolling Eyes

by LordDowlais Wed 2 May - 11:36

SecretFly wrote:Lord, you DO remember the Six Nations?

You DO remember that Gatland and Wales won it?

You do remember that they got the Slam? Five games from five. Impressive.....

...............when you think of all the bunk they had to grind through to get it. France, England, Ireland, and Scotland. Dross. A bunch of good coaches with bad players. Pathetic stuff altogether.

And you claim greatness because of that?

Now remember the other bit about the Six Nations. Ireland's hopeless players (coached by an oppressed genius) managed to score more tries than the Slammers and score more gaming points than the Slammers. Highest try score in the competition, highest points score in the competition. No hopers dragged through by a demented genius.

I prefer see that tally, and subsequent HC performances as more an omenous sign of just what these players could do if they found the skill and dexterity they are so lacking right now if they dispensed with the more-sinned-against-than-sinning genius coach and picked just a normal human one.

That last paragraph tells me that I read it quite correctly. Very Happy

by SecretFly Wed 2 May - 11:53

LordDowlais wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
I prefer see that tally, and subsequent HC performances as more an omenous sign of just what these players could do if they found the skill and dexterity they are so lacking right now if they dispensed with the more-sinned-against-than-sinning genius coach and picked just a normal human one.

That last paragraph tells me that I read it quite correctly.

Let me see............... Ireland played badly/terribly during the 6 Nations - players too, for some strange reason!!!! Wink

. All that is noted on more than this thread, Lord. But don't bore yourself trying to find it. We were mad as hatters on speed, we were! Players annoyed us, D'arcy annoyed us, Bowe annoyed me, O'Driscoll's injury annoyed everyone and Kidney - Kidney - he had a very bad few weeks with hot ears and colourful French words.

Now, that means - we woz terrible. Dreadful even. Appalling. We were that from just about first game to last game - not just the English one. But - despite the lack of correct tactics, despite the presence of very apparent rules of engagement (kick everything you get away) despite putting some poor form players on the field in place of in-form ones, despite the low morale of players not knowing what they were being asked to do by their confused coaches, despite us lacking a dedicated attack and a dedicated forwards coach - the players did something from memeory that gave them the tally I alluded to. Memory working, instincts having a few moments - quality players pushing past the restrictive 'gameplan'.

That's how you can have an Italy and an England game in one bad season of shoddy coaching. Glad to clear up the complexities, Lord Smile

by **rodders** Wed 2 May - 12:02

viewtothegym wrote:It's not rocket science on why irish rugby has done well in Europe but the one eyed prefer to see it otherwise.

Couldn't agree more view guinness

.

by LordDowlais Wed 2 May - 12:03

I have asked you not to patronise me before secretfly, what is it with you ? What you are still being sarcy about is that although the caoches are crap the players still managed to pull it out of the hat against Italy. If that is the case why couldn't they do it against us or England or France. Answer me this, was it the coaches fault that George North carried about four players with him to score against you, was the coaches fault the he managed to get an offload to John Davies for his try and the missed tckles that led up to it, was it the coaches fault that the Irish front row could not scrummage against England, the same ones that struggled against Claremont I might add ? It's o.k to say the players "remembered" how to do it agasinst Italy but all the times they were crap was because of the coaches but I am sorry I just do not buy it.

by red_stag Wed 2 May - 12:04

LordDowlais wrote:
Nah, the reason why you won the HC was because of Declan Kidney. The coach who won you your first grand slam in over half a century and you now want his head in a noose.

Dowlais,

To me its quite straightforward. Kidney used to be a very good coach. He delivered two Heineken Cups and a 6 Nations grandslam in three years. Thats a hell of a haul especially when you factor in he brought another two teams to ERC finals and won an U20 Rugby World Cup with Ireland.

However after about 15 years as a professional coach he is no longer a top class one anymore. He has failed to adapt his style to modern rugby and has been overtaken by others with a different outlook to him. The 2010 law changes crippled him and the last two years have seen him coach a very very bad game onto Ireland.

What he is doing is not working.

by The Great Aukster Wed 2 May - 12:04

Gatland, O'Sullivan and Kidney have all had considerably different teams.

Gatland cost Ireland a GS in 2001 by a very dubious selection of ROG over the in form Humphreys, and then pairing him with Guy Easterby rather than Stringer. Ireland actually had the players - Gatland got it wrong and it was the last straw for him as coach.
O'Sullivan built no depth for Ireland culminating in the 07 RWC fiasco. All it took was one injury and he had no cover. A very very short-sighted strategy that would never win the series of games needed to win a tournament or a GS. Remember EOS ignored Kearney, didn't take Bowe or Heaslip to the RWC and didn't rate Ferris either? The lack of Irish THs and 10s stem back to his tenure.
Kidney is a great man manager but a poor tactician. He built squad depth in most areas and won the GS. However he is now stubbornly trying to play a 'rugby by numbers' type of game that is stifling player's natural games and is not suited to the recent law interpretations.

So in summary three very different coaches over a decade that came close to winning the GS for Ireland and in Kidney's case actually did it. That implies the standard of player is there to be competitive and it is in fact the management of the team that makes the difference. Kidney was the man for his time, but that time has now passed.

by Sin é Wed 2 May - 12:09

Excellent article by Alan Quinlan in Irish Times today where he explains the differences between playing for your province/club & country.

Time someone pointed the finger at the Leinster players and asks them why they are not performing at international level. The Munster players got slated and were actually accused of not being interested in playing for Ireland when they were winning heineken cups (and that was after seeing John Hayes & Jerry Flannery in floods of tears in Croke Park).

Full article here:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0502/1224315455106.html

There are explanations for this. Obviously nobody goes out to try to underperform for their country or to put in less effort or show less passion. But there’s no doubt it can happen. It can come down to something as small as how comfortable you feel within a group. With your province, you’re training together, playing together, more or less living together.

You go to work every day, you go to lunch, you talk constantly. You have time to try things, to stay on after a weights session or to sit down and go through a video together. Even if it’s only slagging and messing you’re at, you’re still becoming a team with every interaction.

With the national team, everything is done to a schedule. You come together for such a short space of time and all that time is allotted. Even the downtime. The little pockets of time to gel and come together just don’t feel as natural. It’s a contrived situation in a way too. Guys are that bit more nervous because playing for your country is such a big deal so they’re having to try very hard to stay relaxed – if that makes any sense.

There’s a comfort zone when you’re among your own. The way I try to explain it to people is by getting them to imagine they’re working in the local bank down the country somewhere. They’ve been in their branch day-in-day-out for years and they know everyone and everyone knows them. They’re good at their job because they know the lie of the land around them.

Then one day they’re called to go to a conference in Dublin where they’re among people from all across the country. That comfort level is gone because the familiarity is gone and suddenly a little bit of the confidence they had back home ebbs away. So they begin to question themselves and maybe they don’t put forward this idea or that idea because they’re not sure how it will be received.

Strange as it may sound, switching from provincial mode to Ireland mode in rugby isn’t all that different. Even if you’ve been around a while and you’ve amassed a good few caps, it’s hard to feel totally comfortable. Coaches can do their best to create the environment where players know it’s okay to try things but it takes a special coach and a special bunch of players to get it right.

The margins are so small that it only takes a few guys within a team not hitting their potential for the team to be affected.

It’s a confidence thing as much as anything. I always felt when Munster were winning things that there was no match situation that was out of our reach. If somebody got a try against us, we knew not to panic. If someone knocked on the ball, if someone made a mistake, no problem. We just had that in-built belief that we would go down the field and do what we needed to do.

Just looking at the players who look confident in the pack - I'd say Healy, Best, POC, DOC, Ryan, Ferris. Heaslip hasn't been the same since his red card against the ABs (where he would have felt he let the whole team down and may have lost his confidence).

Its only in the last year or so that Best has settled. Ferris always looked the part.

by red_stag Wed 2 May - 12:10

Lord Dowlais,

In answer to some of the examples.

- Yes, I think Wales running through our defence was msotly down to a coaching decision not to blitz the Welsh runners. This was admitted afterwards and the defensive platform changed its tone against France.

- Yes, I think it was the coaches fault that Irish front row was out scrummaged against England. The presence of Tom Court as a tight head prop is one that does not work and despite Jamie Hagan, John Andress, Ronan Loughney and Declan Fitzpatrick all getting good game time at hight levels these options were never ever explored. All are uncapped.

- We were good against Italy. I dont think it was a case of players taking charge or a mutiny or whatever. I think it was down to Kidney. He also orchestrated our excellent wins over Australia and England in last 12 months. However one off morale boosting victorys are fast becoming the norm.

It surprises me that you don't see this.

by geoff998rugby Wed 2 May - 12:15

red_stag wrote: - Yes, I think it was the coaches fault that Irish front row was out scrummaged against England. The presence of Tom Court as a tight head prop is one that does not work and despite Jamie Hagan, John Andress, Ronan Loughney and Declan Fitzpatrick all getting good game time at hight levels these options were never ever explored. All are uncapped.

The problem in a nut shell. Argueable the next 4 in line for the TH position for Ireland have not received a cap between them. You can add Archer and Macklin to that list so maybe 6.

Other than Ross only Buckley has been capped - that is plain criminal.

by **rodders** Wed 2 May - 12:16

LordDowlais wrote: Answer me this, was it the coaches fault that George North carried about four players with him to score against you, was the coaches fault the he managed to get an offload to John Davies for his try and the missed tckles that led up to it, was it the coaches fault that the Irish front row could not scrummage against England, the same ones that struggled against Claremont I might add ? It's o.k to say the players "remembered" how to do it agasinst Italy but all the times they were crap was because of the coaches but I am sorry I just do not buy it.

I would suggest it is the coaches fault that he selected a player at outside centre who has known deficiencies at defending in that channel against the biggest 3/4 line in the competition. Partnering him with a player at inside centre who was also out of form and exposed against his opposite number in the RWC is also the coaches fault imo.

Picking a 9,10 combination that is not funtioning is the coaches fault.

Picking an out of sorts Donnacha O'Callaghan ahead of the in form Donnacha Ryan, Dan Tuohy and Devin Toner is the coaches fault.

Insisting that Tom Court is a TH when the world can see otherwise is the coaches fault.

The England game was a dead rubber, irrelevent, just like the Italy game.

The failure to learn the painful lessons from the RWC thumping by Wales was the final nail in Kidneys coffin and marked this 6N as a failure, like the previous two, regardless of the subsequent games.

by geoff998rugby Wed 2 May - 12:17

viewtothegym wrote:I do love the word knowledge especially when it gets thrown around by people clearly still yet to hit puberty,
It's not rocket science on why irish rugby has done well in Europe but the one eyed prefer to see it otherwise.

Absolutely - the all Irish front row (including the 3 bench players) were instrumental in 19 of Ulsters 22 points because of the dominance they achieved in the scrum. Glad you have seen the light.

by Sponsored content