John Beattie - Irish Provinces a step ahead of the rest.

First topic message reminder :

John Beattie says that other countries should learn from Ireland's success at provincial level.

He points to the provinces being ahead when it comes grass roots rugby, foreign signings, the correct number of teams (4) and coaching. He also takes about an 'X Factor' in Irish rugby which he describes as "a strength in depth and a coaching pool of talent that is multi-national and highly paid."

I agree with him on a lot of these points, grass roots rugby in Ireland has rocketed in the past 10 years, in term of the number of schools that play it and the number of fans there are now. Foreign signings, we are definitely leading the way, granted the French clubs buy some brilliant players as well, but the Scottish, English and Welsh teams don't seem to sign the same calibre of player very often, they seem more likely to buy a larger number of good players instead of a small number of brilliant players. We have what he calls a 'handy number of teams' and with regard to coaching we have top coaches not just at the provinces but at other top clubs as well (Bradley at Edinburgh, O'Shea at Harlequins, McCall at Saracens etc.)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/johnbeattie/2012/04/irish_lead_the_way_thanks_to_s.html

The Great Aukster wrote:
So in summary three very different coaches over a decade that came close to winning the GS for Ireland and in Kidney's case actually did it. That implies the standard of player is there to be competitive and it is in fact the management of the team that makes the difference. Kidney was the man for his time, but that time has now passed.

+ 1 well said Aukster

red_stag wrote:Lord Dowlais,

In answer to some of the examples.

- Yes, I think Wales running through our defence was msotly down to a coaching decision not to blitz the Welsh runners. This was admitted afterwards and the defensive platform changed its tone against France.

- Yes, I think it was the coaches fault that Irish front row was out scrummaged against England. The presence of Tom Court as a tight head prop is one that does not work and despite Jamie Hagan, John Andress, Ronan Loughney and Declan Fitzpatrick all getting good game time at hight levels these options were never ever explored. All are uncapped.

- We were good against Italy. I dont think it was a case of players taking charge or a mutiny or whatever. I think it was down to Kidney. He also orchestrated our excellent wins over Australia and England in last 12 months. However one off morale boosting victorys are fast becoming the norm.

It surprises me that you don't see this.

Can any of them cover loosehead? John Andress has hardly played all year and Declan Fitzpatrick has been injured. He has played about 2 games this season and Loghney was benching for Connacht for the big games in the HCup.

Sin é wrote:

red_stag wrote:Lord Dowlais,

In answer to some of the examples.

- Yes, I think Wales running through our defence was msotly down to a coaching decision not to blitz the Welsh runners. This was admitted afterwards and the defensive platform changed its tone against France.

- Yes, I think it was the coaches fault that Irish front row was out scrummaged against England. The presence of Tom Court as a tight head prop is one that does not work and despite Jamie Hagan, John Andress, Ronan Loughney and Declan Fitzpatrick all getting good game time at hight levels these options were never ever explored. All are uncapped.

- We were good against Italy. I dont think it was a case of players taking charge or a mutiny or whatever. I think it was down to Kidney. He also orchestrated our excellent wins over Australia and England in last 12 months. However one off morale boosting victorys are fast becoming the norm.

It surprises me that you don't see this.

Can any of them cover loosehead? John Andress has hardly played all year and Declan Fitzpatrick has been injured. He has played about 2 games this season and Loghney was benching for Connacht for the big games in the HCup.

It doesn't really matter, if you can only put one prop on the bench, it should be a TH....

SInE, I agree with you about the players giving more provincially than internationally it makes perfect sense to me.

I didnt know that Fitzpatrick and Andress were injured but why not others. I'd rather take my chance on someone who could be good than one I know to be rubbish.

Loughney was benching for Connacht? He started in their narrow defeat in Kingsholm, started the match in the victory over Harlequins. I felt he handled himself well in his cameo against Toulouse. I see he is nominated for IRFU Medal of Excellence this year.

Stag, so would you advocate having two props on the bench because its always going to be an issue if a prop gets injured and the sub is brought on and has to play on what is his usual side.

O.k, I can accept the fact that perhaps Declan Kidney has not evolved with the game itself, but a man with his record deserves more respect than he is getting on here. I alluded earlier that the problem might be the fact that in Ireland you prioritise provincial rugby over international when that should never be the case and I was told otherwise. But now a former Irish international has said it could be the players I find you all agreeing with him, which is what I have been saying all along, that your players are either not good enough or they are not galvanisng the international side the way you see the provinces fight for each other, the only reason I could find in this is the NIQ players are more crucial in doing it than you realise and they are the "goto" men in the provencis, something you find wanting at a higher level. I do not think that the Irish players are rubbish though, I just think they might lack a little on the feild when the top few inches are needed. P.S not all of them either, as I think you really missed O'Driscoll this year and he really is one of those "goto" men.

Fitzpatrick can play both sides and should be on the plane. He is the only prop capable of playing to anything like the required standard on both sides.

As Mickado said you prop cover should nearly always be, primarily, a TH.

Kidney does deserve a massive amount of respect for his past achievements but one thing he doesn't deserve due to the past is his current position. That should be judged on results which haven't been delivered over the past 2 years

geoff998rugby wrote:

red_stag wrote: - Yes, I think it was the coaches fault that Irish front row was out scrummaged against England. The presence of Tom Court as a tight head prop is one that does not work and despite Jamie Hagan, John Andress, Ronan Loughney and Declan Fitzpatrick all getting good game time at hight levels these options were never ever explored. All are uncapped.

The problem in a nut shell. Argueable the next 4 in line for the TH position for Ireland have not received a cap between them. You can add Archer and Macklin to that list so maybe 6.

Other than Ross only Buckley has been capped - that is plain criminal.

Ah, here now. Whatever about bringing in Botha to Ulster (with young players learning from him), why was Afoa brought in? Andress has said he would have gone back to Ulster except he wasn't going to play second fiddle to a world cup winning prop. How come Ulster hasn't shown a bit of faith in either Fitzpatrick or Andress?

Ulster wanted Andress and Jane initially did they not? Jane turned them down so they had to switch targets. Macklin is only 21ish and isn't anywhere near ready for international rugby.

Fitzpatrick could be a decent backup if he gets fit but you saw his inability around the park in the semi final god bless him. Milk turns quicker.

I think you will find that over the last 5 years Ulster have less NIQ props on their books than any other province. We have not had a single NIQ LH in that period - that makes us unique.

Fitzpatrick has a fitness issue which means he cannot be relied upon as Ulsters no 1.
Andress left on bad terms which made any return problematic. He was lined up but there were problems - never got to the bottom of the real reason although Stand does alluded to one aspect of it.
Botha was only signed because of the sudden lose of Simon Best

Why didn't Munster sign Andress, why did Munster sign Botha instead of giving Archer his head ?

Ulster have a plan in place to have no NIQ front five players at the club in two years - do Munster ?

Standulstermen wrote:Ulster wanted Andress and Jane initially did they not? Jane turned them down so they had to switch targets. Macklin is only 21ish and isn't anywhere near ready for international rugby.

Fitzpatrick could be a decent backup if he gets fit but you saw his inability around the park in the semi final god bless him. Milk turns quicker.

Yep, they did want Andress. He wasn't prepared to sit on the bench behind John Afoa.

My point is that Ulster doesn't think he is up to being first choice at Ulster. How in the name of god do you think that he would be up to international standard? Same goes for Fitzpatrick who only through Afoa's suspension got a chance to play at Heineken Cup level.

I've no issue with Macklin needing time and a chance to develop - something that Cian Healy needed as well at both international & provincial level - it would have been terrible for his development if he was thrown to the wolves with a rookie international tighthead.

Well Sin maybe Fitzpatrick and Macklin would see more gametime if the IRFU and Kidney didn't insist that we play Court at TH x amount of games per season.

geoff998rugby wrote:I think you will find that over the last 5 years Ulster have less NIQ props on their books than any other province. We have not had a single NIQ LH in that period - that makes us unique

All very good etc. etc. but it hasn't exactly helped the national team. Ulster have provided 1 loosehead (australian born) to sit on the bench. He wouldn't have made the bench either except we were led to believe he can play tighthead.

rodders wrote:Well Sin maybe Fitzpatrick and Macklin would see more gametime if the IRFU and Kidney didn't insist that we play Court at TH x amount of games per season.

Court started twice (2) last year at tighthead (Scarlets & Connacht). 119 minutes.

Sin é wrote: Yep, they did want Andress. He wasn't prepared to sit on the bench behind John Afoa.

Wrong - at no time were Ulster going to sign Andress and Afoa.

It was Jane and Andress
or
Payne and Afoa

The reality is Ireland are in a bad place re TH and the likes of Fitzpatrick, Andress and Hagan may not be good enough for a top side but they are the best we, Ireland, have for TH and should be given game time in dead matches like the last 6N game. TH is the one position Ireland are looking over a cliff.

If Ross breaks a leg in the HC final who the hell do we take to NZ ?
Also Ulster wanted to play Fitzpatrick against Connacht recently but Kidney inssited in continuing with the stupid idea of playing Court at TH. We were force to play Court. Fitzpatrick lost game time not because of Ulster but because of Kidney.
Ulster do rate Fitzpatricks scrummaging technique - they don't rate his fitness.
A piece of sound judgement from what I have seen.

geoff998rugby wrote:
Why didn't Munster sign Andress, why did Munster sign Botha instead of giving Archer his head ?

Ulster have a plan in place to have no NIQ front five players at the club in two years - do Munster ?

Andress turned Munster down because of Botha. Archer isn't experienced enough and the IRFU fecked up re-signing Buckley (bad and all as he was, he would have been good backup). Munster have Botha & Archer as thighheads. After that we're down to AIL props.

Munster (having provided every Ireland front row for about the last 20 years will have an IQ front row in a year (thats if the IRFU get their way as both Botha & Wian's contracts are up at the end of next season).

Sin é wrote:Stag, so would you advocate having two props on the bench because its always going to be an issue if a prop gets injured and the sub is brought on and has to play on what is his usual side.

I would in our case. IMO we cannot risk what happened against England again and we need to develop new tightheads.

I would have a bench along the lines of:

Cronin, Court, Hagan, Tuohy, Reddan, Madigan, McFadden or else "Cronin, Court, Hagan, Tuohy, Heaslip, Reddan, Madigan"

I think that we have so much versatility in players like Sean O'Brien, Peter O'Mahony, Donnacha Ryan, Keith Earls, Tommy Bowe, Fergus McFadden, Jonathan Sexton, Luke Fitzgerald etc etc etc that we can afford to have a full front row.

Whats the point of all the versatile players if we dont use the versatility to cover areas where we need extra players.

Sin é wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:I think you will find that over the last 5 years Ulster have less NIQ props on their books than any other province. We have not had a single NIQ LH in that period - that makes us unique

All very good etc. etc. but it hasn't exactly helped the national team. Ulster have provided 1 loosehead (australian born) to sit on the bench. He wouldn't have made the bench either except we were led to believe he can play tighthead.

Well Ulster played for years with Simon Best, Justin Fitzpatrick and Bryan Young as their props. All Irishmen.
You can't critise Ulster in one breath for having 1 TH prop on their books (alongside 6 IQ props) and at the same time complain about the fact that for years we palyed with an all Irish front row.

As for Court 'who lead you to believe' he could play TH ?
We tried him there and very quickly realized his technique was wrong.
If the Irish coaching staff have continued to try this out that is their error not Ulsters.

As said elsewhere we have 2 IQ TH at Ulster who have a better technique than Court. Get them into the Irish sqaud and lets see if they develop.

For the record I think we should take to NZ:

TH - Ross, Hagan, Fitzpatrick
LH - Healy, Court, McAllister

The first names are for the team, second names as cover.
Fitzpatrick for the bench and McAllister for the experience

It is my belief that in two years time Ulsters front row projections are:

LH - McAllister, Court, Black (all already at the club)
TH - Macklin, Fitzpatrick, Cronin (first two already at the club and Cronin on a two year contract to England to develop)
Hooker - Best, Annett, ANother (TBD)

8 of the 9 IQ, all 8 already at the club or directly connected.
Afoa is there to keep us competitive and help develop the youngsters.
I reckon that is a very healthy scenario for both Ulster and Irish rugby.

geoff998rugby wrote:

Sin é wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:I think you will find that over the last 5 years Ulster have less NIQ props on their books than any other province. We have not had a single NIQ LH in that period - that makes us unique

All very good etc. etc. but it hasn't exactly helped the national team. Ulster have provided 1 loosehead (australian born) to sit on the bench. He wouldn't have made the bench either except we were led to believe he can play tighthead.

Well Ulster played for years with Simon Best, Justin Fitzpatrick and Bryan Young as their props. All Irishmen.
You can't critise Ulster in one breath for having 1 TH prop on their books (alongside 6 IQ props) and at the same time complain about the fact that for years we palyed with an all Irish front row.

As for Court 'who lead you to believe' he could play TH ?
We tried him there and very quickly realized his technique was wrong.
If the Irish coaching staff have continued to try this out that is their error not Ulsters.

As said elsewhere we have 2 IQ TH at Ulster who have a better technique than Court. Get them into the Irish sqaud and lets see if they develop.

I wouldn't be having a crack at Ulster if you weren't telling me how brilliant they are at providing props. Even Munster could provide an IQ front row - the point is that they wouldn't be good enough to play international rugby. Simon Best was a huge loss to both Ulster & Ireland in a similar way that the Claw, Hayes, Horan and Buckley have been.

geoff998rugby wrote:

The reality is Ireland are in a bad place re TH and the likes of Fitzpatrick, Andress and Hagan may not be good enough for a top side but they are the best we, Ireland, have for TH and should be given game time in dead matches like the last 6N game. TH is the one position Ireland are looking over a cliff.

If Ross breaks a leg in the HC final who the hell do we take to NZ ?
Also Ulster wanted to play Fitzpatrick against Connacht recently but Kidney inssited in continuing with the stupid idea of playing Court at TH. We were force to play Court. Fitzpatrick lost game time not because of Ulster but because of Kidney.
Ulster do rate Fitzpatricks scrummaging technique - they don't rate his fitness.
A piece of sound judgement from what I have seen.

I agree with you about Ireland being in a bad place with regard to tighthead, but you really can't be blaming Kidney for that. The provinces have a lot to answer for in this regard.

Surely Ulster should be able to sort out Fitzpatrick's fitness.

LordDowlais wrote:I have asked you not to patronise me before secretfly, what is it with you ? What you are still being sarcy about is that although the caoches are crap the players still managed to pull it out of the hat against Italy. If that is the case why couldn't they do it against us or England or France. Answer me this, was it the coaches fault that George North carried about four players with him to score against you, was the coaches fault the he managed to get an offload to John Davies for his try and the missed tckles that led up to it, was it the coaches fault that the Irish front row could not scrummage against England, the same ones that struggled against Claremont I might add ? It's o.k to say the players "remembered" how to do it agasinst Italy but all the times they were crap was because of the coaches but I am sorry I just do not buy it.

You have your cookie and it does crumble. Meanwhile, I'll continue to point out your flaws, your slants, your covered up pseudo compliments watered down with the mouthful of spite. I'll continue to do all that Lord, and it won't be patronising - it'll be an opinion you don't share. We obviously and bluntly don't share many

Wales are a smashing team with smashing players of Internatinal class and ability. Is that all you've been craving all this time? Why didn't you just ask: "Any compilments for us, lads? Now that the 6Nations flush is over and we're feeling left out."

Don't worry, the International summer season is around the bend and you'll have your feathers fluffed again - and no doubt we'll be drowning our sorrows in some watering hole in New Zealand.
George North? Just too good for us. A man amongst boys - hats off. Our coach told us how to fix him at the WC and he brought out the same piece of crumpled paper for the Six Nation. Magnificent.

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I have asked you not to patronise me before secretfly, what is it with you ? What you are still being sarcy about is that although the caoches are crap the players still managed to pull it out of the hat against Italy. If that is the case why couldn't they do it against us or England or France. Answer me this, was it the coaches fault that George North carried about four players with him to score against you, was the coaches fault the he managed to get an offload to John Davies for his try and the missed tckles that led up to it, was it the coaches fault that the Irish front row could not scrummage against England, the same ones that struggled against Claremont I might add ? It's o.k to say the players "remembered" how to do it agasinst Italy but all the times they were crap was because of the coaches but I am sorry I just do not buy it.

You have your cookie and it does crumble. Meanwhile, I'll continue to point out your flaws, your slants, your covered up pseudo compliments watered down with the mouthful of spite. I'll continue to do all that Lord, and it won't be patronising - it'll be an opinion you don't share. We obviously and bluntly don't share many

Wales are a smashing team with smashing players of Internatinal class and ability. Is that all you've been craving all this time? Why didn't you just ask: "Any compilments for us, lads? Now that the 6Nations flush is over and we're feeling left out."

Don't worry, the International summer season is around the bend and you'll have your feathers fluffed again - and no doubt we'll be drowning our sorrows in some watering hole in New Zealand.
George North? Just too good for us. A man amongst boys - hats off. Our coach told us how to fix him at the WC and he brought out the same piece of crumpled paper for the Six Nation. Magnificent.

So Fly, what do you think of what Quinlan has had to say.

I'm surprised that no one is commenting on his contribution!

I have a few posts up, and I agree with him.

By the way - with regard to D'Arcy contract - he deserves it. He wasn't on an international contract for the last couple of years and he was starting for Ireland and Leinster were carrying his wage and he wasn't available to them.

The debate here is really about the ability of the Irish players. Irish people rate them higher than non Irish people which is understandable.

I think the truth might be somewhere in between the 2 extremes but the Irish teams deserve more credit instead of people saying they're in a soft league, have the best foreigners etc.

Theres also alot of negativity about the HEC final being an all-Irish affair. I suppose its understandable in a way because I'd find it boring if one country was dominating too.

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I have asked you not to patronise me before secretfly, what is it with you ? What you are still being sarcy about is that although the caoches are crap the players still managed to pull it out of the hat against Italy. If that is the case why couldn't they do it against us or England or France. Answer me this, was it the coaches fault that George North carried about four players with him to score against you, was the coaches fault the he managed to get an offload to John Davies for his try and the missed tckles that led up to it, was it the coaches fault that the Irish front row could not scrummage against England, the same ones that struggled against Claremont I might add ? It's o.k to say the players "remembered" how to do it agasinst Italy but all the times they were crap was because of the coaches but I am sorry I just do not buy it.

You have your cookie and it does crumble. Meanwhile, I'll continue to point out your flaws, your slants, your covered up pseudo compliments watered down with the mouthful of spite. I'll continue to do all that Lord, and it won't be patronising - it'll be an opinion you don't share. We obviously and bluntly don't share many

Wales are a smashing team with smashing players of Internatinal class and ability. Is that all you've been craving all this time? Why didn't you just ask: "Any compilments for us, lads? Now that the 6Nations flush is over and we're feeling left out."

Don't worry, the International summer season is around the bend and you'll have your feathers fluffed again - and no doubt we'll be drowning our sorrows in some watering hole in New Zealand.
George North? Just too good for us. A man amongst boys - hats off. Our coach told us how to fix him at the WC and he brought out the same piece of crumpled paper for the Six Nation. Magnificent.

What flaws and slants, and before you get personal, I am far from spitefull, I actually love watching the provinces play. If you want to keep burying your head in the sand though you carry on, because the NIQ players really do make a difference to your team weather you like it or not. You can blame Declan Kidney for you failings at international level all you want but at some point the players will have to start to shoulder some of the blame. Anyway the proof is in the pudding the provinces are successful the national team is not, and you can put any coach you want in charge of Ireland, but unless the players start giving the effort they do for their provinces, then not only will Ireland struggle, but it will convince people like me that the NIQ players are the one's with the top few inches that galvanise your provinces not the Irish ones.

profitus, for the record, I am absolutley deleighted that there are two Irish provinces in the HC final, it makes me proud that our Welsh regions get to share a league with you and play against you on a regular basis.

....and Lord for the record....I reckon Ruan Pienaar will be motm in the HEC final...... ......

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I have asked you not to patronise me before secretfly, what is it with you ? What you are still being sarcy about is that although the caoches are crap the players still managed to pull it out of the hat against Italy. If that is the case why couldn't they do it against us or England or France. Answer me this, was it the coaches fault that George North carried about four players with him to score against you, was the coaches fault the he managed to get an offload to John Davies for his try and the missed tckles that led up to it, was it the coaches fault that the Irish front row could not scrummage against England, the same ones that struggled against Claremont I might add ? It's o.k to say the players "remembered" how to do it agasinst Italy but all the times they were crap was because of the coaches but I am sorry I just do not buy it.

You have your cookie and it does crumble. Meanwhile, I'll continue to point out your flaws, your slants, your covered up pseudo compliments watered down with the mouthful of spite. I'll continue to do all that Lord, and it won't be patronising - it'll be an opinion you don't share. We obviously and bluntly don't share many

Wales are a smashing team with smashing players of Internatinal class and ability. Is that all you've been craving all this time? Why didn't you just ask: "Any compilments for us, lads? Now that the 6Nations flush is over and we're feeling left out."

Don't worry, the International summer season is around the bend and you'll have your feathers fluffed again - and no doubt we'll be drowning our sorrows in some watering hole in New Zealand.
George North? Just too good for us. A man amongst boys - hats off. Our coach told us how to fix him at the WC and he brought out the same piece of crumpled paper for the Six Nation. Magnificent.

What flaws and slants, and before you get personal, I am far from spitefull, I actually love watching the provinces play. If you want to keep burying your head in the sand though you carry on, because the NIQ players really do make a difference to your team weather you like it or not. You can blame Declan Kidney for you failings at international level all you want but at some point the players will have to start to shoulder some of the blame. Anyway the proof is in the pudding the provinces are successful the national team is not, and you can put any coach you want in charge of Ireland, but unless the players start giving the effort they do for their provinces, then not only will Ireland struggle, but it will convince people like me that the NIQ players are the one's with the top few inches that galvanise your provinces not the Irish ones.

Fly wont like that arguement one bit...its too honest.

DOD wrote:
Fly wont like that arguement one bit...its too honest.

Fly doesn't mind counter arguments... as DOD knows he engages in many and doesn't run off in any huffs. The whole idea of a counter argument is that it's meat for a discussion.

Lord says I deny this and I'm head in the sand over that, and I don't like to think of the other. I've mentioned everything he's throwing my way, over and over - on this very thread - the lovely foreigners that we rely on (and other HC competiors don't obviously - something he keeps forgetting )

I've spoken of my love for the foreigners, how they add to the mix. But that's not good enough for Lord - he wants downright capitulation to the notion that without those foreigners the Provinces would be sunk in Europe.

No, he's not getting that - because it isn't true. If Provinces sacrificed their foreigners and the other HC sides didn't, then yes they'd be in trouble. But why footshoot in the game of European rugby and why drag up that argument if we'd never dumbly accept the condition?

So, in the real world, if a side like Clermont for example had to get rid of their small army (and yet much bigger army than Leinster's) of foreigners then nope, my comment to Lord all through this is that Leinster and even Munster and Ulster would kinda flourish under those conditions.

Lord doesn't want to hear an Irish man being so brash - he thinks its downright bad manners to our superiors in France and England. I say I like being brash when I know I'm right.

Profitius, Irish people rate Irish players higher than foreign players on their teams? Really? Since when? Try reading some of the flags waved at Ulster matches and the comments about Pienaar. Consider how hero worshiped Elsom was during his stay at Ulster. You can't possibly say that these men are not rated as highly as native players!

DOD I just can't believe that the Irish players care less about playing for Ireland than they do their provinces.

Sin é wrote:
So Fly, what do you think of what Quinlan has had to say.

I'm surprised that no one is commenting on his contribution!

Maybe I didn't comment on it because I thinks it's quite old news? Maybe someone has regurgitated it here and I didn't catch it but as far as I'm concerned Quinlan's furrowed brow and asking questions about player 'committment' (NOT ability - Lord ) players prioritising HC over International in their mind - well, he said that quite a while ago and not only do I agree that he has a point - myself and I think Stag were discussing that without his help during the first week of the 6N.

I don't shirk detail or ideas as to why. But I do have ideas of my own and Kidney's conservative approach to how the game is played (something Lord even admits himself) is not engendering confidence in the players he's asking to play it.

Intotouch wrote:Profitius, Irish people rate Irish players higher than foreign players on their teams? Really? Since when? Try reading some of the flags waved at Ulster matches and the comments about Pienaar. Consider how hero worshiped Elsom was during his stay at Ulster. You can't possibly say that these men are not rated as highly as native players!

I think Profitus meant that Irish people rate Irish players more than non Irish people rate Irish players.

Elsom played for Leinster.

And no I don't believe Irish players care more about their province either.

I think the point Quinlan made about players adapting to the different atmosphere when switching to the international set up from their clubs is the most salient one. He mentioned that sometimes they may not feel as comfortable in expressing themselves both on and off the pitch.

This is down to the management. They need to identify these situations and deal with them. Kidney has a reputation for being a good man-manager but if he is failing in this regard then he has a serious problem.

Whether it is down to the competitive clashes in leagues and HCs between the players when turning out for their respective provinces or any other impediment to the cohesiveness of the national side. He needs to address it.

That and some of his tactics.

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:
So Fly, what do you think of what Quinlan has had to say.

I'm surprised that no one is commenting on his contribution!

Maybe I didn't comment on it because I thinks it's quite old news? Maybe someone has regurgitated it here and I didn't catch it but as far as I'm concerned Quinlan's furrowed brow and asking questions about player 'committment' (NOT ability - Lord ) players prioritising HC over International in their mind - well, he said that quite a while ago and not only do I agree that he has a point - myself and I think Stag were discussing that without his help during the first week of the 6N.

I don't shirk detail or ideas as to why. But I do have ideas of my own and Kidney's conservative approach to how the game is played (something Lord even admits himself) is not engendering confidence in the players he's asking to play it.

Fly, your waffling

SecretFly wrote:

DOD wrote:
Fly wont like that arguement one bit...its too honest.

Fly doesn't mind counter arguments... as DOD knows he engages in many and doesn't run off in any huffs. The whole idea of a counter argument is that it's meat for a discussion.

Lord says I deny this and I'm head in the sand over that, and I don't like to think of the other. I've mentioned everything he's throwing my way, over and over - on this very thread - the lovely foreigners that we rely on (and other HC competiors don't obviously - something he keeps forgetting )

I've spoken of my love for the foreigners, how they add to the mix. But that's not good enough for Lord - he wants downright capitulation to the notion that without those foreigners the Provinces would be sunk in Europe.

No, he's not getting that - because it isn't true. If Provinces sacrificed their foreigners and the other HC sides didn't, then yes they'd be in trouble. But why footshoot in the game of European rugby and why drag up that argument if we'd never dumbly accept the condition?

So, in the real world, if a side like Clermont for example had to get rid of their small army (and yet much bigger army than Leinster's) of foreigners then nope, my comment to Lord all through this is that Leinster and even Munster and Ulster would kinda flourish under those conditions.

Lord doesn't want to hear an Irish man being so brash - he thinks its downright bad manners to our superiors in France and England. I say I like being brash when I know I'm right.

Secretfly, seriously, your are doing my head in now, why on earth would I want a downright capitulation of the provinces ? You seriously think I am that bitter ? Look, this is the way I look at it, and we will take rubbish tactics by coaches out of it, these players are professionals aren't they ? When they play for their respective provinces they seem to play with much more effort, they seem more galvanised if you will, but, when the same players turn out for Ireland they seem less inclined to put their bodies on the line, less galvanised if you like. Now let's find the common denomenator in all this, what is missing from the ireland team that they have at their regions, hey presto, I know, niq players. So to me the ability of the players will always be there, but it those extra two or three inches when you need inspiration on the pitch to give you that little extra umpf. They seem to find it at provincial level but not international level, and that is why I think that the niq players are so important to your regions. If they start doing it without them for Ireland then I will agree with you, but until then we will have to agree to disagree.

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:
So Fly, what do you think of what Quinlan has had to say.

I'm surprised that no one is commenting on his contribution!

Maybe I didn't comment on it because I thinks it's quite old news? Maybe someone has regurgitated it here and I didn't catch it but as far as I'm concerned Quinlan's furrowed brow and asking questions about player 'committment' (NOT ability - Lord ) players prioritising HC over International in their mind - well, he said that quite a while ago and not only do I agree that he has a point - myself and I think Stag were discussing that without his help during the first week of the 6N.

I don't shirk detail or ideas as to why. But I do have ideas of my own and Kidney's conservative approach to how the game is played (something Lord even admits himself) is not engendering confidence in the players he's asking to play it.

Fly, your waffling

Explain?

Always explain, Sin é. Because I'll destroy you with detail if you say I never said a word of it - history is history and it's up there

Lord, your argument boils down to your opinion that the biggest difference between the national team and the provinces is that there are NIQ’s at the province.

Lets look at Leinster:

Strauss, Thorn and Nacewa.
Replace them with Best, O’Connell and Bowe.

Are our NIQ players really THAT much better that you think they’re the difference between how Ireland play and how Leinster play?

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

DOD wrote:
Fly wont like that arguement one bit...its too honest.

Fly doesn't mind counter arguments... as DOD knows he engages in many and doesn't run off in any huffs. The whole idea of a counter argument is that it's meat for a discussion.

Lord says I deny this and I'm head in the sand over that, and I don't like to think of the other. I've mentioned everything he's throwing my way, over and over - on this very thread - the lovely foreigners that we rely on (and other HC competiors don't obviously - something he keeps forgetting )

I've spoken of my love for the foreigners, how they add to the mix. But that's not good enough for Lord - he wants downright capitulation to the notion that without those foreigners the Provinces would be sunk in Europe.

No, he's not getting that - because it isn't true. If Provinces sacrificed their foreigners and the other HC sides didn't, then yes they'd be in trouble. But why footshoot in the game of European rugby and why drag up that argument if we'd never dumbly accept the condition?

So, in the real world, if a side like Clermont for example had to get rid of their small army (and yet much bigger army than Leinster's) of foreigners then nope, my comment to Lord all through this is that Leinster and even Munster and Ulster would kinda flourish under those conditions.

Lord doesn't want to hear an Irish man being so brash - he thinks its downright bad manners to our superiors in France and England. I say I like being brash when I know I'm right.

Secretfly, seriously, your are doing my head in now, why on earth would I want a downright capitulation of the provinces ? You seriously think I am that bitter ? Look, this is the way I look at it, and we will take rubbish tactics by coaches out of it, these players are professionals aren't they ? When they play for their respective provinces they seem to play with much more effort, they seem more galvanised if you will, but, when the same players turn out for Ireland they seem less inclined to put their bodies on the line, less galvanised if you like. Now let's find the common denomenator in all this, what is missing from the ireland team that they have at their regions, hey presto, I know, niq players. So to me the ability of the players will always be there, but it those extra two or three inches when you need inspiration on the pitch to give you that little extra umpf. They seem to find it at provincial level but not international level, and that is why I think that the niq players are so important to your regions. If they start doing it without them for Ireland then I will agree with you, but until then we will have to agree to disagree.

You explained yourself over and over and over Lord. You attack from this angle and get repelled, you try from another angle. At one time the Irish players are 'good' players, at other times they are 'world class' at other times they don't have the top percentage needed to deal with international. Rubbish. And now because you picked up some unlikely allies in the two Munster men who like to think Kidney isn't an issue but all the Irish players are (amazing statistic) - including their own illustious horde, you think the boot will sink deeper into my butt.

I'm doing your head in Sure I am, and I'm in great company for the last few days. What has Ireland acheived? You say we now blame poor Kidney for all our ills when the other guys didn't do any better. Well Eddie O'Sullivan, for all his later issues, had Ireland 3rd ranked side in the world. Ireland has the second best record in Europe overall next to France (consistency) But not under Kidney - who has us in 8th place - consistently so now for over a year. But players do the business and the coach just window cleans - I get you. Wales did what they did at the World Cup, (namely surprise people) and they did all that because of Warburton and North...Gatland and his coaches had nothing to do with the planning and execution. Yeah. Go sing it to those that'll believe that one.

Fini.

The Irish gameplan is all about territory. Run straight into defender. Kick for territory. Defend. Try and take opportunities when they come. The Leinster gameplan is all about creating and exploiting space. Multiple players are putting themselves into attacking positions and defences struggle to cover them all.

The Kidney plan worked under the ELV's because running was to risky. And he still had the grizzled oldies of the great Munster pack. They kicked more and passed less than anyone and they played the laws better than anyone. But the game is different now. The teams that attack well are rewarded. Reds, Australia, New Zealand, Leinster, Wales etc. are excelling. All these teams still kick well. But they keep ball in hand well too. Ireland do neither well. The teams that are stuck in old ways (aimless ping pong, wait for mistakes) are falling behind. Notably Ireland and South Africa.

Lord you're looking for some magical reason why the provinces are better than they should be and not average like the test team. You're looking at it the wrong way around. Look at the players Ireland have available. Why are the Irish test team doing worse than they should be? Why did Ireland go from Grand Slam champions to a 50% win ratio directly after the tackle laws changed? At the same time the provinces got better after the tackle laws changed. Because they're playing the right brand of rugby for the modern game. Kidney is not.

Apart from tactics there's a morale/confidence issue. Kearney just dropped a goal from 50 metres in blue. He's never done it in green. Never even tried. Sextons kick success rate is 90% in blue. It's 50% in green. I've read so many pundits from outside Ireland including Pope, Dayglo, Barnes, Guscott and Bob Woodward ask why won't Kidney play the established Leinster halfbacks and back them 100%? Why did he keep changing the flyhalf? It's one position where confidence is everything. We didn't know who the number one scrumhalf or flyhalf were when we went into a RWC quarter final!?! Accordingly Sexton underperformed in the group stage and ROG had a nightmare in the quarter final. He bizzarely was turning down kicks at goal, when that's what we thought he was in for. Neither knew where they stood. Should ROG be playing like Sexton? Should Sexton be playing like ROG? We turned what should have been an advantage (two top class flyhalves with opposing styles), into a disaster for both.

Apart from tactics and morale there's also the use of the bench and increasingly conservative selections, but that's been done to death too. It's interesting that both Ulster and Munster have followed Leinsters lead in hiring Kiwi coaches. Neither seem to be looking for another Gert Smal or Declan Kidney.

LordDowlais wrote:When they play for their respective provinces they seem to play with much more effort, they seem more galvanised if you will, but, when the same players turn out for Ireland they seem less inclined to put their bodies on the line, less galvanised if you like.

The players are running themselves into the ground to follow Kidneys plan. All that tackling is requiring them to expend huge amounts of energy. They were dead on their feet with 20 minutes to go in the RWC quarter final. Same in the 6 Nations. They let an 8 point lead slip because they were pooped (and Wales were excellent too mind you).

Mickado wrote:Lord, your argument boils down to your opinion that the biggest difference between the national team and the provinces is that there are NIQ’s at the province.

Lets look at Leinster:

Strauss, Thorn and Nacewa.
Replace them with Best, O’Connell and Bowe.

Are our NIQ players really THAT much better that you think they’re the difference between how Ireland play and how Leinster play?

Those three are truly awsome players but alas they are not at Leinster they are at Munster, I would argue though that nacewa and thorn are better than o' Connell and bowe, I am actually of the opinion that nacewa is the best player in Britain and Ireland in his position, but the way I see it is if they played for Leinster it would be much the same as Ireland are now, not tactically but mentally, for Ireland the "goto" men as see it are Brian o'driscoll, Rory best, Paul o'connell you put these guys with the niq players in the provinces and you have a winning formula, I am not taking anything away from the kearneys and the Bowes and the back rowers you have kearney is a world class player, but your back rowers do not do it on a consistent level for club or country, as I have whitnessed against wales the past few games, these players are pro's and if they cannot do it at the next level then questions should be asked of them

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:
So Fly, what do you think of what Quinlan has had to say.

I'm surprised that no one is commenting on his contribution!

Maybe I didn't comment on it because I thinks it's quite old news? Maybe someone has regurgitated it here and I didn't catch it but as far as I'm concerned Quinlan's furrowed brow and asking questions about player 'committment' (NOT ability - Lord ) players prioritising HC over International in their mind - well, he said that quite a while ago and not only do I agree that he has a point - myself and I think Stag were discussing that without his help during the first week of the 6N.

I don't shirk detail or ideas as to why. But I do have ideas of my own and Kidney's conservative approach to how the game is played (something Lord even admits himself) is not engendering confidence in the players he's asking to play it.

Fly, your waffling

Explain?

Always explain, Sin é. Because I'll destroy you with detail if you say I never said a word of it - history is history and it's up there

Your avoiding the kernel of the argument. For example - Heaslip plays well for Leinster, but is poor for Ireland. He became poor for Ireland when he let his whole team down by getting a red card against NZ. He hasn't got over that yet, and so now maybe doesn't like playing for Ireland because it reminds him of that incident in his career which will be remembered more for than the 2/3 Heineken Cups that he might win. His confidence is not good. Quinlan points out that all you need is for one or two not to perform to their highest capabilities for it not to work out. Similarly, you could see it with Luke Fitz & Tomas O'Leary when coming back from injury. Both were trying too hard. Both can be good, international players, but their confidence is shot.

You can blame Kidney for not having them all brim full of confidence, but he really doesn't have long enough with them to sort that out.

If you doubt Kidney's man management - he has managed Cian Healy superbly considering some of the bad outings he has had. Similarly with Rory Best who used to be very nervy with his throws.

Boom! Take that one fly! Sin E has clipped your wings now!

Kidney isn't too blame for Fitzgerald and TOL's form because hes been to busy fixing Healy and Best!

Heaslip is mentally traumatised by the red card he got in 2010!

It all makes sense!!

By the theory that it is Declan kidneys tactics, perhaps your right, but when you were plotless under Eddie o'sullivan you had the same argument about Munster players playing better for Munster than Ireland, and Declan kidney was the coach then, so he motivated the Munster players then, but he cannot do it with Ireland now ? I fail to see the logic in this, I will concede that he might not have evolved with the game, but surely the way to motivate the players is the same.

Feckless Rogue wrote:
Apart from tactics there's a morale/confidence issue. Kearney just dropped a goal from 50 metres in blue. He's never done it in green. Never even tried. Sextons kick success rate is 90% in blue. It's 50% in green. I've read so many pundits from outside Ireland including Pope, Dayglo, Barnes, Guscott and Bob Woodward ask why won't Kidney play the established Leinster halfbacks and back them 100%? Why did he keep changing the flyhalf? It's one position where confidence is everything. We didn't know who the number one scrumhalf or flyhalf were when we went into a RWC quarter final!?! Accordingly Sexton underperformed in the group stage and ROG had a nightmare in the quarter final. He bizzarely was turning down kicks at goal, when that's what we thought he was in for. Neither knew where they stood. Should ROG be playing like Sexton? Should Sexton be playing like ROG? We turned what should have been an advantage (two top class flyhalves with opposing styles), into a disaster for both.

Apart from tactics and morale there's also the use of the bench and increasingly conservative selections, but that's been done to death too. It's interesting that both Ulster and Munster have followed Leinsters lead in hiring Kiwi coaches. Neither seem to be looking for another Gert Smal or Declan Kidney.

Pope is a former coach of St. Marys and still hangs out there. Thats Sexton's club, so you can discount anything he has to say on the subject. Guscutt is an ejit. Dayglo likes the sound of his own voice.

Sexton was dropped during the world cup because his kicking ratio was 40%. That was not Kidneys or ROG's fault. It was his own.

I think you will find that it was BOD who decided when ROG should kick. Apart from anything else, the Welsh were going to have a field day giving away penalties if they knew Ireland had Sexton on the pitch.

eh, Foley isn't a kiwi and he is the Munster forwards coach and will remain so. He filled in for Gert Smal during the 6ns.

Feckless Rogue wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:When they play for their respective provinces they seem to play with much more effort, they seem more galvanised if you will, but, when the same players turn out for Ireland they seem less inclined to put their bodies on the line, less galvanised if you like.

The players are running themselves into the ground to follow Kidneys plan. All that tackling is requiring them to expend huge amounts of energy. They were dead on their feet with 20 minutes to go in the RWC quarter final. Same in the 6 Nations. They let an 8 point lead slip because they were pooped (and Wales were excellent too mind you).

Crickey - where did you get that info? Wales won the world cup QF because they made all the tackles. Ireland had 58% possession. Wales made 150 tackles to Ireland's 100.