John Beattie - Irish Provinces a step ahead of the rest.

First topic message reminder :

John Beattie says that other countries should learn from Ireland's success at provincial level.

He points to the provinces being ahead when it comes grass roots rugby, foreign signings, the correct number of teams (4) and coaching. He also takes about an 'X Factor' in Irish rugby which he describes as "a strength in depth and a coaching pool of talent that is multi-national and highly paid."

I agree with him on a lot of these points, grass roots rugby in Ireland has rocketed in the past 10 years, in term of the number of schools that play it and the number of fans there are now. Foreign signings, we are definitely leading the way, granted the French clubs buy some brilliant players as well, but the Scottish, English and Welsh teams don't seem to sign the same calibre of player very often, they seem more likely to buy a larger number of good players instead of a small number of brilliant players. We have what he calls a 'handy number of teams' and with regard to coaching we have top coaches not just at the provinces but at other top clubs as well (Bradley at Edinburgh, O'Shea at Harlequins, McCall at Saracens etc.)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/johnbeattie/2012/04/irish_lead_the_way_thanks_to_s.html

Firstly, I don't think Leinster are going to encounter the same problems as Munster with an aging squad as they have the best academy in Europe. Healy, Cronin, Toner, Ruddock, Heaslip, O'Brien, Madigan, Fitzgerald, Kearney, McFadden - none of these guys are close to the end of their careers so I think you are way off saying that Leinster are in a similar position to Munster - the only big names they are going to lose to age are O'Driscoll and Cullen

Healy - 24
Cronin - 25
Toner - 25
Ruddock - 21
Heaslip - 28
SOB - 25
Madigan - 23
Kearney - 26
McFadden - 25

A good selection of players reaching their prime (with the exception of Ruddock). Yet some of these guys can't get a run in the first team in their prime because veterans are holding the shirts. There is going to be a point when that transition cannot be put off any longer. D'Arcy, BOD and Nacewa are all over 30 and won't be able to provide the midfield Leinster can thrive off forever. D'Arcy is already looking past his best and still keeps his place ahead of McFadden. Tonner is sitting behind two locks well into their 30s. What happens if Cullen and Thorn both hang up their boots in the summer?

Leinster are the best team in Europe now but the point I was making is that at some point they will have to let go of elements of that golden generation. What could be of concern for them is that some of those elements that may need replacing sooner rather than later are not being forced out by the guys in their prime.

formerly known as Sam wrote: Yet some of these guys can't get a run in the first team in their prime because veterans are holding the shirts. There is going to be a point when that transition cannot be put off any longer. D'Arcy, BOD and Nacewa are all over 30 and won't be able to provide the midfield Leinster can thrive off forever. D'Arcy is already looking past his best and still keeps his place ahead of McFadden. Tonner is sitting behind two locks well into their 30s. What happens if Cullen and Thorn both hang up their boots in the summer?

O'Driscoll has hardly played this season, yet Leinster are sitting miles clear in the Rabo and in the HEC final again mainly through midfield trio of D'arcy, McFadden and O'Malley.

Thorn is only on a 3 month contract.

There seems to be a lot of wishful thinking that Leinsters success is some kind of anomally that will be rectified in coming seasons.

You don't reach 3 HEC finals (and 3 Rabo finals) in 4 seasons by accident or because of a few top foreigners.

The talent and depth they have is frightning, they are getting stronger not weaker.

They may have to settle for a runners up spot in the HEC this season but they'll be there or thereabouts for a long time yet.

Everything in the world is cyclical - weather, car insurance, wives (ahem!).

HC is cyclical - Irish sides won't always appear dominant and yep, Leinster will have selection issues that might take the bite out of the red shiny apple. We're happy here but we're not dumb - not in Ireland, where wealth and poverty can come at you in one week as the summer day melts into a winter's night.

But on the particular Leinster front - the younger branch of the elite are already performing during the season - they're not waiting in the wings for the grey hairs to more fully develop on the heads of D'arcy, Nacewa and Cullen. They already get quality time in Pro12 and even in HC.

That's the beauty of it, that Schmidt is actually walking the walk that so many other coaches talk but seldom have the courage to walk. - Rotation.

It not only serves to give the elites some R&R, it serves to constantly educate the younger players in the differing intensities expected at different levels of competition - it teaches them and it prepares more for a smooth transition than perhaps exists in other clubs where they constantly preach this need to have best players play all the time to be in with a chance of winning. Well, no - that's actually the foot-shooting policy that isn't serving English or French clubs too well in Europe if perhaps giving them more ammo in domestic.

SecretFly wrote:Everything in the world is cyclical - weather, car insurance, wives (ahem!).

LordDowlais wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:I do find it funny that the Irish teams are knocked about the number of NIQ players by supporters of teams with far higher numbers of non nationals.

When have I knocked them ? I am actually praising them.

What makes you think I was specifically referring to you



My point is a simple one. If all teams dispensed with their non nationally qualified players the Irish provinces would probably be even more dominant not less

There seems to be a lot of wishful thinking that Leinsters success is some kind of anomally that will be rectified in coming seasons.

You don't reach 3 HEC finals (and 3 Rabo finals) in 4 seasons by accident or because of a few top foreigners.

That wasn't what I was getting at. Anyway, since when have Leinster relied on 'a few top foreingers' all their key players (Cullen, the backrow, Sexton and BOD) are all Irish. I wasn't saying things will change over night but is it not a concern there's no young players bursting onto the scene and forcing their way into the first team? It's alright getting Rabo time but that's not the big games for the Provinces is it, they are all about HEC and Ireland recognition.

I'll use an example, Tigers have gone from bottom of the AP to 2nd (a point off of first) and won the LV Cup. A lot of the early season victories and the LV Cup were heavilly relient on young squad players. Those young players weren't good enough when it came to the big away days in Europe though. Not enough experience, not a big problem (certainly an annoyance) but the likes of Cole (23), Mafi (21), Manu (19 though he missed most of the HC), Youngs (22), Harrison (21) etc will all learn from those big game mistakes and get better (we're seeing it already). Now Leinster are doing better they are winning those big games, but how much of that experience is available to the younger players who mainly play in the Rabo? Not saying I'm right or that Leinster are 'doomed' but I'm interested.

Irish player do tend to burst on the scene later than English ones.

I think we are too protective to be honest but it may explain why Irish players tend to last longer. Ryan is a classic example - only really coming to the top now and he is 28/29.

I know BOD and D'aRcy are still there but I think you will see a fair bit of O'Malley and McFadden in the centre next year.

Likewise at Ulster you will see a lot more of Spence, Jackson, Marshall, Birch, Macklin next year. Our players mature slower.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

There seems to be a lot of wishful thinking that Leinsters success is some kind of anomally that will be rectified in coming seasons.

You don't reach 3 HEC finals (and 3 Rabo finals) in 4 seasons by accident or because of a few top foreigners.

That wasn't what I was getting at. Anyway, since when have Leinster relied on 'a few top foreingers' all their key players (Cullen, the backrow, Sexton and BOD) are all Irish. I wasn't saying things will change over night but is it not a concern there's no young players bursting onto the scene and forcing their way into the first team? It's alright getting Rabo time but that's not the big games for the Provinces is it, they are all about HEC and Ireland recognition.

I'll use an example, Tigers have gone from bottom of the AP to 2nd (a point off of first) and won the LV Cup. A lot of the early season victories and the LV Cup were heavilly relient on young squad players. Those young players weren't good enough when it came to the big away days in Europe though. Not enough experience, not a big problem (certainly an annoyance) but the likes of Cole (23), Mafi (21), Manu (19 though he missed most of the HC), Youngs (22), Harrison (21) etc will all learn from those big game mistakes and get better (we're seeing it already). Now Leinster are doing better they are winning those big games, but how much of that experience is available to the younger players who mainly play in the Rabo? Not saying I'm right or that Leinster are 'doomed' but I'm interested.

And that might indeed be the beginnings of a regeneration of English dominance at HC in time. But it's just different philosophies of how to approach the same issue (Europe) because of differing constraints (AP - relegation: Irish Pro12 sides - strict limits on foreign players and playing time for Internationals)

Differing constraints, differing capabilities to buy what you need, differing philosophies on how the game should actually be played (practical coaching). It all joins up and either offers success or failure. Right now, it's rougly success for Irish Provinces - as early as next year it might mean failure for those same Provinces.

That's the entertainment - how best to use your resources, how best to grab at ideas from other teams or places in the world, how to tie things together with the proper coaches. It's all really up in the air and Irish Provinces are lucky enough for now to have fallen on a streak of good luck (helped along by systems that work - for now)

formerly known as Sam wrote:That wasn't what I was getting at. Anyway, since when have Leinster relied on 'a few top foreingers' all their key players (Cullen, the backrow, Sexton and BOD) are all Irish. I wasn't saying things will change over night but is it not a concern there's no young players bursting onto the scene and forcing their way into the first team? It's alright getting Rabo time but that's not the big games for the Provinces is it, they are all about HEC and Ireland recognition.

In terms of Ireland for me personally it is a worry. The Irish management and IRFU are not doing a very good job at bringing talent through or giving form players a run for a plethora of reasons- some of which I've mentioned above. That is why I take issue with LordDowlis and others suggesting the main difference in the provinces and national side is the NIQs. That is one factor, but one of the smaller ones imo.

For Leinster it certainly isn't:- Their younger players are playing in the HEC. O'Malley, Toner, Madigan, McFadden in particular have all featured a fair bit this season and the likes of Kearney, Fitzgerald, O'Brien, McLaughlan, Heaslip, Healy, Cronin, Strauss and most importantly imo Sexton will be around for a long time yet.

And that might indeed be the beginnings of a regeneration of English dominance at HC in time.

That I doubt. Tigers will have a good chance to get out of their group next year if they avoid injuries and might push on if the younger generation step up, Sarries will get out of their group but lack the attacking capabilities to go any further, Quins don't have enough depth in the tight five, Saints have no squad depth at all, Exeter could be dark horses as they have depth and a very astute coach as well as talented youngsters on the fringes but lack star quality and Sale will probably exit early.

Be at least two years before English clubs will have developed enough to win the competition again. To many holes in the top sides that need filling but the cap won't allow it and the young guns are still developing (results at age grade are looking promising though).

formerly known as Sam wrote:

And that might indeed be the beginnings of a regeneration of English dominance at HC in time.

That I doubt. Tigers will have a good chance to get out of their group next year if they avoid injuries and might push on if the younger generation step up, Sarries will get out of their group but lack the attacking capabilities to go any further, Quins don't have enough depth in the tight five, Saints have no squad depth at all, Exeter could be dark horses as they have depth and a very astute coach as well as talented youngsters on the fringes but lack star quality and Sale will probably exit early.

Be at least two years before English clubs will have developed enough to win the competition again. To many holes in the top sides that need filling but the cap won't allow it and the young guns are still developing (results at age grade are looking promising though).

I did say In Time there Sam. But no, I wouldn't be so downcast about English prospects. If I was French I wouldn't be downcast about their chances either. And if I was Welsh, well certainly Ospreys look again like they'd have enough firepower to certainly do as well as Edinburgh did this year and possibly go further.

Edinburgh are a good case in point of finding the right trigger to compete in HC. Look at where they are in Pro12. They didn't exactly think of themselves as substandard and just there as observers in their HC pursuit. I think quite a number of English sides are certainly up to Edinburgh standards as regards HC potential... and beyond. Confidence is a big factor that often decides where you come out on the often tight margin games at HC level.

SecretFly wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

And that might indeed be the beginnings of a regeneration of English dominance at HC in time.

That I doubt. Tigers will have a good chance to get out of their group next year if they avoid injuries and might push on if the younger generation step up, Sarries will get out of their group but lack the attacking capabilities to go any further, Quins don't have enough depth in the tight five, Saints have no squad depth at all, Exeter could be dark horses as they have depth and a very astute coach as well as talented youngsters on the fringes but lack star quality and Sale will probably exit early.

Be at least two years before English clubs will have developed enough to win the competition again. To many holes in the top sides that need filling but the cap won't allow it and the young guns are still developing (results at age grade are looking promising though).

I did say In Time there Sam. But no, I wouldn't be so downcast about English prospects. If I was French I wouldn't be downcast about their chances either. And if I was Welsh, well certainly Ospreys look again like they'd have enough firepower to certainly do as well as Edinburgh did this year and possibly go further.

Edinburgh are a good case in point of finding the right trigger to compete in HC. Look at where they are in Pro12. They didn't exactly think of themselves as substandard and just there as observers in their HC pursuit. I think quite a number of English sides are certainly up to Edinburgh standards as regards HC potential... and beyond. Confidence is a big factor that often decides where you come out on the often tight margin games at HC level.

I might have my Welsh tinted glasses on here, but I realy think the Ospreys could make a fist of it next year, they a pack that can match any side in Europe, and the young backs will have had this season under their belts for experience, so next year they will know what to expect, and with the new coach (Steve Tandy) he seems to have instilled some much needed steel to the side.

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

And that might indeed be the beginnings of a regeneration of English dominance at HC in time.

That I doubt. Tigers will have a good chance to get out of their group next year if they avoid injuries and might push on if the younger generation step up, Sarries will get out of their group but lack the attacking capabilities to go any further, Quins don't have enough depth in the tight five, Saints have no squad depth at all, Exeter could be dark horses as they have depth and a very astute coach as well as talented youngsters on the fringes but lack star quality and Sale will probably exit early.

Be at least two years before English clubs will have developed enough to win the competition again. To many holes in the top sides that need filling but the cap won't allow it and the young guns are still developing (results at age grade are looking promising though).

I did say In Time there Sam. But no, I wouldn't be so downcast about English prospects. If I was French I wouldn't be downcast about their chances either. And if I was Welsh, well certainly Ospreys look again like they'd have enough firepower to certainly do as well as Edinburgh did this year and possibly go further.

Edinburgh are a good case in point of finding the right trigger to compete in HC. Look at where they are in Pro12. They didn't exactly think of themselves as substandard and just there as observers in their HC pursuit. I think quite a number of English sides are certainly up to Edinburgh standards as regards HC potential... and beyond. Confidence is a big factor that often decides where you come out on the often tight margin games at HC level.

I might have my Welsh tinted glasses on here, but I realy think the Ospreys could make a fist of it next year, they a pack that can match any side in Europe, and the young backs will have had this season under their belts for experience, so next year they will know what to expect, and with the new coach (Steve Tandy) he seems to have instilled some much needed steel to the side.

We end up agreeing on something, Lord. Now where's that apology for saying I didn't say nothing of the kind when I did say something very much of the kind

sorry

I did say In Time there Sam. But no, I wouldn't be so downcast about English prospects

Haha, fair enough. I'm not down on their chances I just don't expect any of them to win it. I'd expect to see a couple reach the knockouts and then it will all be down to the draws. England's best chances this year were Tigers and Sarries but neither were going to be able to make the required standard with so many injuries (Tigers inability to pick up bonus points away from home was a real killer). Could be tricky for English clubs with the seedings falling away but then again when is there ever an easy group? Tigers were a top seed this year and still got Clermont and Ulster.

I might have my Welsh tinted glasses on here, but I realy think the Ospreys could make a fist of it next year, they a pack that can match any side in Europe

Who are the Ospreys bringing in this off season? I've only heard of players leaving.

i think they wil be bringing more through their academy, but is more a case of who they have kept, adam jones being the most important player in that bracket

formerly known as Sam wrote:

I did say In Time there Sam. But no, I wouldn't be so downcast about English prospects

Haha, fair enough. I'm not down on their chances I just don't expect any of them to win it. I'd expect to see a couple reach the knockouts and then it will all be down to the draws. England's best chances this year were Tigers and Sarries but neither were going to be able to make the required standard with so many injuries (Tigers inability to pick up bonus points away from home was a real killer). Could be tricky for English clubs with the seedings falling away but then again when is there ever an easy group? Tigers were a top seed this year and still got Clermont and Ulster.

I might have my Welsh tinted glasses on here, but I realy think the Ospreys could make a fist of it next year, they a pack that can match any side in Europe

Who are the Ospreys bringing in this off season? I've only heard of players leaving.

I think the Ospreys will be looking to promote from within, and they have blooded a lot of youngsters this year, but the first choice pack will probably look something like this:-

Ryan Bevington
Richard Hibbard
Adam Jones
Alun Wyn Jones
Ian Evans
Ryan Jones
Justin Tuperic
Jonathan Thomas

Although that will probably move around with Ryan Jones and Jonathan Thomas playing multiple positions, then you also have Tom Smith, Joe Bearman, James King, Ian Gough, Duncan Jones, Aaron Jarvis all wanting game time. What the Ospreys have in abundance though is a mass of very young and very tallented backs to come through, I am personally looking forward to the young full back from Bridgend Ross Jones to make the step up.

Munsters recruitment of foreign players has been a disaster. Howlett and BJ Botha being the only ones of high quality. Mafi is being left go and Du Preez is ok but nothing special.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

There seems to be a lot of wishful thinking that Leinsters success is some kind of anomally that will be rectified in coming seasons.

You don't reach 3 HEC finals (and 3 Rabo finals) in 4 seasons by accident or because of a few top foreigners.

That wasn't what I was getting at. Anyway, since when have Leinster relied on 'a few top foreingers' all their key players (Cullen, the backrow, Sexton and BOD) are all Irish. I wasn't saying things will change over night but is it not a concern there's no young players bursting onto the scene and forcing their way into the first team? It's alright getting Rabo time but that's not the big games for the Provinces is it, they are all about HEC and Ireland recognition.

I'll use an example, Tigers have gone from bottom of the AP to 2nd (a point off of first) and won the LV Cup. A lot of the early season victories and the LV Cup were heavilly relient on young squad players. Those young players weren't good enough when it came to the big away days in Europe though. Not enough experience, not a big problem (certainly an annoyance) but the likes of Cole (23), Mafi (21), Manu (19 though he missed most of the HC), Youngs (22), Harrison (21) etc will all learn from those big game mistakes and get better (we're seeing it already). Now Leinster are doing better they are winning those big games, but how much of that experience is available to the younger players who mainly play in the Rabo? Not saying I'm right or that Leinster are 'doomed' but I'm interested.

You have a point there Sam. Leinsters next generation will have to wait for this to retire/fade away and it will then take them time to become experienced. Leinster gave Van Der Merwe a contract extension for example when there are a few highly rated props just below him who need games to improve.

Having said that, Leinster are going to get stronger. They're dominating selection of all the underage Irish teams and have a conveyor belt of talent for all positions that noone else has in Ireland.

then you also have Tom Smith

I thought he was the yellow card merchant that LI had taken off your hands?

Good to see the Ospreys building the talent from their own academies but that isn't a pack that causes as much concern as Leinster or French clubs will do. A good balance in terms of youth an experience but they are lacking a destructive ball carrier for me. The double header loss is what did for them this year as Sarries really gave them nothing from those two games, the defence in particular seemed rather brittle. Has the new coach helped with that?

formerly known as Sam wrote:

then you also have Tom Smith

I thought he was the yellow card merchant that LI had taken off your hands?

Good to see the Ospreys building the talent from their own academies but that isn't a pack that causes as much concern as Leinster or French clubs will do. A good balance in terms of youth an experience but they are lacking a destructive ball carrier for me. The double header loss is what did for them this year as Sarries really gave them nothing from those two games, the defence in particular seemed rather brittle. Has the new coach helped with that?

Yes he has, ten fold, and as for ball carriers Ian Evans, Ryan Jones and Alyun Wyn Jones are not bad, but you should look out for Bevington, he is like a better scrummaging version of Gethin Jenkins and is rated very high down in Swansea, so high in fact they have just let Paul James go.

I would expect the teams to make the quarters and for drop down to Amlin as follows (subject to draw)

France - Toulon, Tolouse, Clearmount
England - Sarries, Tigers, Quins (just not sure on Saints)
Ireland - Ulster, Munster, Leinster
Scotland - I think both might do it as they have recurited well
Wales - O's/Scarlets depending on draw

Outside bets of Exeter, Treviso(they would need to get a weaker group but I think they can win all home games as long as they don't get one of the big teams at home in the first half) and possibly Saints and SF/Biarritiz

profitius wrote: Having said that, Leinster are going to get stronger. They're dominating selection of all the underage Irish teams and have a conveyor belt of talent for all positions that noone else has in Ireland.

The selection often reflects availability and who the selectors are most aware of.
At aged rugby Leinster usually get higher representation than the respect talents at the other Provinces justifies.

They have more to choose from certaintly, but nothing like aged selection indicates.

geoff998rugby wrote:

profitius wrote: Having said that, Leinster are going to get stronger. They're dominating selection of all the underage Irish teams and have a conveyor belt of talent for all positions that noone else has in Ireland.

The selection often reflects availability and who the selectors are most aware of.
At aged rugby Leinster usually get higher representation than the respect talents at the other Provinces justifies.

They have more to choose from certaintly, but nothing like aged selection indicates.

I agree with that, Geoff. They;re in the spotlight more.

If Leinster fired Nacewa, Strauss and Thorn and signed Bowe, Best and O'Connell would they suddenly do much worse?

If Leinster fired Schmidt and hired Kidney, who coached the team to keep aimlessly kicking possession away to the best teams in Europe would they do much worse?

Answers on a postcard please.

Can I answer???!!!! Please sir!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I answer that one????

O.k guy's, if you can just humour me for a moment, firstly name your province first 15 with the NIQ players, then name your province without them but replace them with the IQ players from the same province. When you have done this and weighed up all the pro's and cons, all I ask for is honesty, can you please tell me which first fifteen you see as the best. Please, please do not pick a fight with me on this as I will not argue with anyone on this as I asked for honesty and I will take your answers from you at face value and would not believe anybody to be dishonest without reason.

Dowlais - Bit of a pointless exercise as the team with the NIQ's is obviously going to be stronger, hence why we sign NIQ's. The argument is whether or not or to what degree the NIQ's damage our national team. With the possible exception of Tighthead prop, I don't think there is any position were the national team is weakened by NIQs.

Artful_Dodger wrote:Dowlais - Bit of a pointless exercise as the team with the NIQ's is obviously going to be stronger, hence why we sign NIQ's. The argument is whether or not or to what degree the NIQ's damage our national team. With the possible exception of Tighthead prop, I don't think there is any position were the national team is weakened by NIQs.

So, what are you saying then AD, are you implying that your NIQ players are crucial to your provinces and that they would not enjoy as much sucsess without them ?

LordDowlais wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:Dowlais - Bit of a pointless exercise as the team with the NIQ's is obviously going to be stronger, hence why we sign NIQ's. The argument is whether or not or to what degree the NIQ's damage our national team. With the possible exception of Tighthead prop, I don't think there is any position were the national team is weakened by NIQs.

So, what are you saying then AD, are you implying that your NIQ players are crucial to your provinces and that they would not enjoy as much sucsess without them ?

I don't think anyone has disputed this.

LordDowlais wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:Dowlais - Bit of a pointless exercise as the team with the NIQ's is obviously going to be stronger, hence why we sign NIQ's. The argument is whether or not or to what degree the NIQ's damage our national team. With the possible exception of Tighthead prop, I don't think there is any position were the national team is weakened by NIQs.

So, what are you saying then AD, are you implying that your NIQ players are crucial to your provinces and that they would not enjoy as much sucsess without them ?

If other countries clubs or regions had foreign players and we did not then no doubt we wouldn't have as much success, but lets have a level playing field instead of one of your very unfair scenario's. If the clubs we compete with in Europe had no foreign players and we had no foreign players I think we may even be more successful - the English and French in particular could not survive without foreign players.

So all in all, everyone with foreign players we are winning, everyone without foreign players I think we still win.

Ah give it a rest Dowlias. We all know what you're trying to say. But its nonsense. Because Leinster are probably less reliant on foreigners than any other top team in Europe. If ALL HC teams got rid of their foreigners, Leinsters dominance would only increase. I'm sure of that.

A leinster team with 19 Irishmen in the squad is the best team in Europe. You don't like it. You just have to accept it. It was Sexton that called the try scoring play, Kearney that made the break and Healy that scored. It was Kearney that scored the drop goal. It was D'arcy that made the try saving tackle on Fofana. It was O'Brien that won the final penalty. It was Ross that made adjustments to the scrum at half time, like he's done before. It was Cronin that replaced Strauss and the lineout improved. It was the kicking of Sexton, McFadden and Kearney that pinned Clermont back in their own half for 10 minutes. It was Sexton that kicked the points.

It's the Irish players skill and passion for their province that makes Leinster the best team in Europe. You don't have to like it. But you're in denial if you think Thorn, Nacewa and Strauss are what makes all the difference. Leinster are probably the only team in Europe who could win a European Cup without their foreign players. Because the overwhelming majority of their key men are Irish.

I said above the English and French couldn't survive without foreigners, looking at the number of NWQ players at the regions I don't think they could either, only the Scottish and Italians are less reliant on foreigners than the provinces.

Feckless, I know how good your Irish players are and I acknowledge that Leinster are the best team in Europe, and when there are no Welsh regions left in the HC which is quite often I will ALWAYS support a team from the Rabbo over anyone else, but I will tell you one thing, you and others on here are kidding yourselves if you think the NIQ players you have do not make a difference, I am actually quite proud of the fact that my Welsh regions get to share a league with the Irish provinces as I think they are the benchmark that we all must reach. What I don't like is the way a certain few of the Irish posters on here are totally dismissing how crucial they are to the teams in which they play in. As for other teams I have no doubt if half the French/English clubs either would be as good without their foreign players as well and I would have the same argument with them also, but as it is, we are discussing your provinces not English/French clubs. So you have to acknowledge how important they are also, I will admit that Leinster would still be good without them, but not as good.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:Dowlais - Bit of a pointless exercise as the team with the NIQ's is obviously going to be stronger, hence why we sign NIQ's. The argument is whether or not or to what degree the NIQ's damage our national team. With the possible exception of Tighthead prop, I don't think there is any position were the national team is weakened by NIQs.

So, what are you saying then AD, are you implying that your NIQ players are crucial to your provinces and that they would not enjoy as much sucsess without them ?

I don't think anyone has disputed this.

Yes they have, I am constantly told on here that if Leinster had all their Irish players playing they would still win the HC.

Dowlais If you do that with tigers, Tolouse or Clearmount they would be as weak if not weaker.

LordDowlais wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:Dowlais - Bit of a pointless exercise as the team with the NIQ's is obviously going to be stronger, hence why we sign NIQ's. The argument is whether or not or to what degree the NIQ's damage our national team. With the possible exception of Tighthead prop, I don't think there is any position were the national team is weakened by NIQs.

So, what are you saying then AD, are you implying that your NIQ players are crucial to your provinces and that they would not enjoy as much sucsess without them ?

I don't think anyone has disputed this.

Yes they have, I am constantly told on here that if Leinster had all their Irish players playing they would still win the HC.

I'm an Ulster fan, without our NIQ's we wouldnt be in the final, however with Leinster I think they would be, the only 2 NIQs they had starting against Clermont were Brad Thorn, who to be honest hasn't made a huge impact since arriving and Isa Nacewa. 2 Big players but I think they would be there or there about without them.

I think if Leinster were without their NIQs they could still win the HEC.

The biggest loss would actually be Brad Thorn and not Nacewa as they don't have a robust TH lock of that calibre, whereas they have an abundance of talented backs.

If other sides were restricted to not playing foreign imports then Leinster would be even further ahead of other sides.

Ulster would certainly be weaker without their overseas players, particularly leadership wise without Muller and Pienaar and Munsters scrum would struggle badly against the top sides without Botha and du preez.

LordDowlais wrote:I will admit that Leinster would still be good without them, but not as good.

But why is that directed solely at the Irish provinces?? That's what I don't get. It's true of every European team. In fact it's even more so for the Welsh, English and French teams than it is for Leinster. Get rid of all foreigners from the HC and Leinster would be even more dominant.

The Irish will soon have won 5 European Cups in 7 years. You just have to accept that the one common denominator in all 5 wins is squads made up mostly of Irish players, who's star performers are mostly Irish players. The Irish provinces excel in this competition. And Leinster and Munster in particular, have been less reliant on foreign players than any top Welsh, English or French team. So

Jeez those Irish teams sure are good at signing super human foreigners that none of us have access to
Jeez, well played, but lucky you were able to rest all your best players for the last 6 months because your league is rubbish.
Jeez those Irish sure cheat better than anyone
Jeez they really played the ref well. Fair play

These are just backhanded compliments and digs. And repeating them over and over won't make you're teams any better.

How about

Jeez that set play to score the try was incredible. Almost as good as the one against Cardiff in the quarters. Why aren't our Welsh players executing plays like that?
Jeez how did Kearney get that drop goal? It was better than the attempts of my teams flyhalf! Is he good enough?
Jeez, I see Sextons kicking success is at 90% in the league and HC. No wonder they're difficult to beat.

for a change.

I think Beattie is right. The Irish provinces should be studied and copied by other teams. Not dismissed, by trying to convince yourself they just have better foreigners. Nothing to do with the Irish being better at anything than anyone else of course. That couldn't be possible. When it's 6 Irish HC wins from 8 will the penny drop? Or will it take more?

Absolutely feckless - as I pointed out above, why should Irish teams without foreigners be considered against teams with foreigners - surely a fair test is to compare all teams without their foreigners, in which case I agree with you Leinster would still be on top.

The Irish are welcome to their fantastic provinces playing awesome rugby.

Rubbish regions = 3 Grand Slams.

You pays your money, you takes your choice.

We have a Grand Slam since the start of professionalism as well.....as the soon to be 6 Heineken Cups, all in all we just need rid of Kidney and I think we'll be flying.

The Welsh don't need quality throughout the season. Few turn up to that stuff any more. We're all about the 6N now.

Dire regional rugby produces Grand Slams. Nobody knows why and we deal with the odd disaster against Fiji or Italy by ignoring it.

We is happy.

But hats off to the Irish for their European dominance.

Casartelli wrote:The Welsh don't need quality throughout the season. Few turn up to that stuff any more. We're all about the 6N now.

Dire regional rugby produces Grand Slams. Nobody knows why and we deal with the odd disaster against Fiji or Italy by ignoring it.

We is happy.

But hats off to the Irish for their European dominance.

More fans = more money = more money to pump back into Welsh rugby. The grand slam was partly due to the regions developing those players. The ML/Celtic/Rabo league played a big part in that too. Its the bread and butter of Welsh rugby and its better for Wales if the regions are successful or at least improving all the time.

Casartelli wrote:The Welsh don't need quality throughout the season. Few turn up to that stuff any more. We're all about the 6N now.

Dire regional rugby produces Grand Slams. Nobody knows why and we deal with the odd disaster against Fiji or Italy by ignoring it.

We is happy.

But hats off to the Irish for their European dominance.

The Welsh test team is great. No back handed compliments or digs or suggestions of biased refs or cheating from me. Deserved the Slam. They simply killed us in midfield in the last 2 games. But that's not due to foreigners at the provinces. The provinces play D'arcy, O'Driscoll, McFadden, O'Malley, Earls, Cave, Spence, Wallace, Griffen and Earls.

If there is a combo that can be picked from there that can get the better of the fantastic Welsh duo, Kidney hasn't selected it yet.

Feckless Rogue wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I will admit that Leinster would still be good without them, but not as good.

But why is that directed solely at the Irish provinces?? That's what I don't get. It's true of every European team. In fact it's even more so for the Welsh, English and French teams than it is for Leinster. Get rid of all foreigners from the HC and Leinster would be even more dominant.

The Irish will soon have won 5 European Cups in 7 years. You just have to accept that the one common denominator in all 5 wins is squads made up mostly of Irish players, who's star performers are mostly Irish players. The Irish provinces excel in this competition. And Leinster and Munster in particular, have been less reliant on foreign players than any top Welsh, English or French team.

Minor point (since you said ANY). Quins only rely on 2 NEQ players (granted without Evans they are no where near the team they are with him on form. Other is Johnson and he's hit and miss, funnily the current England U20 TH is a Quin). Wasps during their dominance didn't have many foreign players either (in 2007 they had two in the starting 15). Are Quins counted as top team or is that bit early since they were 7th in the league last year?

LordDowlais wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:Dowlais - Bit of a pointless exercise as the team with the NIQ's is obviously going to be stronger, hence why we sign NIQ's. The argument is whether or not or to what degree the NIQ's damage our national team. With the possible exception of Tighthead prop, I don't think there is any position were the national team is weakened by NIQs.

So, what are you saying then AD, are you implying that your NIQ players are crucial to your provinces and that they would not enjoy as much sucsess without them ?

I don't think anyone has disputed this.

Yes they have, I am constantly told on here that if Leinster had all their Irish players playing they would still win the HC.

Most of the posts on this thread have said if the playing field was level and no team was allowed have foreign players then Leinster would still be the best team in Europe which I agree with,some people have said that without our foreigners we could still win the HC which I also agree with but we wouldn't be as strong and we'd probably need a bit of luck like a home semi-final draw.
Top class foreign players are crucial to every top team in Europe,that doesn't alter the fact that Leinster also have a large group of top class Irish players as well.

Artful_Dodger wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:Dowlais - Bit of a pointless exercise as the team with the NIQ's is obviously going to be stronger, hence why we sign NIQ's. The argument is whether or not or to what degree the NIQ's damage our national team. With the possible exception of Tighthead prop, I don't think there is any position were the national team is weakened by NIQs.

So, what are you saying then AD, are you implying that your NIQ players are crucial to your provinces and that they would not enjoy as much sucsess without them ?

I don't think anyone has disputed this.

Yes they have, I am constantly told on here that if Leinster had all their Irish players playing they would still win the HC.

I'm an Ulster fan, without our NIQ's we wouldnt be in the final, however with Leinster I think they would be, the only 2 NIQs they had starting against Clermont were Brad Thorn, who to be honest hasn't made a huge impact since arriving and Isa Nacewa. 2 Big players but I think they would be there or there about without them.

So Van Der Mewe didn't make a difference when he came on then ? The scrum stopped going backwards for a start. Look, to even things out I will make the argument fair and do a comparison for arguably our strongest region the Ospreys this year the first fifteen are as follows:-

Ryan Bevington, Paul James - Welsh
Richard Hibbard, Huw Bennett - Welsh
Adam Jones,Cai Griffiths - Welsh
Alyun Wun Jones, Ian Gough - Welsh
Ian Evans,James Goode - Welsh
Ryan Jones,Tom Smith - Welsh they also have Chauncey O'Toole who is Canadien but has only played 5 games.(what a waste as he is off next year)
Jonathan Thomas, Joe Bearman - Welsh, Also have George Stowers who is Samoan
Justin Tuperic - Welsh Cannot think of another 7
Rhys Webb,Kahn Fotuali'i - Welsh and Samoan
Dan Biggar, Matthew Morgan - Welsh
Ashley Beck, Andrew Bishop - Welsh
Sonny Parker, Hanno Dirksen - Welsh and WQ
Shane Williams, Nikki Walker - Welsh and Scottish
Tommy Bowe,Kristian Phillips - Irish and Welsh
Barry Davies, Richard Fussel - Welsh

All the NWQ players in that team are off at the end of the season and the only big loss is Tommy Bowe. Thus, the only reason for NWQ players is for cover. I will do one for the other regions tomorrow as I do not have all night,the Cardiff Blues should make some interesting reading

Not sure what your point is now Lord?

I'd back Leinster minus Nacewa, Thorn and VDW to beat that Ospreys side, with or without their NWQs, every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

But why didn't world class All Black, Jerry Collins, drag Osreys to the HC final, the way you think Brad Thorn has clearly dragged 19 average Irishmen to the final? Hmmm. It just doesn't add up does it?

They have lost to the Ospreys home and away this year rodders.