John Beattie - Irish Provinces a step ahead of the rest.

First topic message reminder :

John Beattie says that other countries should learn from Ireland's success at provincial level.

He points to the provinces being ahead when it comes grass roots rugby, foreign signings, the correct number of teams (4) and coaching. He also takes about an 'X Factor' in Irish rugby which he describes as "a strength in depth and a coaching pool of talent that is multi-national and highly paid."

I agree with him on a lot of these points, grass roots rugby in Ireland has rocketed in the past 10 years, in term of the number of schools that play it and the number of fans there are now. Foreign signings, we are definitely leading the way, granted the French clubs buy some brilliant players as well, but the Scottish, English and Welsh teams don't seem to sign the same calibre of player very often, they seem more likely to buy a larger number of good players instead of a small number of brilliant players. We have what he calls a 'handy number of teams' and with regard to coaching we have top coaches not just at the provinces but at other top clubs as well (Bradley at Edinburgh, O'Shea at Harlequins, McCall at Saracens etc.)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/johnbeattie/2012/04/irish_lead_the_way_thanks_to_s.html

rodders wrote: Boom! Take that one fly! Sin E has clipped your wings now!

Kidney isn't too blame for Fitzgerald and TOL's form because hes been to busy fixing Healy and Best!

Heaslip is mentally traumatised by the red card he got in 2010!

It all makes sense!!

Yep, as Quinlan said in his article, it takes just one or two to underperform for all the doubt to start bothering them (and Heislip's team mates not to start trusting that he is a go-to player, which is what he was before that incident.

Sin é wrote:
Pope is a former coach of St. Marys and still hangs out there. Thats Sexton's club, so you can discount anything he has to say on the subject. Guscutt is an ejit. Dayglo likes the sound of his own voice.

Sexton was dropped during the world cup because his kicking ratio was 40%. That was not Kidneys or ROG's fault. It was his own.

I think you will find that it was BOD who decided when ROG should kick. Apart from anything else, the Welsh were going to have a field day giving away penalties if they knew Ireland had Sexton on the pitch.

eh, Foley isn't a kiwi and he is the Munster forwards coach and will remain so. He filled in for Gert Smal during the 6ns.

....and Quinlan (loved him as a player - Ireland + Munster) is from Munster - the home of the man who nurtured him at Munster and who is now under fire as International coach. But no, I won't discount Quinlan's comments because of the natural link.

Sin é wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:When they play for their respective provinces they seem to play with much more effort, they seem more galvanised if you will, but, when the same players turn out for Ireland they seem less inclined to put their bodies on the line, less galvanised if you like.

The players are running themselves into the ground to follow Kidneys plan. All that tackling is requiring them to expend huge amounts of energy. They were dead on their feet with 20 minutes to go in the RWC quarter final. Same in the 6 Nations. They let an 8 point lead slip because they were pooped (and Wales were excellent too mind you).

Crickey - where did you get that info? Wales won the world cup QF because they made all the tackles. Ireland had 58% possession. Wales made 150 tackles to Ireland's 100.

I thought that as well, I just didn't want to say because I think I have caused enough trouble on this thread already but what I will say though is this, Wales's game plan is not that dissimilar from Ireland's where we base everything on defence and territory and take our chances when they come, it is just we seem fitter than most nations at the moment.

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Pope is a former coach of St. Marys and still hangs out there. Thats Sexton's club, so you can discount anything he has to say on the subject. Guscutt is an ejit. Dayglo likes the sound of his own voice.

Sexton was dropped during the world cup because his kicking ratio was 40%. That was not Kidneys or ROG's fault. It was his own.

I think you will find that it was BOD who decided when ROG should kick. Apart from anything else, the Welsh were going to have a field day giving away penalties if they knew Ireland had Sexton on the pitch.

eh, Foley isn't a kiwi and he is the Munster forwards coach and will remain so. He filled in for Gert Smal during the 6ns.

....and Quinlan (loved him as a player - Ireland + Munster) is from Munster - the home of the man who nurtured him at Munster and who is now under fire as International coach. But no, I won't discount Quinlan's comments because of the natural link.

Quinlan wasn't defending Kidney He was explaining why teams might perform at club level, but don't at international level.

I read an article where Tana Umaga made similar types of comments about playing Super Rugby v All Blacks and how difficult it was to switch from one to another.

LordDowlais wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:When they play for their respective provinces they seem to play with much more effort, they seem more galvanised if you will, but, when the same players turn out for Ireland they seem less inclined to put their bodies on the line, less galvanised if you like.

The players are running themselves into the ground to follow Kidneys plan. All that tackling is requiring them to expend huge amounts of energy. They were dead on their feet with 20 minutes to go in the RWC quarter final. Same in the 6 Nations. They let an 8 point lead slip because they were pooped (and Wales were excellent too mind you).

Crickey - where did you get that info? Wales won the world cup QF because they made all the tackles. Ireland had 58% possession. Wales made 150 tackles to Ireland's 100.

I thought that as well, I just didn't want to say because I think I have caused enough trouble on this thread already but what I will say though is this, Wales's game plan is not that dissimilar from Ireland's where we base everything on defence and territory and take our chances when they come, it is just we seem fitter than most nations at the moment.

In fairness, tackling Jamie Roberts is going to take a bit more energy than tackling Gordon D'Arcy (or North v Earls).

Sin é wrote:
Quinlan wasn't defending Kidney He was explaining why teams might perform at club level, but don't at international level.

Oh right. Sounds like a defence of International coaching to me - given that Ireland are close to being the only side suffering from a clearly defined downswing at International level rather than an upswing or a steady-eddie. So Quinlan's only really talking about one team, one group of players and one group of coaches.

Sin é wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:When they play for their respective provinces they seem to play with much more effort, they seem more galvanised if you will, but, when the same players turn out for Ireland they seem less inclined to put their bodies on the line, less galvanised if you like.

The players are running themselves into the ground to follow Kidneys plan. All that tackling is requiring them to expend huge amounts of energy. They were dead on their feet with 20 minutes to go in the RWC quarter final. Same in the 6 Nations. They let an 8 point lead slip because they were pooped (and Wales were excellent too mind you).

Crickey - where did you get that info? Wales won the world cup QF because they made all the tackles. Ireland had 58% possession. Wales made 150 tackles to Ireland's 100.

I thought that as well, I just didn't want to say because I think I have caused enough trouble on this thread already but what I will say though is this, Wales's game plan is not that dissimilar from Ireland's where we base everything on defence and territory and take our chances when they come, it is just we seem fitter than most nations at the moment.

In fairness, tackling Jamie Roberts is going to take a bit more energy than tackling Gordon D'Arcy (or North v Earls).

fair enough I will give you that one.

LordDowlais wrote:

Mickado wrote:Lord, your argument boils down to your opinion that the biggest difference between the national team and the provinces is that there are NIQ’s at the province.

Lets look at Leinster:

Strauss, Thorn and Nacewa.
Replace them with Best, O’Connell and Bowe.

Are our NIQ players really THAT much better that you think they’re the difference between how Ireland play and how Leinster play?

Those three are truly awsome players but alas they are not at Leinster they are at Munster, I would argue though that nacewa and thorn are better than o' Connell and bowe, I am actually of the opinion that nacewa is the best player in Britain and Ireland in his position, but the way I see it is if they played for Leinster it would be much the same as Ireland are now, not tactically but mentally, for Ireland the "goto" men as see it are Brian o'driscoll, Rory best, Paul o'connell you put these guys with the niq players in the provinces and you have a winning formula, I am not taking anything away from the kearneys and the Bowes and the back rowers you have kearney is a world class player, but your back rowers do not do it on a consistent level for club or country, as I have whitnessed against wales the past few games, these players are pro's and if they cannot do it at the next level then questions should be asked of them

That would be last years European player of the year and this years nominated European player of the year are inconsistent?

Also ferris along with Kearney was our best player in the 6N.

You can argue that the balance of our back row is wrong or that the dereliction of duties between the three players is poor. Heaslip has under performed that is true also but yet he is still picked. Mark against kidney IMO. As has been stated kidney had it spot on under the old interpretations. He is clueless under the new ones but perhaps a new backs coach will solve this (nearly a year in the waiting for one though).

As has been mentioned above Leinster are the least reliant on NIQs in Europe and to suggest at nacewa is the reason behind their success is idiotic. Thorn has played only 2 HEC games remember. they were doing ok before he showed up. Strauss is much of a muchless with Cronin judging in this season.

This started out as a thread about what the provinces are doing right, but has become more about what Ireland are doing wrong. We all have our theories. And I think we're all guilty of entirely discounting others in favour of our own. It's probably a bit of everything.

Lord's theory on foreigners certainly stands up in the case of tighthead depth. But I can't see how it applies anywhere else.

I think my views on the contrast between Kidney's tactics and Schmidt's have plenty of merit.

So do Quinlan's idea's on the players not adjusting to the Irish team well and some players simply not performing as well in green.

There's also the fact that England and Wales are actually better now than they were when we used to beat them regularly.

The fact is Irish teams are dominating the HC and the PRO12, but unlike previous English and French domination in Europe, in Ireland's case it is not translating into international success. It's not even translating into international competitiveness with the top teams. We're losing almost every game we play against top 8 teams, and we have been for 3 years.

Maybe it would be more constructive to float some idea's about how this can be turned around?

1. There are already IRFU plans in place to restrict foreigners so not much discussion required.

2. What should Kidney change tactiacally or should he change anything?

3. How do you make players more comfortable and confident at international level? I personally think to many players are uncomfortable with the tactics gameplan, but suppose I'm wrong. The IRFU has total control in Irish rugby. Could they pull players from the provinces to spend more time together in Ireland camps?

Ireland are probably a naturally 6th or 7th world ranked team based on the number of pro players they have. EOS had them higher, Kidney has them lower - the only sensible conclusion is that Kidney is not getting the best out of these players.

Standulstermen wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Mickado wrote:Lord, your argument boils down to your opinion that the biggest difference between the national team and the provinces is that there are NIQ’s at the province.

Lets look at Leinster:

Strauss, Thorn and Nacewa.
Replace them with Best, O’Connell and Bowe.

Are our NIQ players really THAT much better that you think they’re the difference between how Ireland play and how Leinster play?

Those three are truly awsome players but alas they are not at Leinster they are at Munster, I would argue though that nacewa and thorn are better than o' Connell and bowe, I am actually of the opinion that nacewa is the best player in Britain and Ireland in his position, but the way I see it is if they played for Leinster it would be much the same as Ireland are now, not tactically but mentally, for Ireland the "goto" men as see it are Brian o'driscoll, Rory best, Paul o'connell you put these guys with the niq players in the provinces and you have a winning formula, I am not taking anything away from the kearneys and the Bowes and the back rowers you have kearney is a world class player, but your back rowers do not do it on a consistent level for club or country, as I have whitnessed against wales the past few games, these players are pro's and if they cannot do it at the next level then questions should be asked of them

That would be last years European player of the year and this years nominated European player of the year are inconsistent?

Also ferris along with Kearney was our best player in the 6N.

You can argue that the balance of our back row is wrong or that the dereliction of duties between the three players is poor. Heaslip has under performed that is true also but yet he is still picked. Mark against kidney IMO. As has been stated kidney had it spot on under the old interpretations. He is clueless under the new ones but perhaps a new backs coach will solve this (nearly a year in the waiting for one though).

As has been mentioned above Leinster are the least reliant on NIQs in Europe and to suggest at nacewa is the reason behind their success is idiotic. Thorn has played only 2 HEC games remember. they were doing ok before he showed up. Strauss is much of a muchless with Cronin judging in this season.

They are professional players though, and this combination talk is rubbish, ferris is a six, heaslip is an eight, o.k I will give sob should be a six also, but two thirds are playing in there preferred positions, and professional players they should be expected to adapt, you do not see Ryan jones moaning when he is played at lock or six or eight, he just gets on with it professionally .

Oh, and he stil does a decent job in all those positions.

LordDowlais wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Mickado wrote:Lord, your argument boils down to your opinion that the biggest difference between the national team and the provinces is that there are NIQ’s at the province.

Lets look at Leinster:

Strauss, Thorn and Nacewa.
Replace them with Best, O’Connell and Bowe.

Are our NIQ players really THAT much better that you think they’re the difference between how Ireland play and how Leinster play?

Those three are truly awsome players but alas they are not at Leinster they are at Munster, I would argue though that nacewa and thorn are better than o' Connell and bowe, I am actually of the opinion that nacewa is the best player in Britain and Ireland in his position, but the way I see it is if they played for Leinster it would be much the same as Ireland are now, not tactically but mentally, for Ireland the "goto" men as see it are Brian o'driscoll, Rory best, Paul o'connell you put these guys with the niq players in the provinces and you have a winning formula, I am not taking anything away from the kearneys and the Bowes and the back rowers you have kearney is a world class player, but your back rowers do not do it on a consistent level for club or country, as I have whitnessed against wales the past few games, these players are pro's and if they cannot do it at the next level then questions should be asked of them

That would be last years European player of the year and this years nominated European player of the year are inconsistent?

Also ferris along with Kearney was our best player in the 6N.

You can argue that the balance of our back row is wrong or that the dereliction of duties between the three players is poor. Heaslip has under performed that is true also but yet he is still picked. Mark against kidney IMO. As has been stated kidney had it spot on under the old interpretations. He is clueless under the new ones but perhaps a new backs coach will solve this (nearly a year in the waiting for one though).

As has been mentioned above Leinster are the least reliant on NIQs in Europe and to suggest at nacewa is the reason behind their success is idiotic. Thorn has played only 2 HEC games remember. they were doing ok before he showed up. Strauss is much of a muchless with Cronin judging in this season.

They are professional players though, and this combination talk is rubbish, ferris is a six, heaslip is an eight, o.k I will give sob should be a six also, but two thirds are playing in there preferred positions, and professional players they should be expected to adapt, you do not see Ryan jones moaning when he is played at lock or six or eight, he just gets on with it professionally .

Your missing the point

Ferris - consistent for both ulster and Ireland
Heaslip- consistent for Leinster but not Ireland
Sob- relatively consistent for Ireland but excellent for Leinster.

I just don't see where our back rowers are inconsistent like you claim. Ferris has been probably the best back rower in europe this season taking into account internationals and club. Sob was last season.

Oh and I agree Ryan jones has been brilliant for Wales this season. Pleased for him. Always came across well.

Standulstermen wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Mickado wrote:Lord, your argument boils down to your opinion that the biggest difference between the national team and the provinces is that there are NIQ’s at the province.

Lets look at Leinster:

Strauss, Thorn and Nacewa.
Replace them with Best, O’Connell and Bowe.

Are our NIQ players really THAT much better that you think they’re the difference between how Ireland play and how Leinster play?

Those three are truly awsome players but alas they are not at Leinster they are at Munster, I would argue though that nacewa and thorn are better than o' Connell and bowe, I am actually of the opinion that nacewa is the best player in Britain and Ireland in his position, but the way I see it is if they played for Leinster it would be much the same as Ireland are now, not tactically but mentally, for Ireland the "goto" men as see it are Brian o'driscoll, Rory best, Paul o'connell you put these guys with the niq players in the provinces and you have a winning formula, I am not taking anything away from the kearneys and the Bowes and the back rowers you have kearney is a world class player, but your back rowers do not do it on a consistent level for club or country, as I have whitnessed against wales the past few games, these players are pro's and if they cannot do it at the next level then questions should be asked of them

That would be last years European player of the year and this years nominated European player of the year are inconsistent?

Also ferris along with Kearney was our best player in the 6N.

You can argue that the balance of our back row is wrong or that the dereliction of duties between the three players is poor. Heaslip has under performed that is true also but yet he is still picked. Mark against kidney IMO. As has been stated kidney had it spot on under the old interpretations. He is clueless under the new ones but perhaps a new backs coach will solve this (nearly a year in the waiting for one though).

As has been mentioned above Leinster are the least reliant on NIQs in Europe and to suggest at nacewa is the reason behind their success is idiotic. Thorn has played only 2 HEC games remember. they were doing ok before he showed up. Strauss is much of a muchless with Cronin judging in this season.

They are professional players though, and this combination talk is rubbish, ferris is a six, heaslip is an eight, o.k I will give sob should be a six also, but two thirds are playing in there preferred positions, and professional players they should be expected to adapt, you do not see Ryan jones moaning when he is played at lock or six or eight, he just gets on with it professionally .

Your missing the point

Ferris - consistent for both ulster and Ireland
Heaslip- consistent for Leinster but not Ireland
Sob- relatively consistent for Ireland but excellent for Leinster.

I just don't see where our back rowers are inconsistent like you claim. Ferris has been probably the best back rower in europe this season taking into account internationals and club. Sob was last season.

Not in the six nations they weren't. Also, I was not that impressed with them against us in the world cup. One game against the Aussies does not prove anything, as we keep reminding the English posters on here, they should be consistently good if you ask me.

You seem to be breaking this down to a Wales v Ireland backrow debate which is pointless. I could just as easily say warburton, lydiate and faletau are incosistent because they don't really perform like they can for the blues or Dragons (edit) Anyway it's clear we have watched very different games of rugby in the past 12 months

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Quinlan wasn't defending Kidney He was explaining why teams might perform at club level, but don't at international level.

Oh right. Sounds like a defence of International coaching to me - given that Ireland are close to being the only side suffering from a clearly defined downswing at International level rather than an upswing or a steady-eddie. So Quinlan's only really talking about one team, one group of players and one group of coaches.

To take the emphasis away from Ireland/Kidney, I also quoted Tana Umaga making similar comments about the players coming into the All Blacks in that it was very hard for them (he was talking about Graham Henry when he took over around 2004). Seem to remember they addressed this issue coming into the 2007 world cup by taking all the ABs out of the Top 14. And then they had two AB teams going at one stage.

Standulstermen wrote:You seem to be breaking this down to a Wales v Ireland backrow debate which is pointless. I could just as easily say warburton, lydiate and faletau are incosistent because they don't really perform like they can for the blues or Dragons (edit) Anyway it's clear we have watched very different games of rugby in the past 12 months

Yeah, your right enough, let's stop before it gets out of hand

It's a parallel Universe alright!!! - at least we solved that one.

I don't think I'll wear the monkey suit to the Nobel Do though - so uncouth. Better the chinos and the pinstriped tee-shirt ...oh yeah, and my Ferrari woman.

SecretFly wrote:It's a parallel Universe alright!!! - at least we solved that one.

I don't think I'll wear the monkey suit to the Nobel Do though - so uncouth. Better the chinos and the pinstriped tee-shirt ...oh yeah, and my Ferrari woman.

What are you on about ? I think this debate has somewhat fried your brain

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:It's a parallel Universe alright!!! - at least we solved that one.

I don't think I'll wear the monkey suit to the Nobel Do though - so uncouth. Better the chinos and the pinstriped tee-shirt ...oh yeah, and my Ferrari woman.

What are you on about ? I think this debate has somewhat fried your brain

You can only burn something that was fried before the debate even begun, Lord Burnt brain, charred brain.

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:It's a parallel Universe alright!!! - at least we solved that one.

I don't think I'll wear the monkey suit to the Nobel Do though - so uncouth. Better the chinos and the pinstriped tee-shirt ...oh yeah, and my Ferrari woman.

What are you on about ? I think this debate has somewhat fried your brain

You can only burn something that was fried before the debate even begun, Lord Burnt brain, charred brain.

Me too, this has been some debate, perhaps something different tomorrow

See you around Lord - hopefully not back at this one though!

I wish Scotland had Ireland's problems instead of our own!

Sin é wrote:
I wouldn't be having a crack at Ulster if you weren't telling me how brilliant they are at providing props. Even Munster could provide an IQ front row - the point is that they wouldn't be good enough to play international rugby. Simon Best was a huge loss to both Ulster & Ireland in a similar way that the Claw, Hayes, Horan and Buckley have been.

What I am saying is Ulster have under the new management put together a plan that is likely to result in Ulster producing an all Irish front row squad in a couple of years.
Withing that set up will be two of the most promising young props - McAllister and Macklin
A decent LH - Court and the player best equipped to play both sides - Fitzpatrick.
I am not claiming brilliance now, I am claiming that of all the provinces Ulster are best placed to provide props for Ireland in the years ahead. I simply dont see Munster providing a significant contribution (that is in no way decrying the fact Munster were the Irish province for props in the '00's)

Thats not a bad return. As mentioned in the last 5 years we have done this with less NIQ props than any other provinces. We are improving our coaching quality and it is starting to show dividends. THe 2 NIQ props we have employed have been instrumental in that improvement, as was Reggie Corrigan before them.

Sin é wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

The reality is Ireland are in a bad place re TH and the likes of Fitzpatrick, Andress and Hagan may not be good enough for a top side but they are the best we, Ireland, have for TH and should be given game time in dead matches like the last 6N game. TH is the one position Ireland are looking over a cliff.

If Ross breaks a leg in the HC final who the hell do we take to NZ ?
Also Ulster wanted to play Fitzpatrick against Connacht recently but Kidney inssited in continuing with the stupid idea of playing Court at TH. We were force to play Court. Fitzpatrick lost game time not because of Ulster but because of Kidney.
Ulster do rate Fitzpatricks scrummaging technique - they don't rate his fitness.
A piece of sound judgement from what I have seen.

I agree with you about Ireland being in a bad place with regard to tighthead, but you really can't be blaming Kidney for that. The provinces have a lot to answer for in this regard.

Surely Ulster should be able to sort out Fitzpatrick's fitness.

I don't blame Kidney for the quality available but I do blame him for the failure to expose any of the viable backups - Hagan, Andress, Fitzpatrick to game time (in fact none have even been included in the squad). He continues to persist with Court as his TH back up - that is plain stupid.

We are now in a situation where we are an injury away from going on tour to NZ with no one who can play TH having any international experience - not 1 minute. That is crazy.

Ulster have been trying to improve Fitzpatrick's fitness. At the start of the season he was on a special training program. The neck injury before Christmas has put him back. I am sure they will continue to try and get him fitter. That is why I see him as the bench player rather than the backup. If he has to come on for 25 mins or so he will be ok.

[quote="LordDowlais"]

SecretFly wrote:
Secretfly, seriously, your are doing my head in now, why on earth would I want a downright capitulation of the provinces ? You seriously think I am that bitter ? Look, this is the way I look at it, and we will take rubbish tactics by coaches out of it, these players are professionals aren't they ? When they play for their respective provinces they seem to play with much more effort, they seem more galvanised if you will, but, when the same players turn out for Ireland they seem less inclined to put their bodies on the line, less galvanised if you like. Now let's find the common denomenator in all this, what is missing from the ireland team that they have at their regions, hey presto, I know, good coaches. So to me the ability of the players will always be there, but it those extra two or three inches when you need inspiration on the pitch to give you that little extra umpf. They seem to find it at provincial level but not international level, and that is why I think that the good coaches are so important to your regions. If they start doing it without them for Ireland then I will agree with you, but until then we will have to agree to disagree.

Fixed that for you.

[quote="asoreleftshoulder"]

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
Secretfly, seriously, your are doing my head in now, why on earth would I want a downright capitulation of the provinces ? You seriously think I am that bitter ? Look, this is the way I look at it, and we will take rubbish tactics by coaches out of it, these players are professionals aren't they ? When they play for their respective provinces they seem to play with much more effort, they seem more galvanised if you will, but, when the same players turn out for Ireland they seem less inclined to put their bodies on the line, less galvanised if you like. Now let's find the common denomenator in all this, what is missing from the ireland team that they have at their regions, hey presto, I know, good coaches. So to me the ability of the players will always be there, but it those extra two or three inches when you need inspiration on the pitch to give you that little extra umpf. They seem to find it at provincial level but not international level, and that is why I think that the good coaches are so important to your regions. If they start doing it without them for Ireland then I will agree with you, but until then we will have to agree to disagree.

Fixed that for you.

Please dont drag me back into this.