Corbisiero or Marler for the loosehead shirt

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Thought i would see what common consensus is on a position of strength for England, with two young and highly promising props in Corbs and Marler could be set for a battle which could continue for a very long time.

I was impressed with Corbs in the Six Nations and I rate him as a good international player with the potential to improve into one of the world's best in a few years. His scrummaging was good, so thats the bread and butter covered, but he also showed up well around the park with a number of good carries and a high tackle count. I have'nt seen him for LI in a while so can anyone give me anything on how he's done since the 6N?

Despite Corbs' good show, Marler is really making a case for me. His club form has been superb and, vitally, his scrummaging seems to have improved from a bit dodgy into a real weapon. Tonga'uiha and Mujati aren't quite the same force as last year but they are still a formidable unit and Quins really showed up well there for me. PDJ is renowned as a strong scrummager but when he came on Marler gave him a real pasting. I have always thought that Marler's work around the park, inparticular his carrying, was not far off world class already and that if his scrums improved he could be the best loosehead in the world. For me he also has a better mentality than Corbs. Although he has gone over the top and been sent off etc I like my front row to intimidate the opposition. As a TH i would rather go to war against Corbs than Marler. Not saying Corbs is soft, but he doesnt seem as in your face as the Quins lad.

IMO Marler's case is helped by Jannie Du Plessis not being the best TH around. I would hesitate to throw Marler into a test against Adam Jones or Castro but despite its sll-round superb quality TH is one position where the Bok pack is lacking.

Wondered what your thoughts were on the question? has Marler done enough to mount a serious challenge or is he still a work in progress?

[quote="Mind the windows Tino."]

Poorfour wrote:I genuinely don't think South Africa's front row is the area of concern for the English forward pack. Not at scrum time anyway. Mtawarira is nowhere near as effective as his mystique allows. Put him against a TH with solid technique and he is just another decent international loosie at scrum time. Cole is great at taking the initial hit and keeps his back-side and left shoulder low enough which should, in theory, allow him to stop the Beast getting underneath him.

I fear the physicality of the Saffer pack around the park, but not at scrum time.

I like the idea of England having little to fear at scrum time - which would be true whoever starts. Bit of a change from the 6N! Around the park, the question is probably one of picking the right combination of locks. Our front row and back row will be mobile and will hit hard almost regardless of who's picked, but the lack of a proper enforcer at 4 might be an issue. The alternative might be to pick an ultra-mobile pack and just outpace them, but it's a high risk strategy and needs the whole team to be confident of its game.

I think there is one point about which we can all agree. Marler has improved a lot this season.

Corbs has shown he can hack it at the International level. My gut feel is to stick with Corbs for now, if healthy, but give Marler his shot off the bench. If he does well, then we have serious competition for the spot in the front row.

I think there is one point about which we can all agree. Marler has improved a lot this season

He has improved out of sight. He is the strength in the Quins front row, pair him with a decent tighthead rather than Johnston (who throws himself forward binds on the arm and prays his momentum is enough) and I think Marler will do very well indeed. Corbs has been out of sorts since the 6N and an injury he picked up recently won't have helped.

If SA are going to select Jannie Du Plessis at hooker than I say we go with Marler. Jannie has a temper issue and Marler will get right under his skin, especially, if the rest of the pack can give the England front row the drive they need in the scrum and the young English forwards turn the screw. Can you imagine the chatter that Hartley and Marler will give the Du Plessis brothers if England win the first couple of scrums? Could be a good tactical ploy for the first test whilst Corbs is getting himself right.

I agree Grey, Marler has come on leaps and bounds, just ease him into it a bit, and unleash him in the AI's!

Didn't think of that Sam, but the chatter could really get under their skin. I'm worried that it could work both ways though- Marler and Hartley both have short tempers, and I'd be worried that they'd react to abuse too.

Tbf Marley hasn't been carded or even penalised lately (other then the usual scrum stuff).

He didn't even react to the last two people who punched him, just laughed them off the park.

Hartley also has been pretty controled bar a nibble.

Marley? I meant Marler...

Ive actually been impressed with Hartley lately, he seems to be getting into a better scrummaging shape, improved there and calmed down a bit.

I was never a fan but he is impressing me.

I guess you're right there Yappy, he seems to have his temper under control now.

bluesman, Hartley has improved a lot and it looks like the time off has given him a chance to focus. He was exceptional on Sunday

I thought he was good too, he used to be a clear weakness in the front row, but he seems to be adressing that. He isn't popping up around the park like he did but he is far more effective these days.

I thought England had a huge hole at Hook, but his lineouts been good, scrummaging getting better and his temper is much much more controlled.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Ive actually been impressed with Hartley lately, he seems to be getting into a better scrummaging shape, improved there and calmed down a bit.

I was never a fan but he is impressing me.

He is definitely improving in the scrum, I would agree with that. It looks to me like he has been working hard on his chest and shoulders recently as well. He looks a bit slimmer around the middle and broader accross the chest/shoulders. He used to get 'popped' an awful lot, but I think some of that stemmed from the structure of the Saints scrum. Tonga'uiha and Mujati (in particular) scrum in on an angle (technically illegal but they have got away with it for a while) and all the pressure is directed through the shoulders of the hooker, kind of like the old Argentinian method. When the opposition scrum got some pressure on in response, I just don't think Hartley coped at all well on occasion with the pure weight coming through from both sides. He seems to be getting a grip on it though and the England scrum is a more balanced one in terms of where the weight comes through.

We desperately need a good hooker to come through as back up though. Hopefully one of the new batch of youngsters will make the step up. Likewise at TH where any injury to Cole would leave us exposed.

In fairness mind England are not the only ones desperate for a back up TH!!

He didn't even react to the last two people who punched him, just laughed them off the park

He was a tad fortunate to get away with the little forearm on PDJ in the AP Semi, that could have easily been a yellow or a low end ban if seen unsympathetically.

It's a tough call and Marler has done a lot to counter his anger issues (no hint of silly stuff in the AP Final) and he deserves a start in one of the tests. Hartley has to start as Mears showed he is not good enough vs the Baabaas, Grey's lineout work was all over the place in the AP final and Youngs is inexperienced and just as aggressive if not more so than Hartley.

Putting Marler in alongside Hartley could be a blessing, it means the opposition front row will be torn on who they target for winding up taking some of the pressure off him. ta the moment Hartley is too obvious a target for his fellow bullies.

Beaker wrote:
DaveM, apologies if my comments have come across as unnecessarily argumentative. It wasn't my intention, i simply write as I think, perhaps with insufficient self-editing!

Nothing to apologise for. Marler may well turn out to be the better LH than Corbs, I've been a fan for a while and agree that he has improved hugely this season. If Marler starts I wouldn't have any worries. However, if Corbs has match fit I just think you have to play a man whose last appearance for England was so impressive.

Youngs is inexperienced and just as aggressive if not more so than Hartley

.

The plus side of course being that he wont be the slightest bit bothered by Bismarks intimidation malarky...

According to the Telegraph, Corbs sat out training on Monday. Not long left for him to prove he's match fit.

Jannie du Plessis he is being talked about as a certainty for SA at tighthead, if that's the case we have to go with Marler. Jannie is all brawn and no brains, his temper is a liability and Marler will have him conceding penalties in no time.

Any idea when the teams are announced? Surely should be today or tomorrow?

formerly known as Sam wrote:Jannie du Plessis he is being talked about as a certainty for SA at tighthead, if that's the case we have to go with Marler. Jannie is all brawn and no brains, his temper is a liability and Marler will have him conceding penalties in no time.

... and Hartley! Jannie will get even more worked up!

bambamwillis, as far as I know, South Africa's will be Wednesday and England's Thursday.

I think Marler's better, but Corbs had a fine 6n so will start if fit.

Well Marler starts! Is Corbisiero injured or is Marler just picked the form player?

I seem to remember reading that Corbisiero had something like a knee injury and hadn't played for 2 months so it had to be Marler!

He's had a bicep operation but jarred his knee in training.

Did we get our answer today?

I have been saying to have Corbs starting and then Marler to offer impact off the bench. Tired props will also help to hide the weaknesses he still has in the scrum and should give him a better chance to make his carries.

Why do coaches/pundits/fans always go weak at the knees for glamourous running props???

The best props in the world.... the best props in history are not those who could run like a winger/scored loads of tries.... they are those who come scrum time are a real force.

You have to do your core function well.

Marler is way way off being a test class scrummager. He is lightweight, he's packing against guys maybe 10kg heavier of muscle and who love to scrum.

If you're giving 2 to 3 penalties a game away it doesn't matter how fancy you pass a ball... you are not worth the risk being picked for any test side.

i do think it has to be corbs. Marler isn't bad and he'll improve but i just think cords is the stronger option.

I rest my case.

Marler just hasnt really stepped up but it's still early days for him.

Corbs is the stronger scrummager so must now start

When did Marler give away a penalty at a scrum today? We were getting on top when he was still on. It was as much to do with the Saffer changes as ours. In fact we were on top all day if it was riffed properly!

Marler offers a lot around the park and will only get better. Corbs was good off the bench and why risk him when he's just coming back from injury.