Scotland squad for SH tour

First topic message reminder :

Backs - Ansbro, Blair, Brown, Cusiter, De Luca, Evans,Grove, Hogg, Laidlaw, S Lamont, Scott, Visser and Weir.

Forwards - Barclay, Cross, Ford(c), Grant, Gray, Hall, Harley,Kellock, S Lawson, Murray, Rennie, Ryder, Strokosch, Vernon and Welsh

RDW_Scotland wrote:I have my sources....

I see.

No real reason for that one really - just like using my new smillies!

I have a few others, but not sure if they will be welcome here.

We're not easily offended us Scots - give us your best shot!

p.s. this has really gone off topic....!

As regards the not scoring - I think a fair bit of this is mental and thus Robinsons fault.

By selecting Parks against England everyone including the players knew the tactic was wrong

He induces anxiety in the team and over anxiousness when a clamer head would prevail

the selections end up with guys like NDL getting frustrated

I do blame Robinson for this. He has not got the team prepared properly

Yeah, but only for a while, someone is bound to bring it on track, it just isn't going to be me.

TJ wrote:As regards the not scoring - I think a fair bit of this is mental and thus Robinsons fault.

By selecting Parks against England everyone including the players knew the tactic was wrong

He induces anxiety in the team and over anxiousness when a clamer head would prevail

the selections end up with guys like NDL getting frustrated

I do blame Robinson for this. He has not got the team prepared properly

And as I was busy compiling my next master piece, it happens.

Why so serious TJ?

[quote="RDW_Scotland"]

Cryptoyourisan wrote:

Anglobraveheart wrote:
Hogg has put in more impressive performances at 13 this year than de Luca has...ever

Absolute rubbish! I'm assuming you've not watched any Edinburgh games this year? Or if you have, have let your dislike of De Luca taint your opinion??

Also I've seen Hoggs games at 13 and he was significantly better at fullback.

Not saying that Hogg should be played at 13, but at the same time lets not forget he got a hatrick playing there against Munster...

No no no no Hogg is a fullback, we need him at fullback. We have plenty of centres at the moment. If we were playing Hogg at 13 then we'd be looking at Mr Glass and Brown as the fullbacks. And what happens when Rory gets injured, Robbo calls up Cuthbert. Does anyone want that to happen? Thought not.

[quote="GLove39"]

RDW_Scotland wrote:

Cryptoyourisan wrote:

Anglobraveheart wrote:
Hogg has put in more impressive performances at 13 this year than de Luca has...ever

Absolute rubbish! I'm assuming you've not watched any Edinburgh games this year? Or if you have, have let your dislike of De Luca taint your opinion??

Also I've seen Hoggs games at 13 and he was significantly better at fullback.

Not saying that Hogg should be played at 13, but at the same time lets not forget he got a hatrick playing there against Munster...

One of his tries was a classic Fullbacks try and another was a poachers try...

Gents, It was crypto that wrote Hogg was a better 13, not me. I have seen all of the Edinburgh (and Glasgow) games that I can on TV, plus the HC QF in the flesh on a 450 mile round trip to do it. (I was the one shouting that the man in the middle needed to grow a backbone). I can't disagree that NDL has played well at club level, BUT, my point was that at International level he has predominantly been V poor IMO. Also IMO, I thnk Hogg is a better 15 than 13, for now.
The stats speak for themsleves as do the wonky AR selections, but my original point was that the stats suggest a psychological block.

Anglobraveheart wrote:Gents, It was crypto that wrote Hogg was a better 13, not me. I have seen all of the Edinburgh (and Glasgow) games that I can on TV, plus the HC QF in the flesh on a 450 mile round trip to do it. (I was the one shouting that the man in the middle needed to grow a backbone). I can't disagree that NDL has played well at club level, BUT, my point was that at International level he has predominantly been V poor IMO. Also IMO, I thnk Hogg is a better 15 than 13, for now.
The stats speak for themsleves as do the wonky AR selections, but my original point was that the stats suggest a psychological block.

+1

Christ Almighty! Can none of you take a joke (that isn't Nick de Luca)? It's not really much of an achievement being the form Scottish 13 when Ansbro has been either crocked, playing at 12 or on the wing all season, Grove plays for Worcester and Lineen's selection policy in the centres throughout this season has been approaching Rob Moffat levels of inconsistency, e.g. Nathan, and Morrison there for the first time in three or four years in the semi-final.

My basic point is that picking on club form whilst ignoring numerous faux pas for Scotland is not necessarily advisable. We already know what we're getting with de Luca, i.e. not an international-quality centre, whereas Grove has had two caps at 13 and Ansbro has actually been pretty decent for us there. In short, by taking de Luca we limit the game time that Ansbro and Grove will get and basically have to start Matt Scott at 12 for all three games (assuming he doesn't get crocked/overlooked because of his 'inexperience' and Robinson doesn't resort to Ansbro or Lamont at 12). Robinson and, I would assume, most of the Scottish posters on here will be in the 'must win' category for this summer tour. That's fine and I don't particularly want to see us lose to Fiji or Samoa. However, taking Dunbar is not that much more of a risk than taking Scott and if we still lose two or three games on this tour, Robinson will probably lose his job and will have left us with little, if any, clue as to what our best back-line at test level is.

If you're advocating Dunbar then I'm in agreement. I'd have taken him ahead of Sean Lamont or Alex Grove personally. Dunbar would have given a genuine option at 12 or 13, and is on great form.

I'd be perfectly happy for Ansbro to start 13 against Australia (A), I seriously don't think there's much between the 13 options. I'd give NDL one game between Scott and Visser and then give Grove the last game. It's a position under much debate and worth seeing all the options.

Cryptoyourisan wrote:
My basic point is that picking on club form whilst ignoring numerous faux pas for Scotland is not necessarily advisable. We already know what we're getting with de Luca, i.e. not an international-quality centre, whereas Grove has had two caps at 13 and Ansbro has actually been pretty decent for us there. In short, by taking de Luca we limit the game time that Ansbro and Grove will get and basically have to start Matt Scott at 12 for all three games (assuming he doesn't get crocked/overlooked because of his 'inexperience' and Robinson doesn't resort to Ansbro or Lamont at 12). Robinson and, I would assume, most of the Scottish posters on here will be in the 'must win' category for this summer tour. That's fine and I don't particularly want to see us lose to Fiji or Samoa. However, taking Dunbar is not that much more of a risk than taking Scott and if we still lose two or three games on this tour, Robinson will probably lose his job and will have left us with little, if any, clue as to what our best back-line at test level is.

+1

The real danger of ignoring club form as a general matter (and I'm not just talking about NDL here) is what other basis do you judge on? Andy Robinson's instincts?? No thanks.

The benefits are clear. You motivate club players and show that there's a meritocracy in place. Play well and you get picked. Play badly, or not as well as your rivals, and you don't. The problem is that in recent times Andy Robinson has FAILED to pick on club form, much to the annoyance of many of us on here. His initial 6 Nations selections were entirely based on his guesswork as to who would do well in an international jersey, and had NOTHING to do with who was actually producing the goods week in week out.

I do agree that you have to be flexible sometimes. In general I'd say Jackson has had a positive influence as a Scotland player, despite never really playing well enough a club level to deserve it. I'm not in favour of dogma, but I do think you've got to have pretty good reasons to neglect what goes on at club level.

In this case you actually have three or four pretty good candidates for one position. Frankly, whoever plays 13 (provided it isn't Hogg or Lamont), I won't be too concerned.

funnyExiledScot wrote:The real danger of ignoring club form as a general matter (and I'm not just talking about NDL here) is what other basis do you judge on? Andy Robinson's instincts?? No thanks.

The benefits are clear. You motivate club players and show that there's a meritocracy in place. Play well and you get picked. Play badly, or not as well as your rivals, and you don't. The problem is that in recent times Andy Robinson has FAILED to pick on club form, much to the annoyance of many of us on here. His initial 6 Nations selections were entirely based on his guesswork as to who would do well in an international jersey, and had NOTHING to do with who was actually producing the goods week in week out.

Not to kick at a dead horse or anything but Edinburgh and Glasgow's club form needs to be taken with a quite a lot of salt. Edinburgh have been unspeakably awful in their domestic league this season and Glasgow could probably have had a home semi-final, had they been a more focused and less boring side.

Not so much kicking the horse as boiling it to glue Crypto.

Glasgow's playing style is actually very focused and effective, although I agree with you that it can be dull.

What I do agree with is that whilst there was every argument for starting Dunbar now (these AIs don't matter as anything other than test balloons, really), to put Scott and Dunbar (very inexperienced, relatively) against AAC and Berrick Barnes would be a great education for them but may also completely dingo their confidence.

Nobody makes fun of De Lukewarm more than me, and certainly nobody enjoys doing so more . However, the man is the most consistently fine club 13 that we have. Let's not forget the good parts. Hiss break and faded float pass to Ansbro for the try was the only reason that we beat Ireland in the pre-WC warm up game.

fES, you are right about club form being the predominant criterion for selection, but we should also accept that in every sport, there will be players who look international class at club level but who are unable for whatever reason to translate that into international form. I believe that there's a strong chance that NDL is one of those sadly, that there may well be some sort of mental block that sees him go to pieces on the international stage.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:fES, you are right about club form being the predominant criterion for selection, but we should also accept that in every sport, there will be players who look international class at club level but who are unable for whatever reason to translate that into international form. I believe that there's a strong chance that NDL is one of those sadly, that there may well be some sort of mental block that sees him go to pieces on the international stage.

I agree, but you've also got to give 'form' players a fair crack at the whip. For example not playing Nick De Luca (one of our most creative and naturally talented backs) outside a crash ball, none passing inside centre, like Morrison or Schlong, and / or a pedestrian, kicking 10, like Parks.

We've seen what De Luca can do outside a Scott and a Laidlaw at club level, no lets see if it works on the international stage. I firmly believe we'll be pleasantly surprised... and we won't see some of the mistakes that come from obvious frustration, lack of space and being starved of decent ball.

Cryptoyourisan wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:The real danger of ignoring club form as a general matter (and I'm not just talking about NDL here) is what other basis do you judge on? Andy Robinson's instincts?? No thanks.

The benefits are clear. You motivate club players and show that there's a meritocracy in place. Play well and you get picked. Play badly, or not as well as your rivals, and you don't. The problem is that in recent times Andy Robinson has FAILED to pick on club form, much to the annoyance of many of us on here. His initial 6 Nations selections were entirely based on his guesswork as to who would do well in an international jersey, and had NOTHING to do with who was actually producing the goods week in week out.

Not to kick at a dead horse or anything but Edinburgh and Glasgow's club form needs to be taken with a quite a lot of salt. Edinburgh have been unspeakably awful in their domestic league this season and Glasgow could probably have had a home semi-final, had they been a more focused and less boring side.

Probably also worth noting then that Edinburgh's league form has been hampered by missing International players and players being rested to focus on the HC whilst having a tiny squad with a real lack of quality in reserves. In the games where the full strength team has been played (HC games) then Edinburgh have played very well and had an excellent season.

I'd hardly describe Glasgow as needing to be "more focused"!!

They were extremely focused this season. Where you rightly point to their failing is the inability to secure try scoring bonus points. Glasgow played a very structured game plan with Weir and Morrison tending to keep the ball close to the forwards. Once Dunbar and DTH were utilised, in conjunction with Hogg, things improved.

Funny how teams with Morrison at 12 tend not to wrack up tries. Probably just a coincidence.

Bit off topic, but as the choice of centre has been discussed here, thought you guys might be interested in seeing Bennett's try for Clermont in the under-23 final. Will be interesting to see how he gets on with the u20s in South Africa.

Skip to 6 mins in

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xqyto1_resume-asm-usap-espoirs-finale-du-championnat-de-france-2011-2012_sport?search_algo=1

Thanks for that. At work, but I'll certainly watch that when I get home.

ASBO will be dribbling with excitement

EWT Spoons wrote:

Cryptoyourisan wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:The real danger of ignoring club form as a general matter (and I'm not just talking about NDL here) is what other basis do you judge on? Andy Robinson's instincts?? No thanks.

The benefits are clear. You motivate club players and show that there's a meritocracy in place. Play well and you get picked. Play badly, or not as well as your rivals, and you don't. The problem is that in recent times Andy Robinson has FAILED to pick on club form, much to the annoyance of many of us on here. His initial 6 Nations selections were entirely based on his guesswork as to who would do well in an international jersey, and had NOTHING to do with who was actually producing the goods week in week out.

Not to kick at a dead horse or anything but Edinburgh and Glasgow's club form needs to be taken with a quite a lot of salt. Edinburgh have been unspeakably awful in their domestic league this season and Glasgow could probably have had a home semi-final, had they been a more focused and less boring side.

Probably also worth noting then that Edinburgh's league form has been hampered by missing International players and players being rested to focus on the HC whilst having a tiny squad with a real lack of quality in reserves. In the games where the full strength team has been played (HC games) then Edinburgh have played very well and had an excellent season.

Rubbish. Edinburgh's full-strength team lost 54-13 to Leinster A in the league.

Crypto is right on this one (and this one only....). Didn't matter who played, Edinburgh were strong in the HC and dire in the league.

To be fair, it was 6 days after the Toulouse game, the guys had absolutely nothing to play for and didn't want to get injured for the Semi final.

I'm not denying our team has been really bad in the league, but before people get all high and mighty about one off results like that they need to think about the circumstances around it!

A lot has been made of NdL and the 13 jersey but I am just wondering what a 9/10 axis of Laidlaw and Weir would bring to the table. To be honest, I've not seen a lot of Laidlaw at 9 but I know Weir's quality at 10, as well as his late dip in form.

funnyExiledScot wrote:I'd hardly describe Glasgow as needing to be "more focused"!!

They were extremely focused this season. Where you rightly point to their failing is the inability to secure try scoring bonus points. Glasgow played a very structured game plan with Weir and Morrison tending to keep the ball close to the forwards. Once Dunbar and DTH were utilised, in conjunction with Hogg, things improved.

Funny how teams with Morrison at 12 tend not to wrack up tries. Probably just a coincidence.

It's not just a lack of TBPs; I genuinely believe that two or three of Glasgow's five (four in the league and one in the Heineken) draws should have been wins. Add that to failing to pick up TBPs, e.g. at home against Aironi, and it is pretty much the difference between playing the Ospreys at Firhill or Leinster at the RDS. If anything, I would say Glasgow struggled more as a result of losing their internationals than Edinburgh.

Laidlaw was pushing Blair all the way last season, but having spent pretty much this season changing his game to play 10, I doubt he'd have the same level of performance.

If he's going to play 9 for Scotland, he needs to be doing it week in week out IMO.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Laidlaw was pushing Blair all the way last season, but having spent pretty much this season changing his game to play 10, I doubt he'd have the same level of performance.

If he's going to play 9 for Scotland, he needs to be doing it week in week out IMO.

I really don't think that he's the right guy to play 10 for Scotland. I think his long kicking from hand in the 6N was poor and often much to short for an international fly half. I've seen his footballing skills in the sense of the chip kicks etc but I really dont think that makes up for the longer kicks. Any international side needs a guy that can hoof it up the park 50m, I've seen Hogg do it for Glasgow but you cant expect your fb to step in every time we're under pressure.

However, Duncan Weir and even to some extent Jackson has that kind of range. I know not very many people rate Jackson but I'd be interested to see him team up with Laidlaw at 9 with Laidlaw taking the goalkicking duties to take the pressure off him and let him run the game.

RDW_Scotland wrote:To be fair, it was 6 days after the Toulouse game, the guys had absolutely nothing to play for and didn't want to get injured for the Semi final.

I'm not denying our team has been really bad in the league, but before people get all high and mighty about one off results like that they need to think about the circumstances around it!

If that is the kind of attitude that they take into any game, then I would further question their temperament for international rugby. How often do Scotland actually have anything to play for (the Wooden Spoon doesn't count)? I would also question Bradley as a coach if he put out a first-choice team and told them to lie down, just in case they got crocked. The likes of a Ulster have been fairly unashamed in not playing some of their best players in the league to make sure they were fit for the Heineken.

alexgmacdonald wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Laidlaw was pushing Blair all the way last season, but having spent pretty much this season changing his game to play 10, I doubt he'd have the same level of performance.

If he's going to play 9 for Scotland, he needs to be doing it week in week out IMO.

I really don't think that he's the right guy to play 10 for Scotland. I think his long kicking from hand in the 6N was poor and often much to short for an international fly half. I've seen his footballing skills in the sense of the chip kicks etc but I really dont think that makes up for the longer kicks. Any international side needs a guy that can hoof it up the park 50m, I've seen Hogg do it for Glasgow but you cant expect your fb to step in every time we're under pressure.

However, Duncan Weir and even to some extent Jackson has that kind of range. I know not very many people rate Jackson but I'd be interested to see him team up with Laidlaw at 9 with Laidlaw taking the goalkicking duties to take the pressure off him and let him run the game.

I don't really agree that Laidlaw is too short for an international stand off. Duncan Weir is all of 5' 8" and is built like a prop as well. We're hardly a nation of giants, so I think we'll need to do with a midget if they are the real deal.

If Jackson is to have any kind of international future, his kicking will need to improve spectacularly or be accommodated and I think Laidlaw could be the answer, assuming that he is eventually returned to his correct position of scrum half. Seeing as Edinburgh have two or three scrum halves who will probably get regular game time next season, this probably won't happen. Also, Weir has had some spectacular collapses in kicking form (not just against Leinster in the semi-final).

Cryptoyourisan wrote:

alexgmacdonald wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Laidlaw was pushing Blair all the way last season, but having spent pretty much this season changing his game to play 10, I doubt he'd have the same level of performance.

If he's going to play 9 for Scotland, he needs to be doing it week in week out IMO.

I really don't think that he's the right guy to play 10 for Scotland. I think his long kicking from hand in the 6N was poor and often much to short for an international fly half. I've seen his footballing skills in the sense of the chip kicks etc but I really dont think that makes up for the longer kicks. Any international side needs a guy that can hoof it up the park 50m, I've seen Hogg do it for Glasgow but you cant expect your fb to step in every time we're under pressure.

However, Duncan Weir and even to some extent Jackson has that kind of range. I know not very many people rate Jackson but I'd be interested to see him team up with Laidlaw at 9 with Laidlaw taking the goalkicking duties to take the pressure off him and let him run the game.

I don't really agree that Laidlaw is too short for an international stand off. Duncan Weir is all of 5' 8" and is built like a prop as well. We're hardly a nation of giants, so I think we'll need to do with a midget if they are the real deal.

If Jackson is to have any kind of international future, his kicking will need to improve spectacularly or be accommodated and I think Laidlaw could be the answer, assuming that he is eventually returned to his correct position of scrum half. Seeing as Edinburgh have two or three scrum halves who will probably get regular game time next season, this probably won't happen. Also, Weir has had some spectacular collapses in kicking form (not just against Leinster in the semi-final).

I meant his kicking game is too short :P

Cryptoyourisan wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:To be fair, it was 6 days after the Toulouse game, the guys had absolutely nothing to play for and didn't want to get injured for the Semi final.

I'm not denying our team has been really bad in the league, but before people get all high and mighty about one off results like that they need to think about the circumstances around it!

If that is the kind of attitude that they take into any game, then I would further question their temperament for international rugby. How often do Scotland actually have anything to play for (the Wooden Spoon doesn't count)? I would also question Bradley as a coach if he put out a first-choice team and told them to lie down, just in case they got crocked. The likes of a Ulster have been fairly unashamed in not playing some of their best players in the league to make sure they were fit for the Heineken.

You really think Bradley told them to lie down and make sure they don't get injured??

Again I'm not defending them, but you 've got such a bee in your bonnet about it that I thought I'd point out some facts to counter your argument about them.

Yes the league form was unnaceptable but when you look at their HK performances it shows that the time was capable of big performances. Remember - we topped our group, including numerous BP wins, and only lost twice in the entire competition. You can hardly question their big game mentality - we needed a BP win against London Irish to qualify, and we absolutely destroyed them to get the win.

alexgmacdonald wrote:

Cryptoyourisan wrote:

alexgmacdonald wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Laidlaw was pushing Blair all the way last season, but having spent pretty much this season changing his game to play 10, I doubt he'd have the same level of performance.

If he's going to play 9 for Scotland, he needs to be doing it week in week out IMO.

I really don't think that he's the right guy to play 10 for Scotland. I think his long kicking from hand in the 6N was poor and often much to short for an international fly half. I've seen his footballing skills in the sense of the chip kicks etc but I really dont think that makes up for the longer kicks. Any international side needs a guy that can hoof it up the park 50m, I've seen Hogg do it for Glasgow but you cant expect your fb to step in every time we're under pressure.

However, Duncan Weir and even to some extent Jackson has that kind of range. I know not very many people rate Jackson but I'd be interested to see him team up with Laidlaw at 9 with Laidlaw taking the goalkicking duties to take the pressure off him and let him run the game.

I don't really agree that Laidlaw is too short for an international stand off. Duncan Weir is all of 5' 8" and is built like a prop as well. We're hardly a nation of giants, so I think we'll need to do with a midget if they are the real deal.

If Jackson is to have any kind of international future, his kicking will need to improve spectacularly or be accommodated and I think Laidlaw could be the answer, assuming that he is eventually returned to his correct position of scrum half. Seeing as Edinburgh have two or three scrum halves who will probably get regular game time next season, this probably won't happen. Also, Weir has had some spectacular collapses in kicking form (not just against Leinster in the semi-final).

I meant his kicking game is too short :P

Cryptoyourisan wrote:

alexgmacdonald wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Laidlaw was pushing Blair all the way last season, but having spent pretty much this season changing his game to play 10, I doubt he'd have the same level of performance.

If he's going to play 9 for Scotland, he needs to be doing it week in week out IMO.

I really don't think that he's the right guy to play 10 for Scotland. I think his long kicking from hand in the 6N was poor and often much to short for an international fly half. I've seen his footballing skills in the sense of the chip kicks etc but I really dont think that makes up for the longer kicks. Any international side needs a guy that can hoof it up the park 50m, I've seen Hogg do it for Glasgow but you cant expect your fb to step in every time we're under pressure.

However, Duncan Weir and even to some extent Jackson has that kind of range. I know not very many people rate Jackson but I'd be interested to see him team up with Laidlaw at 9 with Laidlaw taking the goalkicking duties to take the pressure off him and let him run the game.

I don't really agree that Laidlaw is too short for an international stand off. Duncan Weir is all of 5' 8" and is built like a prop as well. We're hardly a nation of giants, so I think we'll need to do with a midget if they are the real deal.

If Jackson is to have any kind of international future, his kicking will need to improve spectacularly or be accommodated and I think Laidlaw could be the answer, assuming that he is eventually returned to his correct position of scrum half. Seeing as Edinburgh have two or three scrum halves who will probably get regular game time next season, this probably won't happen. Also, Weir has had some spectacular collapses in kicking form (not just against Leinster in the semi-final).

Crypto, I think the reference was to Laidlaw’s short kicking, not his short stature (though that was obviously shown up in the defensive line a few times during the 6 Nations).

Apart from missing two (!) kicks vs Leinster, one difficult, one pretty easy by his standards, I’ve never seen Weir get a proper dose of the collywobbles with his kicking. Especially not this season, when he’s been a real Dead Eye Dick. Very close to being the Rabo’s top points scorer, and he doesn’t get many tries you know.

A 9/10 axis of Laidlaw and Weir feels like a good bet for the future to me, but that obviously depends on how often Laidlaw plays at 9 at club level. Hopefully Bradley will give Leonard and/or Hunter plenty of time in the 10 shirt next season and kill two birds with one stone – develop the youngers guys at 10 and return Laidlaw to his natural position.

RDW_Scotland wrote:

Cryptoyourisan wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:To be fair, it was 6 days after the Toulouse game, the guys had absolutely nothing to play for and didn't want to get injured for the Semi final.

I'm not denying our team has been really bad in the league, but before people get all high and mighty about one off results like that they need to think about the circumstances around it!

If that is the kind of attitude that they take into any game, then I would further question their temperament for international rugby. How often do Scotland actually have anything to play for (the Wooden Spoon doesn't count)? I would also question Bradley as a coach if he put out a first-choice team and told them to lie down, just in case they got crocked. The likes of a Ulster have been fairly unashamed in not playing some of their best players in the league to make sure they were fit for the Heineken.

You really think Bradley told them to lie down and make sure they don't get injured??

Again I'm not defending them, but you 've got such a bee in your bonnet about it that I thought I'd point out some facts to counter your argument about them.

Yes the league form was unnaceptable but when you look at their HK performances it shows that the time was capable of big performances. Remember - we topped our group, including numerous BP wins, and only lost twice in the entire competition. You can hardly question their big game mentality - we needed a BP win against London Irish to qualify, and we absolutely destroyed them to get the win.

I doubt that Bradley told them not to get injured. He would have been just as well to, though. I just didn't see any point to the exercise when they lost that badly. No one is denying that Edinburgh did well in the Heineken Cup but I would think that the English, French and Welsh sides would do better in the Heineken Cup if they attached absolutely no value to their respective leagues and were willing to/able to effectively finish bottom.

Captain_Sensible wrote:

Cryptoyourisan wrote:

alexgmacdonald wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Laidlaw was pushing Blair all the way last season, but having spent pretty much this season changing his game to play 10, I doubt he'd have the same level of performance.

If he's going to play 9 for Scotland, he needs to be doing it week in week out IMO.

I really don't think that he's the right guy to play 10 for Scotland. I think his long kicking from hand in the 6N was poor and often much to short for an international fly half. I've seen his footballing skills in the sense of the chip kicks etc but I really dont think that makes up for the longer kicks. Any international side needs a guy that can hoof it up the park 50m, I've seen Hogg do it for Glasgow but you cant expect your fb to step in every time we're under pressure.

However, Duncan Weir and even to some extent Jackson has that kind of range. I know not very many people rate Jackson but I'd be interested to see him team up with Laidlaw at 9 with Laidlaw taking the goalkicking duties to take the pressure off him and let him run the game.

I don't really agree that Laidlaw is too short for an international stand off. Duncan Weir is all of 5' 8" and is built like a prop as well. We're hardly a nation of giants, so I think we'll need to do with a midget if they are the real deal.

If Jackson is to have any kind of international future, his kicking will need to improve spectacularly or be accommodated and I think Laidlaw could be the answer, assuming that he is eventually returned to his correct position of scrum half. Seeing as Edinburgh have two or three scrum halves who will probably get regular game time next season, this probably won't happen. Also, Weir has had some spectacular collapses in kicking form (not just against Leinster in the semi-final).

Crypto, I think the reference was to Laidlaw’s short kicking, not his short stature (though that was obviously shown up in the defensive line a few times during the 6 Nations).

Apart from missing two (!) kicks vs Leinster, one difficult, one pretty easy by his standards, I’ve never seen Weir get a proper dose of the collywobbles with his kicking. Especially not this season, when he’s been a real Dead Eye Dick. Very close to being the Rabo’s top points scorer, and he doesn’t get many tries you know.

A 9/10 axis of Laidlaw and Weir feels like a good bet for the future to me, but that obviously depends on how often Laidlaw plays at 9 at club level. Hopefully Bradley will give Leonard and/or Hunter plenty of time in the 10 shirt next season and kill two birds with one stone – develop the youngers guys at 10 and return Laidlaw to his natural position.

Weir's kicking completely disintegrated in the latter part of the 2010-2011 season. In his defence, he was coming back from injury but he seemed to have changed his run-up slightly and his kicking approached Jacksonian territory. There was also the complete state that the pitch at Firhill was last season to contend with, when it looked about 85% sand and 15% mud.

So what was your original point again?

You've questioned their temperament to international rugby and I've said that, at Heineken cup level (which some argue is the same kind of intensity as an international) they have shown that they are more than capable of producing the goods. Surely therefore they will be OK at International level?

RDW_Scotland wrote:So what was your original point again?

You've questioned their temperament to international rugby and I've said that, at Heineken cup level (which some argue is the same kind of intensity as an international) they have shown that they are more than capable of producing the goods. Surely therefore they will be OK at International level?

I don't think I had a point originally. It was more doom-mongering than anything. I do think that suggesting that Heineken Cup performances can be equated with test rugby is a bit daft, e.g. look at the contrasting fortunes of the Irish and Welsh national sides in relation to their clubs.

That's a good point about the Irish and the Welsh I suppose, but I was more meaning that HK games have pretty much the same intensity and pressures as International games - if they have the temperament to cope with that they should also have the same temperament to cope with International rugby.

RDW_Scotland wrote:That's a good point about the Irish and the Welsh I suppose, but I was more meaning that HK games have pretty much the same intensity and pressures as International games - if they have the temperament to cope with that they should also have the same temperament to cope with International rugby.

I think you're wrong. I think theres a big step up from Heineken Cup to International, I remember one of the Irish players saying that. International rugby you are playing international stadiums with sold out crowd who are very passionate about their country and you are playing against essentially the 15 best players in that country.

Captain_Sensible wrote:

Cryptoyourisan wrote:

alexgmacdonald wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Laidlaw was pushing Blair all the way last season, but having spent pretty much this season changing his game to play 10, I doubt he'd have the same level of performance.

If he's going to play 9 for Scotland, he needs to be doing it week in week out IMO.

I really don't think that he's the right guy to play 10 for Scotland. I think his long kicking from hand in the 6N was poor and often much to short for an international fly half. I've seen his footballing skills in the sense of the chip kicks etc but I really dont think that makes up for the longer kicks. Any international side needs a guy that can hoof it up the park 50m, I've seen Hogg do it for Glasgow but you cant expect your fb to step in every time we're under pressure.

However, Duncan Weir and even to some extent Jackson has that kind of range. I know not very many people rate Jackson but I'd be interested to see him team up with Laidlaw at 9 with Laidlaw taking the goalkicking duties to take the pressure off him and let him run the game.

I don't really agree that Laidlaw is too short for an international stand off. Duncan Weir is all of 5' 8" and is built like a prop as well. We're hardly a nation of giants, so I think we'll need to do with a midget if they are the real deal.

If Jackson is to have any kind of international future, his kicking will need to improve spectacularly or be accommodated and I think Laidlaw could be the answer, assuming that he is eventually returned to his correct position of scrum half. Seeing as Edinburgh have two or three scrum halves who will probably get regular game time next season, this probably won't happen. Also, Weir has had some spectacular collapses in kicking form (not just against Leinster in the semi-final).

Crypto, I think the reference was to Laidlaw’s short kicking, not his short stature (though that was obviously shown up in the defensive line a few times during the 6 Nations).

Apart from missing two (!) kicks vs Leinster, one difficult, one pretty easy by his standards, I’ve never seen Weir get a proper dose of the collywobbles with his kicking. Especially not this season, when he’s been a real Dead Eye Dick. Very close to being the Rabo’s top points scorer, and he doesn’t get many tries you know.

A 9/10 axis of Laidlaw and Weir feels like a good bet for the future to me, but that obviously depends on how often Laidlaw plays at 9 at club level. Hopefully Bradley will give Leonard and/or Hunter plenty of time in the 10 shirt next season and kill two birds with one stone – develop the youngers guys at 10 and return Laidlaw to his natural position.

It looks like we're developing a system where we'll see Matt Scott at 12 take some of the kicking responsibilities. In the second five eighth role that's so en vogue elsewhere.

That will allow Laidlaw to remain at 10 for now, which he deserves to do following his form for Edinburgh.

However it also offers options should Weir nab the 10 shirt and Laidlaw revert back to 9. Long term I think that's where he will, and should be, playing for us.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Thanks for that. At work, but I'll certainly watch that when I get home.

ASBO will be dribbling with excitement

Nothing to get too excited about, fES, no more than you'd expect from a player of Bennett's quality - exactly where you'd want him to be, right on the shoulder of the player that makes the break in midfield, and a wriggle and a shimmie and he know just where the try-line is. Perhaps you could play the tape to NDL at your weekly I-must-not-lose-my-brain counselling session?

Cryptoyourisan wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:So what was your original point again?

You've questioned their temperament to international rugby and I've said that, at Heineken cup level (which some argue is the same kind of intensity as an international) they have shown that they are more than capable of producing the goods. Surely therefore they will be OK at International level?

I don't think I had a point originally. It was more doom-mongering than anything. I do think that suggesting that Heineken Cup performances can be equated with test rugby is a bit daft, e.g. look at the contrasting fortunes of the Irish and Welsh national sides in relation to their clubs.

Crypto, I suspect that has as much to do with the differing coaching styles/game plans/selection issues as player temperament or match intensity tho?

nickj wrote:It looks like we're developing a system where we'll see Matt Scott at 12 take some of the kicking responsibilities. In the second five eighth role that's so en vogue elsewhere.

That will allow Laidlaw to remain at 10 for now, which he deserves to do following his form for Edinburgh.

However it also offers options should Weir nab the 10 shirt and Laidlaw revert back to 9. Long term I think that's where he will, and should be, playing for us.

nick, that's possible altho I don't recall seeing much of that for Embra this season? Edinburgh tend to rely more on box-kicks from the SH and varying their attack from pretty much anywhere on the pitch that they almost render a territorial kicking game redundant, thereby getting round Laidlaw's shortness of boot, I would have said

Absolutely ASBO, I meant that looks like it will be the intention with the Scots. Afterall an international side needs a kicking game, we can't fudge it and run everything back at the opposition, can we?

Cryptoyourisan wrote:

EWT Spoons wrote:

Cryptoyourisan wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:The real danger of ignoring club form as a general matter (and I'm not just talking about NDL here) is what other basis do you judge on? Andy Robinson's instincts?? No thanks.

The benefits are clear. You motivate club players and show that there's a meritocracy in place. Play well and you get picked. Play badly, or not as well as your rivals, and you don't. The problem is that in recent times Andy Robinson has FAILED to pick on club form, much to the annoyance of many of us on here. His initial 6 Nations selections were entirely based on his guesswork as to who would do well in an international jersey, and had NOTHING to do with who was actually producing the goods week in week out.

Not to kick at a dead horse or anything but Edinburgh and Glasgow's club form needs to be taken with a quite a lot of salt. Edinburgh have been unspeakably awful in their domestic league this season and Glasgow could probably have had a home semi-final, had they been a more focused and less boring side.

Probably also worth noting then that Edinburgh's league form has been hampered by missing International players and players being rested to focus on the HC whilst having a tiny squad with a real lack of quality in reserves. In the games where the full strength team has been played (HC games) then Edinburgh have played very well and had an excellent season.

Rubbish. Edinburgh's full-strength team lost 54-13 to Leinster A in the league.

Sorry I didn't mean to give the impression that everytime the full strength Edin team took to the field they outplayed the opposition, I meant that when the full team did play, they were significantly better than the team that played in the league when the first choice 15 were unavailable/rested. Much as you would expect with any team, but Edinburgh's 2nd choice team was by and large significantly weaker than the 1st team. Especially amongst the forwards.