Did Lewis lack killer instinct?

Cast you're minds back to Lewis v Mcall 2. As we know Mcall was a tough fighter who never tasted the canvas and this is a man who had been fighting since the mid 80's. Yet in that fight Mcall who was mentally unstable in that fight was happy for a PRIME Lewis to just tee off on him with his hands down.I understand Lewis didnt fully unleash, but I cant imagine letting a guy like Lewis have open shots.

Alot of people including myself started questioning Lewis' killer instinct after that fight, Lewis himself said on a espn interview that he didnt know what to do, so he just stuck to boxing and didnt want to put himself in harms way. It was a weird sight, but as a championship fighter he should of tried harder to finish of his oppenent, especially when a guy has his hands at his waist and refused to throw punches back.

Lewis v Mcall 2 wasnt exactly a normal fight though was it. Lewis finished all his others fine that he had the chance to

i wouldnt call it a killer instinct, but he didnt need it. he was a great finisher and knew how to do the most important thing - win.

What fights did he show real killer instinct. A well timed punch is not killer instinct.

Golota, Grant, Ruddock, Vitali, to name a few.

[quote="OasisBFC"]i wouldnt call it a killer instinct, but he didnt need it. he was a great finisher and knew how to do the most important thing - win.

Every fighter needs killer instinct mate but not everyone has it. Its natural. Leonard had it and he could out box anyone if he wanted to, Tyson had it but relied on it. For me Lewis lacked it a case proven when a man has his hands down and you still can't close the show it exposed him.

[quote="ShahenshahG"]Golota, Grant, Ruddock, Vitali, to name a few.

He did not show killer instinct in 2 of those fights.

Ruddock - Well timed punch to the temple.
Vitali - A cut finished the fight not Lewis, as I remember Vitali was still standing after the decision to stop the fight was made.
Grant - Got caught cold early.

Ask Galota, Ruddick,Grant,and Rahman if they thought that Lewis lacked the killer instinct.I think he could have been the first man to put Tua down and possibly out but he was winning comfortably as it was so he cruised to a points win.

razor ruddock

Did Lewis lack killer instinct?

In one word...."occasionally"! Let's move on shall we?

Just watched the Grant fight again and he showed killer instinct there. Really went after Grant while it lasted with some questionable punches on the break and hitting while holding. That finishing uppercut was brutal. Also how Grant made it up after the 3rd Knockdown in the 1st round I'll never know, massive right hand folded him in half when he was already on shaky legs but still got up to beat the count.

I think he could have knocked Holyfield out but maybe had too much respect for him. Yes I'd go with occaisionally but not enough to really impact on his career.

Golota fight was brutal. He destroyed a guy who had given Riddick Bowe fits in their two fights.

The Grant fight showed that he could finish but Grant had no buisness being in the same ring as Lewis.

Not really. There are as many examples of fights where he finished off someone pretty ruthlessly. The McCall fight was a freak incident. But even look at the Bruno fight for example. Once he had Bruno hurt he didnt let up.

rapidringsroad wrote:Ask Galota, Ruddick,Grant,and Rahman if they thought that Lewis lacked the killer instinct.I think he could have been the first man to put Tua down and possibly out but he was winning comfortably as it was so he cruised to a points win.

No way could he have knocked out or even floored Tua, his punches were having no effect on him whatsoever. Lewis was a very good puncher but Tua and McCall especially in they're prime would never go down.

monty junior wrote:

rapidringsroad wrote:Ask Galota, Ruddick,Grant,and Rahman if they thought that Lewis lacked the killer instinct.I think he could have been the first man to put Tua down and possibly out but he was winning comfortably as it was so he cruised to a points win.

No way could he have knocked out or even floored Tua, his punches were having no effect on him whatsoever. Lewis was a very good puncher but Tua and McCall especially in they're prime would never go down.

McCall's chin was forged in hell. I'm not sure Lewis could have put him down with a baseball bat.

It's funny with McCall because looking at him he doesn't have the obvious physical signs of an excellent chin, such as having a very short thick neck, square jaw and wide shoulders, ala Liston,Chuvalo,Tua etc..

Am i right in saying at 47 years old he has still never been on the floor?

Not that I can recall and pretty sure the Lewis meltdown is his only stoppage loss.

I think Lewis - McCall II has taken on a wee bit of mythical status actually. Sure, McCall took some almighty punches on the chin, but so did many other fighters that shared the ring with Lennox. He wasn't standing with his feet planted, motionless, sticking his chin out and inviting Lewis to take a run up and wallop him. He didn't 'defend' himself in the traditional sense of the word, but his motion was generally backwards and sideways and he certainly turned his head away from an awful lot of Lewis's punches. That is not to take anything away from McCall's durability as his chin certainly was sui generis and forged somewhere in Middle-Earth, but I feel there is a touch of revisionism surrounding that fight.

As for the OP, Lewis demonstrably showed his killer instinct on numerous occasions, as other posters have already pointed out. It is no good saying Grant didn't deserve to be in the same ring as Lewis. He was in the same ring, no fault of Lennox there, and was dispatched with brutallity. How much more 'killer' instinct are you looking for?

No shame in failing to deck McCall or stop him in the conventional sense at all, so I really can't see how that incident can be used to argue that Lewis lacked a killer instinct. Do we likewise say that Foreman lacked a killer instinct because his stoppage of Chuvalo was messy and because Chuvalo still had enough of his senses to protest the stoppage while still on his feet?

The only time I can really criticise Lewis for a distinct lack of killer instinct was round five in the first Holyfield fight, where he had Evander backed up against the ropes and eating jabs for virtually the whole three minutes, but for some odd reason didn't follow it up with a barrage of hooks which may well have been enough to force a stoppage, given that Holyfield was throwing nothing back - however, that round only came back to bite him on the backside thanks to the gross incompetence of Eugenia Williams, who somehow scored it 10-9 to Holyfield!

That was very much an exception to the rule, though. For the most part, when Lewis had a chance to close the show in style, he took it. The way he stopped Bruno was just about as close to the definition of killer instinct as you can get - Bruno made one mistake and was duly punished for it.

88Chris05 wrote:
thanks to the gross incompetence of Eugenia Williams, who somehow scored it 10-9 to Holyfield!

C'on now Chris, go easy on Eugenia. Lennox had his back to her for most of the round, perfectly reasonable to score that one for Evander.....

Not sure what all the fuss is about Lewis, David Price is clearly better than him.

rowley wrote:Not sure what all the fuss is about Lewis, David Price is clearly better than him.

In fairness Jeff, being born nearly two decades later does give Price a hefty head start. Evolution makes us bigger, faster, stronger, better, more handsome etc...

Not so much as a lack of killer instinct but definitely a safety first approach and who can blame him? We're talking about big guys who are able to knock people out with a single punch. Lewis was ahead in so many of his fights, why take the risks?

Not sure Golota....Grant and Ruddock would say he lacked killer instinct..

However I will say that in his biggest fights he took a more safety first approach.......nothing wrong with that!!!

Think it quite revealing that when he lost it was to basic journeymen who caught him in an absent minded moment...

He didn't lack killer instinct.....just was cautious..

The McCall 2 fight was very odd and Lewis would have been something of a cannibal to have hurt a man that was clearly screwed up. Lewis however, did the honours on Rahman, Golota, Ruddock, Tyson, Bruno to name but a few. I doubt any of those boxers would have questioned Lewis' killer instinct.

This article must surely win a prize for the most daft and pointless article of the week so far.

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:Cast you're minds back to Lewis v Mcall 2. As we know Mcall was a tough fighter who never tasted the canvas and this is a man who had been fighting since the mid 80's. Yet in that fight Mcall who was mentally unstable in that fight was happy for a PRIME Lewis to just tee off on him with his hands down.I understand Lewis didnt fully unleash, but I cant imagine letting a guy like Lewis have open shots.

Alot of people including myself started questioning Lewis' killer instinct after that fight, Lewis himself said on a espn interview that he didnt know what to do, so he just stuck to boxing and didnt want to put himself in harms way. It was a weird sight, but as a championship fighter he should of tried harder to finish of his oppenent, especially when a guy has his hands at his waist and refused to throw punches back.

Manny Steward always said Lewis played too much chess and was too cautious. Many times he had fighters on the ropes and threw a jab. For me he was scared as he didn't trust his chin.

azania wrote:For me he was scared as he didn't trust his chin.

I've always felt this is somewhat of a paradox in Lewis's career. Unless he had been floored in training or in the amateurs, which to my knowledge he hadn't, then certainly early in his career he had no reason to be excessively scared of his chin, although in the heavies, a touch of caution would always be wise. I can see your point after McCall, as that sort of devastating knockdown would naturally put some demons in your head, but this is where the paradox comes in for me. He took some almighty punches after the first McCall fight, in particular I remember a huge and perfectly delivered left hook from Holyfield in the 7th (I think?) round of their rematch that he took without so much as a blink so I am not sure why he was so reluctant to engage on occasions when I really don't think his chin was that vulnerable. Even against a finished version of Tyson, Manny Steward was screaming at him to end the fight but Lennox seemed intent on tenderising him some more.

Obviously the losses against McCall and Rahman are a stain on his legacy, but I fall in the camp of viewing them as just brutal, clean shots that would have floored the majority of heavyweights through history, rather than a catch all assessment of his whiskers. I have seen enough evidence to suggest that he could hold a shot and I think his inherent caution came from somewhere else, rather than a fear about his chin.

Would also say he got up from McCall and, I thought, pretty much beat the count. Given he was the champ defending his titles I think he should've been allowed to fight on as he wasn't in that bad nick.

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

azania wrote:For me he was scared as he didn't trust his chin.

I've always felt this is somewhat of a paradox in Lewis's career. Unless he had been floored in training or in the amateurs, which to my knowledge he hadn't, then certainly early in his career he had no reason to be excessively scared of his chin, although in the heavies, a touch of caution would always be wise. I can see your point after McCall, as that sort of devastating knockdown would naturally put some demons in your head, but this is where the paradox comes in for me. He took some almighty punches after the first McCall fight, in particular I remember a huge and perfectly delivered left hook from Holyfield in the 7th (I think?) round of their rematch that he took without so much as a blink so I am not sure why he was so reluctant to engage on occasions when I really don't think his chin was that vulnerable. Even against a finished version of Tyson, Manny Steward was screaming at him to end the fight but Lennox seemed intent on tenderising him some more.

Obviously the losses against McCall and Rahman are a stain on his legacy, but I fall in the camp of viewing them as just brutal, clean shots that would have floored the majority of heavyweights through history, rather than a catch all assessment of his whiskers. I have seen enough evidence to suggest that he could hold a shot and I think his inherent caution came from somewhere else, rather than a fear about his chin.

The problem is, elite HW who many put amongst the top 5 in history would not be flattened by the likes of McCall or Rahman in the first place. I remember him being shaken up by Bruno and Akinwande who I believe put him on the floor although it was ruled a slip.

azania wrote:The problem is, elite HW who many put amongst the top 5 in history would not be flattened by the likes of McCall or Rahman in the first place. I remember him being shaken up by Bruno and Akinwande who I believe put him on the floor although it was ruled a slip.

Read my post again, that isn't the point I was making. I acknowledged the fact that the losses reflect badly on his legacy, you won't find an argument against that here, I was adressing your assertion that he was scared of his own chin. Something I disagree with.

I remember the Akinwande fight, and you need to go home and watch the 3rd round again if you think that had anything to do with Lennox's chin. The knockdown/slip you're referring to was as a result of a clubbing overhand right that landed very high on Lennox's head, no-where near his whiskers and he bounced straight back up. Technically it probably should have been called a knockdown but in no way is it a reflection on Lewis's ability to hold a shot.

I disagree with r3. He was hurt. Also personally I dont rate his chin as much as others seem to.

It was a punch but I don't think it was anything serious....

Think the Briggs episode probably shows why lewis won't be winning any greatest heavyweight chin categories...

However he had a good enough chin......just too cautious at times..

Azania when you say a top ranked heavyweight shouldn't be put down by the likes of McCall,you should go back to one of the greatest heavyweights even,Joe Louis in his fight with Galento went down at least twice and Ali was put down well before he met Cooper. OK he did get up but so did Lewis. As has been said,a blow from someone weighing 250lbs is going to put anyone down.

[quote="ONETWOFOREVER"]

OasisBFC wrote:i wouldnt call it a killer instinct, but he didnt need it. he was a great finisher and knew how to do the most important thing - win.

Every fighter needs killer instinct mate but not everyone has it. Its natural. Leonard had it and he could out box anyone if he wanted to, Tyson had it but relied on it. For me Lewis lacked it a case proven when a man has his hands down and you still can't close the show it exposed him.

maybe he was too much of a gent and didnt go in for the kill because his opponent had his hands down and frankly could have been seriously hurt or worse.

if you NEED killer instinct to be a successful fighter, saying lewis didnt have it doesnt measure up. he is the definition of a successful fighter. and one with a great KO record at that.

You could also argue Holmes would have been stopped by Shavers had Garcia been officiating that one.

rapidringsroad wrote:Azania when you say a top ranked heavyweight shouldn't be put down by the likes of McCall,you should go back to one of the greatest heavyweights even,Joe Louis in his fight with Galento went down at least twice and Ali was put down well before he met Cooper. OK he did get up but so did Lewis. As has been said,a blow from someone weighing 250lbs is going to put anyone down.

Getting KO's once by a mediocre opponent can be excused. Having done twice by an even lesser opponent is poor. Ali got up and won. Louis got up and won. Lewis stayed down against Rahman and was on queer street against McCall.