Not Good News For Olympics

by hawkeye Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:44 pm

First topic message reminder :

With Nadal's withdrawal from the Olympics quite a few may be rubbing their hands together in glee at another draw opening up with golden opportunities being handed out yet again. But it isn't really such good news.

Does Federer want another * attached if he manages to fill an important gap in his achievements? Just when Olympic tennis has gained a little credibility by having a number one ranked player win gold does it need another Massu, Kafelnikov, Rossit or Mercir? (no disrespect) clutching a medal? When everyone knows a certain player will be resting at home (no doubt polishing their very own shiny gold Olympic medal) and will re-emerge (hopefully...) fresh for the US Open. Will it make the Olympics suddenly feel like very hard work? Will dodging the rain, fighting for a gap under the roof (when Andy isn't playing), playing 6 matches including one 5 setter... all for a measly 750 points and no trophy leave the winner feeling a little short changed? Will doing all this whilst everyone else is watching something more riveting like clay pigeon shooting or dressage leave the players feeling a little neglected?

Nadal withdrawing from the Olympics is not good news... But somehow I feel a little happier now.

by User 774433 Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:43 pm

reckoner wrote:Oh no IMBL not the dreaded OCD excuse, haven't seen that one wheeled out since the original 606 lol!

Lydian talked about it yesterday actually Cool

by reckoner Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:45 pm

Oh... must have missed it, still don't buy it. Where's the proof of said OCD? Seeing as the stock response to any claims of PED use is "where's the proof"?

by barrystar Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:52 pm

It Must Be Love wrote:Nadal does take too long in between points, I think the time limit is 25 sec or something and he breaks it. He has to change that, or he is breaking the time-keeping rules simple as that. I might be a Rafa fan but I'm not going to lie.
Nevertheless his motivations are not to create some sort of evil ploy (how long does he take to order his bottles!) but his OCD. Anyway it still takes time, longer than allowed, and hence I agree that it's not good.

I am sure that if he believed (and was advised) that it was more in his advantage to take less time between points he would take on his OCD and find a way to change his routine and habits accordingly.

If a player consistently breaks rules in a particular way and that helps give him an advantage (a breather and chance to impose his slower routine and disrupt that of his faster playing opponents) I prefer to draw the obvious conclusion in the absence of powerful evidence. I don't believe that OCD is anything more than a self-serving attempt at an excuse - whether the source is Nadal or his supporters.

by User 774433 Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:58 pm

barrystar wrote:I don't believe that OCD is anything more than a self-serving attempt at an excuse - whether the source is Nadal or his supporters.

Well that's your opinion thumbsup

On that note I do think it's worth noticing the repetitiveness of Nadal's nature. Not just that: the exact placements.

Every-time the bottles are in the same place, every-time his sprint to the baseline is the same.
But I suppose looking at it through your (or Reckoner's !) eyes it doesn't prove OCD necessarily- he could have just had a great ploy from the start and continued using it perfectly with ridiculous precision.
Also worth bearing in mind is the fact it is reported he has weird ticks outside the tennis court as well (in the locker rooms etc.) which don't really effect anyone but he still likes to carry out.

by reckoner Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:02 pm

Weird ticks, eh? Got any links?

"He could have just had a great ploy from the start and continued using it perfectly with ridiculous precision." << I do think that's the case and the "ridiculous precision" is Toni's training.

by time please Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:10 pm

I don't know (as I am not privy as IMBL is to his innermost soul) whether Nadal has OCD or not.

I don't care - it's totally and utterly irrelevant, or it d*mn well should be!

I understand about sportsmen having various superstitions - he is very far from alone in that - and keeping to certain routines. However that cannot excuse those routines taking up more time than is allowed between points or presenting oneself at the net before the match.

Rules are rules and once you allow one player to bend them you are operating with the dreaded thin end of the wedge.

by reckoner Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:12 pm

We've seen the effect too - other players are doing the same now.

by **laverfan** Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:13 pm

It Must Be Love wrote:I was pointing no human beings are perfect, ...

But they can be taught to follow rules, like hitting the ball within the lines otherwise it is a 'fault'. Wink

. Do you ever stop at a traffic light? chin

I keep this incident to illustrate what was once a gentle person's game. Roger Taylor offered and replayed a match point when Borg objected to a line call.

There is a huge difference between a 'rat race' and a 'sport'.

I wonder if anyone can recall tennis balls being presented on silver plates to servers during a very famous set of matches. Answer on a sheet of paper attached to a suitcase full of 100 Euro banknotes, if you please. Wink

It Must Be Love wrote:... you can criticise Nadal, I can criticise Federer etc. At the end of the day they are humans, not machines.

So sides have been chosen... fantastic. thumbsup

This was a discussion related to the relative importance of Olympics Tennis. Run

by User 774433 Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:17 pm

time please wrote:
I don't care - it's totally and utterly irrelevant, or it d*mn well should be!

I fully agree with you. In-fact if you read my earlier post I even specifically said that the rules are rules irrelevant of whether Nadal has OCD or not thumbsup

time please wrote:I don't know (as I am not privy as IMBL is to his innermost soul) whether Nadal has OCD or not.

Is that sarcasm?
I think, as does Lydian, that Nadal might have mild Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder. Both Barrystar and Reckoner have said that they do not agree, and I said I respect their opinions.
I do not see why you have to get angry at me.

by time please Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:21 pm

Yes IMBL it was sarcasm Very Happy

Not at all angry with you

by reckoner Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:23 pm

laverfan wrote:
It Must Be Love wrote:I was pointing no human beings are perfect, ...

But they can be taught to follow rules, like hitting the ball within the lines otherwise it is a 'fault'. . Do you ever stop at a traffic light?

I keep this incident to illustrate what was once a gentle person's game. Roger Taylor offered and replayed a match point when Borg objected to a line call.

There is a huge difference between a 'rat race' and a 'sport'.

I wonder if anyone can recall tennis balls being presented on silver plates to servers during a very famous set of matches. Answer on a sheet of paper attached to a suitcase full of 100 Euro banknotes, if you please.

It Must Be Love wrote:... you can criticise Nadal, I can criticise Federer etc. At the end of the day they are humans, not machines.

So sides have been chosen... fantastic.

This was a discussion related to the relative importance of Olympics Tennis.

Where'd my post go.. weird.

I want to know where / when the players were presented with balls on silver platters - sounds awfully grand.

Anyway laverfan didn't you notice the OP contained gems like "Does Federer want another * attached if he manages to fill an important gap in his achievements?"

Personally I'm glad the discussion has evolved...

by User 774433 Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:23 pm

Kool

Edit: That was a reply to Time-Please not Reckoner lol

by reckoner Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:24 pm

Come on IMBL, spill the beans, let's see links to these other weird tics!

And yeah for the record I'm not angry with you either! Very Happy

by User 774433 Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:25 pm

reckoner wrote:

Where'd my post go.. weird.

I want to know where / when the players were presented with balls on silver platters - sounds awfully grand.

Anyway laverfan didn't you notice the OP contained gems like "Does Federer want another * attached if he manages to fill an important gap in his achievements?"

Personally I'm glad the discussion has evolved...

Well at-least if this place takes more baby steps to becoming fairer and all the fannie gurls don't come back than I suppose it's good for you.

by User 774433 Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:26 pm

reckoner wrote:Come on IMBL, spill the beans, let's see links to these other weird tics!

And yeah for the record I'm not angry with you either!

Nah it's ok Hug

You do try to see the best in people anyway don't you.

by reckoner Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:27 pm

Oh no links then??

by User 774433 Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:28 pm

For what?
Nadal's ticks Headscratch

The bottles thing for a start.

Edit: http://sports.yahoo.com/top/news?slug=ycn-10860295

He always takes a cold shower before he plays a match. He lines up two water bottles in front of his chair with the brand name facing exactly out. He wears his socks so that the logos on the socks are facing in an exact position.

by reckoner Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:28 pm

It Must Be Love wrote:
reckoner wrote:Come on IMBL, spill the beans, let's see links to these other weird tics!

And yeah for the record I'm not angry with you either!
Nah it's ok You do try to see the best in people anyway don't you.

Have you been stalking me or something!

by Guest Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:29 pm

I think this article does fully explain the issues Nadal has.

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/performance-anxiety-in-sports.html

The problem with an OCD as a diagnosis is that it almost 'excuses' people from the simplist of things, eg the ability to serve within the 20 second period. Like the condition prevents him from doing such a thing.

If there is an underlying problem with Nadal and his behaviour on court is not related to a form of 'anxiety' and could be something deeper, then why hasn't Nadal's family referred him to someone who may specialise in that area? If Nadal was starting to get penalised for the time issues between points then maybe this could see the ATP/ITF actually help and address these issues.

Maybe if Nadal showed an improvement towards addressing that issue, taking some 'responsibility' might endear him to some of his critics. I am pretty sure he must be aware of his timing between points not being within the rules. It also requires stronger and more competent umpires to enforce the rule.

by **laverfan** Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:29 pm

If a person has OCD/OCSD, it can be used as a 'positive' reinforcement to inculcate the habit of following a set of rules in specific situations. I do this every day in work with children who have such/similar inclinations.

A rule like, if the vehicle is moving and you are inside the vehicle then you must wear a seat belt.

There is one child in a group, who can tap into her internal body clock and will mark time very accurately. My jaw just dropped when I discovered it first.

by time please Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:29 pm

laverfan wrote:
I wonder if anyone can recall tennis balls being presented on silver plates to servers during a very famous set of matches. Answer on a sheet of paper attached to a suitcase full of 100 Euro banknotes, if you please.

Nothing as valuable as 100 euro banknotes in this house LF - sad but true Laugh

I don't know the answer though I have googled it, but only managed to unearth Links tennis charms!! I am going to guess it is one of three majors - Wimbledon, The French or the US (how's that for hedging my bets?) or maybe Newport?

Would love it if you would put me out of my misery Very Happy

by reckoner Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:29 pm

It Must Be Love wrote:For what?
Nadal's ticks

The bottles thing for a start.

Oh dear, right I'd better remind you.

You said it had been reported that Nadal had other weird tics in the locker room...

by User 774433 Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:31 pm

reckoner wrote:
It Must Be Love wrote:For what?
Nadal's ticks

The bottles thing for a start.

Oh dear, right I'd better remind you.

You said it had been reported that Nadal had other weird tics in the locker room...

I've edited the quoted comment to contain a article and have shown some extracts in italics thumbsup

by reckoner Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:32 pm

It Must Be Love wrote:
reckoner wrote:
It Must Be Love wrote:For what?
Nadal's ticks

The bottles thing for a start.

Oh dear, right I'd better remind you.

You said it had been reported that Nadal had other weird tics in the locker room...
I've edited the quoted comment to contain a article and have shown some extracts in italics

OK thanks. So have you been stalking me then?

by User 774433 Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:33 pm

reckoner wrote:
It Must Be Love wrote:
reckoner wrote:
It Must Be Love wrote:For what?
Nadal's ticks

The bottles thing for a start.

Oh dear, right I'd better remind you.

You said it had been reported that Nadal had other weird tics in the locker room...
I've edited the quoted comment to contain a article and have shown some extracts in italics

OK thanks. So have you been stalking me then?

No lol

Just happened to come across you when I didn't expect to Shocked

by reckoner Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:35 pm

It Must Be Love wrote:
reckoner wrote:
It Must Be Love wrote:
reckoner wrote:
It Must Be Love wrote:For what?
Nadal's ticks

The bottles thing for a start.

Oh dear, right I'd better remind you.

You said it had been reported that Nadal had other weird tics in the locker room...
I've edited the quoted comment to contain a article and have shown some extracts in italics

OK thanks. So have you been stalking me then?
No lol

Just happened to come across you when I didn't expect to

Oh really. And you thought you'd quote me to what end?

by User 774433 Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:36 pm

reckoner wrote:
It Must Be Love wrote:
reckoner wrote:
It Must Be Love wrote:
reckoner wrote:
It Must Be Love wrote:For what?
Nadal's ticks

The bottles thing for a start.

Oh dear, right I'd better remind you.

You said it had been reported that Nadal had other weird tics in the locker room...
I've edited the quoted comment to contain a article and have shown some extracts in italics

OK thanks. So have you been stalking me then?
No lol

Just happened to come across you when I didn't expect to

Oh really. And you thought you'd quote me to what end?

I've been a bad boy Sad

Sorry Reckoner Sorry

by reckoner Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:39 pm

It Must Be Love wrote:
reckoner wrote:
It Must Be Love wrote:
reckoner wrote:
It Must Be Love wrote:
reckoner wrote:
It Must Be Love wrote:For what?
Nadal's ticks

The bottles thing for a start.

Oh dear, right I'd better remind you.

You said it had been reported that Nadal had other weird tics in the locker room...
I've edited the quoted comment to contain a article and have shown some extracts in italics

OK thanks. So have you been stalking me then?
No lol

Just happened to come across you when I didn't expect to

Oh really. And you thought you'd quote me to what end?
I've been a bad boy
Sorry Reckoner

Well, I did find that a bit sinister I must admit.

Won't hold it against you though, don't worry.

by **laverfan** Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:39 pm

time please wrote:
laverfan wrote:
I wonder if anyone can recall tennis balls being presented on silver plates to servers during a very famous set of matches. Answer on a sheet of paper attached to a suitcase full of 100 Euro banknotes, if you please.

Nothing as valuable as 100 euro banknotes in this house LF - sad but true

I don't know the answer though I have googled it, but only managed to unearth Links tennis charms!! I am going to guess it is one of three majors - Wimbledon, The French or the US (how's that for hedging my bets?) or maybe Newport?

Would love it if you would put me out of my misery

It is in a DC tie or a friendly match between Great Britain and Russia (or USSR) if you will. IIRC, the venue was Moscow. I will find details. This is all I can recall right now. SFP (or older posters) might also know.

by User 774433 Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:41 pm

lol I was kidding.
Thanks thumbsup

by **laverfan** Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:41 pm

reckoner wrote:
It Must Be Love wrote:
I've been a bad boy
Sorry Reckoner
Well, I did find that a bit sinister I must admit.

Won't hold it against you though, don't worry.

Glad to see the quoting contest resolved amicably. Cool

by reckoner Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:44 pm

It Must Be Love wrote:lol I was kidding.
Thanks

Well I wasn't kidding - I really do try to see the best in people, until they prove otherwise.

I'm an open book and stand by what I say. I'm not sure those who sneak around other forums can say the same.

by reckoner Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:45 pm

laverfan wrote:
reckoner wrote:
It Must Be Love wrote:
I've been a bad boy
Sorry Reckoner
Well, I did find that a bit sinister I must admit.

Won't hold it against you though, don't worry.

Glad to see the quoting contest resolved amicably.

Contest implies more than one participant, laverfan.

by User 774433 Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:57 pm

reckoner wrote:
laverfan wrote:
reckoner wrote:
It Must Be Love wrote:
I've been a bad boy
Sorry Reckoner
Well, I did find that a bit sinister I must admit.

Won't hold it against you though, don't worry.

Glad to see the quoting contest resolved amicably.

Contest implies more than one participant, laverfan.

To be fair you shouldn't be talking about Haddie Nuff on other forums

Anyway we can draw a line now, I have apologised for my part Hug

by reckoner Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:02 pm

I didn't directly talk about anyone - it was just word play.

Let us indeed draw a line...

by User 774433 Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:03 pm

I thought you were talking about me btw.
Anyway this is way off topic Whistle

by User 774433 Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:05 pm

Back on topic.. where were we? OCD I believe Very Happy

Reckoner I know you believe that it's not OCD but a pretext by Nadal, nevertheless he has done it since he was very young.

Do you think it has been planned by Toni from the start? I think it's a tick, that makes sense to me, but I am probably biased Wink

by reckoner Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:14 pm

Well, it isn't normal behaviour and yeah I do think it's a bit of strategy from Toni. As you say Nadal has been doing it since a very young age - but NOT when he was 14.

No sign of this so called OCD when he was playing Gasquet at that age - there's a clip on youtube if you care to take a look. How do you explain that? If it's OCD and involuntary, he should have been doing the same thing, right?

I want to make it clear that there was no attack intended from me towards Haddie-nuff (irritating as I find her) - I was making a play on words on her nickname, that's all!

by super_realist Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:18 pm

The great news is that Nadal won't be biting a medal. Probably the closest he would have got to his rubbish gold debloom mock test he does tediously every time he wins.

Plonker.

by User 774433 Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:23 pm

reckoner wrote:Well, it isn't normal behaviour and yeah I do think it's a bit of strategy from Toni. As you say Nadal has been doing it since a very young age - but NOT when he was 14.

No sign of this so called OCD when he was playing Gasquet at that age - there's a clip on youtube if you care to take a look. How do you explain that? If it's OCD and involuntary, he should have been doing the same thing, right?

Interesting I will take a look.
Also I have seen a video of Nadal at 12 and he did not have it either.
Of course you can develop habits over time, that's natural, but I shall take a further look.

by reckoner Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:25 pm

It Must Be Love wrote:
reckoner wrote:Well, it isn't normal behaviour and yeah I do think it's a bit of strategy from Toni. As you say Nadal has been doing it since a very young age - but NOT when he was 14.

No sign of this so called OCD when he was playing Gasquet at that age - there's a clip on youtube if you care to take a look. How do you explain that? If it's OCD and involuntary, he should have been doing the same thing, right?
Interesting I will take a look.
Also I have seen a video of Nadal at 12 and he did not have it either.
Of course you can develop habits over time, that's natural, but I shall take a further look.

Well there you go - how does one happen to pick up a whole set of "OCD" tics that just happen to give competitive advantage? My best bet would be the coach.

by User 774433 Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:25 pm

super_realist wrote:The great news is that Nadal won't be biting a medal. Probably the closest he would have got to his rubbish gold debloom mock test he does tediously every time he wins.

Plonker.

Meh. The other day you started being disrespectful to Federer fans- saying they were 'glory hunters.'
At-least Nadal doesn't call Federer fans glory hunters, or it hasn't been reported yet anyway.

by User 774433 Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:27 pm

reckoner wrote:
It Must Be Love wrote:
reckoner wrote:Well, it isn't normal behaviour and yeah I do think it's a bit of strategy from Toni. As you say Nadal has been doing it since a very young age - but NOT when he was 14.

No sign of this so called OCD when he was playing Gasquet at that age - there's a clip on youtube if you care to take a look. How do you explain that? If it's OCD and involuntary, he should have been doing the same thing, right?
Interesting I will take a look.
Also I have seen a video of Nadal at 12 and he did not have it either.
Of course you can develop habits over time, that's natural, but I shall take a further look.

Well there you go - how does one happen to pick up a whole set of "OCD" tics that just happen to give competitive advantage? My best bet would be the coach.

He was coached by Toni before the age of 14 though...

by barrystar Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:28 pm

The first point is I don't know whether "OCD" is the explanation for him taking a lot of time between points - all this stuff about socks and bottles relates to between games. Hitching his pants up doesn't take 25 seconds but 'getting ready' to receive a point or to serve seems to.

The second point is that regardless of how it started or crept in, if it was harmful to his game (i.e. if umpires started calling him on time wasting) I bet he'd address it and find quicker routines. In fact, taking time between points and attempting to impose his slow routine on everyone else suits him. He must know that people have noticed this and it's evident he prefers to keep it that way. All pro's have a pre-point routine, just some are longer than others.

by reckoner Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:30 pm

It Must Be Love wrote:
reckoner wrote:
It Must Be Love wrote:
reckoner wrote:Well, it isn't normal behaviour and yeah I do think it's a bit of strategy from Toni. As you say Nadal has been doing it since a very young age - but NOT when he was 14.

No sign of this so called OCD when he was playing Gasquet at that age - there's a clip on youtube if you care to take a look. How do you explain that? If it's OCD and involuntary, he should have been doing the same thing, right?
Interesting I will take a look.
Also I have seen a video of Nadal at 12 and he did not have it either.
Of course you can develop habits over time, that's natural, but I shall take a further look.

Well there you go - how does one happen to pick up a whole set of "OCD" tics that just happen to give competitive advantage? My best bet would be the coach.
He was coached by Toni before the age of 14 though...

And possibly that's when it was felt it would benefit his game to take a bit more time between points? I'm just saying it clearly isn't as involuntary as it would be if it was really OCD.

by User 774433 Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:32 pm

reckoner wrote:
It Must Be Love wrote:
reckoner wrote:
It Must Be Love wrote:
reckoner wrote:Well, it isn't normal behaviour and yeah I do think it's a bit of strategy from Toni. As you say Nadal has been doing it since a very young age - but NOT when he was 14.

No sign of this so called OCD when he was playing Gasquet at that age - there's a clip on youtube if you care to take a look. How do you explain that? If it's OCD and involuntary, he should have been doing the same thing, right?
Interesting I will take a look.
Also I have seen a video of Nadal at 12 and he did not have it either.
Of course you can develop habits over time, that's natural, but I shall take a further look.

Well there you go - how does one happen to pick up a whole set of "OCD" tics that just happen to give competitive advantage? My best bet would be the coach.
He was coached by Toni before the age of 14 though...

And possibly that's when it was felt it would benefit his game to take a bit more time between points? I'm just saying it clearly isn't as involuntary as it would be if it was really OCD.

No you can develop habits you see. It's not that simple.

by hawkeye Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:35 pm

I could have been a great tennis player. I have a great serve, forehand, backhand and volley. I also possess a winning mentality.... But I'm not sure I'm willing to subject my character to the scrutiny of 606v2. Measured against the great Roger Tayler (?) it would be sure to fall short...

by reckoner Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:02 pm

hawkeye wrote:I could have been a great tennis player. I have a great serve, forehand, backhand and volley. I also possess a winning mentality.... But I'm not sure I'm willing to subject my character to the scrutiny of 606v2. Measured against the great Roger Tayler (?) it would be sure to fall short...

You've stunned us all into silence by claiming you can play tennis hawkeye...

by reckoner Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:06 pm

It Must Be Love wrote:
No you can develop habits you see. It's not that simple.

Hmmm how convenient that these habits just happen to break the time rules and confer an advantage. I hope you can appreciate why I'm skeptical.

by super_realist Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:07 pm

It Must Be Love wrote:
super_realist wrote:The great news is that Nadal won't be biting a medal. Probably the closest he would have got to his rubbish gold debloom mock test he does tediously every time he wins.

Plonker.
Meh. The other day you started being disrespectful to Federer fans- saying they were 'glory hunters.'
At-least Nadal doesn't call Federer fans glory hunters, or it hasn't been reported yet anyway.

No, I meant that there is a section of Federer fans who are clearly glory hunters, namely all those sad housewives with RF hats and tennis ball earings who watch one tournament a year.

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