Not Good News For Olympics

First topic message reminder :

With Nadal's withdrawal from the Olympics quite a few may be rubbing their hands together in glee at another draw opening up with golden opportunities being handed out yet again. But it isn't really such good news.

Does Federer want another * attached if he manages to fill an important gap in his achievements? Just when Olympic tennis has gained a little credibility by having a number one ranked player win gold does it need another Massu, Kafelnikov, Rossit or Mercir? (no disrespect) clutching a medal? When everyone knows a certain player will be resting at home (no doubt polishing their very own shiny gold Olympic medal) and will re-emerge (hopefully...) fresh for the US Open. Will it make the Olympics suddenly feel like very hard work? Will dodging the rain, fighting for a gap under the roof (when Andy isn't playing), playing 6 matches including one 5 setter... all for a measly 750 points and no trophy leave the winner feeling a little short changed? Will doing all this whilst everyone else is watching something more riveting like clay pigeon shooting or dressage leave the players feeling a little neglected?

Nadal withdrawing from the Olympics is not good news... But somehow I feel a little happier now.

I've never bought into the idea that OCD is the reason. In my opinion, he is drilled to extremes, and this one was installed to counter muscle fatigue given his style.

It's so ingrained he doesn't need to think about taking the required break, he does it automatically, guaranteed by his highly programmed behaviour. But I strongly believe it was designed for purpose.

That's how I see it too - more plausible than OCD developed in the three years between 14 and 17 with highly unusual symptoms.

Whoooah....I travel off to Germany today and this thread goes into hyperspace! Good to see an active discussion/debate on here

I agree with alot of what is said on both sides of the fence as it were. Nadal is clearly a money-making machine on one level (due to success), and you always get the PR men jostling for position to support such people. One guy I never liked who is in his camp is Carlos Costa...always thought he was abit slimy as a player and now I believe he's his agent...hmmm.

I tend to err on the side of benefit of doubt with Toni is concerned. I dont see him as a "poor" father...but I can see how some might. I suspect the Nadal clan is so tight that the whole unit act as family. I also suspect that Toni is very competitive and wants to show his brother Miguel Angel that he could succeed in sports too. Then there is the sheer addictiveness of seeing his charge win around the world and wanting to see his project through. Yes thats slightly selfish but arent many people when it comes to their career, not spending the right amount of time at home...says me slightly 'guiltily' as I sit here in Germany!

So OCD! This was the central point Tenez and I used to argue like cat and dog over. He said it was all part of a grand scheme (and I know others subscribe to that, e.g. BB!) that was supposed to have started after the fabled Miami 2005 loss to Federer due to "fatigue". I never agreed with this as it didnt stand up to scrutiny when you examined matches across his career before 2005. Indeed Nadal was taking the same amount of average time a year earlier when he was 17 at Miami 2004 when he beat Federer...and also even at Wimbledon 2003 when he played Schriphan as a rookie 16 year old. If I recall he played on average about 28secs between points even then.

I simply cant believe on grass as a 16 year old rookie he was employing a grand tactic devised by Toni. It was too soon to even need to do this, he was too raw and wet behind the ears to be that calculating. IMO. Besides...he was picking his shorts and all the other stuff even at that age!
Hence I think he has long standing habits.
The other issue for me was when you looked at matches he won quickly or slowly - even up to recently. The average time between points taken was the same...implying it wasnt a tactic or else he would use alot more time when he needed it. Inbetween short ralleys on-avergae analysis showed he takes the same amount of time as a 20 shot ralley. This for me exposed the "takes more time to get more oxygen to feed his muscles" type thing. There are threads on here that have all the data but lord knows where they are.

So yes I do believe he has some form of OCD, and I dont say that out of blind fandom. Just that the data I saw didnt support a conscious change of habit from 2005 onwards (because he lost to Federer in Miami 2005 due to fatigue supposedly). If someone can show me data to confound that then I'll happily be prepared to change my mind. Yes he probably also likes to slow the game down...a bad habit he got himself into right from the start. He should have been picked up on it from 2003 but he never was...and the habit become so engrained he cant change it now. He must be the most habit driven player I've ever seen on tour, even more so than Goran. BTW - I have never condoned these habits...nor do I agree with the Team putting out almost weekly statements about him which I agree is too often.

Anyway...I can feel the counter points coming back already on these contentious statements!!! lol

OCD? Huh! Putting off your opponent? Huh! Superstition? Huh!

Tennis can be a very difficult game because of the distractions caused by different conditions, the crowd and most of all an unpredictable opponent. It is important to stay in the moment and concentrate on each point and keep in control of your own actions. What better way to do this than stick to a strict routine, do the same things before a match, between points, at change of ends etc to block out the distractions. Maybe a bit like meditation? Then you can put all mental and physical energy into the game itself. Nadal has talked about the importance of concentration and intense focus.

Any player who thinks that Nadal's routine distracts them would do well to follow Nadal's example and focus on themselves rather than waste mental energy watching what he's doing or plotting do distract him by kicking over his water bottles... That's also why I doubt Courier's bench sitting tactic (https://www.606v2.com/t32514-nobody-knows-how-to-beat-nadal) would have any effect. If Nadal was concentrating I doubt he would notice.

Some very interesting reading on this thread. A few thoughts:

1. On dichotomy between on-court and off-court behavior:

I do not find this all that shocking. I think it is quite natural for people to want to win, as well as to want to be popular and look good. This fairly naturally pushes one to being nicer off the court than on the court. It is also one of the reasons why I tend to view on-court behavior as a better indicator of a player's true personality.

It is on-court where there often is a trade-off between on one hand being nice and playing fair and on the other hand being successful.

The same trade-off is not present in post match interviews for example, quite the opposite one may say - so it is harder to tell if a player is genuine or just a good actor.

2. On Rafa's extracurricular activities as windows to his world

Mostly thinking of the ads that were discussed here. Being able to sell products is one of the most lucrative parts of being a successful player. Different players appeal to different segments of the market and various ad campaigns will try to exploit that. While I may see why TP and some others may not be too keen on Rafa's ads, I do not hold these types of things against players and tend not to read too much into them.

3. On Rafa's camp's excessive media exposure

This may appear somewhat cynical to some but I am willing to assume that most of the top players (or their PR teams) try to "manipulate" messages to some extent. It may well be that the reason why we hear more from Rafa is not because his camp is more manipulative but simply because it is less disciplined so messages are less consistent, thus attracting more attention. Once again, I do not hold it too much against him.

4. On Rafa's on-court behavior.

I tend to agree with those who think it leaves a fair bit to be desired. Whether his time wasting is artificially created or just comes natural to him (and I believe it is the latter) I find it extremely hard to believe that he just cannot change it; to me it is pretty clear he has no desire or intention either. Similarly, I am inclined to believe his MTOs are more than just that - there are just too many and too well placed for that. His behavior when he is losing can also be suspect - let's face it, how many players bump into their opponents on changeovers or complain about them jumping around while waiting to return the serve?

None of this is a "terminal" problem, but I do think these are black marks on his behavior.

PS: TP, I am glad that you are posting again. It was lovely to see you steer this thread in a direction which was simultaneously controversial, civil, and meaningful.

Nice post summerblues

I would concur with some of your round-up points, not least that Nadal could change his behaviour if he truly wanted to.
However, a) I think he's too scared too disturb a 8-10 year (maybe longer) engrained routine
b) perhaps feel it would give opponents an edge through him 'capitulating' on points he's often been pulled up on.

I agree the shoulder thing was not the best display from him re: Rosol, but he's not a serial offender in this way. I suspect the situation and pressure of the match simply got to him. As I've said elsewhere I also wondered what his off-court situation was going into that match as he was clearly off-form all match (and the round before). Contrary to popular belief Rosol didnt play amazingly well all match, just the 5th set really. Nadal was surprisingly poor from the outset. This was not the player of the past 4-5 years. However, none of that excuses his moment of somewhat madness but I think a little too much has perhaps been made of it. It was out of character IMO - yes he fiercely plays to win, that's one of his strengths, but never usually crosses the line of distance between players. Infact I cant remember him doing this before.

I'm not going to discuss the MTOs on this post. I will add that IMO there are worse offenders. But what all these things do is create a composite picture of a player who clearly has a stern will to win on court but more than that an overt need to control everything around him. This in itself is actually a classic feature of OCD and anxiety. When that control over his game starts to slip then he gets a little fried mentally...the fortress suddenly becomes a melting igloo. It doesnt happen often. We've seen these types of moments from other players in the past and we'll see them again - no-one should be held as a paragon of virtue in a fiercely combative sport where its hard to understand from the relative comfort of our armchairs the adrenalin and pressure that flows through the top guys veins, especially when compounded by the on-court and off-court media spotlight they're under 365 days a year. Additionally for me Nadal has seemed more mentally brittle since he lost the chance to go 4 in a row at AO'11...he's been much more negative as a whole since then, little things seem to niggle him more and he's become more vocal about them. Maybe its Djokovic, maybe its not wanting to be controlled by Toni anymore (a guy with OCD tendencies must hate that), maybe its the off-court family situation, maybe he's growing tired of the grind...who knows but he doesnt seem all that happy in the game to me for some time as a whole (French Open wins aside).

Speaking of media, whatever else he does Nadal certainly creates a lot of column inches in media, forums and broadcasting. The game as a whole will no doubt miss him when he's gone - his influence on children playing the sport alone has been a boon for the sport. But who knows when that retirement may come with him. Its impossible to tell if you listened to and relied on his PR team! (which not many of us do of course...like all PR teams they're there to put spin on their paymasters situation and activities)

Finally, I'd like to think its been a pretty civil and meaningful debate from all throughout - and I'd like to echo your point about the always eloquent TP posting again - nothing like a 'good old' Nadal topic to get the creative thoughts going, lol

Hi Lydian and Summerblues - thank you for all your kind words, and I return the compliment to you both 100%. Had forgotten, for a bit, just how therapeutic and fun chewing the cud about tennis, and all things related, with you guys can be. Have been drowning a little in family crisis (ongoing but much more manageable and stable at present) but have blissful week to self at present to just chill!

I think you both have very succintly summed up the thread - impressed, no salient points missed.

Two things I would just like to clarify a little: I don't hold the bumping Rosol's shoulder against Nadal at all. Okay, so it wasn't his finest hour but he is one helluva competitive sportsman and he was rattled. It was a heat of the moment thing and when adrenaline is flowing sometimes a sportsman reacts hotly. I highlighted it simply to show that we shouldn't always just accept a sportsman self evaluation, in this case of always behaving 'humbly' or in a gentlemanly fashion. As I say, I don't necessarily demand it from a top athlete, it is Team Nadal who has offered this image up and we should just then examine it with a critical eye. What is more is the implicit insinuation that he is superior in this department when quite clearly he is very much the same as the next guy, he just says some pretty things post match!

The selling of Rafa as the ultimate warrior is another 'myth' that bears exploring: I hate to automatically use Federer in this argument, but it would be too obvious to pick a battler like Hewitt. Federer plays a game that is not as gladitorial as some, but he is very much a warrior, all the way down to his elegant monogrammed tennis shoes, and he hasn't walked away even when the going got very tough and he took some nasty beatings. While Rafa undoubtedly has courage, his 'heart' must be called into question a little after this latest episode where the team can't even decide which injury he has, or whether what is ailing him is something else altogether.

I don't object to Rafa's ads either - I think it is very sensible for sportsmen, who never know when their career may be cut short, to take all the opportunities to maximise their earnings. I was really pointing out here the contradiction in marketing of Rafa as virile man against the often conflicting marketing of him as obedient and childish nephew with Toni continually harping on about the manners he insists on, rather like a mother parading her parenting skills at toddler group.

(It is strange that this compliant man has such difficulty adhering to his sports simple rules!)

I was just really taking a look at the 'brand Rafa' as continually sold to us and the contrary signals that point elsewhere. Of course everyone is a complex mix but we are being sold a character by his team in a way that no other player is sold to us.

Sorry, I've gone on again - you both encouraged me by flattering me as 'eloquent' (likes the sound of my own voice as my mother would say!)

Sorry but I don't believe people suddenly develop "OCD" at age 14 and exhibit none of the usual symptoms, just those that are to their advantage on the tennis court!

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/all-things-ocd/201011/ocd-101-demystifying-complex-problem

For the 'non' believers.

legendkillarV2 wrote:http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/all-things-ocd/201011/ocd-101-demystifying-complex-problem

For the 'non' believers.

I missed the part where non standard symptoms manifest after the age of 14.

reckoner wrote:

legendkillarV2 wrote:http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/all-things-ocd/201011/ocd-101-demystifying-complex-problem

For the 'non' believers.

I missed the part where non standard symptoms manifest after the age of 14.

Though I missed the bit where it said symptoms develop before adulthood.

legendkillarV2 wrote:http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/all-things-ocd/201011/ocd-101-demystifying-complex-problem

For the 'non' believers.

Hey legend - I freely admit to not buying the OCD excuse but have to admit that the article above does actually back up a lot of Lydian's arguments that the time wasting is down to a compulsive personality rather than sheer bl****dymindedness.

However, I don't think Nadal's issues should become his opponent's problems. After all, in a few weeks time we are going to witness some of the most inspiring athletes - the world's Para Olympians who have managed to overcome, in many cases, profound injuries or illness and yet are competing within their sport's strict rules.

No one should ever be bigger than the sport, and while it may be easier to overlook one player tweaking or ignoring the strict letter of the sporting law, it will soon become a huge problem to the sport if it becomes in vogue to do so.

Laverfan made a really interesting point about teaching children with compulsive disorders to follow a different routine to avoid this problem.

Are we saying that Rafa is not an 'able bodied' competitor here and finds it difficult to compete in the able bodied tour? That is the natural conclusion to making OCD an excuse.

legendkillarV2 wrote:

reckoner wrote:

legendkillarV2 wrote:http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/all-things-ocd/201011/ocd-101-demystifying-complex-problem

For the 'non' believers.

I missed the part where non standard symptoms manifest after the age of 14.

Though I missed the bit where it said symptoms develop before adulthood.

Actually early onset happens to be the most common scenario.

time please wrote:

legendkillarV2 wrote:http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/all-things-ocd/201011/ocd-101-demystifying-complex-problem

For the 'non' believers.

Hey legend - I freely admit to not buying the OCD excuse but have to admit that the article above does actually back up a lot of Lydian's arguments that the time wasting is down to a compulsive personality rather than sheer bl****dymindedness.

However, I don't think Nadal's issues should become his opponent's problems. After all, in a few weeks time we are going to witness some of the most inspiring athletes - the world's Para Olympians who have managed to overcome, in many cases, profound injuries or illness and yet are competing within their sport's strict rules.

No one should ever be bigger than the sport, and while it may be easier to overlook one player tweaking or ignoring the strict letter of the sporting law, it will soon become a huge problem to the sport if it becomes in vogue to do so.

Laverfan made a really interesting point about teaching children with compulsive disorders to follow a different routine to avoid this problem.

Are we saying that Rafa is not an 'able bodied' competitor here and finds it difficult to compete in the able bodied tour? That is the natural conclusion to making OCD an excuse.

Thanks TP hope you are well

I agree his problems shouldn't manifest itself on court and affect others. I did make a point that there are many things that can be done to ensure this doesn't continue to happen.

Nadal himself should seek help if it is starting to manifest on and off the court. The CBT as stated by the doctor who wrote the article.

Umpires enforcing the rule might force Nadal's hand and even have him look into treatment with the help of the ITF/ATP.

OCD is a rather tricky condition. My Mum was diagnosed at the age of 50 and her diagnosis was on the back of anxiety issues she has had all her life. It can be frustrating. I remember she stayed with me once when I went on holiday with Mrs LK. When I got back she had a tree surgeon up to cut my fern trees in half. When I asked her why, she said she felt 'enclosed' as much as I could've throttled her, a cup of tea later I managed to get over the event. Was difficult not swear!!

reckoner wrote:

legendkillarV2 wrote:

reckoner wrote:

legendkillarV2 wrote:http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/all-things-ocd/201011/ocd-101-demystifying-complex-problem

For the 'non' believers.

I missed the part where non standard symptoms manifest after the age of 14.

Though I missed the bit where it said symptoms develop before adulthood.

Actually early onset happens to be the most common scenario.

But not the only scenario

So let's clarify. There's footage of Nadal playing without any of these "symptoms" at age 14.

When he gets on to the tour at what, 17? He has the whole set of butt-picking, lining up water bottles etc.

I'm to believe in 3 years he developed a fully bloomed disorder without the most common symptoms of the disorder (hand washing etc) that just happen to break time rules and offer him an advantage in a sport he plays professionally.

It's a good thing you guys aren't medics!

But you know for a fact that he had no anxiety issues when he was child through to adulthood despite him saying numerous times he is nervous when playing matches.

This forum needs more 'insiders' close to the tennis stars.

legendkillarV2 wrote:But you know for a fact that he had no anxiety issues when he was child through to adulthood despite him saying numerous times he is nervous when playing matches.

This forum needs more 'insiders' close to the tennis stars.

Again, putting words in people's mouths.

Find me one quote where I said that please?

Anyway who on earth isn't nervous before a big match? Do all players have OCD then?

You lot will happily dilute and devalue a serious condition that actually debilitates people's lives for the sake of scoring a point on tennis forums.

reckoner wrote:

legendkillarV2 wrote:But you know for a fact that he had no anxiety issues when he was child through to adulthood despite him saying numerous times he is nervous when playing matches.

This forum needs more 'insiders' close to the tennis stars.

Again, putting words in people's mouths.

Find me one quote where I said that please?

Again swerving from discussion because your belief is based on the generic distinction of a condition.

You said

Sorry but I don't believe people suddenly develop "OCD" at age 14 and exhibit none of the usual symptoms

Disregarding the part anxiety plays in the condition. Saying that the condition cannot be onset despite the link I posted by a doctor who said otherwise.

legendkillarV2 wrote:

reckoner wrote:

legendkillarV2 wrote:But you know for a fact that he had no anxiety issues when he was child through to adulthood despite him saying numerous times he is nervous when playing matches.

This forum needs more 'insiders' close to the tennis stars.

Again, putting words in people's mouths.

Find me one quote where I said that please?

Again swerving from discussion because your belief is based on the generic distinction of a condition.

You said

Sorry but I don't believe people suddenly develop "OCD" at age 14 and exhibit none of the usual symptoms

Disregarding the part anxiety plays in the condition. Saying that the condition cannot be onset despite the link I posted by a doctor who said otherwise.

HUH? How does that show I have said that I "know for a fact that he had no anxiety issues when he was child through to adulthood"?

Anyway who on earth isn't nervous before a big match? Do all players have OCD then?

I believe players yes do exhibit symptoms of OCD.

Like players using the same ball they won a point with. Look at Federer when he started to change his racquets after the ball change, how many players now do the same thing? See that is signs of anxiety that doing such a thing might generate success like he has had.

People who wear lucky pants or kiss bald heads before a football match.

People who walk down the street and avoid pink pavements.

Handwashing like you said.


The case with Nadal is that it has been a consistent pattern of behaviour of a very long period of time.

legendkillarV2 wrote:

Anyway who on earth isn't nervous before a big match? Do all players have OCD then?

I believe players yes do exhibit symptoms of OCD.

Like players using the same ball they won a point with. Look at Federer when he started to change his racquets after the ball change, how many players now do the same thing? See that is signs of anxiety that doing such a thing might generate success like he has had.

People who wear lucky pants or kiss bald heads before a football match.

People who walk down the street and avoid pink pavements.

Handwashing like you said.


The case with Nadal is that it has been a consistent pattern of behaviour of a very long period of time.

There is a difference between superstition and OCD, do some research.

reckoner wrote:

legendkillarV2 wrote:

reckoner wrote:

legendkillarV2 wrote:But you know for a fact that he had no anxiety issues when he was child through to adulthood despite him saying numerous times he is nervous when playing matches.

This forum needs more 'insiders' close to the tennis stars.

Again, putting words in people's mouths.

Find me one quote where I said that please?

Again swerving from discussion because your belief is based on the generic distinction of a condition.

You said

Sorry but I don't believe people suddenly develop "OCD" at age 14 and exhibit none of the usual symptoms

Disregarding the part anxiety plays in the condition. Saying that the condition cannot be onset despite the link I posted by a doctor who said otherwise.

HUH? How does that show I have said that I "know for a fact that he had no anxiety issues when he was child through to adulthood"?

Right so saying he exhibited no 'usual symptoms' is not suggesting that anxiety which is a 'usual' symptom was not present? Behaviours are far more noticeable than thoughts and feelings of anxiety non?

reckoner wrote:

legendkillarV2 wrote:

Anyway who on earth isn't nervous before a big match? Do all players have OCD then?

I believe players yes do exhibit symptoms of OCD.

Like players using the same ball they won a point with. Look at Federer when he started to change his racquets after the ball change, how many players now do the same thing? See that is signs of anxiety that doing such a thing might generate success like he has had.

People who wear lucky pants or kiss bald heads before a football match.

People who walk down the street and avoid pink pavements.

Handwashing like you said.


The case with Nadal is that it has been a consistent pattern of behaviour of a very long period of time.

There is a difference between superstition and OCD, do some research.

Anxiety. Learn to read for Flip sake.

legendkillarv2 wrote:Nadal himself should seek help if it is starting to manifest on and off the court. The CBT as stated by the doctor who wrote the article.

Umpires enforcing the rule might force Nadal's hand and even have him look into treatment with the help of the ITF/ATP.

If it is OCD, I wonder if he and his team recognise it as such?

It is understandable that your mother developed it after dealing with anxiety all her life - I guess it is a kind of coping mechanism, isn't it. You control what you can control while other parts of your life are not so good?

But your poor trees!!! Good you have a sense of perspective!

Is the dastardly Toni responsible for his nephew's apparent OCD? Discuss

legendkillarV2 wrote:
Right so saying he exhibited no 'usual symptoms' is not suggesting that anxiety which is a 'usual' symptom was not present? Behaviours are far more noticeable than thoughts and feelings of anxiety non?

Oh ok I see what you're saying. I should have been clearer - I meant OBSERVABLE symptoms. In my defence the context of the discussion at the time was a youtube video so I thought that was implied.

legendkillarV2 wrote:

reckoner wrote:

legendkillarV2 wrote:

Anyway who on earth isn't nervous before a big match? Do all players have OCD then?

I believe players yes do exhibit symptoms of OCD.
Like players using the same ball they won a point with. Look at Federer when he started to change his racquets after the ball change, how many players now do the same thing? See that is signs of anxiety that doing such a thing might generate success like he has had.

People who wear lucky pants or kiss bald heads before a football match.

People who walk down the street and avoid pink pavements.

Handwashing like you said.


The case with Nadal is that it has been a consistent pattern of behaviour of a very long period of time.

There is a difference between superstition and OCD, do some research.

Anxiety. Learn to read for Flip sake.

I can read much better than some...

I was responding to the bit in bold.

time please wrote:
Is the dastardly Toni responsible for his nephew's apparent OCD? Discuss

Been covered earlier in the discussion - the answer is yes, obviously!

time please wrote:

legendkillarv2 wrote:Nadal himself should seek help if it is starting to manifest on and off the court. The CBT as stated by the doctor who wrote the article.

Umpires enforcing the rule might force Nadal's hand and even have him look into treatment with the help of the ITF/ATP.

If it is OCD, I wonder if he and his team recognise it as such?

It is understandable that your mother developed it after dealing with anxiety all her life - I guess it is a kind of coping mechanism, isn't it. You control what you can control while other parts of your life are not so good?

But your poor trees!!! Good you have a sense of perspective!

Is the dastardly Toni responsible for his nephew's apparent OCD? Discuss

Well yes you do wonder how much of Toni's training has had an effect on Rafa and his mindset make-up.

I would say if his team have acknowledged and that he has had a diagnosis then I would imagine they would keep it underwraps. You tend to read so often how athletes manage to keep such conditions and illnesses underwraps.

My trees have never grown back despite several attempts to help them reach their previous beautiful form.

Clearly it's not OCD if it is trained behaviour.

reckoner wrote:

legendkillarV2 wrote:
Right so saying he exhibited no 'usual symptoms' is not suggesting that anxiety which is a 'usual' symptom was not present? Behaviours are far more noticeable than thoughts and feelings of anxiety non?

Oh ok I see what you're saying. I should have been clearer - I meant OBSERVABLE symptoms. In my defence the context of the discussion at the time was a youtube video so I thought that was implied.

Apologies

I did post earlier in thread about 'Sports Anxiety'

I am not saying he has OCD or he doesn't.

I think what we can agree on is that certain on court behaviours he displays are within a controlled remit by where such things as 'rule' enforcement by match officials and even Nadal himself and his team taking some 'responsibility' for his conduct can maybe lead to positive changes.

Look at the FO final and the Wimbledon encounter with Nadal and the 'panic and distress' he showed. Even if the slightest thing out of his control bothers him he clearly becomes 'de-stabilised' and clearly gets thrown off his thought process. Like with Rosol receiving and moving about. Didn't know how to deal with such a fundemental thing. Because he is used to the habit of a receiver lurched and slightly swaying and instead had someone doing something different un-settled completely and clearly for me is sign of anxiety.

If it is OCD, then it's a very mild form. Given that we can only see what happens on court, does it have a negative impact on his tennis? Does it prevent him from playing normally? It's not like he has to keep going back to check his bottles are aligned between points, not does he seem to be under undue stress/anxiety on court as he attempts to control any negatively-impacting repetitive behaviour.

Should he or his team consider it necessary to treat it, it would probably relatively easy to do so.

It would be interesting to see which 'between-point' rituals would be reduced if had to keep to the 20/25sec rule and whether this would affect his performance from a mental perspective.

(Art 'Tappy' Larsen - there was susperstitious/OCD player - would tap the umpire/other player on the change-over (and talk to an imaginary bird on his shoulder betwen points). Brought on, so they say, from trauma during WW2.)

JuliusHMarx wrote:(Art 'Tappy' Larsen - there was susperstitious/OCD player - would tap the umpire/other player on the change-over (and talk to an imaginary bird on his shoulder betwen points). Brought on, so they say, from trauma during WW2.)

aye, Jim lad!

legendkillarV2 wrote:Apologies

I did post earlier in thread about 'Sports Anxiety'

I am not saying he has OCD or he doesn't.

I think what we can agree on is that certain on court behaviours he displays are within a controlled remit by where such things as 'rule' enforcement by match officials and even Nadal himself and his team taking some 'responsibility' for his conduct can maybe lead to positive changes.

Look at the FO final and the Wimbledon encounter with Nadal and the 'panic and distress' he showed. Even if the slightest thing out of his control bothers him he clearly becomes 'de-stabilised' and clearly gets thrown off his thought process. Like with Rosol receiving and moving about. Didn't know how to deal with such a fundemental thing. Because he is used to the habit of a receiver lurched and slightly swaying and instead had someone doing something different un-settled completely and clearly for me is sign of anxiety.

No worries lkv2! I don't mind a bit of heated discussion!

Yeah he displays anxiety when losing, but that ain't OCD in my book!

time please wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:(Art 'Tappy' Larsen - there was susperstitious/OCD player - would tap the umpire/other player on the change-over (and talk to an imaginary bird on his shoulder betwen points). Brought on, so they say, from trauma during WW2.)

aye, Jim lad!

Sorry to be all serious but the test to determine whether this is indeed OCD is whether Larsen did this in his life off the court as well.

Only on Mondays!

That will teach me not to google first:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_Larsen

I was convinced you were joking Julius

Every player has a pre-point routine. They'd be mad not to - it helps you to settle down and concentrate and remind you that you are in the zone.

Nadal is no different to anyone else in that respect. His is just a bit longer than many - his routine buys him a bit more time which helps him recover from dashing around like a madman and helps settle a rythmn of play that suits him vs. opponents who like to play quicker. I'd need powerful evidence to believe that is a coincidence. My preferred view is that if a faster pre-point routine suited this famously controlling man he'd be able to accommodate one (I am not talking about between ends here).

He dislikes being pushed out of his comfort zone - many people are like that. So long as his opponent is acting lawfully I like seeing him having to deal with the medecine he doles out to others.

He may have OCD he may not - since none of us have treated him as our patient we are in no position to diagnose it or divine where on the OCD spectrum he may lie. And frankly I am not interested in whether he does or he does not - I am interested in the rules being adhered to. If OCD truly means he can't adhere to the rules of tennis I would invite him to try another sport.

Well he is raring to go for Rio apparently. Today's offering from the eminence grise that is Toni Nadal:

http://www.livetennisguide.com/2012/07/24/toni-nadal-rafael-nadal-will-return-back-at-rio-de-janeiro-olympics/

No need to get our collective knickers in a twist then about career shortening injuries

That shall be interesting TP.

Not sure Nadal would have the advantage. Bellucci, Del Potro and Monaco you would think would have to start as favourites as Nadal hasn't played much on the South American courts on except in DC ties.

Yet!

What I noticed from what Toni said as reported in that article is that Nadal is giving Canada TMS a miss this year and playing only Cincinnati before the USO, which is reputed to be the fastest outdoors TMS tournament and the one at which he has the worst record.

Do you think this is the definitive statement now barry?

Guess Roger's Cup is too close to the Olympics.

He will need all his recuperative powers and more to first test the knee/unspecified limb/ (fill in blank ) in competition on the hot, fast hard courts of Cincinnati.

time please wrote:Do you think this is the definitive statement now barry?

Guess Roger's Cup is too close to the Olympics.

He will need all his recuperative powers and more to first test the knee/unspecified limb/ (fill in blank ) in competition on the hot, fast hard courts of Cincinnati.

Put it like this - after that I really don't see Nadal playing in Canada, but of course it's always possible that he won't feel fit enough for Cincinnati. Don't forget - Nadal has confunded those who think he's had it before, and he could come back refreshed to Cincinnati and win it for the first time.

Oh I'm sure Team Nadal are really going hard for the US Open. There seems little point otherwise and better to rest malfunctioning limb (wherever it is!)

I think I need to do a bit more suspending of disbelief