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World Cup Qualifiers Thread, 7th and 8th September

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Kay Fabe
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Post by Duty281 Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:02 pm

First topic message reminder :

Russia v Northern Ireland (16:00)
Kazakhstan v Republic of Ireland (17:00)
Moldova v England (19:45)
Wales v Belgium (19:45)
Scotland v Serbia (15:00, Saturday)


Predictions:

Russia 3-1 NI
Kazakhstan 0-3 ROI
Moldova 0-4 England
Wales 1-3 Belgium
Scotland 1-1 Serbia

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Post by Duty281 Sun Sep 09, 2012 11:08 am

Liam wrote:Argentina overrated? if they had a decent manager they would be favourites for the world cup, i would make them favourites for the world cup in brazil. I mean, look at the players they have:

-Messi
-Aguero
-Higuain
-Di Maria
-Banega
-Tevez


The list goes on. England have a decent side and I fully expect them to qualify and win their group. However, for me, they won't get further than the 1/4 finals because they simply haven't got the players. Its when you see they are 3rd in the world that you can simply laugh at the fifa world rankings.

Poor defence, dodgy midfield, there's a reason why Germany gave the Argies a bigger battering in 2010 than they did to us.

Thomond wrote:No offence to you Duty but people like you are one of the reasons why England will not become a power in soccer for a long time to come. You're exactly like people were with Trap before the Euros. Putting your fingers over your ears and ignoring blatant problems that exist.

Wrote this a while back and I expect it to cause controversy, but the truth hurts. http://v2journal.com/england-where-next.html

Your point about England having an easy European Championship Group is rubbish. France, top 15 team with a huge unbeaten record going into Euro 2012. Sweden, dangerous top 30 side. Ukraine, host nation. And England did so badly at Euro 2012 that they drew 0-0 with the second best team in Europe and shut out a team who the Germans couldn't shut out.

mystiroakey wrote:liam your another one that doesnt get the point of rankings or how and why they are worled the way they are.

England are rankied 3rd because they have had the 3rd best win,draw loss record over other teams in a time line- It does not however mean they will come 3rd in every cup to come...

Exactly right Mysti, so many people fail to get their heads around it.

Liam wrote:
mystiroakey wrote:
Liam wrote:
mystiroakey wrote:Not sure I have a clue what you are on about liam. You can try your hardest to forget about results and stats bad wins and draws. But it just makes you sound bitter.

No the fact is it goes round in circles with england fans. cruise the group, qualify for the world cup, ebeyone get's exited and thinks they have a chance, even though at least 6 teams are streets are ahead of you. Then at the end of it all, you complain, say what everyone has been saying for the lead up to a major comp, then say you want a change in manager, heard it all before..

And what does this bother you.off course fans must believe. Why wouldn't they. Do you think Welsh rugby fans are any different. Wgats the beef pal?

Absolutely, its what fans do. Every year I think Wales will beat the AB's, yet we get done good and proper. Just when I see England fans getting a bit arrogant and a bit ahead of themselves, it's nice to remind them of the truths. I remember when O was sdaying that the Belgium performance was terrible, but because England won it was alright, because England won. Yet when it comes to the proper sides, who are apparanlty overrated, they get their ass*es handed to them. Just an opinion.

I can't remember the last time England got their asses handed to them.

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Post by RinoGattuso Sun Sep 09, 2012 11:32 am

Duty281 wrote:I can't remember the last time England got their asses handed to them.

2010 vs Germany

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Post by Duty281 Sun Sep 09, 2012 11:36 am

#HEEL wrote:
Duty281 wrote:I can't remember the last time England got their asses handed to them.

2010 vs Germany

Maybe I should have said the last time England legitimately had their asses handed to them. All I remember about 2010 v Germany was that it should have been 2-2 after 38 minutes. It wasn't, and England got caught on the break.

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Post by mystiroakey Sun Sep 09, 2012 11:58 am

We'll done lads for actually debating again. I was beginning to forget where I was for a minute..

Roll on Ukraine that's all I have to say. The first decent test of this campaign. And good look to the rest of the British isles

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Post by Thomond Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:37 pm

You think what you want Duty, but England will never be successful unless they make changes. An unbeaten record going into the Euros matters jack. Ireland were unbeaten in 20 games going into the Euros, did that make Ireland great? Sweden, half decent. Host Nation thing is played out, the only side England weren't favourites over was the France game.


If Ukraine are a decent test to this England side than all I will say is that you have not set the bar too high.

Will lay out the article below for those who want to read it. Not a cut at England, you've seen how much I rate Ireland, our coaches and the FAI!

England got through an average qualifying group and one of the easier tournament groups.

They're a better version of Greece really, decent defensively, struggle to retain possession but can score goals when they play it on the deck and don't hit idiotic passes.

I always said they would be caught out against a better side, they don't hold onto the ball for long enough, and aren't clinical enough to take their opportunities when presented to them. Rooney will probably be a scapegoat, does he deserve it? Yes and no, he has been very poor but the quality of ball he is getting is substandard. Parker is not doing what most would consider the job of a defensive midfielder. Break up the play and get moves started . Pirlo plays the defensive role that few others can, he is decent in defence but his passing is exemplary. Xabi Alonso is probably the closest to him in that regard.

In defence, I think taking Terry over Rio was a big call. I didn't agree with it and the whole could Rio handle the games was a bit of a cop out (he played 6 games in 20 odd days last year, it was a similar time period compared to the Euros anyway). Terry is not incredibly quick and he got caught napping last night when marking Balotelli, who himself isn't fast. He recovered well at times but shouldn't have been caught out. The same could be said for Glen Johnson over the tournament.

Some of the problem is in the underage setup, it's similar in Ireland. The big, strong kids tend to get picked over the smaller skillful guys. You have argumentative parents on the sideline, demanding a lot of the kids and the coaches and the coach is almost forced to get a result, the big lad who can hoof the ball into the net from 30 yards out will get picked over the kid who can tuck it away from 12.


I think there needs to be a change in emphasis in the underage system in Ireland and the UK, I don't think you can suddenly make us into a team like Spain, but you can change things and do it quickly. A change in philosophy can also occur pretty instantly, something which will cheer up Irish rugby fans. In 2000, Germany were knocked out of the group stages of Euro 2000, their team was derided yet they managed to scrape it together to reach the final of the World Cup. Under Rudi Voller they adapted somewhat but it was under Jurgen Klinsmann where things really changed.
Germany were due to host the World Cup in 2006, Klinsmann took over after another poor campaign in the 2004 Euros. He adopted a youth movement, in Germany along with his assistants Oliver Bierhoff and Joachim Low. They quickly changed the traditional thinking in Germany, and adopted an approach more like the Netherlands i.e. attack, attack, attack!
They built a team around several young guns, the likes of Philipp Lahm, the attacking full back from Bayern Munich, Bastian Schiweinsteiger, the attacking midfielder/Winger now turned defensive midfielder.

Klinsmann stepped down after the World Cup but it was clear he had started something. On appointment, he consulted with the DFB (German equivalent of the FA) and while the DFB were putting more emphasis into their underage system after their disastrous Euro 2000 campaign, Klinsmann developed a collective way to raise the German wunderkinds.

A lot of the free-flowing style we now associate with the Germans began under Klinsmann. As important, however, was the Germans were now being taught how to play like this. The "Extended-Talent Promotion Programme" was opened in 2002 by the DFB.

The DFB had the co-operation of Bundesliga clubs, and in the programme's first year, over 22,000 teenagers received training from 1200 coaches in nearly 400 camps across the country. A mere 7 years later, the programme was beginning to bear fruit. In the summer of 2009, Germany captured the U-19 and U-21 European Championship titles, the latter was scooped after a 4-0 hammering of the English orchestrated by one Mesut Ozil. Germany is home to thousands of people from different ethnicities and different backgrounds. This started primarily in the 60's and 70's when people known as "guest workers" came to Germany.

While their children may not have felt "German" enough to take to the football pitches, their grandchildren certainly did. The multicultural society was embraced, and this somewhat reflects on the side today. The likes of Lukas Podolski, Mesut Ozil, Jerome Boateng, Sami Khedira and Miroslav Klose were born outside of Germany. In some ways it shows Germany's willingness to embrace other countries and other cultures.


I would say that the current love for Germany and their fluid style is down to one man, Klinsmann. Yet the DFB with the consent and co-operation of the clubs in the Bundesliga were willing to co-operate for a better national team. The stumbling block in England developing their youth will be the Premier League which at times shows little interest in the National team. There are certainly things for England to be positive about, but they need to finally make the push towards major youth development or they and Ireland will not compete at the top table of international football. The FA have procrastinated the building of a youth development centre like the French have in Clarefontaine. If they want to make serious progress, it might be time to do so.

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Post by Duty281 Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:00 pm

To those that say England are second-rate, in the second-tier of international football and don't deserve to be ranked 3rd in the World, who would you bet on to beat England? Let's look at the FIFA Rankings:

1) Spain - Probably better although England's style may cause them problems.
2) Germany - England have a better head-to-head record against the Germans.
4) Portugal - Beat us in 2000 but England were robbed in both '04 and '06. I would back England to beat them if we played today.
5) Uruguay - Overrated.
6) Italy - Couldn't beat us at Euro 2012, lost to us in a friendly.
7) Argentina - England have a better head-to-head record against the Argentines.
8) Netherlands - Dodgy defence. Worse than England at Euro 2012.
9) Croatia - 4-1 and 5-1.
10) Denmark - England are just better.
11) Greece - Read above.
12) Brazil - Would probably beat England.
13) Russia - See 10.
14) Chile - See above.
15) France - Couldn't beat England at Euro 2012.

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Post by Ent Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:10 pm

I've never seen the point in bigging up a national side - the proof is in the tournament results.

I mean who cares if you have a better head to head against Germany, or we're 'robbed' 8 years ago - these sides constantly get further in the major tournaments.

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Post by Thomond Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:10 pm

Some of that is your opinion and some of it is also a load of rubbish. What does England's overall record v Germany and Argentina have to do with the better team now? Italy, may have been on penalties but one of the most one sided games I have seen in the knockout stages of a mjor championship in any sport.


England's style causing Spain problems? Laugh What would Spain do with nearly 60% possession against England? Score at least a goal I would bet.

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Post by Ent Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:14 pm

Thom duty is v optimistic/deluded about England, as seen in the euro threads- id take it with a pinch of salt.

I mean a side who have won the last 3 major tournaments are probably better than a side who made 1/4s, last 16 and didn't qualify in the last 3 tournaments.

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Post by Crimey Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:17 pm

I just think balance is needed really, people either say England are awful and wouldn't beat most other top nations, or England are the best and would probably beat every other top nation.

The truth is that England are capable, on their day, of beating any of the top nations, I would say they don't deserve to be top 3, but England are probably a top 10 level international side.

Against teams like Italy, France, Portugal, Uruguay I think England could fancy their chances of a good result, and if those matches were played 100 times, hypothetically speaking, it'd probably end up about 50/50 between the two sides.

Spain, Brazil and probably Germany are still a step up.

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Post by Duty281 Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:19 pm

Ent wrote:I've never seen the point in bigging up a national side - the proof is in the tournament results.

I mean who cares if you have a better head to head against Germany, or we're 'robbed' 8 years ago - these sides constantly get further in the major tournaments.

England are just unlucky or robbed at major tournaments. I mean:

1970 - Gordon Banks suspiciously gets food poisoning right before the Quarter-Final.
1986 - England knocked out by 'Hand of God'.
1990 - Made the semi-final and lost on a lottery. Also hit the woodwork twice after being the better team.
1996 - Made the semi-final and lost on a lottery. Gazza was one inch away from putting England in the final.
1998 - Made the last-16 and lost on a lottery. England also had a clear goal disallowed.
2002 - Made the Quarter-Final and were edged out 2-1 by the best team in the World. If we had a p**s easy draw like the Germans, we would have made the Final.
2004 - Made the Quarter-Final and lost on a lottery. Wayne Rooney became injured during the game and another clear goal was disallowed for England.
2006 - Anti-English bias by FIFA at it's best. Absolutely robbed in the Quarters before losing on a lottery.
2010 - Robbed of yet another clear England goal.
2012 - Made the quarters and lost on a lottery. This was despite being injury-ravaged and having completely new coaching staff just 6 weeks before the Euros.

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Post by Duty281 Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:21 pm

Thomond wrote:Some of that is your opinion and some of it is also a load of rubbish. What does England's overall record v Germany and Argentina have to do with the better team now? Italy, may have been on penalties but one of the most one sided games I have seen in the knockout stages of a mjor championship in any sport.


England's style causing Spain problems? Laugh What would Spain do with nearly 60% possession against England? Score at least a goal I would bet.

Last competitive meeting and the last friendly between England and Argentina were won by England. England have beaten Germany 3 times this century. England and Italy wasn't that one-sided, England still had several chances. And yes, England's style would cause Spain problems as seen in Spain v England 2011.

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Post by Guest Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:56 pm

England have had their share of luck also though Duty. Remember Spain's ruled out goal in Euro 96?

Swings and roundabouts.

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Post by Kay Fabe Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:15 pm

England and Italy wasn't that one-sided, England still had several chances

You're right in that England still had chances, still you'd expect a team ranked so highly to have a couple of chances in 120 minutes, however its extremely inaccurate to say it wasn't one sided, it was an extremely one-sided game

Italy had 31 shots (18 on target) to England's 8 shots (4 on target) and had 63% of possession to England's 37%

Italy averaged a shot just under every 3 minutes while England on averaged could only muster 1 ever 15 minutes

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Post by Ent Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:23 pm

You know it can't be all down to bad luck doing nothing for 40+ years- lets face it you are suggesting clearly elbowing goal keepers in the face being given as a foul is some how robbery?

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Post by Kay Fabe Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:29 pm

Yeah that's very true, penalty kicks aren't a lottery, never have been never will be, they're a mixture skill of technique and mental toughness, on far to many occassions England have failed at that stage, its not down to luck, once or twice maybe, but to constantly lose that way isn't, anyone who thinks that way is part of the problem

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Post by Duty281 Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:07 pm

Ent wrote:You know it can't be all down to bad luck doing nothing for 40+ years- lets face it you are suggesting clearly elbowing goal keepers in the face being given as a foul is some how robbery?

No I'm suggesting an accidental elbow by Shearer given as a foul is a robbery. If it was deliberate then surely the referee would have sent Shearer off but he didn't.

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Post by mystiroakey Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:32 pm

the-gaffer wrote:Yeah that's very true, penalty kicks aren't a lottery, never have been never will be, they're a mixture skill of technique and mental toughness, on far to many occassions England have failed at that stage, its not down to luck, once or twice maybe, but to constantly lose that way isn't, anyone who thinks that way is part of the problem

What is this problem you are talking about.

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Post by mystiroakey Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:53 pm

On to the england italy match. Pirlo outclassed us. However we set up in a way that will lose possesion . People spouting stats all the time miss the point and truth of the game. England played a positional game. We didnt try to win the ball back. We ran back to our positions and defended deep. We were allways gonna give away shots and possesion. However this isnt pretty and people that want a pop will yuse it to have a pop. The fact is this gameplan almost paid off and we pushed the game to pen kicks(offcourse we could have had more possesion and more chances - but would we have limited there chances to shots from miles out, would we have taken the game to pens????). So fair play hodgson. Also double fair play to him he hasnt stuck with that approach in this new campaign - our players have hassled the opposition in there half and defended as soon as the opposition has the ball(this is the only way to play and spains biggest plus). Yes lets not get two exited , one game was a friendly(al beit v italy) and the other was a very weak team. But at least it shows that Hodgson knows what he is doing and his tactics so far have been spot on

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Post by GG Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:26 pm

Duty281 wrote:To those that say England are second-rate, in the second-tier of international football and don't deserve to be ranked 3rd in the World, who would you bet on to beat England? Let's look at the FIFA Rankings:

1) Spain - Probably better although England's style may cause them problems.
2) Germany - England have a better head-to-head record against the Germans.
4) Portugal - Beat us in 2000 but England were robbed in both '04 and '06. I would back England to beat them if we played today.
5) Uruguay - Overrated.
6) Italy - Couldn't beat us at Euro 2012, lost to us in a friendly.
7) Argentina - England have a better head-to-head record against the Argentines.
8) Netherlands - Dodgy defence. Worse than England at Euro 2012.
9) Croatia - 4-1 and 5-1.
10) Denmark - England are just better.
11) Greece - Read above.
12) Brazil - Would probably beat England.
13) Russia - See 10.
14) Chile - See above.
15) France - Couldn't beat England at Euro 2012.

Oh my god. Laugh

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Post by Thomond Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:30 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Thomond wrote:Some of that is your opinion and some of it is also a load of rubbish. What does England's overall record v Germany and Argentina have to do with the better team now? Italy, may have been on penalties but one of the most one sided games I have seen in the knockout stages of a mjor championship in any sport.


England's style causing Spain problems? Laugh What would Spain do with nearly 60% possession against England? Score at least a goal I would bet.

Last competitive meeting and the last friendly between England and Argentina were won by England. England have beaten Germany 3 times this century. England and Italy wasn't that one-sided, England still had several chances. And yes, England's style would cause Spain problems as seen in Spain v England 2011.


Spain drew with Costa Rica in a friendly. I think that means that Costa Rica would beat Italy and would win the Euros if they could play in it? Don't you agree?

Ireland became the first non home nations side to beat England at home in 1949. I think that means we could beat them in Wembley now.

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Post by Ent Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:10 am

Duty281 wrote:
Ent wrote:You know it can't be all down to bad luck doing nothing for 40+ years- lets face it you are suggesting clearly elbowing goal keepers in the face being given as a foul is some how robbery?

No I'm suggesting an accidental elbow by Shearer given as a foul is a robbery. If it was deliberate then surely the referee would have sent Shearer off but he didn't.

Who knows what the referee was thinking, shearer made a career out of 'accidentally' elbowing people (and occasionally kicking them in the face).

Fouls called correctly aren't robberies! Having a goal given that didn't cross the line is!!

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